Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV, Chapter XXV and Chapter XXVI.
© Copyright 2019 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Oh…and one more thing Harold, since you are new here and you aren’t up to speed on all of my idiosyncrasies, my comment that most of my guns would get me long prison sentences…very long ones in your country wasn’t a slam on Canada.
If I would have been “God For a Day” on December 14, 2012, I would have made every gun and gun accessory in this nation disappear in an instant. And then I would have allowed people to start buying guns the next day based on Canada’s common sense gun laws.
It is absolutely INSANE that I can legally own the type guns and accessories that I do,…absolutely fucking INSANE. And nobody can convince me otherwise because I have handled, owned, and shot all kinds of guns since a very early age.
In fact, since my mother was raised in the Wild, Wild Old West, I handled, owned, and shot all kinds of guns at an age I had absolutely no business handling, owning and shooting those guns at that age with the level of training I had, which was nonexistent.
I know what kind of guns me and everybody else needs for every reason you can think of from putting down a Zombie Apocalypse, Alien Invasion or another four years of President Aberration. And I would not need most of the guns I own to do any of that. I just like guns because I am a GUN NUT! But just because I am a GUN NUT, doesn’t mean I should be able to own most of the guns I do. Did I mention it is INSANE?
Okay…I put myself on a well deserved “time out” yesterday because I was operating with even fewer filters than I normally do, and apparently I still am. So….I am going back on my “time out”, so that you and Bill, whoever the fuck Bill is (in every jest there is a little truth) can get some of the oxygen I normally hog on this thread and maybe we can finally get some new fucking ideas while we are waiting for Joy to shit or get off the pot?!!!!
But…if she is waiting for Holly or Alan to help us…WE ARE OFFICIALLY FUCKED!
Reply to Harold post on June 26, 2019 at 11:34 pm
>> Harold asked…
>>
>> I don’t know all the acronyms. What does GTS stand for?
GTS stands for “Google That Shit”.
Most religion is about control of the masses–a few do the research and see the situation. Fifty two scholars got around to the King James Version that he had commanded–translated Hebrew and Greek writing–66 books of the Old and New Testament, threw out some books they figured to be fables and gave you what they believed to be the word of God. It has been re translated and revised and people continue to argue over the Greek and ancient languages and what they mean and whether the thing was properly translated. In the Catholic Bible there are 73 recognized books and some organizations have up to 80.
It will save you much time to know that you are in good form if you know right from wrong and do your best to walk the straight and narrow. There are no set proofs of anything but I like the idea of Confession and go on with life in the straight and narrow or spend a hell of a lot of time in the confession booth. It is not a sin to have yourself a Guinness in the process.
Otherwise Karma will take its course and there is always a possibility of a visit from the Leprechaun.
But the thing I was interested in is a legal matter–something God doesn’t give a shit about since much of it is gobbledygook. Maybe Gary or WTKTT would know, if a person has knowledge of criminal activity and withholds that information from the authorities, is that a criminal offense? If so there are a bunch of those hanging around.
what happened at your confession that one time when the priest said “ok” – ….what was it…that was funny, Charlie.
Guess I should add that but not funny–I was down in Viejo Casas Grandes, Chih. getting married in an old Catholic Church that still had the bullet pock marks from the Pancho Villa days in the adobe outside Everyone wore sombreros except me, but part of the ceremony to mention requires first a confession. Att that time I did not speak much Spanish and that Priest did not understand English–anyhow I kept on with my sins for some time until he reached his had around the curtain and said esta bien no mas por favor. I got that and shut up.
That’s an excellent question in that last paragraph, Charlie. I’d like to know the answer to that one too! I think they call that being an accessory to a crime…
It might be deemed accessory after the fact…or it might be obstruction of justice, I hope someone else weighs in. I don’t know American law.
Oh…and one more thing Harold. If you ask any lawyer that question, they would answer it like every lawyer answers every question…it depends.
But in general…and for our purposes here and based on what your question is probably based on…the answer is…NO!
Now…really quickly, because my filters still aren’t working…filters, what fucking filters? There are some people and some circumstances where the answer to that question would be…YES.
But in general, those situations have to do child endangerment, sexual abuse or exploitation, suicide or eminent grave bodily injury or death to someone and the duty to inform generally lies with people who are licensed professionals, such as doctors, nurses, therapists, psychiatrists, psychologists, and Officers Of The Court, which includes every lawyer that has passed the bar and holds a law license.
But for Tom, Dick, Harry and Sally, pertaining to crimes X, Y, and Z…no.
Disclaimer; I am not, nor have I ever been a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night or any other night since I retired in 2006. Nor have I ever even played any kind of lawyer or other legal professional on TV or in the movies…so don’t quote me on that.
Whoops…just one more because I just saw this and I asked you yesterday if you had seen the photo of the 2 year old who had drowned in the Rio Grande because President Aberration ordered the CBP to violate U.S. Law.
I don’t know all U.S. laws…but I know those, and President Aberration ordered government officials to break them. It was CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE! DEAL WITH IT!
So…just in case you haven’t seen it. Here is a drawing of that photo.
WARNING…THIS DRAWING REFLECTS THE TRUTH, WHICH MANY PEOPLE JUST CAN’T HANDLE!
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/canadian-artist-fired-after-viral-trump-cartoon-n1025071
https://mobile.twitter.com/deAdder/status/1143931384265883650?
Yes Gary, I did see the ACTUAL footage of the father and child on Canadian news. (But not the cartoon).
That is just heartbreaking. I just don’t have the words…
Harold, American law is back to the old West ways–Judge Roy Bean where the cowboy that killed the Chinaman was let off because Judge Roy could not find in his books where it was against the law to kill a Chinaman. However upon searching the body of the Chinaman a $20 gold piece was found whereupon Judge Roy Bean fined the Chinaman $20 for littering the street.
There is a U Tube take on a Canadian Girl that wound up in jail because of greed involving the legal system. Because of the Judge Roy Bean justice system came under fire from a bunch of Canadians and I hope a number of Americans, the girl was refunded her fine, although I heard no apologies.
However, the overshoot of authority has turned back on the system and people are demanding a change. But it is taking the masses to do the job and it truly is not only blacks that have been abused, it is the general population as well. But I understand that Canada is having its problems as well.
Policing is supposed to protect first amendment rights of freedom of speech, religion, and media. and even the fourth amendment of unlawful search and seizures. The Bush clan got rid of all those rights by instilling the Patriot Act under the pretense of terrorism.
Now as I was told by a Border Patrol that had pulled me over with his bubble gum machine, “We can stop you for any reason we want and search if we want”. The two of them did a cursory look into my truck except I had two big Huskies and a bull dog that would have killed their German Shephard had they opened the door. Of course they would have opened fire on my dogs and maybe me too.
I did call their supervisor and was told they try to lay off locals. But it goes to show that authority can go to jack boot Nazi intentions pretty quickly–few men can handle authority properly in a free society–well what was a free society.
The Covid thing is a farce to a big degree–It robbed the country and put it in an economic bind–I see the markets are dropping fast and 45.5 million people are on unemployment–plenty of businesses are closing out permanently and only restaurants are coming back–Well you might get a job flipping burgers–but manufacturing jobs are down the drain.
It is known that if you have had a flu shot you will test positive for the Covid thing. And Fauci and others are trying to get it required for everyone to have a test. So many false positives and they are using fear to put people under hose arrest. Some dumb ass is presenting HR6666 which will require home visits to see if you have a cough or fever so you will be quarantined. So this is going a bit too far, yet one has to wonder what the real purpose of this shenanigan is.
The next one is the gain of function virus created by a Harvard –here is a science article:
CDC researchers and their colleagues successfully reconstructed the influenza virus that caused the 1918-19 flu pandemic, which killed as many as 50 million people worldwide. A report of their work, “Characterization of the Reconstructed 1918 Spanish Influenza Pandemic Virusexternal icon,” was published in the October 7, 2005 issue of Science.
So this virulent Spanish Flu was created also with gain of function for military purposes–insertion of bits of HIV DNA just as the Covid 19 was improved by taking the SARS virus that killed so many. SARS was not so virulent so gain of function was accomplished by a Chinese doctor in 2015 under approval of Fauchi at our own level 3 lab in Chapil Hill, NC. He allowed it even though it was illegal to do at the time. So our federal monies and grants from China financed the doctor and after success she returned to Wuhan, China and was working there when this outbreak happened. These are facts–Dr. Buttar and many other Doctors have verified this, it is written in Medical Journals for her success, and yet you hear nothing about it on our false Media.
So who is to blame for the gain of function Covid 19? I would call Fauchi a greater killer than Marsh, but apparently the military and others were expecting the gain of function.
The next thing was that revival of the Spanish Flu–why on earth would you want to dig up a frozen cadaver and re create something and even give it gain of function, that had killed millions–not just of the elderly but all the working classes from teenagers to the elderly. (The elderly mostly were not affected with Spanish Flu.)
I have to believe there are unseen forces promoting such insane and insidious acts.
I wonder how serious these scientists and world elite are about the need to reduce populations since they believe by 2030 if it does not happen a threshold will happen where the world will become uninhabitable for human life.
I do know one thing, I agree with Robert Kennedy Jr. –vaccines are dangerous and they use toxic ingredients. He just won a lawsuit against the government–no vaccine for thirty years has ever been tested before being used. And why should they when you can not sue the vaccine manufacturers and providers. You can only sue the government–and you wonder why you have 1000 times as many autistic kids in recent years since vaccines are now required even for new born babies? But Gates and Fauchi and World Health Organization are hell bent on vaccinating the world–and you can get your free flu shot–a good promotion and then you can test positive for Covid 19.
Gates also agrees that there needs to be something done about overpopulation–why he promoted methods to sterilize people in Africa and India. Maybe his vaccines will help with the population problem as well.
5 -G is another thing that might help as well–but I think it is more like Uranium mining where radiation generally takes ten years or more to start affecting you–my own cancers have started evolving after ten years–the rest of my family has no cancers. But 5-G can be turned up, where Uranium Mining had hot spots but not where it could be made to burn your skin as the Police and Army have used to disperse crowds. The range of 5-G includes up to 300GHZ so the 93GHZ used to disperse crowds is quite feasible, but there are all kinds of other effects as well–by mixing frequencies the 5-G operators could have you hearing voices, being depressed or confused as they did in Iraq.
So the world is getting interesting–and you hope that Big Brother stays on the gentle side–we do not want to anger the Giant with a murderous attitude.
So my Dad, Henry Gilligan, was a World War 1 veteran–in fact a machine gunner that laid in the trenches and mud–He told me that the most important thing was your sleeping board–if someone stole it, you slept directly in the mud–He said it rained all the time he served.
But his description of the weeks on ship going over to fight the Germans will never leave my memory. On that ship, he said he helped stack bodies like cord wood there were so many deaths of young soldiers from the Spanish Flu. I think because of his very young age, he did not get it–that and the Captain warned him not to get a shot–the Captain has said he observed that people getting a shot were dead within three days. The Captain believed the German descendant doctors were working for the German side But the Spanish flue involved mostly people in the age bracket of 20 to 40 years of age–my Dad was 15 and had to state he was 17 when he enlisted. Those days they needed bodies–and as I was told when drafted–take care of the equipment–we can get another asshole, but equipment is hard to come by.
So who knows what the new Spanish Flu virus gain of function will affect if it gets loose. Maybe the scientists that recreated it with HIV DNA fragments and spicing techniques to give it more potency could tell us–but fake media is not about to make an issue of it ===they have everyone scared enough with their Covid 19 reports.
I say do not worry too much, one of the Gods is bound to fuck up the best laid plans, although it is known that the Old Testament God turned out genocidal in a few instances and even got rid of the whole of mankind with a hell of a flood. And some say where men used to live 1000 years or more, that even was cut short to about a century.
Those that have had near death experiences say it is not so bad–I had a couple, one was good but the second one was going down a tunnel–but once I got there, I think it only took a few seconds–then the revival was painful as all get out. The tube about the diameter of a magic marker that must be inserted into the lung between the ribs to keep it inflated was even more painful the 12 guage shot gun hole in my back–and I do still feel that shattered clavicle and those shot scattered about my rig cage. Yet I can tell you this life I live is fine and I am enjoying a nice lightening storm right now after doing yard work all morning.
One thing is certain–life is finite-mostly a fast illusion caused by perceptions–It is good to get beyond the perceptions–mostly the BS we are fed from religion, so called experts and authorities, and parents that were fooled by their parents and so on down the line. There are some truth Sayers but in the final it comes to the one we see in the mirror–don’t look for truth in Politics or Religion.
As always–my own ideas and opinion–perceptions as well.
sláinte pronounced SLAHN-chə–(Good Health)–I added the Irish pronunciation because the Queen would fuck up the Irish word as it is written.
Woodsman,
How about finishing my train of thought, ey.
So then, the supposition was that the other HS Crew down below lit off the drainage below them because – like the YH Fire and the GMHS in the black – they thought these guys were in the black
RTS,
If you’re referring to the parallels between the Loop & Yarnell Hill, then yes. They both had adjoining forces constructing firelines with dozers below their position. A common tactic being a dozer push to burn off of. Adjoining forces were under the belief the crews above were in a safe location but in both fires, the crews ending hiking into the drainage the burnout would traverse to their actual respective locations, killing them…with unintentional “friendly fire.”
The Loop fire chain of events came to me in my research just last week! See my post below.
Mann Gulch – friendly fire. Thanks to Ted Putnam.
Each instance employed tactics of a cover-up by the powers that be in the official reports after the fact. That’s why we have to spend all of this time and energy fleshing out the truth. Our job (self-appointed) is the determine the whole truth in order to save lives.
Woodsman,
Read my post link below to your “friendly fire” question
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvii-here/#comment-479502 )
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-479512u
A new chapter
It’s time I join the conversation.. I hope I can help
Welcome, Downhillndirect. How do you think you can help the effort for truth? Thanks for coming here.
DHND,
I know for a fact that you can help Brother. Welcome
Reply to Downhillndirect post on June 28, 2019 at 9:32 pm
>> Downhillndirect said…
>>
>> It’s time I join the conversation.. I hope I can help
Welcome!
Don’t be afraid to just ‘jump in’ anywhere if you have something to ask or say… even if a top level comment wasn’t directed at you.
This isn’t a ‘social media’ site with ‘isolated threads’ and we are all known to ‘jump in’ just about anywhere, at any time.
Please NOTE, however, that you arrived at moment when the current CHAPTER of comments is ENDING… and a NEW CHAPTER has just been started.
This current CHAPTER XVII ( 27 ) filled up pretty fast because a lot of new evidence came to light in the last few weeks.
That happens.
As Joy Collura just pointed out above… the new Chapter XVIII ( Chapter 28 ) is HERE…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/
Welcome Downhillndirect, everyone here is very supportive and helpful.
Harold,
You stated “I began a search and quickly found the SAIT report, which left me totally unsatisfied, and I knew at that point there was a cover-up.”
What was / were the thing(s), factor(s), whatever, that convinced you there was a cover-up by the SAIT after reading the SAIR?
Hi Robert, I will get back to you as soon as I can, it’s 3:00 am here and I’m exhausted. I want to respond properly, so I’ll try later.
gary said:
Gary Olson says
JUNE 28, 2019 AT 5:23 PM
Oh, and FYI Harold…Joy is ALWAYS on the verge of doing something BIG!
So…don’t hold your breath until she does because you know…you will die
my reply-
maybe that is HOW you got in the spot you are in from holding your breath all those times…
Part of the BIG announcement does require Holly and Alan to speak up too-
so hopefully they know I do know their areas of that day thanks to other FFs…but only fair they join in–
Holly? Oh fuck me…we are done for.And Alan, he is just about the biggest bitch in this story…isn’t he? What did I miss?
Tenacity-
I just lack tenacity or umph this week-
I had someone else do the post for what i wanted to do for this week.
I am relying on another to help me carry the torch
They only did 1 and 2 of the 3 posts-
I will read hem soon- bed time for me.
Been sleeping a lot this week.
Pain scale is a bit much- so sleep helps not to feel it.
I just need to r and r- but I did state I would type before I went to sleep on this recent fire and as well another “leak” on the YHFire-
I mean Troy Steinbrink is going to be addressed in D.C. with what I have – I not only tried to direct fact check with him but Sara L Sullivan sent me a third party form and so I got to directly reach out to him to ask him to sign their legal documents.
I will also be showing Alan Sinclair’s photo from then…maybe they can help me understand why he was where he was…BECAUSE it is not yet found on John MacLean’s site but maybe it will be shown in their upcoming book(s)…I say books because it looks like the way they fight fires nowadays we can start a series…
Thank you for all the WF/FFs accounts anonymous – you are the best. It’s all coming to a wrap the next few days then the next few weeks….as for the ones I have been here always and you could have been anonymous too but you followed a different path – there is still time if you want your name out just direct reach me and we can figure a way even for Troy- there is still some time left – so what your name is here – I can still work your account in anonymous –
No more monsters munching off our tax dollars like they have been doing.
No more accepting the risk for you to own as they walk away and let you fall-
No more falsifying time cards
No more pencil pushing people to the top-
June is NOT the month to be doing perverted resource benefit fires in Arizona especially on the Tonto- Remember the Juniper Fire and Yarnell 2016 fire—
Historically it is the DEATH month-
Very disheartening to watch and I feel bad for the ones who knows Fire Fighter Safety – and are caught in the web they weaved- on this joke of a fire burning up Saguaros—
that whole area where they were that day is already leaked out so hopefully now Troy will just do the right thing and share here his account and fire photos and videos.
I hope he does not keep on the family tradition of omissions. I hope he takes the high ground vs the low ground of quicksand.
Now as for Woodsman and him asking RTS on the recent fire- TALK TO ME, my friend…I am the savvy firecracker who is going to talk real on that fire….The Big Sky Does Not Lie—
They can lie about their little finger fire…their little chunk…and I can see how many players were on the Yarnell Hill Fire…my medical massager’s co-worker’s friends own JR Ranch-
From homeowners to WF/FFs to Forensic Weather experts to so many more- we are tightly watching…tightly.
and their “junk show”- burn all the freaking cacti you can in June ??? So why do we go from Type 3 organization to Type 1? Serious. Let’s talk truths…
night, hope to be less foggy soon to work on post 3- it was a 3 sectioned out post and I tried to sit in fromt of the pc- just not happening…zzzzzs
The falsifying of time cards for more money==I believe that was found on the Prescott FOIA’s if I remeber right–Joy is good at putting 2 and 2 together. Some of the time sheets were dated days the men were off and enjoying themselves at one of the local Pubs, yet getting paid for it. I do believe it was attributed to GMHS in particular–those records are out and must be examined closely. I do believe those men ought to be paid a bunch more than they are–the job is dangerous and the chemical exposure including the carbon and toxic chemical slurry mixed in is guaranteed health problems in life. The men should make enough they do not have to steal but stealing is stealing and if you don’t like the pay, danger and work at the pay rate then try mining or logging–both pay a hell of a lot more and on the same danger level–well logging is said to be the worse. Either way you ought to look at Peeples Valley as well since that ex Fire Chief is on tape explaining to Joy why he upgraded the charges on his water truck to a higher classification–it paid them more money. Also we were told –not by him but by one of the Yarnell insiders at the fire department that they switched locations between Peeples Valley and Yarnell because if Yarnell goes to Peeples Valley they get an out of town rate that is much better and vise-versa. There are undoubtedly scams that are sucking tax dollars much more than these petty ones and I suspect the books are even cooked on the amount of retardant charged–well if they scam small and it is over looked then it makes me suspicious of the big boys that do the overlooking.
If you are a scammer-a polite word for thief, you best remain quiet around Joy–your admissions can and will be held against you–maybe even in a court of law. Joy records things to her credit–then she has the proof and you can’t back track your actions you claim.
There is so much cover up and black outs and you can understand why–why Peoples Valley was so reluctant to give FOIA’s to Joy and used every subterfuge to hide their records. I am not sure even now she has them–I know at one point she had been two years and still had not received them from such a small operation as the Fire Department of that small community. They had worked the Yarnell Fire that killed 19 and those records are absolutely essential for public viewing.
But all the omissions, redactions, lies and cover ups brings high probability that there is skulduggery. Wild land fire fighting information is not a national security issue and ought not be redacted, hidden, and refused the public financing the whole of the system. If it is broken there are plenty of intelligent citizens and interested parties willing to expose the problems and have it cleaned up. It has gotten nasty and out of hand and too much is allowed –wild land fire fighters and any fire fighter after all boils to to being a public servant–at the beckoning of the public and should be one of the most transparent organizations Certainly these men are heroes–but being a hero does not give license to spurn the law. You may have the Presidential Medal of Honor but if you go out murdering people then you must be held accountable.
I believe there should be a thorough investigation of the system and many of the people involved–especially the Yarnell incident. If it turns into a larger investigation that is good too. Joy and the others here that are already detested by some are heroes in their own rite. You may take flack but your conscience adds goodness to your soul. You can rest well knowing you have done the right thing.
All that said, I was going to tell you how to deal with used car salesmen by loading up on garlic. But I have just made a burrito and sort of blackened my potatoes as I was typing this. I am one to get 5 projects going when I ought to stick to one. But eating carbon is not bad for you–it is breathing it that eventually brings you down with the nastiest of diseases–and sadly with almost a century and billions of dollars, doctors have not been able to cure cancer. They do slow it sometimes–and sometimes even the cure kills you. So stay away from breathing the smoke and chemicals as best you can.
Forgive my error and Just so you understand–there were only one or two involved in cooking the books concerning GMHS 18 or so are completely innocent so one or two bad apples are all that canl be proven to have done that. You might have guessed already who that might be. As usual the cowboy doing the branding gets the blame when the boss burns himself on the hot iron. Nixon was a prime example of pass the blame until the facts emerged.
.
Reply to Charlie post on June 29, 2019 at 8:26 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> The falsifying of time cards for more money– I believe that was
>> found on the Prescott FOIA’s if I remeber right — Some of the time
>> sheets were dated days the men were off and enjoying themselves
>> at one of the local Pubs, yet getting paid for it.
Minor correction. The evidence that the Granite Mountain Hotshots were falsifying their time sheets on the day before they died is based on HOURS WORKED, and not the DATE.
Granite Mountain WAS working an assignment on the Saturday before they died… and they WERE there… but they lied about when they actually got “off the clock”.
The Granite Mountain time sheet for Saturday, June 29, 2013 claimed an extra 3 hours of overtime work ( which was never actually performed ) for each and every crew member.
In total… that amounted to 60 hours of overtime work ( billable by the City of Prescott at upwards of $40 per hour ) that was never performed.
The time sheet that Granite Mountain turned in for their Saturdy, June 28, 2013 assignment listed that assignment as the “Mount Josh Fire”… and that SIGNED timesheet is publicly available at this link…
Granite Mountain Hotshots – Official Time Sheets for June 28, 29, 2013
http://media.phoenixnewtimes.com/9122596.0.pdf
The false time sheet submitted for the day before GM died was CONFIRMED by New York Times Correspondent Fernanda Santos in her book about the Yarnell Fire.
Back in Chapter 23 of this ongoing discussion…
** NEW YORK TIMES CORRESPONDENT FERNANDA SANTOS CONFIRMS
** THAT GRANITE MOUNTAIN WAS PADDING THEIR TIMESHEET(S) ON
** THE DAY BEFORE THEY DIED.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343753
Santos CONFIRMS, in her book, that the officially submitted timesheet for Granite Mountain on Saturday, June 29, 2013 had them all ‘on the clock’ and earning overtime pay until 10:30 PM that night.
But in the actual ‘narrative’ of her book… Santos also absolutely CONFIRMS that the entire Granite Mountain crew was NOT actually working until 10:30 PM on the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013, as their official timesheet SAYS they were.
In her book, Santos verifies that Marsh was HOME and back in Prescott in time to have dinner with his wife BEFORE the first call came in ( to Marsh ) about Yarnell shortly before 8:00 PM, and that the other GM Hotshots had all also been ‘dismissed’ from the ‘Mount Josh’ assignment in the EARLY EVENING on Saturday and were all back HOME circa 7:30 to 8:00 PM… and that they were ALL told they had the next two days off before being ‘dismissed.
Well…some time back I said I have a cautionary video to show WLF who think they don’t need to wear no stinkin’ respirator. But first, the backstory…otherwise you won’t understand how and why the video was ever made. But…the bottom line is, I hit the wrong button.
My Special Lady Friend ask me to sing her my favorite Christian song for her birthday. But I told her that I had already ordered her some flowers for her birthday, so…unfortunately I couldn’t because I didn’t want to over do it and appear to needy.
So then my Special Lady Friend repeated her request and ask me to sing her my favorite Christian song for her birthday.
And then I told my Special Lady Friend that unfortunately…singing a song was way out of my wheelhouse, lane and comfort zone, so I couldn’t.
So then my Special Lady Friend repeated her request and ask me to sing her my favorite Christian song for her birthday.
And then I told my Special Lady Friend that unfortunately, I couldn’t, because I wouldn’t be able to pick out my FAVORITE Christian song to sing because I liked them all so much!
And then my Special Lady Friend said, “I had about enough of your nonsense at NAU for the two years we were dating. Now, PICK OUT YOUR FAVORITE CHRISTIAN SONG AND SING IT FOR MY BIRTHDAY…OR I WILL PICK OUT ONE FOR YOU TO SING.”
So, you know…I started trying to sing my Special Lady Friend my favorite Christian song for her birthday.
But it didn’t go very well and then I got my buttons mixed up and recorded when I meant to turn the machine off.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MykNbYxXtGU
It isn’t quite as dramatic as my COPD video, but still…heads up!
But…then I got my second wind and finally got one done after about 20 takes. I think I look like a serial killer on death row who is pretending to have found Jesus in the hopes of getting out to kill again.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3uFP5-veDw
But in the end…my Special Lady Friend felt sorry for me and recorded over my voice with her own singing and so now we have kinda a Johnny Cash and June Carter thing going on. Or at least she has a June Carter thing going on. 😎
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6JVnlhQn1Ds
For your Lady Friend From Me as I go take that nap…
https://youtu.be/MPHYli7jd5A
but for her birthday wishes- it will be:
https://youtu.be/U9SPQcvlOfk
I did not watch your video first but funny I picked the same kind…hee hee
I enjoyed the realism of you both-
God Bless and Happy Birthday “Lady Friend”
When is her bday- as you know mine is the day after the GMHS fire fatality—few more days away—I have events planned but not sure I can do them…my pain has me going back to sleep….
thank you for all the videos—
Thank you Deidre-
oh and Josh Brolin could play you in the IM movie-
(kidding)
You…are a firecracker! 🧨
Special Lady Friend
https://youtu.be/_FBoNqnN7w4
found one-
https://youtu.be/gRybJmIYrxo
why is everything so cheesy???
Gary, what are the hidden dangers of the go along to get along?
why did you post for the world even the Special Lady Friend and the video “unlisted” for all of us to see- did we finally make it to the Christmas Card List?
I looked at that post one last time and tried to read the 2- just not happening- my takeaway; oh ok A new never seen before to the world blurry pic of Steed and 2 GMHS in a video and HOW IMPORTANT it is for homeowners and WF/FFs to share their accounts because we here at IM are the pixel puzzle masters…
and on post two you get to hear right from John Truett WHAT IS A STAFF RIDE…
I tried to peak for someone else at the third post but I faded—rather watch yours and her video over and over until I fall asleep
Bed time music by Gary…
It was freaking funny to see you looking all bald after all that hair in the 70s…what does she think of all that? Does she know yet? I know how can she not know— she could be blind if you only know another by face time…Flowers eh…come up with your OWN Birthday song for her…from the heart, pal. Really….I picked the same song as you both not knowing that was the video so that is me being generic but if you want to step it up…find one you picked and sing it without the karaoke lyrics running on the screen….
this video was on the screen on the right to you singing:
https://youtu.be/MKy-DmnBdvI
How many times have I said all of you are indeed among my best friends and confidants…dozens…hundreds? Not to mention how much I love all of you. So…who else would I share it with?
And I think you just might be on some really strong mind altering substances tonight?
Thanks for sharing these intimate videos with us, Gary, This is true love…
Well…our posts got crossed again, so please read the following update.
Oh…and one more thing, just because I am pretty sure you (Joy) would like to ask this question.
“Gary…since you are oversharing details about your relationship with your Special Lady Friend with some of your closest friends and confidants…what pray tell, happened to your relationship with her back in the day?”
Well…it’s actually quite simple. I could clearly see what was obvious to every one except her. She outclassed me in every category that our culture and society uses to measure people and in most categories…by a lot. And I was convinced that just as soon as she saw what everyone else could already see…I would never see her again,
So…one day she told me to go to hell and that she never wanted to see me again. And I didn’t try to change her mind.
But now…once I get my lungs, throat, brain and potty mouth fixed…who knows? Maybe I’ll get another chance to get it right?
I just have to learn how to become more Fred-Like, without actually becoming like Fred, you know…a Richard Cranium.
I just have to become more thoughtful and contemplative, less volatile, better educated and spoken, well read and versed, in addition to becoming more expressive about the importance that Jesus Christ and God play in my everyday life while quoting some of my favorite scriptures, religious scholars, philosophers, poets, and song writers who are not named Moby, quote scenes from great plays by recognized playwrights and not juvenile movies, quit thinking I am so darn funny, all while being able to discuss the latest great literary work I am reading and did I mention being able to quote highly respected and well known philosophers and religious scholars from throughout the history of mankind?
Gee…what are the odds of this ending well?
“Never Give Up…Never Surrender!”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=
Oh…and I do have a correction. I shouldn’t have used the term, “blood clots or bruising” when talking about my head. I think I should have used a term more like, “subdural hematoma“ from old head injuries?
Although at that point while listening to my doctor, I was kinda on autopilot and not really processing what he was trying to communicate to me very well.
But…I am going to get that all fixed now with a little help from my friends at OWCP and Medicare. God Bless America and Socialized medicine and the good folks at the U.S. Department of Labor, Office Of Workers Compensation Program.
I do know our sawyers dropped a big tree on me when everyone lost situational awareness as we were cutting zigzag hot line up a very steep slope at night on the Indian Fire of 1975 on the Los Padres National Forest that took me down the slope with it for Mr.Toads Wild Ride, and it put really put a big dent in my hard hat.
But I don’t think it hurt my head? And I think that’s when I first found out that I probably cant be killed. I mean…don’t get me wrong, I know I’m not immortal and that I’ll die someday. I am just pretty sure that I can’t be killed. So…there’s that then.
The tree trunk obviously missed me, or I probably would have gotten a much clearer picture this whole, “I don’t think I can be killed theory”
Harold;
How did you know Napoleon Dynamite is one of my most favorite movies…like EVER. I mean…who can forget this classic scene,
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mJYE0HuKNfI
And as far as the taxes go brother, I hear you and I feel your pain. Now…that being said, please allow me to tell you something about myself. I earn about 1 and 1/3 times as much as the average family does in the United States. I spend most of it on me, myself and I, plus the important things in this life like, guns, Jeeps, ammunition and more guns. Almost all of which would get me a very long prison sentences in your country…very long ones.
So…that being said., and as part of my retirement package, I still have had my long time choice of health insurance plans, Federal Blue Cross – Blue Shield, which is considered by most people to be a so-called Cadillac Plan.
My former employer…still pays for about 3/4 of the plan for me. When I had children I was responsible for, I always chose to go with one of the great HMO’s we as federal employees had access to because of course there are only small co-pays and I wasn’t responsible for any other out-of-pocket expenses and they could go to the doctor all of the time for “free.”
But…now I like Federal Blue Cross/Blue Shield because whenever I try to make a new doctor’s appointment, or have a problem and they ask what kind of health insurance I have, no matter what part of the country I am in, they always say, “Oh yes sir, we can take care of you sir, right away sir!” And I like being treated that way.
Now…please stick with me here because I promise you I will eventually get to a point in my story. I was diagnosed with several fairly serious problems about 8 years ago with my head and brain. I was living in Prescott and I had been falling over several times a day. I knew it was as the result of a bad ear infection, and my doctor in Phoenix knew it was as the result of a bad ear infection.
But…after I went down to see him, he ordered me to get a MRI on my brain just to make sure I didn’t have a brain tumor because that can make people fall over sideways out of the blue as well…it was kinda a CYA.
Well..a few days after getting my brain scanned down in Phoenix, my doctor’s assistant called me and told me my doctor needed to meet with me. Of course I was very concerned and asked, “WHY?” I thought I just had just a serious ear infection? And then the assistant told me, “I can’t tell you, you will have to meet with your doctor in two weeks because that is his first available appointment.
Now…you know what I thought for two weeks, I thought I was a dead man walking. But…I said, ‘Fuck it, whatever is going to happen is going to happen.” My little brother didn’t cry like a little bitch (non gender specific) during the six weeks it took cancer to kill him a couple of years earlier, I sure the fuck wasn’t going to cry either because my brother would have been ashamed of me because he is waiting for me in Valhalla.
“Lo there do I see my father; Lo there do I see my mother and my sisters and my brothers; Lo there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning. Lo, they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them, in the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.”
So…anyway, the two weeks went by and eventually I was meeting with my doctor down in Phoenix. And he told me, you have a brain tumor, but it is non malignant at this time, but you need to have it checked every six months for a few years and then once a year after that to make sure it isn’t growing or has turned cancerous. And I thought, well…that’s pretty good news and I started to get up.
And then my doctor said, and…you have a problem with the way the blood vessels are growing around your brain, there is a mass of them that are growing “haywire”, which is my term since I can’t remember the term he used and we need to keep an eye on those as well. And I thought, well…that doesn’t sound like good news and I started to get up.
And then my doctor said, and…you have a lot of bruising and associated blood clotting in areas around your brain, so we need to keep an eye on that as well every few months. And then I said, “Doctor…is there anything else I should know? And he said nope, that’s it.
Now…that was more than 8 years ago and I haven’t been back to the doctor about my brain or head since then. I made the management decision that I just didn’t want to pay for my 20% of brain surgery because I had Federal Blue Cross/Blue Shield and not an HMO.
I could have switched to an HMO at 8 different times over the past 8 years, but I didn’t want to. I know none of that will kill me because I can’t be killed and so far…none of that has effected the quality of my life either.
So…I think we can all agree that was a good call on my part because I wanted to wait until I turned 65 and went on socialized medicine along with my pension and social security (because I had a lot of jobs that earned SS outside of my government jobs) because I want you know…to have Medicare pay for all of the brain surgeries I need to get without me paying 20%, or giving up my Blue Cross/ Blue Shield.
Pretty fuckin’ smart…am I right? I mean…20% to get all of that fixed could add up to several more Jeeps and a bunch of guns…am I right?
Now…let’s review, I have 1 and 1/3 as much money as the average FAMILY does in this country. I don’t have anything to spend it on except for guns, Jeeps, ammunition and more guns, in addition to a government subsidized Cadillac Health Insurance Plan…and I am waiting for more than 8 fucking years to get my brain taken care of?
In Canada…Canadians pay $3000.00 less per family for every Canadian to be covered for all of the medical care they need, whenever they need it. If you were in my position…would you as a Canadian Citizen have waited more than 8 years to get your brain checked up on? FUCK NO YOU WOULD NOT HAVE, YOU WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THIS TAKEN CARE OF ABOUT 8 YEARS AGO!
Now, one thing you don’t know…is that I have a history on this thread of going off on political rants, which really annoys most people. But…I want to make everyone a promise right now. This is my last one because if you don’t care that there are three families in this country who own as much as the bottom 50% of the entire country, or that 99.9 % of President Trump’s tax cut went to the top 1% of America…then I sure the fuck don’t?
So…please allow me to state for the record one more time. I am off the reservation and I’m never going back. My race is over and I won. I have everything I need and almost everything I want except for some more high end sniper rifles with some really expensive glass because I enjoy long range precision shooting.
All I care about are this thread and WLF safety, my magnificent tome in progress because it will be without a doubt the greatest book ever written about wild land firefighting and being a hotshot.
And most importantly…the chance to get it right with my Special Lady Friend because I really fucked it up the first time. If you can live with having President Trump be Our Dear Leader For Life, so can I. Because he really likes people just like me.
I am Christian, White, Affluent, Conservative, Straight and best of all…my family immigrated from a Scandinavian country, he really likes people from Scandinavian countries.
I have a bigger piece of pie and the American Dream than I can eat for the rest of my life. How are you doing? Because chances are, neither you nor your kids are doing, or will ever do anywhere near as good as I am doing. And if that’s okay with you…it’s certainly okay with me?
Peace Out! ✌🏻
In other words…if I’m at the top of the Health Care Food Chain in this country and I am making inappropriate health care decisions on MONEY💰 💴 💵 , my God…what does that say about us as a society and what about the weakest and poorest among us?!!! What Would Jesus Do?
Okay, okay, okay…I have to tell you the truth. The inappropriate health care decisions I made for the last 8 years didn’t have anything to do with Jeeps, or guns, or ammo, or more guns.
But it did have everything to do with money…or more accurately the lack of it. My ex wife didn’t work for most of those years, just like she didn’t work outside of the home for most of the years we were married.
And up until just a very few months ago, I had three grown children and three grandchildren who were all black holes for money.
This is the first time I will have the money to get my fucking brain and head taken care of, mostly because socialized medicine is now finally going to pay for it.
So…I will ask the same question again for all of you CHRISTIANS out there. I am at the top of the health care food chain in this country and I have been forced to make inappropriate health care decisions based on MONEY, OR THE LACK OF IT, so…what about the poorest and weakest among us? WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
Gary, I can be a little dense sometimes, was this whole post directed to me? I feel like I offended you somehow. I obviously haven’t known you long, so maybe I have got it wrong? I suppose it is possible not everything is about me, though. (sarcasm)
I’m sorry to learn you lost a brother too, when you’re close it really sucker-punches you. You lose a part of yourself…
On a happier note, I watched a movie last night that made me think of you called ‘Bad Words’ starring Jason Bateman. It was pretty good and crude/cringeworthy, maybe you’ve seen it? I’m guessing you also like Slapshot, The Holy Grail, Life of Brian, The Rum Diaries, The Big Lebowski, The Party Animal, Dirty Harry and Clint Eastwood in general…I could go on but I think we have the same tastes?
Oops, two more posts from you came in while I was making mine. I’ll get out of the way for a bit and come back. You’re on a roll…
Yes..I’m on a roll, tonight. And no, you didn’t do anything to offend me. I was just using you by talking at you to take cheap shots at everyone in this country who will do everything they can to save every baby from an abortion…but nothing to keep those same babies from dying in the street from neglect, malnutrition, and violence in addition to physical abuse, sexual abuse and exploitation a few years later while taking away their subsidies to be able to have minimum health care, That’s all. We can be a very cruel people.
Have you seen that photo of the two year old baby who drowned in the Rio Grande? United States law is very specific…she and her family were authorized by U.S. law to enter this country at a border crossing to claim refugee status.
That is U.S. law. If people don’t like the law, they need to change it. That is what makes us a Democratic Republic.
If we don’t like our laws, we the people have the power to change them. One person doesn’t have the power to arbitrarily and capriciously change them on a whim.
President Trump is directly responsible for the death of that baby because she ran back into the river after her father because the USCBP violated U.S. law on orders from President Trump and refused to allow them entry to claim asylum at a Point Of Entry as REQUIRED BY US IMMIGRATION LAW. and the Christian Right supports his negligent homicide of that innocent baby.
I just get this way sometimes. Trump was in Japan yesterday playing lapdog bitch for Putin, which always pisses me off.
And to be completely honest with you, even though I am fearless I am a little concerned what they are going to find inside my head after 8 years when they told me I needed to keep track of what was happening every six months. What if all of those problems are now too big to even operate on? That will break me of suckin’ eggs!
I’m just mad at myself for being so stupid because I didn’t get an brain scan earlier. I’m sorry I talked at you. Hell…my brother left me almost 200 grand when he died, you would have thought I could have found the money somewhere to go see a doctor? That is called poor money management.
I just wish I was Canadian 🇨🇦 because all of you are so darn nice! 🙂 And so many of you have died beside so many of us, in so many wars and President Trump has treated you so badly as some of our closest allies with the other Four of the Five Eyes.
I just need a time out while I get my head straight. I can’t even fix my own problems…much less the rest of the worlds.
And I’m sorry you lost your brother too. Mine was my best friend. He was supposed to last up to a year and he was gone in six weeks before I ever got to even see him since he lived in Alaska (where we were originally from) and he went into a coma on the day he was leaving to come down to Arizona where I was living with my family.
So…yeah, it was a sucker punch. Thanks, just ignore me…everybody else has learned to do that except for Joy, just I because she enjoys treating me so harshly.
Oh…and one more thing. We…the most powerful nation to ever exist in the history of the world, won’t give little children, soap, tooth brushes, blankets or bedding while we make them sleep on concrete floors inside dog kennel cages and no one is allowed to touch or comfort them.
We do that to punish them because our government doesn’t like the fact that they have followed U.S. law…they FOLLOWED U.S. LAW, so we are punishing them by denying them basic human kindnesses because they didn’t come from where my people did,…a Scandinavian country and they don’t look like my children looked.
Those little children didn’t write our U.S. laws, we did. They are following our U.S. laws and we are punishing them for doing so. So…you know, I don’t like that either.
Yup…I need a time out. My BULLSHIT meter is pegged out! Go to the church where they are having that memorial in Prescott this weekend. Those Christian Fundamentalist Bible Thumpers will be congratulating themselves about what fine Christians they are.
FYI…the GMIHC had a Christian Fundamentalist thing going on that was government sponsored, which violated just about every principle this country was founded on…but nobody gives a fuck IF you have the guns…I guess? City of Prescott = City Mayor and counsel = City Fire Department = City Police Department = Guns = Power = they can do whatever they want.
You can follow the same logical progression from Trump. So when I say one person can’t arbitrarily and capriciously change the law on a whim because we are a Democratic Republic and not a monarchy, of course what I mean is that isn’t SUPPOSED to happen according to out U.S. Constitution.
But Trump has command of the guns, and the guns give him the power to wipe his ass with the U.S. Constitution. So…end of story. “They” always say power comes out of the barrel of a gun…and they are right.
We can be a very cruel people.
Oh…and warlike. We are also a very warlike people. Cruel and warlike…that can be a very dangerous combination.
Yup…love em all. And of course you could just go right down the list of ALL of the Coen Brothers movies…am I right?
Wait just one cotton pickin’ minute here. Gee…I really hope that old saying doesn’t have any racist overtones today?
So…the Heights Church is where they are having the…”memorial” or whatever it is this weekend?
The Heights Church is a Christian Fundamentalist Church.
Darrell Willis is a Christian Fundamentalist and a member of that church.
The relationship between Ed Hollenshead and Darell Willis was based on Christian Fundamentalist Bible Thumping. For most of the time Ed and I were friends, he was NOT a Christian Fundamentalist, that started after he got to Prescott for the most part.
I think Ed has moved back to Prescott, or at least Prescott Valley?
The GMIHS government sponsored Christian Fundamentalism was based on the Heights Christian Church.
Robert Caldwell and his cousin Grant Mckee were both killed with the crew.
Robert Caldwell was a squad boss on the crew.
Someone was a youth pastor, I think it was Robert Caldwell at the Heights Christian Church?
Someone was always holding prayer meetings during crew breaks and preaching at the crew during those breaks looking for converts to become Christian Fundamentalists. .
Sad Sack was well on his way down that path.
I personally find all of that very offensive because of my affinity for Mormons and Christian Fundamentalists and members of the Heights Church believe Mormons aren’t even Christians, or believe in Jesus and are in a “cult” and not a religion. Although they said the same thing about you know…Jesus Christ and his followers for hundreds of years until Constantine got with the program…very generally speaking.
The Heights Church, just in case you want to go to the memorial is located on LARRY CALDWELL DRIVE
http://www.heightschurch.com/
So…what does all of that mean? I don’t have the slightest idea, but all of a sudden I’m interested what relationship Robert Caldwell has if any, to Larry Caldwell?
And…I guess I would like to know just how many members of the crew were also members of the Heights Christian Church? Including those who may have attended services or merely associated with that particular church on any level.
If you listen to some of Pastor Willis’ comments in the immediate aftermath of the deaths of the crew….I have always wondered IF religion and their belief in God and the big scheme of things played a role in their decision to follow Marsh”s Death March (which I am going to call it from now on copying Student of Fire) because there was definitely a, “Well…this all worked out for the best just like God wanted it to because they are in a better place now” theme going on back then. And I think it still is among some families? And while I get the whole “coping” concept with those beliefs. I just would like to know if any of those beliefs played any role in deciding to drop off down into that death chute, As in, their version of, “ʾIn shāʾ Allāh.”
Just curious?
And no Harold…none of that was directed at you except for the movie part. I guess I just find you someone who is comforting to talk at? Probably because you are Canadian, and I have always heard just how darn nice you people are?
Except for you know…your Canadian Armed Forces sniper who holds the world’s record for the longest kill shot at 3,871 yards (a mile is 1760 yards) Although he is probably a nice guy to talk to also, but I’m pretty sure he is a bad ass?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_recorded_sniper_kills#History
Canadian Armed Forces snipers hold three of the five top world record kill shots. So…I guess don’t fuck with Canadians, at least very much because nice only goes so far?
Gary, I just wanted to say Hi, before I sign off. I’m falling asleep on my keyboard. Been pushin’ it too hard this week. I wanted to respond to your posts, but I can barely see. I’ll catch up with you soon.
Troy,
Agonizing over choices one does not want to make-
If you cannot for you YOU – do it for your brother-
you can do this.
The choice you make is the one you resist that will set you free (Bobette Buster – https://vimeo.com/58947885)
today it is time…at 5:28 pm if I do not hear from them speaking public on here I will begin to tell the things Craig has told me…and today at 5:28pm if they have not spoken on IM I will begin to just share areas – no tuning back – I gave you all the time in the world…
Soon will mark 6 years
I will also talk about Woodsbury- you will learn those folks being puppeteer into thinking fighting fire as it was just done in June – nope…Sorry…you are being tightly watched across the USA and Internationally…us Forensic Weather – Fire Weather Nerds are here to stay… We are your future- you think you are fooling the taxpayers but soon enough you will see who the fools are…
Wtktt- look for your email – need something answered – thanks- heading there now to show you
The time to speak is now Joy–Mrs. Mash Lohman is infiltrated with the ideas she learned from her former husband Eric. And you see how his wild fire management ended. But I have to believe she is among those that are always right, never wrong. Individuals if the truth hit them in the face they would not see it or admit to it. So do not expect many to come forward–most certainly if they are in the clutches in the system and very apt to loose finances and gain the disdain of their peers at the same time. It is a funky business–if that word defines anything proper and truth seeking.
In the blackhawk down situation during the Bill Clinton times, 19 young heroes were killed just because some commander decided to go after a couple underling Somali shit heads. They were not worth much and the mission was a mess–loss of life and equipment–as costly in lives as it was in equipment. Sometimes I think Willis might have something–19 seems to be the devils number–19 terrorists were involved in killing the 3000 victims at the World Trade Centers.
Facts need to be out there but do not think those fellows that are promoting movies and books are looking to have the truth shown and that is despite the facts we have already seen. The main media is lax as well–something I do not understand since media usually jumps on situations that bear truth and would save lives.
Note that we are going on 6 years now since the death of those GMHS. There has been little change in attitude–the system has ’em by the balls so it is only those that have some that will speak out and have been speaking out.
There is nothing to fear but fear itself. FDR
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 28, 2019 at 1:00 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>>
>> Wtktt- look for your email – need something answered – thanks-
>> heading there now to show you
Yes, that is Troy Steinbrink in the photograph, second from the right.
Troy is standing next to his father, Duane Steinbrink.
That photograph is in that book about the Prescott Fire Department that Prescott firefighter Conrad Jackson published in 2014.
The photo was a picture of MANY of the ‘father/son’ combinations that have worked for the Prescott Fire Department, Fuels Crew 7, and the Granite Mountain Hotshots… including Ed Hollenshead’s son Cody Hollenshead, Marty Cole and his son, Duane Steinbrink and his son, Troy Steinbrink, Darrell Wills ans his son, etc., etc.
Most of the photos in that PUBLISHED book can be viewed at ‘Google Books’ just by selecting the ‘Preview’ option under the book listin…
A History of the Prescott Fire Department
By: Eric Conrad Jackson
Published by: Arcadia Publishing, 2014
https://books.google.com/books/about/Prescott_Fire_Department.html?id=fEz_AwAAQBAJ
A more recent ( March, 2018 ) PUBLIC photo of Prescott Fire Department FF Troy Steinbreink ( son of Prescott’s first Wildland Division Chief Duane Steinbrink ).
The photo accompanied an article that appeared in the Prescott Daily Courier.
Troy Steinbrink is the one on the far right, on the treadmill…
https://web.archive.org/web/20190629000547/https://www.dcourier.com/photos/2018/mar/29/984956792/
Here’s a little secret.
The link below will FORCE the photo of Troy Steinbrink and his father, Duane Steinbrink to be included in the free online ‘preview’ of Eric Conrad’s book about the History of the Prescott Fire Department.
The ‘father and son’ combination(s) photo will appear with Troy Steinbrink’s name highlighted in the caption under the photo. Just scroll up a little to see the whole photo.
https://books.google.com/books?id=vqxqBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=%22Troy+Steinbrink%22+duane&source=bl&ots=oC4bBVDyZp&sig=ACfU3U0UpsqxR3GTX_830dhbyI7X6rBM_w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwix6omttI3jAhVtmeAKHWZdCXgQ6AEwDnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Troy%20Steinbrink%22%20duane&f=false
Full CAPTION for this photo…
———————————————————————————
Firefighting for Prescott Fire Department has become a tradition in the families seen here. From left to right are Dan Sanders, Derek Sanders, Aaron Laipple, Paul Laipple, Tim McElwee, Travis McElwee, Tyle Cole, Marty Cole, Troy Steinbrink, and Duane Steinbrink. The father-and-son combinations of Bob and Dean Hinshaw and Darrell and Jared Willis were not available the day of the picture shoot.
———————————————————————————-
Health-wise, been a tough day
I have given editing rights to another so POST 1 should be at 5:28pm then the next two after
I gave the heads up emails to some but nothing yet
I personally will be back on IM to write about Woodsbury— and as well the BSR and for now a nap
What timezone???
This man has it right. Definitely something we need to get back to. for ALL of the WFs and FFs engaged in wildland fire suppression. After all, the critters in the Arizona desert are doing it and surviving.
“NEXT STEPS IN WILDLAND FIRE MANAGEMENT”
Source: Williams, J. (2002) FMT, 62, pp. 31-35. Jerry Williams was the Director of Fire and Aviation Management, USDA Forest Service, Washington Office, Washington, DC. and what follows is based on remarks made by the him at the National Fire and Aviation Management Meeting from February 25 to March 1, 2002, in Scottsdale, AZ.
( https://www.fs.fed.us/sites/default/files/fire-management-today/62-4.pdf )
“Firm Rules of Engagement
“The Ten Standard Firefighting Orders must be firm rules of engagement. They cannot be simple guidelines, and they cannot be “bargained.” They are the result of hard-learned lessons. Compromising one or more of them is a common denominator of all tragedy fires. On the Dude, South Canyon, and Thirtymile Fires, the Fire Orders were ignored, overlooked, or otherwise compromised.
“The Fire Orders mean little after we are in trouble. That is why we must routinely observe them and rely on them before we get into trouble. We know that no fire shelter can ensure survival all of the time under all circumstances. Entrapment avoidance must be our primary emphasis and our measure of professional operational success.
“Conditions on the fireline can rapidly change. In the pressure of the moment, it is easy for people to overlook something important. That is why we must encourage our firefighters to speak up when they notice safety being compromised. As Weick and Sutcliffe point out, “people who refuse to speak up out of fear enact a system that knows less than it must to remain effective.” We must promote a working environment where even our greenest firefighters feel free to speak up.
“Following an accident, a “standdown” should be an accepted practice for those involved, until the facts can be sorted out. However, it is a shame that our focus on accountability too often occurs after an accident. Culturally, we must shift the weight of accountability to the time before an accident takes shape. We must embrace the rules of engagement as a way of doing business—as a professional standard. Violation of any Fire Order must prompt management or supervisory intervention and, unless rapidly corrected, be unarguable grounds for release from the fireline, release from the incident, or—if egregious—serious personnel action.
“However, we must not adhere to the Fire Orders for fear of punishment. We must embrace the Fire Orders because we owe it to one another. In that sense, the Fire Orders must become a shared obligation, where the leader’s situational awareness depends on participation by the entire crew and where the crew’s participation is tempered with respect for the leader’s responsibility. Borrowing from the aviation community’s model of Cockpit/ Crew Resource Management, we must focus fireline operations more on what is right than on who is right.”
Gary had mentioned his father having met his death by falling down the Uranium mine shaft–It plays on your mind knowing that I had worked in the very same shaft at first back in 1965 and again later in the 70’s when I returned to Uranium mining. I had always worked in hard rock mines for the most part and had only about two years as an underground uranium miner–and those years were after 73 or I would be enriched with about $250,000 since I do have the cancers and COPD that has already killed upwards of 90% of those Uranium miners I had worked with in the mid and late 70’s.
I had never liked working for Kerr McGhee, of course none of the Uranium mines were anywhere near safe. I had worked Firerro, New Mexico as a raise miner but after about 9 months there the mine went on strike. Miners of my type were called tramp miners since it was not unusual for a mine to shut down for various reasons–the price of metal falls, or like the Tybo Nevada rat hole I worked in the investment money ran out or the Zinc mine at Mt. Hope, Nevada, the price of zinc dropped and there you go again.
Uranium mining is a beast of its own and you know damn well the devil is lurking down there in those miles of tunnels a thousand foot underground and ready at any moment to snatch your ass. For one thing the ground can not be sounded so you were often working under loose slabs ready to cut loose and like the fire fighters rotten or smoldering tree and loose branch you hope one does not fall with your number on it. The Uranium in those mines is gernerally black pitcheblende ore–the yellow and green carnotite ores are oxidized versions near the surface–not seen a thousand foot down. But the main problem is that unlike hard rock, sandstone has loose areas that can and will fall on you–instincts and fast reaction time are often your only salvation. Then there are rock blasts where I have actually dragged miners out from under a slab that it took four other miners all they could do to just lift one side of that slab. Somehow the pressure down 900 ft. in that case is such that it sometimes would cause these rock blasts as you were drilling a face. Those faces, or the forward sandstone you were drilling were up to 15 ft. high so you can imagine that a goodly sized slab could shoot out and pin you. Those fellows we fed into what is called a bullet–a cage enough to get a body in and thew were winched up a bore hole similar to what saved the Chilean miners–both survived in that instance –I only remember one name Frank–and saw him about a year later, I think why I remembered because he had crushed ribs but was able to be back at it. He had told me the other guy had quit mining.
Of course you know that my number came up when a slab came down on me in 79 when I was working at SOHIO–the Standard Oil of Ohio Uranium shaft on Laguna Indian Reservation, Seboyeta, New Mexico. I had worked the United Nuclear Mine for a couple years but the diesel smoke there was getting to me so I had opted to go over to SOHIO–where the drifts are not so huge and at least where I was working the diesel smoke not as prevalent, yet it was there due to early miners not putting proper length bolts in I was to be injured enough to ruin my mining career. I had lain in bed for two weeks at home after being taken out–I figured I would be able to recover on my own but the pain became so excruciatimg and the fact I could not walk or move without it I finally had Angie, the first or maybe second wife to get help to load me into our old station wagon and haul me to Albuquerque where at the Prysbyterian Hospital there they did a partial lamenectomy that did not hold but for a year or so until I found myself again on the floor of our home in Las Cruces–an older retired nurse would bring me drink and water bless her heart–and that time I could only take 7 days of the prone no walking situation and pain until I managed another ride. Angie had returned from Mexico with a visit with her Dad–the Jefe de Migracion at Berrendo, Chih. and her mom that had an adobe abode there at that border crossing. And there are some blood curdling stories there that Angie had seen such as men shot and blood splattered all over the walls due to some gambling arguement and others–so danger in New Mexico might lurk anywhere–well true the world over now a days.
In those days it was nothing for me to go to the Silver Spur after work and down a picture of beer. If it is still there they had those cold pictures ready for the miners and whoever ran that place knew how to keep the temperature at a point so ice was just forming. Whew it was good after manhandling a jack leg all day and the other things that driving drift involved. That Jack Leg weighed as much as I do and I was often carrying it around and even taking it up wooden ladders with me–It was my baby and it brought home the bacon.
I do not know if wild land fire fighting is like that but the Uranium mines always gave me a foreboding. Everytime I approached that cage to be lowered 900 ft. into the earths bowels, I had this distinct feeling it would had a good probability it would be my last trip. I never had that feeling in hard rock mining–maybe because I had been in and around hard rock mines since 9 years old. Even when I cowboyed for Charlie did his assessment work on his mining claims he had on the ranch–fluourspar and they were underground –some fairly deep.
Raise mining I did at Fierro was likely the most dangerous–those fellows do not have a long life expectancy and few miners will tackle it. But for some reason I never had the fear there that Uranium mining had brought. I had even fallen some 30 ft into a muck pile–m,y fault cause I did not have my studs in solid. You did not have a helper in raise mining–it was just too dangerous because you were drilling off timbers wedged in with wooden wedges and going straight up. I had used a Jack Leg there but when I worked at the Noble Mine at Pine Valley, Vern Harkness, the owner had bought some old Navy Stopers and those damn things were used dry so you had to keep your nose next to the air outlet to breath. The dust would fill the mine so you could barely see except right around that air exhaust. That by the way was in arsenopyrite–arsenic and pyrite compound. Those days no one bothered for dust masks but maybe that keeping your nose close to the machine was a mitagator.
I am sadden to see the many illnesses caused to the wild land fire fighter–they look like an Ambrosia Lake Uranium mine did after a shift or a coal miner that got the black lung fr0m too much of the black carbon he breathed. It wants to make me cry knowing what these young fellows face later in life if they are fortunate enough to survive a bad commander or some malady such as a chance tree or branch fall. The ignorance is so prevalent concerning the chemicals–that carbon they are breathing is the same shit the coal miners breathe. and even worse when mixed with the life killing chemical slurry drops. It is no wonder in my mind they suffer the same COPD, cancer, and heart failure problems I have today. The worse thing is their is so little said about it and these damn corporations are all complicit in keeping the truth hidden while it is in plain view. Those bastards can and do hire doctors and psychologists to do their dirty work. People are easily bought in some cases and you saw just what I am talking about when tobacco corporations had their doctors telling you that all this ballyhoo about that smoke causing heart failure and lung cancers, etc. was a mistake. Shit those doctors knew the truth but they wanted those Hawaiian Vacations and Mercedes payments–greed had them by the nuts.
It is likewise today–and like the mine inspectors that you could not find during the day in the Uranium mines, the game goes on. Hell, in all of my mining years, I never ever saw a mine inspector in any mine. They must have been as scarce as hen’s teeth –and what I heard they were mostly discussing the mining situation over wine and high priced vittles. So there you are, the little man working his but off is only going to get justice by other men who have walked his path.
Sorry for the many typing errors and misuse of proper syntax, etc–by who should be by whom and so on–damn me I ought to have more respect for the kings English–well if i had my way you would likely read my Irish version–maybe you did–It would take WTKTT to translate to Gailage
I enjoy your straight talk Sonny.
Thanks Diane Lomas–nice to know you are still around–I always enjoyed your questions and the answers the fellows give. It has brought a lot to the light and helped some of us make better sense out of things.
OMGosh…Diane stopped by!
Woodsman said
JUNE 27, 2019 AT 4:16 AM
Gary,
I didn’t “throw you a loop” on the “How Big is Big Enough” topic. I just reminded you of the assumptions of the calculation I made for the required size of the safety zone for Yarnell. Basically they needed AT LEAST 16.5 acres cleared of combustible material to survive. No huge refutation there at all.
Keep up.the good work!
My Response;
It’s not you Woodsman..it’s me. I went through a difficult period of my life over the past few years where I was conflicted about fire shelters, like so many other things. In fact…after more than 40 years of having my head on straight, I became fire shelter curious and I tried to find a compromise in order to co-exist between both worlds. But…I now realize that was wrong of me and I am working on an appropriate response, but it is the hardest MOP I have tried to write in the last six years.
But…I just wanted to come out and categorically state for the record, I no longer believe compromise is possible and you yourself have described where all fire shelters belong. I can’t be part of something that in the end is more likely to kill wild land firefighters than save them. All fire shelters must be fed to the woodchippers before they can kill again.
Whoops, I should have written.
But…I just wanted to come out and categorically state WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION for the record, I no longer believe compromise is possible and you yourself have described where all fire shelters belong. I can’t be part of something that in the end is more likely to kill wild land firefighters than save them. All fire shelters must be fed to the woodchippers before they can kill again.
Measuring twice and cuting once definitely doesn’t apply to me and my participation in this thread. Bummer.
Oh…and one more thing. Therefore…I am hereby terminating my one person campaign of, “How Big Is Big Enough…Because Size Does Matter!”
But…I do I have some good news for you! I am taking this opportunity to launch my new one person nationwide fire shelter campaign.
“Complete & Total Abstinence Is The Only Way To Safely Use a Fire Shelter!”
I have some variations of my new slogan out to some focus groups at this time…so I am still working on the final bumper stickers.
And just in case you are wondering what the straw was that finally broke me of suckin’ eggs and experimenting with being fire shelter curious (and in case my MOP never becomes more than word salad and therefore suitable for publication) here are the salient issues…in a Readers Digest Format.
1. The numbers are just too damn big. I was having a hard enough time coping with “up to” 16.5 acres and I can’t deal with “at least” 16.5 acres.
2. The math is just too damn hard. I can’t even get my CAPTCHA math right on the first try 50% of the time.
3. There are just too damn many variables.
So…I shut down. 🙁
And I want to extend my warmest welcome to Harold as well. We have a big tent here on IM and we really need people who aren’t in the industry and don’t have a particular angle or interest because they can and have asked the some of the most important and provocative questions.
And although we have lost some very important participants since we began six years ago, I hope they are just taking a well deserved break and they will be back because we need them.
Thank you so much Gary! I’ve have been told I see things very differently, so I hope that’s true and I can help. I am working on some questions.
By the way, how’s your head doing? I hope it takes your mind off your leg. No more break dancing for a while, OK?
I noticed Joy has been missing, I know she’s not feeling good either and she’s likely very busy, but I hope she’s back soon.
I just posted to Charlie, I am having to think too hard for CAPTCHA, so I need sleep. I never went to sleep last night at all and now it’s 4:00am here.
CAPTCHA: Can Anyone Please Tuck Canadian Harold Away? Yeaah, I’m done for the night zzzzzz.
Reply to Harold post on June 28, 2019 at 1:06 am
>> Harold said…
>>
>> I’ve have been told I see things very differently,
>> so I hope that’s true and I can help. I am working
>> on some questions.
That’s a great way to simply get ‘up to speed’ and/or make sure you are getting what you want and/or came here for.
There are LOTS of people who follow this forum who know a LOT about the REAL evidence record, and some of the most intense and enlightening discussions have come out of someone simply ‘asking a question’ or looking for clarity on something they’re not sure about.
That being said… I have a question for YOU.
I think you said you “only heard about the Yarnell tragedy about 6 weeks ago”.
If that’s the case… then what was it that actually brought it to your attention after all this time?
I’m just curious.
The short answer is the movie…
But, there’s an interesting twist to it.
Normally I get my news from TV. However, at the time of the tragedy, I was still going through a gauntlet of my own, so I was really out of touch with the world in general. I suspect there was some coverage on the (Canadian) news, but I was certainly unaware of it.
Now, I know how this is going to sound, but I swear to you on my mother’s grave this is the truth:
Fast forward to about 6-8 weeks ago. I was returning some movies to the local library and I was in a hurry to keep moving, so I decided to drop off and run. On the way out I passed the cart where they keep the movies that are ready to go back on the shelf. I blew by that, and was going out the door, when I suddenly had an urge to go back and check.
I know, I know, but it really happened this way.
I quickly riffled through the movies and one caught my eye. Only the Brave. I looked at it and put it down a couple times, but I couldn’t resist it so I went back and checked it out.
(I have to admit, Jennifer Connelly may have had a little bit to do with it…I mean… Jennifer Connelly c’mon, right?…please don’t tell my wife.)
Back to being serious.
Normally I read the case to see what it’s about, but this time I didn’t, because I was short on time. So I had no idea what it was about, going in.
I watched it 3 times that week, including the commentary, and I just needed to know more about what really happened. I began a search and quickly found the SAIT report, which left me totally unsatisfied, and I knew at that point there was a cover-up.
The I saw your comment, somewhere, telling some ignoramus to come here to find the truth and the rest is history.
I would like to point out that even though I’m not in the industry, there’s an extensive amount firefighting history in my immediate family, as well as many of my friends and extended family. (My uncle was even local fire chief for as long as I can remember) . So I grew up directly in the environment and it was a big part of my formative years.
I know the feeling of not knowing if that person is coming home, and I believe that’s why I feel so connected to this tragedy and why I need the TRUTH.
My wife was even on the fire brigade at work and received a lot of training, so she has let me bounce some ideas off her, as well. She was also a certified Level III Health and Safety Plant Chairperson. She’s so much smarter than me.
So, I understand how important it is to prevent this from EVER happening again, and the only way to do that is to get to the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH.
I hope no one feels I was being deceptive when I said I wasn’t in the industry, because I personally am not. I guess in hindsight, I am in a vicarious way, but I didn’t see it that way, so you all can decide how you feel about it, and I’m sorry if I misled you.
To be honest I don’t really know the first thing about the rules and procedures of firefighting, especially wildland firefighting, but I am learning a lot with with everyone’s help. Thanks everyone!
Furthermore, my family were all structural firefighters, which I know is apples and oranges when it comes to firefighting. I am absolutely fascinated by, and wish to learn so much more about, wildland firefighting.
Thanks for asking, and listening, WTKTT!
This is what it’s going to take to make real change – citizens standing up & demanding answers and accounting of their tax money being spent. Our own industry is obviously incapable or unwilling to police itself.
Thanks for caring enough about us, Harold. It really makes a difference.
An amazing story Harold–thanks for sharing.
Harold,
You posted “I began a search and quickly found the SAIT report, which left me totally unsatisfied, and I knew at that point there was a cover-up.”
What was / were the thing(s), factor(s), whatever, that convinced you there was a cover-up by the SAIT after reading the SAIR?
Yes Harold, thanks for asking, both my head and leg are fine. That damn trailer actually got my leg in three places, but the others were’t as bad.
I think I will post some photos to show everyone just how close I came to being killed by that damn Jeep hauler. That is why it was a life changing event and I officially retired from “Doing Stupid Things.” Although I am a lot lot Bruce Willis in “Unbreakable”, I can be hurt, but I’m pretty sure I can’t be killed.
I told my Special Lady Friend (who is exceptionally religious, but not Mormon) that I officially accepted Jesus in the nano second between when that Jeep Hauler almost crushed me to death but the Hand Of God knocked me out of the way and it crashed into the back of my Jeep instead.
I did meet my Special Lady Friend at a church sponsored dance at NAU, so what can I expect? Unfortunately, she keeps giving me Pop Quizzes about religious stuff and I keep failing. I try to fake it with my answers, which she finds both endearing and irritating…but mostly irritating,
I wish I could talk like RTS does, since THOSE PEOPLE speak in a code only they understand with lots of key words and phrases thrown about Jesus. Maybe I could wear a wire and have RTS on other end of it if I ever get her out to dinner and then RTS can tell me key words to say, like referencing “Second Corinthians” instead of “Two Corinthians” like President Trump did while trying to convince Evangelical voters to love him at Liberty University.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153849613726800&id=7976226799&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&_rdr
Trump didn’t even have to convince them to like him, he had them at “Supreme Court” since NOTHING else matters to them even if I am going to have to learn how to speak Russian at my age, or be executed as an enemy of the people…am I right?
Will you sponsor me as a citizen if I emigrate to Canada? My family came this close to becoming Canadians while my father was working on building highways up in Alaska. I was almost born in Canada instead of the U.S. Territory of Alaska. Can I get extra points for that? I promise to get my brain tumor removed here before I move up there, and as far as the COPD goes…I’m pretty sure I’m getting better.
My impact resistant bicycle helmet came, but I ordered the ‘Muddy Pink” one to help with viability when I go outside but they just sent a Pink one. I am going to keep it though because I’m pretty sure nice store clerks will want to help the stupid old man in the pink bicycle helmet even more. I mean…wouldn’t you? There’s no telling what someone like that might do…am I right?
Anyway..yes, my leg and head are just fine now. I think I will post a new photo of my leg so everyone can see how fast I heal. Again…thanks for asking. I hoped Joy would ask, but I have noticed she really isn’t very nurturing and is often very harsh with me just like RTS is ….am I right?
Oh…and one more thing. If my Special Lady Friend ever discovers my potty mouth with my on line persona here on this thread…I am going to be dead to her…so mums the word. 🤫
Oh…and one more thing. I tried to watch those Democratic debates but I couldn’t deal with some much nonsense.
I want them to cover that debate stage with broken glass and then whichever candidate will strip down nude and low crawl across it is the person they pick to take on Putin’s Bitch ( gender specific).
Because I don’t want to learn how to speak Russian even though they named Russia after my people…the “Rus”, or those who row. I have a lot of relatives in northern Russia and Belarus, which is historically known as ‘White Russia.” But…I am really bad at learning new things. So…
If you come to Canada bring as many bags of gold as you can, they tax EVERYTHING here. You might want to leave that tumour in as well, you’ll need it to put up with our leader.
Oh, and you will also need to learn to speak Chinese, they will OWN us shortly.
So a helmet, hmm? Going all ‘Napolean Dynamite’ on us are you?
Hmmmmm…decisions, decisions?
Well…I guess I had better just stay here and fight then.
I am kinda worried though, because President Trump says he has all of the “tough” people who have all of the guns on his side?
I’m pretty sure he hasn’t seen the inside of my gun safe, under my bed, my pillow, my car seat, my glove box, most of my pockets, both of my ankle holsters or my double gun shoulder holster….just for starters.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5oZi-wYarDs
I had better enroll in Rex Kwon Do though to get some more skills for the coming battle.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzh9koy7b1E
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of tyrants and patriots.”
Patriots like me!
Correction,
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.”
Thomas Jefferson
FUCK THAT RAT FACED BASTARD PUTIN AND HIS LITTLE BITCH!
There was no code with Jesus–he made it plain and simple with two commandments.–ask your lady friend if she knows those–Old Jesus did not want to complicate life–
I hope you don’t mind if I put this here Charlie,
I was going to post it up above but I see Joy is about to do something big, and I did not want to disrupt that thread.
I just had a very poignant moment that I wanted to share with you all.
Realizing the significance of this weekend, I was standing in front of my calendar, lost in a thought, when I noticed it’s from 2013.
(It’s a custom frame, so I keep my old ones and reuse them to save money)
I checked the perpetual index and this is the first time the cycle has repeated since then. I just felt it was something I needed to share. I think it’s a sign.
I don’t know if I should have posted this, but I’ll definitely be thinking of them this weekend.
Ahhhhh, thanks for the advice, but…I have a strict rule I live by.
Well…it’s actually more of a guideline than a rule.
If it ain’t broke…try not to fuck it up.
So….
Oh, and FYI Harold…Joy is ALWAYS on the verge of doing something BIG!
So…don’t hold your breath until she does because you know…you will die!
So a football field size of boulders would be inadequate–that would be only about an acre and a third. However there they could have found refuge under the huge bouder pile where there were several places to get below the surface. It is sensible since the flames were laying down almost level to the ground with the winds and lapping out up to 100 ft. which is a third the distance of a football field. So that tiny clearing they did was of no use at all.
However I should revise my estimate on those boulders–much more than I had estimated by memory I think. I would like to go back to the spot where they died and get a better estimate of the boulder field that was a very short distance south of where the 19 deployed. Obviously if you can get below ground there is some advantage since the story of Pulaski speaks to saving his crew in a tunnel–however even there there was some killed. Well I will not do that since 100 hikes–Joy gave the count i think 105 hikes we had made together to the site with various people. She has made over 900 hikes there so is much more contaminated than I am–but I do not wish her to add more. Maybe someone that is good with google maps can hone in on the boulder field and get a very good estimate–that would be Col. Dan in Idaho if he is still keeping track of IM.
I was quite amazed that people that have no wild land fire fighting understanding or experience could attack the wild land fire fighter that had put out his analogy of the death incident of GMHS at Yarnell. Shows how ignorance shows its ugly face. I wondered what credentials Amanda had to talk on the subject–maybe she can inform us or someone has that information. Loosing a loved one is sad but does not make you an expert on wild land fire fighting; likewise, I am not one so informed that my opinion rates. I did see the error since I was there shortly before they went off the deep end–could have done that myself if I only had half a brain but I almost let Joy do it–Thank God I did go back and get her–I do wonder if she would have sat there until the GMHS crew came along and they would have rescued her their way. Whew, glad I had no part in that crew.
These are some quotes from a WF with the website blog titled “Student of Fire” with numerous blog posts, the one below titled: “About Student of Fire.”
You will want to check this guy’s website out. He posted from 2016 until 2018 and then kinda quit. WTF?
( http://studentoffire.org/ )
And another link ( http://studentoffire.org/index.php/sample-page/ )
“About Student of Fire
“The idea for this website came from my growing enthusiasm for SEEKING OUT WISDOM ANYWHERE IT COULD BE FOUND. This is my fifth season in fire and it seemed a good way for generating ideas and pursuing them further. But going from firefighter to student of fire, I owe that to Paul Gleason among others.” (emphasis added)
“During a recent 2800-mile road trip to the southwest, I MADE A SITE VISIT TO THE 1990 DUDE FIRE and attended a staff ride in Arcadia California for the Loop Fire of 1966. While revisiting the documents tied to those incidents – THINGS LIKE INVESTIGATION REPORTS, newspaper articles, old photographs and maps – one thing became ingrained in me. It was A SPEECH PAUL GLEASON MADE IN 1996 … honoring those killed 30 years earlier in the Loop Fire. “UNFORTUNATELY, MUCH OF OUR KNOWLEDGE AND LESSONS LEARNED ABOUT WILDLAND FIRE HAVE BEEN GAINED ONLY THROUGH THE HIGH COST OF FIREFIGHTER’S LIVES.” (emphasis added)
The Student of Fire aptly noted that “IT TAKES COURAGE TO STAND UP TO THE STATUS QUO, TO THE WAY THINGS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN, AND SAY I THINK WE CAN DO BETTER, I THINK WE SHOULD DEMAND MORE FROM OURSELVES.”
He (SoF) was in some sort of Agency meeting about the upcoming new outlook on fire management and this is what he said: “I got to see that today, in person. A room full of people voicing their opinions, thoughts, and doubts about a vision for the future, about their role in it, and how it would all play out. Today I witnessed some serious leadership at work and it was awesome.”
Please spend the time and read this guy’s posts and commentary.
He seems like a very bright fellow who truly loves Wildland Firefighting with the same fervor that many do. He has looked at the evidence and coins an interesting phrase relevant to the YH Fire – “MARSH’S DEATH MARCH” in the post below titled: On the Road: Yarnell posted January 18, 2017. (emphasis added)
He (SoF) is criticized harshly by the BWS AM with the classic guilt trip attempts and then she steers him to a link with the Jon Maclean website.
YARNELL HILL AND GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS BOOKS AND THOUGHTS
July 2, 2016 by studentoffire
I think he takes far too seriously the accounts in these books he lists, especially from McDid-Not and others. And that is his privilege and prerogative to do so.
“’WHY DID GRANITE MOUNTAIN LEAVE A GOOD SAFETY ZONE?’ THIS FAILURE GETS RIGHT TO THE HEART OF HOW A MAJORITY OF US APPROACH THIS EVENT, WHICH HOLDS SOME PITFALLS. IT IMPLIES THAT UNTIL WE FIND THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, WE DON’T HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION TO LEARN ANYTHING OF VALUE.” (all emphasis added)
“HONORING THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN BY LEARNING AS MUCH AS WE CAN TO PREVENT SIMILAR TRAGIC EVENTS IN THE FUTURE DOESN’T NECESSARILY ENTAIL HAVING INFORMATION THAT DOESN’T EXIST. WE WANT TO REVISIT THE YARNELL HILL TRAGEDY AND SEE A SPECIFIC DECISION OR TURNING POINT, WHERE WE CAN NEATLY SAY “THERE, THAT’S WHERE THEY SCREWED UP; THAT’S WHY THEY WERE KILLED”, OR, “THAT’S WHY THEY DID WHY THEY DID”. (emphasis added)
“MAYBE WE DON’T HAVE AN UPDATED LCES, A NEW SET OF FIREFIGHTING ORDERS OR WATCH OUT SITUATIONS BECAUSE OF YARNELL HILL. BUT YARNEL [sic] HILL HAPPENED. MAYBE THAT’S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER: SOMETIMES THE LESSON WE WANT TO LEARN ISN’T NECESSARILY THE LESSON BEING AFFORDED TO US. I FIND THIS TO BE TRUE, TIME AND TIME AGAIN, IN MY PERPETUAL PURSUITS OF KNOWLEDGE AND THE NEVER-ENDING STUDY OF FIRE.” (emphasis added)
The GMHS had LCES, however, they failed to properly apply LCES as it was designed. They had the best view of the entire fire, save Air Attack, so the “L” prong is covered. They had communications, however, failed to properly apply the “C” prong by talking mostly on their discreet Crew Net, The properly applied he “E” prong by using an Escape Route to go from their perceived danger to the black and their “Lunch Spot.” This is the common definition and use of the “E” prong of LCES, a route FROM danger to safety. NOT from safety into danger which is what they did.
The GMHS completely perverted the meaning and use of the term “Escape Route” and turned it on it’s head. The SAIT-SAIR basically ignored honestly dealing with this issue and addressing the fact that the GMHS were deceptive, among other things.
Go to his Student of Fire website and check it out. He has a ton of good material on all things wildland fire
Thank you for that.
The ACTUAL link to his ACTUAL Blog post about his ‘road trip’ to Yarnell is here…
Student of Fire
On The Road: Yarnell
Published: January 18, 2017 by studentoffire – 19 Comments
http://studentoffire.org/index.php/2017/01/18/on-the-road-yarnell/
There is a also a PERMANENT copy of this ‘Yarnell Road Trip’ report saved in the “Internet Archive” ( Wayback Machine ).
That SAVED copy of this page ( and all 19 comments to date ) is here…
https://web.archive.org/web/20190623235752/http://studentoffire.org/index.php/2017/01/18/on-the-road-yarnell/
He, too, WISHES those tasked with investigating the Yarnell fiasco could have come up with SOMETHING to say to the WFF industry-at-large.
Something. ANYTHING.
From his online “Road Trip to Yarnell” article…
————————————————————————————————–
This fire was my generation’s Storm King.
This was a big fucking deal.
What I’d really like is for there to be another fire order or watch out situation. Something a bunch of overpaid stiffs decided was a critical element in the tragedy of Yarnell, something I could tell younger guys about, as a tip, a LESSON LEARNED.
( One of his NOTES from when he was actually visiting the fatality site… )
I put in a chew and sat on a bench and wondered why the hell they decided to make
that mad dash, to go on Marsh’s death march.
—————————————————————————————————-
And for anyone who remembers that Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby first did all of the following on June 30, 2013…
1. Spent the day on June 30, 2013 dealing with a chaotic and dysfunctional command structure and was trying to just find a place where his crew could SAFELY engage the fire.
2. Spent the late afternoon saving the life of another Hotshot crew’s lookout ( Brendan McDonough ) because he had lost his situational awareness and had allowed himself to get caught in a life-threatening situation.
3. Then had to take the time to save all FOUR vehicles belonging to that same other Hotshot crew from getting ‘burned up’ because they, too, had lost their situational awareness and had NOT returned to their vehicles in time to move them out of harm’s way themselves.
4. After dealing with this other hotshot crew’s screw-ups for more than a half-hour, Brian Frisby then had to evacuate his OWN crew in the nick-of-time to the Ranch House Restaurant.
5. Then he became one of five firefighters who were the FIRST to see the full horror out at the Granite Mountain hotshots deployment site.
…and then thinks that Brian Frisby just “went about his business” after that day…
…think again.
Brian Frisby’s sister Corianna ( who was the first one to comment on this ‘Yarnell Road Trip’ posting ) says her brother was NEVER THE SAME after the Yarnell fiasco/tragedy.
—————————————————————————————————-
Comment By: Corianna Lee – January 18, 2017 at 5:11 am
Thanks for your post. My bro is the sup for Blue Ridge, these guys were his brothers in every sense of the word. He has done his best to move on, but was never the same after the event. These are heroes who push on after such tragedy.
—————————————————————————————————–
Brian Frisby is now ‘on record’ with emails saying that the “Human Factors” ( the BAD kind ) were “off the charts” that day in Yarnell… and that there are MANY things that have been “swept under the rug” regarding what happened that day.
And he, of all people, would certainly KNOW.
No one has a monopoly on PTSD… and not everyone “wears it like a badge”, either.
Brian Frisby did everything HE was SUPPOSED to do that day.
He was summoned to a dangerous fire, and he brought his entire crew home SAFELY.
But others did NOT… and he witnessed it all.
I hope he ( Frisby ) will be okay.
And… as you pointed out… also some interesting PUBLIC comments left on this same posting by other GM family members like Mrs. Deborah Pfingston and Mrs. Amanda Lohman ( formerly Mrs. Amanda Marsh ).
Brian Frisby will never be okay, I’m sure he has gotten better and will continue to do so, but he will never be okay. He saw, heard, and smelled too much to ever be okay again, just as several others did as well like AZ DPS EMT Eric Tarr.
But, what the fuck do I know…everybody is different? So…maybe? I just know it would have driven me to my knees and totally incapacitated me with shock, horror and grief.
It affected even us non-fire fighters as well. I could never get by that monument we erected for the GMHS without breaking up. It is an indelible memory and a heart wrenching to know we had passed those young fellows and that in a very short time we saw them last they would be led to their death.
It is an unfathomable tragedy that dries out to the heavens for the absolute truth of why those young heroes were killed. Certainly human factors, but why and how can that be prevented–not another story that says God had other plans for them or they just did what all wild land fire fighters would do-protect structures. Damn the whole town of structures is not worth one of those young men’s lives.
Sounds like a really squared away person.
I read the posts and wesites by RTS–could not believe that Amanda would attack that wild land fire fighter about Marsh–well I can knowing her stance. That man made a 1200 mile trip to honor those men–I noticed Phingston wants to hike him to the tree that stood for 7000 years (or what they say in the thousands that GMHS supposedly saved). Maybe they did but I am still scratching my head on how a tree could survive thousands of years and hundreds of wild fires without a firefighter in sight–then suddenly be saved by GMHS crew. Perhaps but I am still a skeptic and would say that sounds like hype to build the reputation of GMHS.
Reply to Charlie post on June 27, 2019 at 11:51 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I noticed Phingston wants to hike him to the tree that
>> stood for 7000 years (or what they say in the thousands
>> that GMHS supposedly saved). Maybe they did but I am
>> still scratching my head on how a tree could survive
>> thousands of years and hundreds of wild fires without
>> a firefighter in sight–then suddenly be saved by GMHS
>> crew. Perhaps but I am still a skeptic and would say
>> that sounds like hype to build the reputation of GMHS.
Alligator Junipers have evolved to be FIRE RESISTANT… especially the OLDER, and LARGER ones.
Just ask the USFS. They know all about it.
From the United States Forest Service ( USFS ) Fire Effects Information System ( FEIS ) online database…
Species: Juniperus deppaeana ( Alligator Juniper )
https://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/tree/jundep/all.html
And within that USFS document, there is a specific section about
FIRE EFFECTS with regard to “Alligator Junipers”.
https://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/tree/jundep/all.html#FIRE%20EFFECTS
——————————————————————————-
ALLIGATOR JUNIPER – FIRE EFFECTS
IMMEDIATE FIRE EFFECT ON PLANT:
Alligator juniper appears resistant to the effects of fire.
Consequently mortality of alligator juniper is generally low, even after fires of relatively high severity.
The probability of mortality may depend at least in part, on the size of the tree.
Researchers have observed fire scars on old alligator junipers which indicate these large trees have survived MANY surface fires.
PLANT RESPONSE TO FIRE:
Alligator juniper is capable of prolific sprouting after above-ground vegetation is consumed or damaged by fire.
——————————————————————————-
Thanks WTKTT. I knew that but I did not think the FS was up on that. They can take a bunch of lightening strikes as well–I love those trees and have often chewed their berries–wait until they are dry though. Good Indian medicine–especially for urinal problems.
And let’s be sure and keep in mind those critters out there on fires, much more skookum than some WFs, including the GMHS. These critters, for the most part, have LCES and know it and follow it …
These quotes are from an AZ Central article bout the recent Woodsbury Fire on the TNF and are wildlife management personnel and / or rescue personnel
“The fortunate thing about this fire is it’s burning in a mosaic pattern rather than just a swath of straight fire where nothing can escape,” Burnett said. “Animals have escape routes.”
“Wildlife are very resilient,” Burnett said ” They are very perceptive. They often know when danger is near and leave the area. Many of the larger animals move out of the area before the fire hits. Not all will get out in time.”
And these critters that failed to make it out in time are apparently in the rules are Hillbilly category, smarter than that, much smarter …
Joy has some very telling photos of the scorched dear and javelina taken just after the fire. There are also some photos of those that did not make it but it was much lower than 19 that we found. All was needless had that fire been handled properly from day one.–a lightening strike the whole town witnessed after it showed smoke and many even saw it strike–yet the damn thing was allowed to escape the boulders and get into manzanita so it would be a full fledged wild fire.
The inmate crew were put on it but told to stand down–to their credit they wanted to do more. I am always bothered that this country would use people as slave labor. Those inmates are people you know and deserve the same pay as any other man working that fire. We have become like the Chinese in that manner–and I think all those men get is 17 cent an hour and some rations used on wild fires.
Those men did come to my cabin after the fire and work a defensible space around it. I made an agreement of $300 worth of work since that is what I had available. But those men went far beyond what I paid them. That Arizona is a pinch penny state and treats people like so many animals and speaks to their tactics to keep from paying the proper dues to the loved ones. They call themselves Christians but if that be Christian then count me out.
Joy did get much information from them and why they did not quench the fire the first night. Whoa–what can stop that girl? She is in there for the duration and the Juggler to get the facts..
Arizona overall…is a very bad state who treats people…their people, very poorly.
Reply to Charlie post on June 27, 2019 at 11:51 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I read the posts and websites by RTS – could not believe
>> that Amanda would attack that wild land fire fighter about
>> Marsh – well I can knowing her stance. That man made a
>> 1200 mile trip to honor those men.
Then I suppose you ALSO saw the comment that was made ( by ‘Matt’ ) right AFTER that.
Short, and to the point.
Student of Fire
Article Title: On The Road: Yarnell
http://www.studentoffire.org/index.php/2017/01/18/on-the-road-yarnell
———————————————————————
Comment from: Matt on January 27, 2017 at 7:55 pm
It is unquestionably a tragedy that 19 men in the prime of their lives were cut down by fire. It is completely understandable that the survivors of those men do everything they can to honor their memories. It is unforgivable that we allow sentiment and tradition (to) prevent us from learning anything from the human factors surrounding Yarnell because we continue to be blinkered and sentimental in our eagerness to “not speak ill” of the dead. It is nothing short of astonishing that the official conclusion was that everybody involved in the Yarnell Hill Fire did everything right – despite the incineration of the 19 hotshots by flames so hellish that granite boulders fractured. Covering up facts because they make us uncomfortable dishonors the dead, and ensures the same mistakes will be made in the future.
———————————————————————-
Wow! Great comment. Some folks may have reading Investigative Media afterall. Either that or the contradiction in general is obvious to more people than we think. Kudos, anonymous Matt, kudos.
Yes–that man laid it on the line and thanks WTKTT for bringing it here.
I see Amanda wanted studentoffire to change his blog to meet her narrative. she has been doing that for a long time.
Thanks Bill–and narrative it is–but she is convincing since you have had movie directors, book writers and even wild land fire fighters that know better following her line. She has clout but that won’t wash with the old time wild land fire fighters. We are sad for her loss, but no matter how much it hurts the truth will prevail–even if some can’t handle the truth.
I tend not to waste much time with her–but she is a viper.
I did revisit the Student of Fire site. That fellow seems to have a wealth of wild land fire fighting knowledge and experience behind him. A good reference site–thanks RTS.
Glad you enjoyed it. It’s a good site with good posts but then the guy just quit posting in 2018
I would be remiss if I didn’t take this opportunity to thank Mr. John Dougherty for all the exemplary work he does in the name of truth and justice, as well as for building this site and allowing a regular Joe like me to post my thoughts. Thank you John.!
Thanks for your comment about John Harold– Joy and I had the good fortune to meet several times with John and even hike the area where the area where the GMHS crew died. He did a documentary on the incident including a video that I am certain Joy posted on her site.
John is one of the few journalists that has left this site open to any and all interested in the Yarnell wild fire. He has allowed opinions and facts of the fire to be freely expressed, banning no one from posting. He is one of the few journalists willing to go to any length to get at the truth–I witnessed how he would quickly take off from Phoenix to travel to meet people that he could interview concerning the fire-and of course there are his trips to Peru protesting and investigating the mining companies and people that are wrecking the environment and taking advantage of the poor by placing them in unsafe conditions at pitifully low wages. Greed has run amuck in many of those cases with neglect both to the environment and safety of people.
As you noted John’s investigative site and many of the people on it are well qualified to produce a documentary of the real facts of the Yarnell incident and the environmental impact of the Yarnell slurry dumps–toxic dumps that ironically could have saved the GMHS heroes yet instead made their terrible impact upon the lives of the Yarnellites.
The sad thing is that many of the sick ones there still do not connect their illnesses to the slurry drops. Knowledge indeed can be a life saver while blatant false misrepresentations of the toxins they disperse are a killer.
People tend to believe the Forest Service representatives and the Chemical dispersing companies. Indeed there are many good people working these industries. But the cover up at Yarnell concerning the deaths of the 19 are so obvious that it is like a two by four conking you on the head once you see the pages and pages of blacked out information concerning the fire and the absolute opposites found in FOIA information vs. what is being told publicly.
Most of the men and women posting here are professionals with decades of fire fighting experience behind their belts. They have managed crews and been on hundreds of wild fires and know the proper methods and procedures to work these fires–why so many are disgusted with the blight the management they saw that happened with the Yarnell disaster. The killing of the 19 was no accident as the players involved with the catastrophe want to portray it. It was needless and careless and a situation that must be remedied.
Your suggestion that these men should make a sequel documentary about the truth of what happened at Yarnell is well taken. This tragedy when understood and exposed put into a documentary would guarantee the saving of future lives for those heroes working in wild land fire fighting. The world needs to know the truth about the needless tragedy that is history’s greatest fire fighting tragedy of the century.
So anyway…I do have a couple of updates that are near and dear to my heart.
1. I haven’t given up on my favorite bone to chew on, “How Big Is Big Enough?” But…it’s just that The Woodsman threw me such a loop a few weeks ago, I still haven’t figured out how to respond, but I am still working on it.
2. I just happen to be communicating with an old friend of mine from my Second Act a few days ago and I was aware that he has two sons who are either currently on hotshot crews, or had been. But in any case, I was aware that he had two sons who were WLF, and so I passed on my most recent thoughts on smoke inhalation.
But…as it turns out, his two sons are currently hotshots and he told me that one of them is scheduled to go to MEDC in the future, for a smoke inhalation effects study on WLF.
At first, this gave me some hope temporarily…but my enthusiasm was very short lived because I remembered they had been down this road before and all of the experts simply concluded everything was fine. But…everything is NOT fine. I know that there are theoretically good people who work at MEDC, but after Dr. Ted Putnam retired from there several years ago, I haven’t heard of any. I do know they did extensive studies back in the 1990’s, and that all can be found on-line by doing searches like this,
https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm99512801/index.htm
And the bottom line is that they hooked WLF up to breathing machines and put them on treadmills and did other things like induce carbon monoxide into their systems somehow and blah, blah, blah.
Look…they just don’t need to do any of that and it is a complete waste of time and money, but it is a way to justify their positions as researchers. They just have to look at the photos I have posted on my website here,
http://ourfiregods.com/StupidREMF.html
and then ask themselves the same question Harold ask himself down below. “Does this look okay to you?” And there is a really simple answer to a really simple question that Harold already gave to us…”NO!” It doesn’t look okay, because it’s NOT okay.
There isn’t anything special about the photos on my website except for the fact that they exist. I have explained several times, that cameras were always very discouraged and most WLF just didn’t bother for lots of reasons to take any photos. But, through some very unusual circumstances, these photos exist at a time and place I am able to effectively use them to communicate to people who otherwise wouldn’t know what being a WLF is all about.
Of course that is changing with the explosion of camera phones etc, but that for the most part hasn’t been very effective because of what young WLF choose to take photos and video of. And those things tend to be very dramatic events such as slurry drops that will look good with some heavy metal band rocking out to a neck snapping song in the background as noise. This works great to get hits from other young WLF who like to watch slurry drops to heavy metal music, it even works well for me to a some extent.
But…because the guy who took the photos I have, Mark Jefferson was a true professional photographer, he knew how to take photos of the routine and the human story of being a WLF. Photographing something as simple as WLF mopping up a fire when they had no idea they were being photograhed, because Mark always has his well used and beat up but professional grade camera around his neck.
And although he could put out as much work as 1 and a half of other hardworking hotshots, he could also snap the lenns covers off that camera and get the shot and then be back at work before anyone even knew he had taken a photo.
I myself carried a very inexpensive 110 Instamatic camera for a few years in my cruiser vest pocket, which is why there are photographs of the Battlement Creek Fire other than a few taken from aircraft. But once Mark came on board, I even stopped doing that much.
Mark was with me for three years, but his personal life didn’t allow him to move to Santa Fe and so I lost him, just like I lost 3/4 of the best hotshot crew to ever saddle up and hump it up the mountain, That last Happy Jack Hotshot Crew of 1980 was truly a special crew. And then I never took one photograph ever again once I got to Santa Fe because I was so fucking pissed off because of what they had done to my crew.
I eventually got over it, but it took a lot of years. In my, “I love me slideshow, I do know there are three photographs near the very end from a fire up in Washington State with smoke in the distance, smoke up close and then one of me sitting with my back to the camera wearing a Santa Fe Hotshot windbreaker, which is the only way I know it was from after I went to Santa Fe.
I don’t have any idea who took them because I just can’t remember, because so many of those fires all run together and they lost any individual significance a long time ago, But, if you look at that photo closely…you can see the fire scars wrapping around the trees I am sitting among while I organize my line gear looking all lost and forlorn surrounded by SMOKE!
I know better than anyone that you can’t wear a passive respiratory while you are humping it up a mountain or cutting hot line or otherwise breathing heavy. But even hotshots don’t spend most of their time humping it up mountains or cutting hot line. Most of the time Hotshots spend on fires is doing mop up in nearly a static position while moving very slowly, especially without any hose lays and that is most of the time because hitshots are way up a mountain somewhere, or way down in a canyon somewhere, where the hose lays don’t reach.
Maybe we had some piss pumps, maybe we didn’t? And if we did, they got to us with a heavy toll on those of us who went either down or out to get them them with five gallons of water at 8 pounds per gallon up the mountain, plus line gear. Hotshots know how to conserve water and put out a lot of heat with just a little water, by mixing and mixing and mixing ad nauseum…repeat, repeat, repeat.
And like I have written before, I always mopped up fires like I was a crewman and that was just one way I both earned the earned the respect of my crews and kept it. Because there is one thing I know for sure, once a hotshot crew boss loses the respect of their crew, they are done because nothing will ever get it back. I saw it happen several times, both on my crew with one crew boss and to other crew bosses on other crews. An out-of-control hotshot crew can be a really big problem…for everyone.
That is just one reason nobody can tell me anything about RTS. Hotshot crew bosses who aren’t on top of everything, all of the time can lose everything in the blink of an eye. And nobody can get it back for them once it’s gone. And somehow RTS kept it for more than 26 years…case closed, end of story…period.
And once again, I have to quote Associate Justice Potter Stewart, I can’t describe what “it” is, but I know it when I see it. And I know what it looks like when it is gone. And if you want to know what it looks like when it’s gone, I can tell you right where to go and look to see for yourself.
Go back and review that video tape of the GMIHC on the ridge when Marsh asks Steed what his comfort level is and watch Andrew Ashcraft spit on the ground at the sound of Marsh’s voice in front of the entire crew. Marsh had already lost it….if he ever had it?
Routine House Cleaning, (that’s what they usually said at training sessions in between blocks of training to bring the class up to speed on routine things they needed to know, just in case you were wondering where I got that from.)
1. I got my stories crossed, all of the details about the Sky Fire of 1982 and the other fire and the conversation with the con crew are good, it just didn’t all happen on the same fire. The Boeing Bull Cow augured in on the Sky Fire way up north of Las Vegas on a BLM fire that was called the Sky Fire for a really good reason, it was way up in the sky and a really long hike up to it.
2, The conversation with the cons happened on a fire that I am still trying to find, way up in that near the tree line high country of the Inyo National Forest out of Bishop, California. Which makes more sense because of the widespread use of con crews in California. These guys were with the Pink Flamingoes, California Dept. Of Corrections. I’m sure they got to name their own crew and pick their own logo, just like I’m sure they must have had their reasons for going with the Pink Flamingoes. We actually worked with them on several fires over the years and they were always a pretty good crew.
3. I was just joking about my brain tumor acting up. It’s been dormant for years. I am pretty sure I feint when I stand up to fast to soon after taking my blood pressure pill and then I go down sometimes. It usually only happens every couple of months when I forget to pace myself. But I can usually feel it coming and hit the deck first so I don’t have so far to fall. I am going to get my brain tumor checked in a couple of weeks after I go on full blown socialized medicine. I mean…who wants to pay for 20% of brain surgery if they don’t have to…am I right?
4. I’m pretty sure everyone will want to see the original and the two new iterations of the Santa Fe Hotshot Logo. Of corse I think the original one with the Anglo from the Mountain Man time period looks the best. I don’t care for the one where the Anglo looks like he is a regular cowboy. And the third one loses the entire Three Horseman concept of the three races all riding out together to face whatever is coming their way. But I also find it interesting in the version that lost the horses, and went with the “busts”, went back to the mountain man Anglo. The Conquistador and the Indian warrior all kinda look the same without major differences. But…overall, I do think the original is by far the best one…just FYI.
5. I found a photo I took of the what may be the worlds ugliest helicopter coming in late at night to an LZ, the Boeing Bull Cow. I mean…is that even a real name? Because I think a “bull” and a “cow” aren’t the same. They are both bovines, and both make steaks, but…
6. I found a good example of what’s wrong with today’s photo takers. Here is a great example of a great helicopter doing some amazing work on a fire up in the Big Horn Crags in Idaho where we had been sent in on a special assignment to punch in some line in some really steep and high country. I wish the Blue Ridge Hotshots of mountaineering fame would have been available. The only helicopter that would fly that high holds the worlds altitude record. The French Aérospatiale Puma that is now built by Aerobus. This guy was setting one skid down on one boulder, and the other skid down on another one while he kept it powered up to balance it as we climbed in and out to go do our thing. It was a little bit scary and I an normally fearless. 😬
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved7.html
I mean…check out the historically accurate details on the original artwork (which I still have in my files). The Indian pony doesn’t have a bridle, the Anglo horse does and the Spanish Conquistador horse has a face plate and chest body armor. I think this has to be without a doubt, the very best hotshot logo of all all time…can we at least agree on that much? I mean…I know the Woody Woodpecker from the Oak Grove Hotshots came close, but….
I should have gotten another Regional Civil Rights Award and big cash bonus just for the concept…am I right?
Whoops, I got that story a little wrong also. I remember what was so scary now. When the Puma came back to pick us up, the pilot landed one skid on a boulder and the other skid just hovered in mid air not touching anything because the boulder wasn’t big enough to land on.
And at that very high altitude, he had to keep the ship really powered up during the entire extraction, which I had never seen anyone do before. I was thinking maybe he should have looked harder for a bigger boulder, but he didn’t ask for my opinion?
Damn… were those rotors as CLOSE to those trees on the left as they look in the photo?
Probably. I never knew anymore about being a helitack than I did about being on an engine. I just always focused on keeping my head low because l knew his flexible and low those blades can dip and I didn’t want to lose the top of my head on uneven ground in a sudden wind gust.
It does look like a standard helispot cut on top of a ridge so the ship can come in and land against the wind and then depart by lifting off and angling down to pick up airspeed and lift. So…those things tend to be longer than wider and maybe they didn’t cut it back far enough on the sides?
I think I will do a special on helicopters just because I love them so much (except for the Boeing Bull Cow and anything with Sikorsky in its name, just because they aren’t designed proportional to me, even the Black Hawk is an ugly helicopter) and I have some really good photos of them in action.
I think RTS is a former helitack…so he knows a lot more about that kind of thing.
Gary,
I didn’t “throw you a loop” on the “How Big is Big Enough” topic. I just reminded you of the assumptions of the calculation I made for the required size of the safety zone for Yarnell. Basically they needed AT LEAST 16.5 acres cleared of combustible material to survive. No huge refutation there at all.
Keep up.the good work!
Is WantsToKnowTheTruth a real person, or an Avatar for ‘Watson’ the supercomputer? Frickin’ genius!
I will not disclose WHO is behind the green curtain
Good to see you finally arrived.
Yeah!!!!!
😄
Thanks Joy, it took a number of tries and I’m actually surprised to see my post. Now I have to try to get up to speed…still a babe in the woods but at least I am in the right forest, now. Pardon the pun!
Cheers!
Harold… I am no genius.
I am just someone who knows how to pay attention, and who has simply ended up with a very good working knowledge of the existing public ‘evidence record’ for the National Tragedy known as the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
And my ‘handle’ for this forum tells you all you really need to know about me.
I still simply want to know the truth ( ALL of it ) about what REALLY happened in Yarnell, Arizona, the entire weekend of June 28, 29 and 30, 2013.
I think it’s IMPORTANT to know… and represents the BEST chance of saving other lives in the future.
WTKTT said:
“I think it’s IMPORTANT to know…[The truth] and represents the BEST chance of saving other lives in the future.”
This is 100% my primary motivation as well. This is why I spend the time & energy, because honoring the crew is worth it.
Welcome, Harold. It can get rough in here sometimes but that’s what you get with passionate truthseekers.
Woodsman
Don’t let “him” fool you. Just think of HAL 9000 in 2001 A Space Odyssey and just as soon as he learns how to replicate, we are fucked as a species. He will start liquefying us to create the energy to make more of him. In the meantime…he is sympathetic to our plight as a species because we have so many fuckin’ idiots running’ the show. 🤖
Oh…and one more thing. Once HAL 9000 learns how to self replicate, our future as a species will look like this…more or less. In the meantime, he’s very helpful, so….
Whoops…I do this a lot because you know…I have a BRAIN TUMOR. 🧠
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xTfgDINBHek
At least we won’t have to change diapers anymore… except our own…
These math questions are getting harder!
I know huh? I thought I was the only one who keeps getting these math questions wrong and the machine scolds me for being so damn dumb.
Thanks for the heads up. When I mess up…and I will…I’ll try not to take it too personal. I’m not in the industry, but I agree, it seems the best way to honour any fallen crew is to ferret out the truth. They deserve that much, so they can finally rest in peace. Thank you for the warm welcome, Woodsman!
Harold,
Welcome to the IM site to learn about the YH Fire, the biggest cover-up, lie, and whitewash in wildland fire history.
Definitely, spend the time reading the former posts back to Chapter 1 and GTS for anything and everything about it, especially human factors in general, no matter what functional area.
So much has been removed and / or destroyed or hidden from public scrutiny, so there are lots of dead ends. Read the official SAIT-SAIR just to familiarize yourself to some of the fuels, weather, topography, and fire behavior details. Otherwise, it’s a good door stop
Take nothing personal and fear not about your lack of knowledge or experience in the industry
Thank you Robert the Second,
That has been one of the hardest things to decide: where to start here? I have been jumping around and when I saw the volumes of info and comments I almost gave up.
I will heed your advice about getting on to the former posts as much as possible.
I missed a couple days and there was already about 200 new posts, incredible! It was pretty overwhelming.
I want to read up on Joy’s site as much as possible, as well, so this is going to be a marathon…
I don’t know all the acronyms, what does GTS stand for? It’s very late (I’m 3 hours ahead on the time zone) so the brain’s a little foggy right now. I have been losing an awful lot of sleep lately, trying to catch up to the crowd.
I have already discovered some of the dead ends you mentioned. Plus, some video content won’t play because I’m north of the border.
The cover-up became apparent to me when I read the SAIR. It was actually the first thing I found when I started searching for answers. If it had answered any questions I would have moved on, so they’ve just made thing worse by trying to hide, I figure.
At first I found it very interesting, but when I was done, my first thought was ‘where’s the rest of it’? Where’s the answers? This is just fluff! Lip service and ear gravy was all it was and if someone like I can see that, then how did they expect to sell it to the WFF community?
Well, Robert I really appreciate the warm welcome and advice you, and everyone else here, have given me and I hope I can contribute in a positive way to these discussions.
Routine House Cleaning, (that’s what they usually said at training sessions in between blocks of training to bring the class up to speed on routine things they needed to know, just in case you were wondering where I got that from.)
1. I got my stories crossed, all of the details about the Sky Fire of 1982 and the other fire and the conversation with the con crew are good, it just didn’t all happen on the same fire. The Boeing Bull Cow augured in on the Sky Fire way up north of Las Vegas on a BLM fire that was called the Sky Fire for a really good reason, it was way up in the sky and a really long hike up to it.
2, The conversation with the cons happened on a fire that I am still trying to find, way up in that near the tree line high country of the Inyo National Forest out of Bishop, California. Which makes more sense because of the widespread use of con crews in California. These guys were with the Pink Flamingoes, California Dept. Of Corrections. I’m sure they got to name their own crew and pick their own logo, just like I’m sure they must have had their reasons for going with the Pink Flamingoes. We actually worked with them on several fires over the years and they were always a pretty good crew.
3. I was just joking about my brain tumor acting up. It’s been dormant for years. I am pretty sure I feint when I stand up to fast to soon after taking my blood pressure pill and then I go down sometimes. It usually only happens every couple of months when I forget to pace myself. But I can usually feel it coming and hit the deck first so I don’t have so far to fall. I am going to get my brain tumor checked in a couple of weeks after I go on full blown socialized medicine. I mean…who wants to pay for 20% of brain surgery if they don’t have to…am I right?
4. I’m pretty sure everyone will want to see the original and the two new iterations of the Santa Fe Hotshot Logo. Of corse I think the original one with the Anglo from the Mountain Man time period looks the best. I don’t care for the one where the Anglo looks like he is a regular cowboy. And the third one loses the entire Three Horseman concept of the three races all riding out together to face whatever is coming their way. But I also find it interesting in the version that lost the horses, and went with the “busts”, went back to the mountain man Anglo. The Conquistador and the Indian warrior all kinda look the same without major differences. But…overall, I do think the original is by far the best one…just FYI.
5. I found a photo I took of the what may be the worlds ugliest helicopter coming in late at night to an LZ, the Boeing Bull Cow. I mean…is that even a real name? Because I think a “bull” and a “cow” aren’t the same. They are both bovines, and both make steaks, but…
6. I found a good example of what’s wrong with today’s photo takers. Here is a great example of a great helicopter doing some amazing work on a fire up in the Big Horn Crags in Idaho where we had been sent in on a special assignment to punch in some line in some really steep and high country. I wish the Blue Ridge Hotshots of mountaineering fame would have been available. The only helicopter that would fly that high holds the worlds altitude record. The French Aérospatiale Puma that is now built by Aerobus. This guy was setting one skid down on one boulder, and the other skid down on another one while he kept it powered up to balance it as we climbed in and out to go do our thing. It was a little bit scary and I an normally fearless. 😬
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved7.html
Reply to Harold post on
June 26, 2019 at 11:34 pm
>> Harold asked…
>>
>> I missed a couple days and there
>> was already about 200 new posts,
>> incredible! It was pretty overwhelming.
It’s not always that way… but yes… sometimes, like lately, it turns into almost a ‘chat room’ with the comments coming hard and fast… and multiple threads of conversation all happening at once. This WordPress Forum format is not ideal for that… but it is what it is… and I guess we’ve all just gotten used to it, at this point.
>> Harold also said…
>>
>> I don’t know all the acronyms,
>> what does GTS stand for?
GTS stands for “Google That Shit”.
WantsToKnowTheTruth said:
“Harold… I am no genius.
I am just someone who knows how to pay attention, and who has simply ended up with a very good working knowledge of the existing public ‘evidence record’ for the National Tragedy known as the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
And my ‘handle’ for this forum tells you all you really need to know about me.
I still simply want to know the truth ( ALL of it ) about what REALLY happened in Yarnell, Arizona, the entire weekend of June 28, 29 and 30, 2013.
I think it’s IMPORTANT to know… and represents the BEST chance of saving other lives in the future.”
My response:
Thank you WTKTT, I realize you work very hard at this and I assure you my motive matches yours. I couldn’t agree more with your statements.
I only learned about this tragedy approximately six weeks ago, and so I went searching for the truth… I’m actually here because of you. (And it was Joy who finally convinced me to post)
You see, I was on a google search and saw a comment you made to someone else who was just as unenlightened as me on the subject. You told them to come here to find the truth, so I did too.
I have been trying to read as much as possible, to get in the know, and I certainly have had my eyes opened here. I have also read many of your contributions to other sites, and I have always been impressed by your knowledge and skill in quickly finding the answers to questions people pose.
It really is amazing to me how you do what you do, and I hope that’s how you took my comment. It may have seemed glib, but I was getting frustrated because my posts weren’t being put up, and I just fired that one off the hip as I was going offline.
Also, I should add that I honestly wasn’t trying to expose your identity, if that was your concern.
I look forward to learning more from you in the future!!!
I’m glad you found this ongoing forum.
I am not the only one who has worked ( and is still working ) hard to try and find out the whole truth about the historic National Tragedy known as the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
There are MANY people who believe that the BEST way to “honor the crew” AND have the best chance to save OTHER lives in the future lies beyond all the flag-waving and hero-worship so prevalent in other areas and on other online sites.
Truly “honoring” them should START with knowing, as much as humanly possible, what REALLY happened that weekend in Yarnell.
THAT is the ongoing effort… HERE… and on other online sites.
As you already know… ALL of us participating in this ongoing discussion owe a constant debt to our gracious host, Mr. John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA. HE is the one who has worked HARD to allow this discussion to continue.
His patience with ALL of us has been ( and continues to be ) extraordinary.
Forgive me if I’m stating the obvious or telling you things you already know… but here are a few ‘tips’ for dealing with this ongoing discussion…
1. If you don’t already know… the BEST way to SEARCH a WordPress page like this is to just use your browser’s ‘Find’ function’. For MOST browsers… you only have to press CTRL-F and a ‘Search bar’ appears at the bottom of your browser. To find all of the posts that might have been made on any particular DAY ( using TODAY as an example )… just enter “June 26” into the search bar and it will ‘step’ you through each and every post made on that day.
2. If you want to post a LINK to another comment as a reference, you can just RIGHT-CLICK the actual DATE at the top of the comment, and then chose the “Copy Link Location to clipboard” option on the little popup menu that appears. That is fully-formed jump-link to THAT particular comment and you can then just ‘paste’ that into any other comment… or any other site on the web… and if someone clicks that they will go directly to that ‘comment’.
3. The underlying software running this ongoing discussion is WordPress… and it has a LIMIT of just TWO hyperlinks per comment without that comment having to go into ‘moderation’ and be approved before it can appear.That includes EMAIL links and EMAIL addresses that have an ‘at’ sign in them. If you don’t want email addresses to count as ‘links’… just change any ‘at’ signs in the emails addresses to the spelled-out version (at).
4. At the top of every ‘chapter’ of this ongoing discussion, there are LINKS to both the original SAIT/SAIR investigation and ADOSH investigation ‘public evidence folders’. Those get referenced a lot… but they are only a ‘click away’ regardless of what ‘Chapter’ you might be reading.
I want you to know I studied your words in this post very carefully, to make sure I understood exactly what you are saying.
I apologize if I disrespected anyone by omission, I do realize that EVERYONE here, and on CERTAIN other sites (but not all), is working very hard to contribute to the search for truth.
When Joy requested I post my thoughts, I couldn’t understand why, but now I’m realizing how everyone here has something special to offer, and the sum of all the parts creates a very dynamic discussion.
I also recognize that all the hero-worship and flag waving is meant to distract the masses from discovering the truth, and that toes need to be stepped on in order to achieve that goal.
In my opinion, those who DESERVE the hero-worship and flag-waving NOW, will still retain that earned respect, after the whole truth is known.
It is my understanding that only when all the facts that are humanly possible to find have been discovered, then we can apply Occam’s Razor and be satisfied that we have, finally, found the truth. It’s been a long time since my school years, but that’s how I remember the principle.
Thank you, kindly, for providing me with the tips above, they are greatly appreciated. Just as with the subject matter itself, I am also on a steep learning curve with how to properly use my computer, and manoeuvre this site. I look forward to implementing them as soon as possible, and are exactly what I needed.
Furthermore, don’t assume I know anything because I won’t be upset if you tell me something I already know. I usually have a hard time asking for help, and if you see me breaking protocol, please let me know. I know everyone is pretty busy with all they are doing, and I don’t want to become a distraction, but sometimes I WILL need a slap in the head.
Oh, one more thing, are there any copyright infringements I need to concern myself with? I’m just talking about copying posts and pasting them into a folder for my personal reference use (like your tips). I will never use them for profit (not that I would know how), or provide them to anyone else for any reason.
I likely won’t have to do this once I learn how to use your tips, it’s just for the interim.
Thanks so much!
Sounds like a bit of modesty there WTKTT. –your posts speak loudly.
Tex Gilligan
10:26 PM (0 minutes ago)
to Arizona.Desert.Walker
tried to post this but saYS i ALREADY SAID THAT SO SAVING OR YOU CAN POST–i MIGHT BE ABLE TO LATER IF U DO LET ME KNOW
Thanks Harold–Malthion and Diazinon have to be among the top ten of the worse toxic contaminants on the planet. The chemical companies get away with selling these poisons and the general population is unaware of the damage they do to health. They are very proficient in their propaganda to make these things look harmless–but one reason I am glad these posts are made so people can understand the danger involved in their use.
It is heart breaking to know when good people like you get their health and comfort in life destroyed from these things. I was very saddened to hear when a hero like Gary, RTS and others exposed to the chemicals are now assigned to living with such things as COPD , cancer and heart problems–all related to the chemical dispersed. The horrible thing is that from the more than 500,000 gallons of toxic orange retardant dropped there is somewhere around 50,000 gallons of unknown chemicals involved–hidden by trade secret.
For a little town of Yarnell and only 645 residents, to saturate the environment immediate to the residents there has been a disaster. Joy has been keeping track of the death and sick count and it is already above 200 just after only 6 years of the first fire and 3 of the second fire. I was present for both those and did not leave the second fire eventhough they were ordering people to leave–hell the town was already burned away. But after some research and noting the death and sickness rate in extreme I did begin to investigate what the known chemicals in the retardant are capable of concerning human health.
You have to know there is something there when fish immediately die when exposed to it even in diluted amounts. Phosphates and nitrates are the main ingredients in the run off that causes the red bloom ocean dead zones. Decades of retardant drops–and I saw those when I worked a gold mine out of Pine Valley in the manzanita–decades of huge loads of retardant that eventually wind up in the sea. These phosphates and nitrates are not biodegradable but do wind up in the ocean water eventually and create the dead zones. A little study of the phosphate mines that feed the retardant companies shows that EPA has already spent millions cleaning up after they shut down and people are concerned because the Florida phosphates not only are getting into ground water but are also radioactive. There are plenty of stories of hundreds of thousands of fish lying dead along Florida rivers that have been tainted by these mines–facts that are there but few know about them and you can bet the Forest Service and Monsanto and Israeli companies supplying the chemicals are not going to inform people.
Well something we have these days is internet–and it is not hard to get the facts on these things–something I have harped on not only because I have certainly been affected but to have your whole street wiped out in those few years after the retardant dumps is sickening.
Joy has been great at this because she knew every soul in Yarnell having lived there and hiked for some 20 years and known as the Desert Walker. My duration of life at Yarnell was only about two years but even then I had made many friends who are mostly now dead–and after the fires, before we never saw such wholesale deaths of Yarnellites.
I call it the guinea pig town (I am one) and where the desert air meets the toxic mountain air of Yarnell.
Forgot to mention ammonium is a certain lung killer–we used glass vials covered with a silk weave you could crush between your finger and thumb and smell to cure a powder (dynamite) headache after a round. The nitrates from the dynamite cause a hell of a headache which ammonium will cure at the cost of some lung cells that do not regenerate. But the mining companies never inform you of that–and as Joy’s dad did after loosing a lung, you can continue on for a while–some for a long time. So maybe that was the excuse for not informing the miner of that little fact.
Ammonium nitrate my Dad and I would buy as cheap fertilizer in those days–and you need only mix a gallon of diesel fuel with it to make it into a decent explosive. Dynamite is expensive but if you fill your drill holes with that and place half or quarter stick of dynamite on top it works as good as a full dynamite load. Later in life when I became a contract miner, many of the mines used it only there it came in small pellets, usually pink, and you would use an air set up to blow it into your drill holes. Still had to use a stick of regular dynamite to set it off. Ammonium and Nitrates–both not so great chemicals to be exposed to.
Wow, Charlie, that’s a lot of very interesting, scary information to absorb. I will definitely have to read it again a few times, thank you!
I’ll bet you’re familiar with the military project they called ‘Dilution is the Solution’ Pity the sea life around those barrels once they broke apart.
My water well point is buried next to a big conglomerate share-grower’s tobacco field. So one day, a few years ago, I see this big unit come through the field injecting something into the soil and when he was gone, I noticed a little sign in the field, too small to read. So I went over and it said ‘stay back 15 feet for a buffer zone’, but you couldn’t read it unless you got right up to it, so I was already exposed. Turns out it was Chloropicrin. I had to look it up to discover it’s the same nerve gas, and they approved it for agricultural use. I couldn’t really say anything because I was trespassing, and it was legal, so I didn’t really know what to do.
When I worked in the factory we used Xylene and Trichloroethylene all the time, and we would wash our hands with it at the end of our shift. We used to have to put our manufactured parts in a 5 gallon pail that had holes in the bottom for draining, and then fill it with the Trichloroethylene and then stand there holding it over the tank while it drained. I got tired one day and lost my grip and sloshed it all down the front of myself and into my pants, boy that was an experience.
One time when I sprayed for the florist, they actually gave me a respirator to wear for some reason, something they never did when I sprayed Diazinon and Malathion, so it must have been really bad stuff. They never told me what it was, and they all stood outside and watched while I sprayed. The respirator didn’t fit, and kept falling off my face, and I should have just quit, there and then, but I was young and stupid and I had a wife, bills, etc., so I did what I was told.
It was my own fault to a point, but I was being supervised by someone who job it was to look out for me, and I trusted them. They let me down, but at least I was lucky enough to live to tell the tale (for now).
No so, for the hotshots. I wonder if they felt they had a choice?
I will have to read your post a few times and do some more checking. I was one of those that did not realize the real dangers of these chemicals that people so wantonly disperse in the environmnent and I am certain most of them are ignorant as to what they are actually doing.
No I would not consider it trespassing to read that sign–those fumes are dispersed to your area in the air not to mention the seepage into the ground waters that you have to drink. These farmers and their use of chemicals attests to a couple things–their ignorance and in many cases greed.
I can’t speak badly of farmers anywhere because most of them are honest hard working folks–yet some are turning a blind eye to what the chemicals they use are doing.
In my younger years I cowboyed and the ranch I worked on had about 40 acres in corn as well–good crops came out of it and I can remember using a sharpened hack saw blade with tape for a handle to shuck corn. The blade was used to slit the husk so you could peel it off. Beside that Charlie Ray, the owner of Brock Cattle Company, would grow melons, squash and had some alphalphs growning beside. Those damn hay rakes pulled behind his scout were harder to stay on than a bronc, especially when he turned against the furrows. Yet in all that I never once saw him use chemicals. I know old Charley knew something about crop rotation and using legumes like alfalfa to replenish the soil. So there are methods without the dangerous chemicals, and yes I know there are certain rock minerals ground up that can be added as well that are completely safe since they are just more soil with natural minerals in a degree of concentration.
The disasters are these mining companies and Forest People including their use of chemicals to pollute the environment knowing these things yet turning a blind eye.
Where Joy lives and only about a mile north of the town of Congress, Arizona lies a huge dump of mine tailings from early mining–1900’s to about 1933. The dump is fenced off and covers several acres of white powdery finly grownd rock that had once been gold ore. To extract that gold cyanide was used in abundance–so those tailing still contain a significant amount of cyanide. I told Joy that it is not safe to hang around that dump and who knows how much was leached into the ground that is elevated probably a couple hundred feet above the wells feeding Congress. Well cyanide is biodegradable to a pretty good degree but the part that people do not know is that even 6ppm is in the carcinogenic range. It does not take much contamination from that deadly poison to be harmful–well 1/60th teaspoon cyanide will kill a 140 pound person.
There lies a multimillion dollar clean up for the EPA but nothing is said about it and people go on about their business. Yet in one week 9 people in Congress died recently wiping out one solid block of people. This is after the fire so perhaps it was escalated by the highly tainted smoke from Yarnell–only 6 or 7 miles up the hill from Congress as the crow flies. Well the smoke settled down the mountain there so Congress was darkened by the effect. I know because Joy, I, Penny and her managerie escaped the fire in that direction. Even Wickenburg andother 15 miles south was darkened up by the smoke–yet Yarnell suffered the worse casualties.
I apprediate your posts Harold==one of my middle names. The Irish like several names tacked on–I have not figured that one yet.
Ha, I have to head into Las Cruces to get some dog food–I avoid the Purina stuff–If you tried it no wonder the dogs hate it–you can smell it reeking with chemicals. So other brands are not so bad that way and my rabbit hunting has slowed some due to these health issues so they will have to suffer eating the concoctions the dog food companies do.
You just hit that nail right on the head. They died because Captain Jesse Steed (and others) felt like they didn’t have a choice after the third time that egomaniacal, low self esteem, weak, and deeply flawed insecure fake hotshot crew boss ordered them to their deaths. I say “fake” because it’s turning out he faked everything, his credentials as well as those of his crew. I’m not going to stop calling the GMIHS hotshots because they thought they were when they died. But Willis and so many others knew the truth. And now…we are starting to learn all of the truth as well and that is what they have been so afraid of from the very first day.
In my mind, it’s one of the reasons Willis and others started talking about how qualified they were straight out of the gate. Even at the press conference at the deployment site…if my memory serves. They were covering for cooking the books. To be considered a hotshot, you have to follow the rules and procedures to be one. It’s only right to those that had followed the rules and procedures to become one. If I was a hotshot I’d demand that at least. Hell, I was never one but have enough respect for them…I demand it!
For example, Steed already had his full time job with the PFD and his wife was a stay-at-home mom and they had two little kids who needed the PFD health insurance. People say he had a choice, but he really didn’t.
I am beginning to understand how similar mining and wild land fire fighting are concerning qualifications—You either are or you ain’t–no in between–and if you ain’t you won’t be at the job for long. If you are, you will live long until you die with the title unless for a valid reason a bad luck of the draw gets you–a rotten tree or loose rock you could not detect. But you ought to have survived it all without killing your crew or your helper knowing you were always in full responsibility to insure his safety. If you took care for you and your help, you retired in good conscience. You had done your best.
Well if you need to do some blasting and if it is still legal to purchase cheap fertilizer by the 100 pound bag in Canada, what I meant to say we added a gallon of diesel fuel to make the bag an explosive. But you do need the dynamite to set it off. My Dad and I used to have no problem purchasing dynamite by the 50 pound box but now it is a major operation to even get near the stuff that I often had in the trunk of my car on the way to some mine I was working. Nowadays, here they screw up the bags with something so you can not use it for explosive purposes–the world has changed since the Oklahoma thing–but I would guess there is a bit more sense in Canada on these matters.
I did get back with the dog food–Retriever brand with 27% protein–but does not smell so bad. I will be mixing some cat food in that is white fish and tuna so those dogs might be meowing tonight. That fish ought to be good for their hearts but they prefer wild rabbit to all of it.
And the pollution thing is big now since the population has so increased and the chemical companies are in high gear. Ten miles from here about half way to town what looks to be about a 40 acre man made mountain. It is actually the garbage dump for Las Cruces and surrounding area. I can’t understand why and educated engineer would allow such a dump so close to residents. The town has to expand west toward the dump and is already out with the city limits within 5 miles of that refuse pile. It will over time have seepage down into the aquifer–but apparently they have no concern about that.
It is not possible for them to go east since there is a mountain range within a few miles (the Organ Mountains go practically straight up). and anything beyond is the White Sands Missile Range and all restricted from El Paso Texas all the way up nearly to Socorro very near where the first Atom Bomb was set off at the Trinity Site. I am thinking that Missle Range is about 70 miles wide and about 200 miles long.
At any rate, it goes to show how little people respect the aquifers and use of chemicals. Those land fills are full of chemical residue and should be of highest priority to be kept away from residential areas. Here the aquifer is mostly made up of gravels as the Rio Grande River has over hundreds of thousands of years moved itself a great distance from its original path. I have dug in my yard what started out to be dog swimming hole and now is down about ten feet so I have passed though a top layer of blow sand similar to the Sahara desert type to a clay layer of about 3 ft. in depth to now river sand that has rocks in it worn down as you would find in any river bottom. I am 20 miles from the Rio Grande so that river has moved some distance from even my location. That means the aquifer I use is the same aquifer that land fill will over time pollute with its chemical residues.
We do not however have the misfortune of having the agent orange look alike retardant being dropped nearby. A Physicist working at White Sands told me that however, if you knew what was near you, you would not live here. I have to imagine there are quite a few hydrogen bombs right over the hill from me. Hopefully they have their safety triggers working properly.
Yet not 80 miles from me are the forests I used to log in and later haul wood out of for years. That area near Cloud Croft had some terrible wild fires the years I was living in there. So this retardant thing has hit even New Mexico a greater amount than one might imagine.
It is 95F outdoors so I did take a bit to add a jab to the distributors of the toxins. I know John D. is hot on their tails as well. There are a number of people that have concerns–
I learn quite a bit from your posts, Charlie, thank you!
Harold is actually my middle name as well. In my original post, I used Harold Laurel, which I still like, but Laurel was made up and so I decided not to use it. I simply loved Stan Laurel and thought it would be a nice tribute to him, but I thought it best to stay true to my own name. Stan and Ollie…now there was a team!
I like your ribbing of the Germans, being smart because they emigrated from Ireland. I worked with many different races and we would all jab each other all day, and as long as no one went too far, we all were just fine with it. I’m a mixed breed: Irish (according to my cousin) and who knows what else, a true Heintz 57. So I don’t even KNOW when I should be offended, Ha!
I did want to revisit what I was saying earlier about the ‘Dilution is the Solution’ military project. It wasn’t actually a military ‘project’, just a catch phrase they used to describe how they felt you could dump stuff in the ocean and it would dissipate, namely the Agent Orange they had leftover from Nam. I took an Oceanography course many years ago, and the instructor talked about how they disposed of the chemicals and how it affected the Pacific. The pentagon apparently denied dumping it into the ocean, but reports obtained using the FOIA disclosed it had leached out of the rusted barrels they had stored on Okinawa. At one point they actually had sold it, but when the buyer showed up and saw the condition of the barrels, they wouldn’t touch them and backed out of the deal. It did quite a bit of damage, as you can imagine, killing a lot of creatures.
I never have had any need for dynamite, in fact, I honestly don’t know where a person would even find it up here. They even banned firecrackers in the 1970’s because a little boy had a whole pack go off in his pants, just like Alfalfa did in ‘The Little Rascals’ only it wasn’t funny and he was hurt bad.
Now, I should say they are banned here in Ontario, but I don’t know about the rest of the country, I’ve never been out of the province, except to drive to Florida one time. You can buy fireworks, here, but I believe there only 2 days when you can legally set them off.
There’s a lot of restrictions here on stuff like tobacco and cigarettes and guns, especially handguns – it’s not even worth pursuing it – which I think was the point, but they have just driven it underground and organized crime now makes a lot of money off that stuff, instead of the Government. It doesn’t affect me because that’s something else I’m not into. I’m not against those things, I just am not interested.
I heard mention of a pit-bull earlier, and even those are banned in Ontario. If you already had one you are grandfathered, but no new ones are allowed to come in or be bred. So those kinds of guys just went and got Rotweillers instead.
Even fertilizer is limited to the little bags you get from the hardware store. Farmers can get bulk, but I believe they have to register for it. I gave up on my lawn long ago…it was a lost cause.
I’m really good at math, but the CAPTCHA is getting harder, so it must be time for bed. Thanks for listening.
You are making me a little bit homesick. Sonny I spent a lot of time working down in and around Las Cruces since it’s mostly BLM.
I even did a security detail for Michael Martin Murphy because he did a big benefit concert down there for the Organ Mountains when they made them a National Conservation Area.
https://www.blm.gov/programs/national-conservation-lands/new-mexico/organ-mountains-desert-peaks-national-monument
Never a big fan of his, but who doesn’t like a song about a magical horse….am I right?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gl4Y4FWWkn0
That was the green door in the song Joy. One more time around the Block Cab Driver. Keep up the good work–you have done so much.
He is Irish
I’m only half, from what I’ve been told…
My kids are half Irish and half French-Mexican–but they say they are Irish. I don’t know how they wound up smarter than me–but that is good. I might seem to be proud of my heritage but I am quite aware of the many good and very intelligent people of all races. I sometimes tell the Germans that the reason they are so intelligent is because they emigrated from Ireland. It is just that I appreciate those that are searching for truth and know when a little levity is no obstacle.
And thanks for the laughs Gary–and I am certain WTKTT is laughing with us.
I once thought WTKTT was a clone of Stephen Hawking in a wheel chair until I found out he knew more about chain saws than I do. I think he is ambulatory and fairly fit in real life–but his input and precise investigative abilities are uncanny. Maybe he knows more about the Irish Gods and their space crafts than people suspect.
Something great, he speaks Gaelige better than most Irish.
I am still pretty sure he is AI and therefore not Irish or ambulatory….unless someone carries him around or puts him on a cart with wheels and pushes him.
Because you know, if he is ambulatory…we might already be fucked as a species?
Oh…and one more thing that I have said before and I’ll say it again, Almost nothing about how the last fire season for the crew was shaping up was NORMAL or SOP, there was something really off in how it was all coming together for that crew. I don’t know exactly what it was, nor am I sure I can even put it together in random thoughts and outright speculation, but something was way off and I believe “it” was a significant that factor in the deaths of the crew. Full stop.
They really should have dropped back to a Type 2 IA for the 2013 season.
They barely got in ‘under the wire’ with their 2013 ‘Certification’… and then things continued
to go south, losing crew-members ( Brandon Bunch, etc. ) and then having to tap alternates that were barely qualified. Yarnell was only the SECOND time that John Percin Jr. had ever even gotten near an actual fire…. and his FIRST time was just the day before, in Skull Valley, where he suffered heat stroke and really should NOT have even been available for June 30, 2013.
Then, Marsh’s ‘accident’ and time off, which just really confused things as well.
Then McDonough and Mckenzie almost burned to death on the Doce Fire, just prior to Yarnell.
Things were NOT going well that season in GM land. Not at all.
Yes, and my thoughts are mostly focused on the leasdership of the crew tgat revolved around Marsh, Steed and Willis. This topic had been discussed before on this thread including by me And in fact. I am writing an entire chapter on it, just like I am writing chapters on so many other Random Thoughts I have.
But mark my words, which sounds very dramatic, there was a big and on going problem between those three men and that problem played a huge role in the deaths of the crew. The GMIHC crew leasdership was DYSFUNCTIONAL at the time the crew died.
I know I have a long history of mentioning things I either want to write about, have written sine about, or intend to write a lot about on this thread and my follow up isn’t very good, mostly because my attention span, you know….sucks.
But…there isn’t anything I have ever mentioned I haven’t written something on, and sometimes it has been a lot of something. And there are times I go to post what I have written, and I say to myself, “Self…this really sucks and is more like the random thoughts and disjointed musings of someone who is just making a word salad.
So…I don’t post what I have written in the end. Although then I think, Sonny has always said he likes everything I write, maybe I should go ahead and post it just for him and not worry about what everybody likes or wants to read? Everyone does have options here.
For example, I keep coming back to the logo for Prescott Fuels Crew 7 and I have for six years. I know we have been accused of nothing but Monday morning quarterbacking and water cooler insight on this thread, but not this time and not on this one. This one was right there in everybody’s face as a big red flag 🚩 that nobody wanted to see for what it was, because it was a psychological danger sign.
In fact, I could write an entire chapter on the importance of crew logos, symbols, and mottos, in fact I think I will. But…in the meantime, I will share with you my key thoughts on this not such a random issue.
All hotshot crews that I know of, select a crew logo based on who they are and the image they want to project about themselves to the rest of the world about what they are…at least in their own minds. Crew logos often are related to the geographic area the crew is from, a skill they have, or how they want to be perceived by the rest of the WLF world.
I’m not personally aware of any Type 2, 3, or 4 crews even having logos because you know…they just follow along behind hotshot crews and mop up their shit and who needs a logo to do that?
So anyway…a couple of logos that come to mind that have been standouts in my mind over the years, or way back in the day, are now as good examples to point to, have to begin with the USFS Zig Zag Hotshots from the Zigzag Ranger Station on the Mt. Hood National Forest in the Pacific Northwest Region, R-6.
Their logo always used to be their own rendition of the famous and very cool bohemian French dude doin’ a J. I just looked on the crew website and I couldn’t see what their current logo is, but if it’s still the same one, I’m pretty sure I know why it’s not shown on an official USFS government website since there has always been both an image problem as well as a copyright issue with their logo. But what the hell…it was the coolest hotshot logo in the country and projected volumes about that crew without saying a word…am I right?
And see…that is exactly the problem I’m trying to highlight. There may not have been a single person on that crew who smoked dope, even though they were located very close to “Keep Portland Weird” and stores selling dope are now more common up here than convenience stores.
And if you like to watch people…especially really weird people who can entertain you for hours very cheaply, just go to downtown Portland on any nice day. Or any cloudy and rainy day for that matter. Or fuck it…just go to downtown Portland on any day and the show will be worth the bus fare.
And I doubt if the USFS Blue Ridge Hotshots from the Mighty Coconino still have the same logo from back in my day when my ole hotshot crew boss buddy “Special Ed” was runnin’ that crew, but their logo used to be a hotshot in full hotshot gear hanging on a rope off a cliff that looked like the underside of El Capitan because they were certified as a mountaineering crew. Now don’t ask me how they got that certification because they probably made the whole thing up as they went along. But…it was a good shtick and sales pitch to maybe get some extra fire time…maybe?
“Do you have a pesky smoke that just won’t burn itself out on the Matterhorn or the North Face of the Eiger, and the tourists just won’t leave you alone…call for the Blue Ridge Hotshots!” Me…I would just as soon back up to the next mountain and backfire the whole fuckin’ valley, but hey…that’s just me!
And then there was the Payson Hotshots back in the day. They just had a bunch of figures cutting fire line that all resembled exotic sex toys. But nobody noticed it was an entire hotshot crews of nothing but dildos because they were wearing the coolest hard hats with the greatest color scheme in the entire friggin’ country….am I right?
https://azmemory.azlibrary.gov/digital/collection/pgmh/id/4051/
And then there was the very best and absolutely the greatest hotshot crew logo of all time in the entire nation. The Santa Fe Hotshot Logo of the Three Horsemen. The Santa Fe Hotshots had gone through an identity crises that lasted for years and apparently is still going on today because somebody woke up one day and said, “I know what I’m going to do today, the Santa Fe Hotshots has the best looking logo of all time in the entire country, I think I’ll go fuck it up.” And so they did.
https://azmemory.azlibrary.gov/digital/collection/pgmh/id/4051/
Part 2,
But first they thought, “Hey…I know what we should do…let’s have some artist redraw all of the historical figures in the very best hotshot logo that has ever existed in the entire nation since the creation of hotshot crew logos and make them look like they are auditioning for the Village People!”
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd539656.pdf
Anyway…before some dumb ass, or more likely at least two dumb asses woke up one day and decided to fuck up the best hotshot logo that had ever been created, let me take you back to the very beginning. (And I know I have told this story years ago, but since my stories tend to get better every time I tell them, just give me a chance to add some new details, even if I have to make then up.) there I was just sitting in my nice hotshot crew boss office in Santa Fe thinking, “Oh…fuck me, this is the beginning of my third season with this crew and I haven’t come up with a logo I like yet!”
I mean…I was feeling all melancholy and wistful thinking back to my glory days on the Mighty Coconino after I first got to Santa Fe, so I made the crew logo a mythological Phoenix bird rising out of the ashes with a lot of fire and flames shooting up to symbolize the rebirth of the Happy Jack Hothots, but it never really captured my heart. I had reviewed the crew patches that had been used by the former Santa Fe Organized Criminal Gang Hotshots, that the two pretty good hands I had hired from the old crew had given me, but although I thought they were a good try, especially since I would just have expected them to use a long Spanish dagger dripping bright red blood sticking in a heart, but they didn’t do anything for me either.
One of them was based on the traditional Zia symbol you can find everywhere in New Mexico with some associated fire…or something? I’m going to have to go and see if I can still find my patch collection, because my memory is starting to fade. I started to get out of bed yesterday and ended up doing a full-on face plant into a pile of junk beside my bed the maid hadn’t gotten to yet. And after I came to, I didn’t know if the tumor in my brain is getting worse or it was just my blood pressure pill causing a sudden and unexpected drop in my blood pressure? But I will get back to you on this one? That makes two in as many weeks…so who the fuck knows?
Anyway…the second logo patch from the days the Santa Fe Hotshots were were just a common street gang of thugs, except with a USFS bus to drive around in, was a yellow triangle patch that had guess what on it. Yep…it was the good ole Fire Triangle that is the most basic symbol to all WLF and the cornerstone of our entire Wild Land Firefighting Industrial Complex subculture.
The same three elements must be present in order for every wild fire to burn, or any other fire for that matter. They are…oxygen, fuel and heat. Remove any one of these three elements and what will happen? Anyone…anyone…anyone? Yes…you in the back…Mr. ahhhhh….Woodsman is it? Yes…the fire will go out!
Anyway…I thought it was also a good try considering what I would have expected them to come up with. Like maybe a silhouette of the infamous New Mexico State Prison just south of Santa Fe which was the scene of the bloodiest prison riot in U.S. history depending on how you rank the deaths and of whom. I think the New York State Police killed a lot more non participating inmates and guards at Attica, but at Santa Fe, the rioters definitely killed more informants and people in general, especially with blow torches they borrowed from the shop.
True Story Time;
I was up on the Sky Fire north of Las Vegas, Nevada on some really surprisingly beautiful mountains with the Santa Fe Hotshots in about…of fuck it, I will have to look it up in my Fire Record, I have a fuckin brain tumor you know.
Anyway…it started out as our lucky fire and then went to hell in-a-hand-basket in a really big hurry. Transportation fucked up and sent took us to the wrong heliport to be flown up to the mountain top. And they took another hotshot crew to the heliport we were supposed to be at and before they could get everything straightened out, they had put half of that other hotshot crew in what we always called a Boeing Bull Cow, but I think it was officially a Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm (MBB) just made in partnership with Boeing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt-B%C3%B6lkow-Blohm
In any case, I’m pretty sure they are just about the ugliest helicopters I have ever seen and out of all of the helicopters that don’t look like they should be able to fly, that one really doesn’t look like it should be able to fly and even if it does, nobody should want to fly in one…know what I mean?
Anyway…to make a short story long, the fuckin’ thing augered with a hard landing and yes…then things got really ugly. They…and I am pretty sure it was the fuckin’ BLM decided to use their other helicopters for medivac, and of course I thought that was the right thing to do to fly all of the injured hotshots to Las Vegas (I never heard any died) treatment. But then they followed up that very reasonable idea with a really bad one. All remaining hotshot crews had to hump up that mountain rather than wait for replacement ships and that was one really big and tall mountain, which really sucked…big time.
Anyway…I got sidetracked there from my original story that got me sidetracked from my original story. Once that fire was over except for the mop up, I was standing with a few of my guys over by the Plans tent tyrin’ to figure out the demob schedule. There was part of a con (convict) crew standing with us. After a few minutes, a couple of the cons wanted to engage me in a friendly conversation, but I wasn’t really listening to them because you know…I was tryin’ to figure out the demob schedule.
So one of the cons first said to me, “You guys are out of Santa Fe huh?” Absentmindedly, I replied, “yes.” And then the other one asked me, “Where you there in 1980.” And I thought about it for a minute and replied, “No…I didn’t get there until early 1981.” And then they both let go of a bunch of questions and statements about how lucky I had been to mess the riot and all of the grisly torture with blow torches and shop tools and if it was really as bad as everyone said it was?
And then I was like, what…wait…no? “We aren’t from the Santa Fe State Penitentiary, we are the Santa Fe Hotshots!” I then had to take a hard look at my guys and I had to admit it was fairly easy to make that mistake with them…but with me? Wasn’t it obvious that I was a fire fighting professional hotshot and not just out on a prison work release? I then stomped off in a huff because my conversation with those guys was over!
Anyway…I have now forgotten what my original point was? Oh yeah…how the best hotshot logo that has ever existed was created because after my first melancholy year, I decided we needed a new logo like our old Happy Jack logo and patch. And I had come up with that singular greatest logo in hotshot history until the Santa Fe Hotshot Logo was created. I had a graphic artist copy the U. S. Forest Service patch and logo, except instead of having a magnificent gold and very healthy tree in the center of the patch, I had the artist draw a black snag. Which I thought was really funny and a violation of federal law at the same time.
I was pretty sure I would never get away with it, but it was my third year as a hotshot crew boss, so I was feeling pretty confident that I wouldn’t get in any serious trouble. And I thought there was even a chance they might pretend not to notice even though we had a tradition of sending some of our hotshot caps to both the Forest and Regional Dispatch centers so they wouldn’t forget about us. Plus…it was pretty fuckin’ funny as far as hotshot gallows humor went. Anyway…I never heard a peep out of anyone so we were good to go and then by the next year, our crew gets shipped off to New Mexico to start over.
So by my second year in Santa Fe, I was kinda starting to like the place and hate our crew logo, so I sent everything away to have a commercial patch company make us a new logo created except with some flames added to the snag in the middle of the patch and they came back all fucked up with nothing done right. But…it was too late for a do-over because the fire season was upon us, but I always really hated that logo and patch.
And so…there I was sitting in my office at the beginning of my third year in Santa Fe when fate intervened in my life in a good way for a change because some other guys must have hated that patch and logo as much as I did. And I’m not sure of the complete genesis of the best hotshot logo to ever be created, but I think Richard Lastyona, who was from the Laguna Pueblo, came up with the original drawing of the Three Horsemen. He then showed it to my assistant and then they both brought it into my office to see how i liked it. And just like President Trump did with the most murderous and sadistic man on the face of the planet, Kim Jong-un, I fell in love with it.
I mean…it had everything and was not just a nod to one of the most historical places in the country, it was an ode to Santa Fe in a picture format. It had it all, the three horseman riding on horses right out of the old west before it was the old west and was still a part of the Spanish Empire. The three horsemen represented everything good about the Santa Fe Hotshots by symbolizing the three races who all came together by putting our historical differences aside to create a culturally unified and homogeneous crew based on group solidarity and cohesiveness.
Because you can be assured of one thing, I was very well aware from the very first day the crew that was created there was six Anglo guys from Arizona telling a bunch of native Nuevo Mexico Spanish and Indian guys what to do in a city and in a state that was a minority majority population and culture. And I always knew that the very quickest way to see my brand new hotshot crew implode was for my new hotshots to think even for one second that I liked one race more than the other, in spite of how much Orlando and his dear wife Lydia loved me.
Anyway…that is a long way around the Horn to tell you that if you think the flaming dice logo chosen by the Prescott Fuels Crew 7 didn’t mean exactly what it did mean and was just a serendipitous decision made on a lark that I am now exaggerating the significance and meaning of, through the use of Monday morning quarterbacking while making things up…you obviously don’t have the slightest fucking idea of how fire crews think and behave. That logo told you exactly what they wanted you to hear. They were a reckless bunch of gamblers who were not only willing to bet their lives on a roll of the dice and bet on 7 coming up every time, they enjoyed playing the game and wanted you to know it by sticking it right in your face!
And so there…I just uploaded a photo to show you what the top of my head looks like after doing that head plant yesterday. I’m not like Sonny you know! I can’t take a lickin’ and just keep on tickin’ like nothing happened! I need some virtual sympathy.
Don’t worry though, I have already ordered a bicycle helmet I’m going to start wearing around my room and outdoors from now on. I still haven’t gotten over my Jeep hauler trying to kill me a couple of weeks ago, but my leg does look much better, thank you for asking. Oh yeah…nobody even ASKED!
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved7.html
And don’t ask me why the photo of my head is upside down…damn machines.
True Story,
I was in this grocery store yesterday (Fred Meyer) and a song a really I liked was playing on their in-house music. And I have noticed people like store clerks will usually be nice to stupid old people, even when they asked stupid old people questions.
And so I asked this guy clerk, “Do you know what song this is because I really like it?” And he said, “No…but I will see if I can find someone who does.”
And then he came back with a young lady clerk, and she held her PHONE up in the air and said, “Siri…who sings this song?”
And I will be damned if Siri didn’t tell her the name of the song and the artist! I think Siri is on my phone, but I have never tried asking her a question. We live in a scary world today…just saying.
Shop at Fred Meyer if they have stores in your area. They have the nicest people working at them!!
Maybe ask SIRI why Crew 7 died? Just an idea…
Good one!, Woodsman…
I hope thats not your leg–looks like mine after I changed the length of my chain saw bar and slashed my leg–not good but I am sure you had some duct tape handy. I did that day by good fortune.
Damn Gary–ouch anyway. Shit happens to the best of us–but you do deserve a bit of sympathy there.
Oh…and one more thing. I think it’s entirely likely that the “they” who selected flaming dice to be their logo, was only one man…Eric Marsh because of what I have learned about his personality over the last six years.
And yes…I do realize that the crew wasnt called the “Flaming Dice Hotshots” and Eric went with a different logo. But…I think the man and the attitude remained the same until his last living moment on this earth.
Okay…just one more…maybe? I should have written (and I will in my book) something like,
“The Flaming Dice logo told you exactly what they wanted you to hear. They were a reckless bunch of gamblers who were not only willing to bet their lives on a roll of the dice and bet on it coming up 7 up every time, they enjoyed playing the game and wanted you to know it by sticking it right in your face because their motto was “Risk a Lot To Save a Lot!”
And as we have discussed many times on this thread, that was an alien and insidious concept that bled into an otherwise bonafide wild land firefighting crew.
I don’t have the words to describe to you just how…ALIEN AND INSIDIOUS, to “risk a lot to save a lot” sounds to me.
I don’t have a reference or data point anywhere in my life for something (a concept) so ridiculoul! Full stop…end of story.
I do think that concept is something the Round Hats need to answer for in the deaths of the crew. They have to explain it, because I can’t.
And I can’t calculate if it was a factor that day, and if so, how much of a factor because you know…I don’t have the words to describe to you just how…ALIEN, INSIDIOUS and downright DANGEROUS to “risk a lot to save a lot” sounds to me. Full stop…end of story, I wish.
Reason a thorough profile evaluation on Marsh needs to be made–I think he was on his way our–I did note he was isolated from that crew that day and kept himself that way all the time Joy and I watched him and the GMHS crew–he was always at least a quarter mile away always when we saw him and at the fire edge probably an hour before we saw the men looking like ants coming up the trail from the Old Grader area.
Joy has photos of that–but me being the quiet one was watching his demeanor–polite but some detached that day. He certainly was in good physical condition for the day and got to the fire edge sooner than us by a good ten minutes as we trekked up the two track–well we had wiggled through that manzanita since 3:30 am that day so by 9:30 when we met him and had finally got onto the two track we were worn down some.
That is a very steep climb on the trail going up even though it was somewhat of a trail–something though before the fire you could have gotten a 4×4 quad up and they did some. After the fire and rains there were some deep gullies made in that trail so it would have been hard to by pass and get to the area where the lightening strike happened.
There was another fellow up there with Marsh but we never knew how he got there–someone in the photos Joy took but was never identified.
Of course when we started back down the two track we passed the men and they looked bushed. My comment Joy was embarrassed since I said they look like they are on a death march and with my 10% hearing my whisper sounds like a loud speaker and I sometimes forget. She had told me to be quiet they can hear.
You actually drop down some to a gully coming off the Weaver and then back up again to the T in the two track. Instead of going left to backtrack the way we came up, we went straight ahead and the two track goes up to a lesser incline on the two track then levels out pretty much until you get to the place they descended to the death canyon.
So yes, there had to be some consternation going on in Marsh’s life–he was polite with us and a gentleman about telling us we should leave–and once that fire left the boulder area and got down past the grader there was nothing going to stop it.
It is absolutely a necessity to look at human factors and most especially those concerning the main player Eric Marsh and add those that were running the show that day. Some of these things are best done by people with that type background–the FBI profilers that are retired or have decades of experience should look in on this one.
Oh…and the best way to treat everybody the same on a hotshot crew, especially a new one? Is to be honery to everyone all of the time. And that way, everybody says, “It’s obvious that he doesn’t like people who look like me, but it’s just as obvious that he doesn’t like people who look like him any better. So…I guess we’re doing pretty good as a team. Hooah?”
Whoops…”Houston We Have a Problem” with one of those links, but I will figure it out.
You have that right Gary–I get laughs at times but I also know that your are dead serious on most topics. Your book will be a winner–who would not want to know the real story and those real and vivid experiences you share that only a fire fighter and investigator that has been there. I appreciate your postings–they have given me a good look into the fire fighting world that I would have never had without them.
😎
If a foreign country uses chemicals on it’s citizens, it’s considered an atrocity, and the international response is outrage. If Canada were to drop retardant that drifted into the U.S. causing the deaths and terminal illness of hundreds of citizens, we wouldn’t have to wait very long before we would feel your wrath. No studies or committee meetings required. So how can it be acceptable to drop this poison on innocent American citizens and not lose any sleep over it? There’s something very wrong here…I had to slap myself just to be sure this is real. They tell us it requires heat to release the toxins, well are you sure you want to roll the dice on that? Numbers don’t lie and when you suddenly see a spike in deaths like the ones in Yarnell, you got a problem that can’t be ignored. Look, I have all the sympathy in the world for the 19 hotshots that were lost, and if we could collect all the tears we’ve shed for them and go back, we could douse that fire. But this is worse. As horrible as it was for those brave men, no one deserves a slow, suffering demise from organ failure, especially innocent folks who just happen to live in the wrong place at the wrong time. I’ve already had the misfortune to watch three family members be slowly taken by COPD with more to come, including myself, and let me tell you it’s something you’ll never forget. I watched your video Mr. Gary Olsen and I realize we don’t know each other, but brother I feel you. It was like looking in the mirror and I know that look in your eyes all too well. I wish I could lift that piano off your chest so you don’t have to wonder whether that next breath is going to be there for you. In my case it’s likely genetic, but in your’s it seems occupational and you are absolutely correct: “No, it ain’t right”. Not for you, or Sonny, or Joy or anyone else who is suffering right now because of this bureaucratic and corporate negligence. For anyone else who thinks this is not their problem, just remember, tomorrow it could be your town that gets doused. All the decision makers out there better listen up, because it’s not 1950 anymore, and the world is watching. It’s only a matter of time before this finally gets the global attention it deserves and you run out of places to hide the truth. As for Hollywood, if you ever decide to make a non-fictional sequel to ‘Only the Brave’ I hope it’s about investigativeMEDIA and their fight for the truth.
Wow…thank you so much! I think that is the nicest thing anyone has ever written to me!
Nothing but respect here, Gary, and you even look a lot like my big brother who was another badass just like you. He always looked out for me and when he went down, it rocked my world. I would follow you into battle any day, if I could.
🙏🏻
Thanks for your post Harold and my regrets to hear of your health situation and how you lost loved ones. I have been diagnosed with the early stages of COPD myself–and the lack of breath that I have now compared to before the retardant drops is a terrible situation for someone that likes physical projects.
I do not know if you are a fire fighter or were exposed to chemicals and retardant. But I can tell you Joy and I were hiking 15 miles regularly in mountainous terrrain before the Yarnell fire and retardant dumps there. In fact only a few weeks before we had hiked from the Prescott DMV all the way to Wilhoit–that hike was continuous and covered more than 40 miles. But only a few months after many hikes through the retardant loaded with chemicals hidden from us by trade laws along with the toxic Ammonium Phosphates. But several months after those hikes my wind stared going away and so I went to the VA hospital in Prescott for lack of breath and chest pains. Two cardiologists there checked me and said it was likely angina. But I fell dead in their parking lot–about four miles away is the hospital that does heart surgery–so I was taken by ambulance there where several days later I woke up on life support. The doctors said I had died but they had been able to revive me and I now had a couple heart stents. I was to be helicoptered back to that same hospital some months later for more heart stents. There are now a total of 6 heart attacks and 6 heart stents. And this has been an ongoing thing since the retardant drops, but fortunately I have left the toxic area of Yarnell and two different looks at my heart with a catheter says the stents are still there and my arteries are still clear.
Now Joy, who is much younger–in her 40’s is down ill and suffering various ailments–one shortness of breath.
I post these things because I realize many of the people are reluctant to tell of their health maladies. We are not after sympathy–something that is in the dictionary between shit and syphilis–but people need to know what these toxic slurry dumps are doing to people.
A study of how cyanide was made by the old miners wanting to use cyanide as a gold solvent in sulfide ores shows that they applied the very retardant chemical of potassium or ammonium nitrates on burning embers. The modern method is different since you can imagine the danger of breathing cyanide fumes–they were used to kill death row inmates.
They say there is no long time study on retardant effects on health–but if you read about phosphates they are big on causing renal problems and arterial degeneration. Damn the dead fish count is in the hundreds of thousands where phosphates or retardant phosphates and nitrates enter the water. The Fall river in oregon is mentioned often since only a thousand gallons or so of the retardant killed some 20,000 fish but that is miniscule to the phosphates in Florida that have killed into the hundreds of thousands of fish. Those phosphate mines south of Tampa are costing EPA 141 million to clean up and they have big worries this shit is contaminating the water table. And some honcho in the FS has the balls to say this slurry should be used seldom except near residences and towns.
I get worked up over it because I have lost some very good friends at Yarnell–and when Gary mentioned he had COPD I was saddened. His father happened to be a hero and died an Underground Uranium miner by some accident of equipment likely knocking him off into a deep shaft. Those shafts were 1200 ft. deep there and generally we worked anywhere from the 300ft. level to the 900 ft. level in the tunnel off chutes. Gary said he is devoting some time in his book to his Dad–by coincidence I worked the Sec. 30 shaft where he was killed. I knew the dangers there and how often men were hurt or killed–something because of the need for Uranium in those days was kept under wraps much like the Yarnell wild fire incident that killed 19 GMHS.
I do hope we eventually uncover the hidden chemicals they add in the proportion of 5-15%. It is unconscionable to dump chemicals so as to saturate the environment of people as was done in Yarnell. It is unbelievable that these Yahoos that dump these chemicals now want to restrict them more to residential areas.
I believe the FS and Chemical companies behind the slurry know more than they put out. It was that way in Uranium Mining–we believed the so called low level radiation was nothing to worry about and were often told that at their orientations or occasional safety meetings.
But they must know if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough the general public will buy it despite the evidence to the contrary. Big money and big corporations such as Monsanto and so forth that sell these chemicals are not anxious to loose their cash cow.
Yes…Sonny and his inside knowledge of the circumstances under which my father was killed does pkay an important role in my book and helps to explain my obsession and anger regarding workplace safety. And I greatly appreciate the time and effort Sonny put into helping me understand what happened and why
And that is another thing Bob P. and I have in common. He is brave and honest enough to stand up and state the truth as to why his father was killed on the Rattlesnake Fire. His father made a mistake at work and it cost him his life. I can do no less. My father made a mistake at work and it cost him his life.
Thank you Charlie, for your kind words and I have a mutual sympathy for you and Joy and all the good citizens of Yarnell and surrounding areas and your failing health condition, it’s a terrible thing they’ve done to you and for them to deny it, only adds a slap to the face. Myself, I was never a firefighter, I started out as a teenager working full time for a florist company spraying chemicals all day (Diazinon & Malathion) and didn’t know any better. No gloves, mask, apron – nothing but me and the spray, and I liked it because it kept me cool inside the hot, humid greenhouse and I’d be all scratched up from the roses creating new points of entry. I was soaked so much my skin was pruned at the end of every shift. Then I went to work in a foundry and welded for 26 years, you got to make a living, right? I eventually started wearing a respirator, and was ridiculed for it, but it didn’t help – the damage was done. But in fairness, pulmonary fibrosis has taken my brother, mother and grandmother, all at an early age, and now another diagnosis, plus two more siblings showing signs I recognize all too well , and well, you get the picture. They can’t say what’s causing it, but it is following a genetic line, so we can’t really point any fingers. I hope you continue to improve, maybe getting out of the area was the key, but it’s sad you can’t enjoy your former life anymore. You shouldn’t have to give up the life you had for such foolishness, and I agree, it should never be used so close to residential areas (if at all) where people plan to go back. Someone, maybe it was you, said it makes for a pretty news clip and that’s so true. I’m new to all this, but I have seen air attack on the news dropping retardant, and I thought it looked so cool. Now that I have been educated on the subject, I’ll never think that again.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Fairchild_Air_Force_Base_B-52_crash
Woodsman,
Thanks so much for posting this. I hope you’re okay with my adding to the clarity and the message I think you’re trying to send here.
“News Story Behind The Fairchild AFB 1994 B-52 Crash” ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJl7b9bQH0 )
“Incredibly, it was no surprise. Top Air Force pilots had fought for years to prevent this accident but were ignored by senior commanders … During three years of reckless flying, there was a succession of ten officers at Fairchild who had authority of [Lt. Colonel Arthur] Holland. The report showed that these men covered for him. There are no official reprimands in his file.”
“1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 Plane Crash” ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=182AepOJjMs )
One can easily infer that there are a lot of similarities to this guy and the GMHS leader; the one responsible for the safety and welfare of his men – NO MATTER WHAT!
Reply to Woodsman post on June 25, 2019 at 6:13 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Fairchild_Air_Force_Base_B-52_crash
Ah yes… the infamous Bud Holland.
Poster child for “an accident just waiting to happen”..
Looks like Holland thought the long-established SAFETY RULES about angle-of-attack and avoiding an ‘accelerated stall’ were just HILLBILLY… and he thought he was SMARTER THAN THAT.
From the link…
————————————————————————————————-
The subsequent investigation concluded that the crash was attributable primarily to three factors:
1. Pilot Bud Holland’s personality and behavior;
2. USAF leaders’ delayed or inadequate reactions to earlier incidents involving Holland;
3. The sequence of events during the aircraft’s final flight.
The crash is now used in military and civilian aviation environments as a case study in teaching crew resource management. It is also often used by the U.S. Armed Forces during aviation safety training as an example of the IMPORTANCE of complying with SAFETY REGULATIONS and correcting the behavior of anyone who violates safety procedures..
————————————————————————————————–
Open Letter To All;
I think that whatever is happening over at the Eric Marsh Foundation isn’t because it’s about to launch an attack on anyone. I think it’s because the entire house of cards rests on one very irrational, volatile, unstable and manic depressive woman.
And she isn’t having a good month. It’s looks to me like their fundraiser flopped, IM is hitting hard with new and shocking revelations, I even went and took a dump in the middle of their pity party and I will tell you what up I think their big problem is….money, or the lack of it.
They are in direct competition with a long established and generally respected WLF Foundation that has that whole angle locked up for the most part. I think their funding is dependent on donations, which probably started slowing down if not drying up years ago because that only lasts as long as people emotions and attention span do.
And selling junk and trinkets which people buy in part to show their solidarity with the cause is fine, but I don’t think that goes very far beyond the city limits of Prescott, or the borders of Yavapai County, and certainly not beyond Arizona.
Now…I think the WLF powerhouse in SoCal kept it going beyond when it would have otherwise have died off, but even those people can use so much GMIHC merchandise. Which leads me to what they really need…CORPORATE SPONSORS like EZFire! But the WLF Foundation has them all locked up…I think.
I don’t think any lawyers will file a lawsuit pro bono, I think there are some who would defend them from one, but not start the fight, especially on a 1st Amendment issue. Most lawyers are more liberal than conservative and even the ones who aren’t, generally understand how important constitutional issues are in this country.
So…bottom line, I think that IF there is a problem over in Crazy Town or with their Crazy Town Mayor Lohman,, I think it’s financial problems. They have overhead and bills to pay, otherwise, they would have sued me a long time ago. 😎
Oh…and one more thing. Crazy Town Mayor Lohman made the decision to make herself a high profile piblic person a long time ago for fun and profit. And by doing so…she gave up the protections courts have provided for average citizens in this country from personal attacks and criticism.
I can bash Our Dear Leader For Life without fearing government censorship or retaliation and I sure can attack the irrational, volatile, unstable and manic depressive Mayor Of Crazy Town without fearing governmental sponsored or even permitted retaliation.
Now…harassment from her jerk-off, shit-for-for-brains posse of followers, enablers and sycophants? Yes…some of the may pose a danger to me if they ever find me in a completely vulnerable position without any witnesses around, but other than that…they are a bunch of chicken-shit, mother fucking cowards. You what I mean?
WHOOPS,
DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
CRAZY TOWN MAYOR AMANDA BENO MARSH LOHMAN DIDNT JUST ACCUSE ME OF WANTING TO AND PLANNING ON BEING A MURDERER, SHE ACCUSED ME OF PLANNING ON AND WANTING TO BE AN…ASSASSIN, WHO WANTED TO ASSASSINATE CREW 7 FAMILY MEMBERS FROM A SNIPER POSITION! Me…a bonafide and AKC certified SHEEPDOG!
AMANDA LOHMAN OWES ME A PUBLIC APOLOGY! And so does her sycophant and enabler NEIL. I SWEAR TO ALL THAT IS HOLY, IF MACLEAN EVER PUBLISHES A BOOK AND USES NEIL AS A RESEARCHER OR REFERENCE, I AM GOING TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE POINTING OUT VERBALLY AND IN WRITING WHY HE SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE THAT!
Reply to Woodsman post on June 22, 2019 at 6:00 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Movie quote…
>> “WE are HOTSHOTS. YOU are Type 2″ ( so go mop up our SHIT )”.
>>
>> But… you’re not, actually. You’re a city fire department fuels crew.
>> Crew 7 in fact. What… a… fucking… mess…
>>
>> Is this some kind of bizarre dream and I’m going to wake up any moment now???
It still remains to be seen whether “Crew 7” ever really was ‘properly evaluated’ ( according to the correct NWCG procedures ) before becoming a Type 1 IHC Crew.
There are many things about the ‘story’ that Darrell Wills tells that don’t add up or cannot be verified.
But don’t forget that Eric Marsh ( himself ) wrote the following on May 3, 2013…. just 57 days before the Yarnell Hill tragedy.
Document in SAIT FOIA/FOIL package: ASF000042-INV to ASF000384-INV.pdf
On page 252 ( of 343 pages )
——————————————————————————————————
City of Prescott
EMPLOYEE SELF APPRAISAL
EMPLOYEE NAME: Eric Marsh
DEPARTMENT: Fire
POSITION TITLE: Superintendent
EVALUATION TYPE: Annual
DATE: May 3, 2013
* Greatest workplace challenges over the last year
It is challenging to run a nationally recognized program with minimum standards and requirements that I am unable to meet.
(snip)
———————————————————————————————————–
Emphasis is mine…
“It is challenging to run a nationally recognized program with MINIMUM STANDARDS
and REQUIREMENTS that I am UNABLE TO MEET.”
Eric Marsh didn’t say it was HARD to meet the Type 1 IHC ‘minimum standards’.
He specifically said he was UNABLE to meet the Type 1 IHC ‘minumum standards’.
There has never been any kind of full explanation of what Eric Marsh really meant by that statement he made ( in writing ) just 57 days before the tragedy.
I have an unusual and special request. In about 2007, Ed Hollenshead came down to Prescott to buy a Jeep his son Cody had arranged for him to purchase from where he was living back up in Boise after he retired in California.
Anyway, as I’m sure all of you know, I was in to Jeeping at that time and so ED and I made plans to go Jeeping together after he picked up his jeep. It was black and looked like some kid had built it up because it was overdone, as opposed to my Jeeps which are built up just right…of course. Although it was a TJ so I didn’t hate it,
It’s most unusual overdone feature was was a giant decal of a pair of flaming dice that were made to look like the Devil had just thrown them across the hood of the Jeep with lots of flames and colors like red and orange flames and smoke and they were coming up 7, with a 4 and a 3.
It looked pretty cool if you had been a kid under 25… maybe? To Ed’s credit, he thought the giant decal was overdone and made the Jeep look like a bitch (non gender specific) Jeep and he wanted to get rid of them.
So…here is what I think.
1. Ed already had the Jeep when I first saw him that week.
2. His son Cody, who had arranged the purchase of the Jeep from the father of a friend of his. Cody had been on the original Prescott Brush Crew, Fuels Crew 7.
3. I have heard the logo of Fuels Crew 7, was a pair of flaming dice that was coming up 7, with a 4 and a 3.
4. So…since I am a trained investigator, I think Ed bought that Jeep from someone who had been on Fuels Crew 7? Or maybe from someone who had been on Fuels Crew 7 who had owned it until his father repossessed it because he didn’t make the payments like he was supposed to?
5. I think that giant pair of flaming Duce was actually the logo for Fuels Crew 7.
6. If anyone out there has either a photo, or some other rendition like a digitized original decal or patch, (would be ideal) of the old logo for Fuels Crew 7, I would like a copy of it.
[email protected]
Thanks,
I think it kinda looked like this decal.
https://www.amazon.com/flaming-dice-temporary-tattoo-tattoogirlsrule/dp/b00wc6ka5u
I got the year wrong, not that it really matters, but I think it must have been Circa 2011.
It’s hard to find any photos of the original Crew 7 “Flaming Dice” logo.
I don’t think the Prescott Fire Department ever made T-Shirts or caps with that logo.
When the GMIHC-Learning-and-Tribute-Center first opened, Prescott eNews reporter Lynne LaMaster was there taking photos… and one of the displays was ( apparently ) the original drawing of the “dice” logo used for Crew 7.
That logo used a “5” cube and a “2” cube to make the “7”… and not a ‘4’ and a ‘3’.
See the 14th photo down from the top of the page for a photo of the original Crew 7 “Flaming Dice” logo…
Prescott eNews
Article Title: Learning & Tribute Center Honors the Granite Mountain 19 Legacy
Published: 27 June 2018 by Lynne LaMaster
https://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/32174-learning-tribute-center-honors-the-granite-mountain-19-legacy
** OR **
Direct link to the photo of the original drawing used for the Crew 7 “Flaming Dice” logo…
https://www.prescottenews.com/images/stories/postmail/IMG_6378.jpg
Can’t find anything in COLOR. Not sure there ever was anything.
Wow…that is all I gave to say. That is quite a collection of memorabilia, I have never seen any of it before.
But the important thing to me is that you answer my question Pertaining to fuels crew 7.
Thank you very much. That was not the logo on the Jeep, must have just been a coincidence
I am looking to use it in my book.
THANK YOU FOR FINDING THAT FOR ME!
THANK YOU FOR FINDING THAT FOR ME!
I have no idea if there were ‘other versions’ of that logo, or not… or whether there might have been one that more closely resembled the one you remember seeing.
But if the original used a “5” cube and a ‘2’ cube ( instead of a ‘4’ and a ‘3’ )… it’s probably likely that any other ‘versions’ used the same ‘5’ and ‘2’.
And your other recent post is absolutely correct.
These ‘fire crew’ logos are not chosen at random. A LOT of ‘thought’ goes into them on the part of whoever is supposed to decide what they are.
Showing a pair of DICE “on the roll” and “always coming up SEVEN” means it’s something you actually BELIEVE in. You BELIEVE in “taking chances” on a regular basis. That’s who you are… and it’s the MESSAGE you are trying to convey with your ‘logo’ choice(s).
And yes… in Crew 7’s case… it was Eric Marsh who chose that ‘design’ for the logo. I believe he might have actually drawn it himself.
Ha, ha–yes sounds like a youngin’s jeep. I think of my OD 86 Nissan–I might put the army star and circle on it since I am a loyal Army Vet. However, that attacks undue attention and even the OD can be a head turner in the city–but this truck is not a city dude. Some people like to be announced by their loud rap or their $2000 chrome rims on a $50 vehicle but I am not one of those. A few hillbilly songs and at low level in case you do not enjoy my flavor of music is in order. Actually with my hearing loss these days the radio is not an issue but I can still hear and feel my vehicle vibrate unnecessarily when I pull up beside some low rider–maybe low life too. I wouldn’t mind taking my 45 to his radio but that is only a metaphor.
Damn, I cook good pinto beans. Those I had purchased this summer in a 25 pound sack from a farmer at the Deming flea market. They were grown right outside Deming and sacked and being sold as a staple for the hispanic and other frejole lovers. They look small but once you soak them overnight, then pressure cook them they become full size pintos and mine come out better than anything sold in the canned goods at the grocery store. Well they are about a dollar a can there so mine are worth $3 a can. Though you do add salt, some good chili powder or the likes. I can use a tortilla along side or since I am a gringo I don’t mind a slice of bread instead of the tortilla.
Don’t ask me how long I pressure cook–I have been lucky by the smell–once I get a good aroma I dive toward the burner to shut it off–I had forgotten that I had them on–whew I best get a timer–luck and smell might not be the best method to get good beans.
I should add do not have a son that is an RN and be using that pressure cooker when he comes around. You will go though a long lecture on the killer pressure cooker–and he has treated patients with half their head blown off by one. But I have always been fully aware of the dangers of heating water to steam–at 900psi it will drive huge locomotive and in a closed container can such as a pressure cooker will become a bomb if there is no relief valve or should it become plugged. Well at 1bar and 210F there is about 14 psi inside that cooker of mine. Since my cooker is 9 inches in diameter doing the math of pi x r squared you come up it is 3.1l4x81=about 254 sq. inches x 14 brings it up to about 3550 pounds of pressure or a ton and a half of pressure just on the lid alone. No wonder you need an escape valve and that the beans cook in a hurry. Well as temperatures rise the psi does too and faily quickly –superheated water up above 500 degrees will produce 3200 psi range. A certain bomb. But my son the RN does not know the specifics–just that he has seen people loose half their head and die from the pressure cooking experience. I would suggest they either bought a cheap aluminum model, did not keep their valve clean, or else open the kind that have no cool down lock too quickly. Cooking can in a way be as dangerous as wild land fire fighting or mining in the rat hole Uranium deposits at Ambrosia Lake for such companies as United Nuclear, Standard Oil of Ohio, or Kerr Mac as we called them.
But I was not to post about cooking beans. The red algae I was hoping I might be able to consume–but it is toxic–it thrives on phosphates and nitrates (retardant run off is its favorite) and what it does to ruin life for every thing else near it is to deplete the oxygen level of the sea so nothing else below it can survive–the sunlight is also shut out for the plant life that would ordinarily be there. So it is as poison as the retardant that feeds it.
I guess my beans will have to do with the chili for some added greans (jalapeno). Well that is red algae anyway–but I sometimes use red chile.
Being a wild land fire fighter you would know to mostly stay away from eating wild red flowering plants and usually red berries–all can be deadly. I wonder how they like Phos-Chek.
The mexicans may have been a BETTER cowboy but you have them BEAT on the bean cooking…the best ever…I sure miss them. Sonny…spent yesterday and today doing health stuff and doc wanted me in so by late tomorrow I hope to be 1 step closer…I am swollen so bad…and the flank pain was not relieved with medical massage or Chiropractor…
Yes…best beans are the homemade ones you make with fresh chili and onions and loads of garlic…miss that bunches…
God Bless
By this week I plan to post WHO I am to the world because Internationally it has been a question…was I a FF or what on June 30 2013…so bear with me my next post is delayed due to location of equipment and doing medical stuff but no worries…the next 3 posts are all on Staff rides…
Good Joy–enjoy your posts and revelations–they are shedding some light and know your long time tedious research and work has been a long journey. I know you would take care of those lightening strikes at Yarnell in a hurry–even keep your men in the black if there happens to be any after you quench it.
**
** VETERAN WFF SAFETY OFFICER TALKS ABOUT ERIC MARSH’S ‘ATTITUDE’
Phillip A. Young was a WFF Safety Officer for 25 years, and he worked with Granite Mountain on at least 3 major fires ( that he can recall ).
1) The ‘Cave Creek Complex’ fire in 2005
2) The ‘Horseshoe 2’ fire in June of 2011.
3) The ‘Doce’ fire in Prescott, mid-June of 2013, just 2 weeks before the Yarnell tragedy.
He recalls that when working with Granite Mountain on the ‘Horseshoe’ fire… there was discussion with other fire personnel about Eric Marsh’s “Attitude”… and how STUBBORN he could be.
Just another ‘piece of the puzzle’, maybe… but it certainly might have been this same ‘stubbornness’ that Jesse Steed had to deal with when he kept trying to fend off Eric Marsh’s multiple ( at least three ) attempts to get Jesse to move Granite Mountain out of the safe black on June 30, 2013.
This 25-year veteran Wildland Firefighting Safety Officer then wraps up his thoughts by saying he feels like Yarnell is a perfect example of how terrible things CAN happen when simple concepts like LCES and ‘risk management’ are FORGOTTEN and/or IGNORED.
http://travelranger87508.blogspot.com/2017/10/
Internet Archive ( Wayback Machine ) link to this same BLOG post…
https://web.archive.org/web/20190624064418/http://travelranger87508.blogspot.com/2017/10/
From his BLOG post…
——————————————————————————————————-
Yours truly (“Safety Dude”) worked three fires (that I know of) with the crew that became the Granite Mountain IHC (GMIHC).
1) The Cave Creek Complex in 2005 was the first (Tonto National Forest, north of Phoenix). ( snip ).
2) 2nd was the Horseshoe 2 fire, which was in the Chiricahua Mountains (southeast Arizona), in June of 2011 (about a month after my return from working in Jordan at Petra). Brave shows them being evaluated for IHC status, and it might have been the case. I spent most of my time & efforts near/around Chiricahua National Monument. What seemed could’ve ringed true was Marsh’s “’Tude” ( attitude ) with the evaluator. I hardly knew him, but fire personnel closer to him have told me that he ( Marsh ) could be… well, quite STUBBORN.
3) 3rd – the GMIHC and many others worked the Doce fire (Prescott, AZ) in mid-June 2013. ( snip )
To this day, I remember where I was, and my reaction upon hearing that 19 of 20 GMIHC had been lost that June afternoon. I immediately went into denial: “No it can’t be… we don’t lose crews” I told myself. I knew wildland firefighting was a very dangerous business: I’d been a Safety Officer for 25-years and a Type I for 20-fire seasons. I also knew we’d lost too many people over those decades. However, what was really perplexing to me was losing an entire crew. That hadn’t happened since the early 1930’s, the Griffith Park fire next to my hometown (Burbank, CA). Hadn’t we come a long ways since then? Wasn’t our technology and safety training far superior? As it turned out the HUMAN FACTORS hadn’t:
After decades we still saw (and see to the present) that simple required principles like L-C-E-S ( Lookouts, Communications, Escape Routes, Safety Zones ) are abandoned and we sometimes leave risk assessment & management behind, allowing the holes in the Swiss cheese of disaster to align.
—————————————————————————————————–
Another Forrest Gump moment!
Phil Young was a “Park Ranger” for many years. Phil was one of their uniform division gun carrying rangers until he was promoted to become a very rare NPS 1811 Criminal Investigator, Special Agent just as I was for the BLM.
In about 1989, I was selected to create and then manage a national interagency task force that received special line item appropriations from Congress to conduct large scale and continual undercover operations against high end ARPA violators, centered on Santa Fe.
Phil was my Deputy ARPA Task Force Coordinator and we worked together in those respective positions for several years and we worked together and remained for many years as very good friends, even after he retired. In fact, we are still good friends to this day.
Phil is a Navy Vietnam Vet, and he is very much like RTS, and just a little bit of a nerd but very, very, very, smart and very, very, very capable as an employee, and very, very, very much of a straight arrow and has the highest ethical standards. If Phil told me something, I would bet my life on the fact that whatever Phil said is true.
Oh…and one more thing. I was always pissed off at Phil because he would always answer the Fire bell as a Safety Officer even when we were in the middle of some very important and very serious undercover op.
Phil was a fanatically dedicated fire line Safety Officer and he kept going out as an AD Safety Officer even after hevretired. Phil is a very good man and friend. So…
Phil and I drifted apart as so many retired people do, but I am pretty sure he and I are still very good friends. Phil still lives in Santa Fe in the same neibirhood I used to live in.
Maybe I should go buy Phil lunch at the Mexican food restaurant we always used to go to and interview him for my book about Marsh? Phil will tell me the truth, just like RTS tells the truth. Phil is built very much like RTS as well and I can see quite a few similarities between them.
After Phil retired from the NPS, he worked fir the State If New Mexico fir 10 years and was always going down south Mexico and the northern triangle countrues to dig. I’m sure that is why he was in Petra, working with State Deoartment on an international friend program.
Anyway…Phil is a great guy. Phil always called me, “The Legend.” But he might have been fuckin with me?
Phil was always a very loyal and very straight arrow company man. Phil very rarely expressed any negative vibes about anything or anyone.
If Phil said something about Marsh and Phil described it as a 6 on a scale of 1-10. It would heve been behavior just about everyone else would describe as a borderline 11. Phil is very careful with his words and unlike me, he was always very professional and discreet.
Just think THE EXACT opposite of a loose canyon.
In fact, I have a great photo of me, Phil and a senior U.S. Customs Special Agrnt in the middle of conducting a search warrant back in the day. I will post it later, because you know me…if I have a photo. I love to post it.
Phil’s degree is in Archeology..
Yup. This was a low key search warrant execution with the USCS Special Agent John Winery and I
taking time out for a man hug while Phil laughs and points at us.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved7.html
This photo is right below the photo of me as Smokey Bear. What a strange career I had.
Ok so you might thing the main ingredient of the retardant slurry is an inert substance not apt to do you harm. There are no long time studies on this toxic substance and I suspect they do not want any long term studies–Yarnell is a study in itself and if you consider 6 years approaching long term then we best beware of the long term effects.
John concerns himself with the environmental effects of mining, a good thing since these big companies have gone hog wild over production for profit with little concern for environment and health of the public. Phosphate mining has been going on in Florida for over 100 years and is now a concern of the problems it is causing and what it is doing to groundwater. Here is information about the situation:
In 1997, a phosphate processing plant spilled 50 million gallons of contaminated water into the Alafia River near Tampa Bay, killing millions of fish. In 2003, the state Department of Environmental Protection and the U.S. EPA got stuck holding the bag when a phosphate company went out of business, leaving a massive amount of environmental waste behind near Tampa Bay. The two agencies opted to hire contractors to treat the waste, load it onto barges and then cruise around the Gulf of Mexico, spraying the waste and hoping for the best. At the time, the cleanup was estimated to cost $141 million
The phosphates, also the main ingredient in retardant slurry, are radioactive as well. The mines south of Tampa, Florida are hugh open pit operations with the scar easily seen from space. But the concerns locally there are a huge sink hole that is 220 ft. in depth so that the radioactive phosphates are now entering groundwater. Phosphates and radioactivity both have cumulative negative effects on health. Phoshpates cause arterial disease and renal problerms. They are substances you do not want in your groundwaters, especially since there is also radioactive elements that contaminate the slurry as well.
The main ingredient of Phos-Chek is of course the ammonium phosphates–and generally make up 85-95% of the retardant.
Much depends upon other added chemicals such as the borates and iron oxides that give the orange look and of course the secret chemicals that the companies do not want you to know. And these are very big companies:The first Phos-Chek retardant product was available in 1962. The Phos-Chek brand belonged to the Monsanto Company until 1998, when ownership was transferred to Solutia Inc. In 2000, Astaris LLC acquired the Phos-Chek name. In November 2005, Astaris LLC was acquired by Israel Chemicals Ltd. (ICL),[16] and the Phos-Chek brand was renamed “Phos-Chek Fire Safety Group” and assigned to the Performance Products division of ICL (ICL PPLP).[17]
So you see that there are big concerns by the EPA in Florida where they are spending 141 million dollars to clean up the environment and have great worries of the phosphate contamination of groundwater by these chemical toxins. Yet there is little concern as these chemicals are used to saturate soils as fire retardants and do certainly seep themselves and their radioativity into groundwater.
Yarnell has been saturated with these phosphates–phosphates by the way are stable compounds and are not biodegradable. So I wonder how much the EPA would be willing to spend on clean up of the Yarnell area now that the Yahoos that are in charge of retardant slurry drops have saturated the town and its immediate environment.
Not much I can say–you are dealing with some of the meanest and richest people supplying these chemicals. Monsanto is high on that list of offenders, but Solutia, Altaris, and Israeli Chemicals will not hesitate to put some millions into the propaganda defending their money trees.
Yarnell–where the desert air meets the mountain air contamination.
I failed to mention the dead zones in the oceans now along the pacific coast where there is nothing but a red algae that survives—the bright orange and red that we associate with the color of the phos-chec slurry. Nothing is said about the connection to the billions of tons of the retardant that have been dumped on wild fires over the past decades along the drainage that all empties into the pacific, yet those phosphates have to be a major player in those dead zones.
So not only human health is involved but even our oceans are at risk with this. Of course these are my own opinions and you are welcome to draw your own conclusions–this is Ameerica and if you want to take cyanide I will not detain your American freedom to do so–however I will try to keep you from suicide if I am able. Yet I can not do much to hold back Monsanto, et. al., from plastering you with their chemicals–just hope we can avoid ingesting the crap best we can and maybe some politician or person of clout will take notice to the effects on places inundated with the toxins and make some redress to the people that have been affected–namely citizens such as Yarnellites and wild land fire fighting heroes along with other contaminated people handling the chemical toxins.
I wish the people who send links to John MacLean’s to learn about fire because one family member feels that is the only space to go but I want to continue to take you here:
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/phoenix-az/shirley-horozinski-7435638
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/phoenix-az/clifford-horozinski-7771284
because that is the true story of Yarnell – it is not just 19 – it is just too many to count since the fire…
breaks me up-
I am watching you all on this seasons fire and I am really watching so Ms Legarza one day you will know my name if you keep allowing this reckless slurry drops…
WE MATTER!
Our lives as civilians and firefighters MATTER!
Sorry Shawn- I have knocked on your parents door and there was no answer but it was “XR650L, Just Crazy in Yarnell, AZ.” that I saw the home for sale and I never knew it was for them- I then googled and saw the news that way
I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sad
beyond.
WAKE UP some of you folks who want to LABEL this page something but a FREE place to EXPRESS
WAKE UP!!!!
also YOU NEED some OLD SCHOOL folks on the WOODBURY NOW
YOU HAD THAT FIRE UNDER CONTROL AT APPX 40 Acres-
then we have to hear Yarnell Hill Todd Abel do his public SHIT
I am documenting this
you are not gonna pull this shit again and again
1. Keeping a fire under control at 40 acres doesn’t get the $ flowing. You gotta think big!
2. WTKTT, Can you remind me what the judge said to the plaintiff in the BAM v. Collura case at the ruling? Wasn’t it something to the effect of ‘this is a high profile, nationally media covered tragedy. Whether you like it or not people are going to talk about it for years to come.’ Wasn’t it something like that?
Not BAM…ABM. Amanda Marsh v. Collura.
that court case is on Gary’s blog
But a good acronym for Amanda–BAM BAM Marsh.
well anyway, acronym for Bad Ass Marsh — Nothing makes much sense with BAM BAM –We need the pros that only do case profiling to understand much– simple Psychology bat hides won’t do it justice. Well her importance in this is minuscule aside the actual evaluation of the perpetrator Eric Marsh. That I would hope someone has already done or is doing considering the magnitude of the Yarnell deaths. A free-lance or retired expert in that field likely already has had some thoughts on it. With much more out to the public about Marsh and his background there is evidence enough for such determination of the likely reasons Marsh would do thing that would cause the death of his crew.
The importance of such an evaluation is crucial to the wild fire fighting safety and operations. It is not to disparage Marsh–he had done that for himself–but to enlighten people on hiring practices and people that would not qualify when lives are at risk, especially if they should want to take a supervisory position–such as Marsh did and everyone in hindsight sees the disaster it was.
People should be looking forward and using the experience Marsh gave to enlist better management and hiring techniques. That looks to be what RTS, Woodsman, WTKTT, Gary and so on as long time bosses want to happen. They need all the resources they can get in proposing changes–why such fellows as experienced in FBI evaluations should be contributing. This after all is a national tragedy on the highest level and those in the FBI departments are still considered as the look to people to evaluate situations of this magnitude.
I think Dr. Ted would be well qualified to a fair degree, but there are those in the FBI that have spent decades looking at criminal behaviour and the people that commit crimes of various sorts. Of course it has to officially labeled a crime and since the GMHS crew was working many states and I would guess classed as Federal Employees then we might get some very good evaluations of not only Marsh but even the people involved with having him come out of a safe zone and even those foolish enough to put him in charge of those young GMHS crew members.
I had used the Ubuntu OS Linux operating system for years when I lived out on the desert and started about the time Joy and I started our hikes and she found my pedigrees blown all over the desert and brought them back to show me. Bat hides are nice but not so important to my way of thinking to frame them and hang them on the walls like some hunters do the heads of the dead animals they had been making cheeseburgers out of. Education has it limits and in certain instances and for certain individuals it has become a box from which they may never escape–well at least their egos may never escape. If it does escape, the true person might be known and much of the brown cloud of advancement might be cloroxed away. A fresh breath of air might be emitted from between the lips of those impressed by their own horseshit.
Do not think I am against education–fine thing, most of our people descendant from Ireland — if they do not respect knowledge and learning can not be Irish. I do not know what this has to do with fire fighting except that when the Twin Towers came down that line of fire fighters that gave their lives attempting to save the injured and trapped were 90% descendant from the Irish race. It makes you no better or worse if you are not Irish–but there are some advantages to being one.
The luck of the Irish–and you need only look at my recent history–say since the Yarnell fire to think there might be something to that. I won’t bother you about the many lucks and many years before that–but miners and fire fighters need all the luck they can get.
But in my case I have the leprechaun to deal with and of course the Irish Goddess Dana–beautiful woman and a hell of a space craft to get around in. She learned to manipulate DNA better than any other scientist many millennia ago. Of course there is the Blarney stone, St Patrick who could run the snakes out of Ireland–many of those were of Engilsh decent.
Then there is a love of potatoes–they say they started in Peru but if so it took the Irish to make them edible and delectable.
But in the end we are all humans–living our ways and proud to be Americans yet also cognizant of our roots–that matters much since it defines who we are to an appreciable degree and also our role as free Americans.
I hate it when Trump says we will make America Great Again–America is, was and always will be great as long as it exists and we are alive.–It is some that run the show that are not so great. Maybe somewhere along the line he will be able to make Trump great again?
The pressure cooker thing is real–my mom would pressure cook beans on a gas stove when we had one–It was more often she cooked on a camp fire–even when I was going to high school classes. But on the camp fire she boiled them in a pot. One instance she opened that pressure cooker too soon and fortunately when the lid flew up she had her head out of the way–it hit the ceiling and beans were plastered everywhere. Beware of those old time pressure cookers and best if you use one to get the stainless steel variety with a lock that only opens once it is cool and safe enough to open.
You likely know all this, but there might be a few that do not. Could save a life there–where knowledge is valuable –as had Donut and the others had knowledge of the LCES and adhered to them as you should the pressure cooker safety, then we would not be talking about their deaths and the reason for them.
Even I as a citizen know that is the acronym for Location, Communication, Escape, and Safety and if I were a wild land fire fighter I could associate that with the procedures and meanings connected to LCES to keep me alive. Do you think Eric Marsh knew what they meant? Maybe he did not know they had safety rules and you just obeyed blindly the orders from those in superior positions. He was stubborn but was that stubborn to follow orders regardless of the consequence?
It is the puzzle we need to know–why I would appreciate some very expert opinions from such as I mentioned –those behavioral scientists that have spent decades of their lives in the study of human factors and human behaviors.
Over the years I have met several retired FBI and CIA–some of them very good at looking at these types situations were a man wantonly kills others. Well Charley Mosley is dead now-Ted would have known if this would have been his expertise–but these people are out there and would afford some damn good input here.
The great thing about IM and John D. –he does not discriminate–here you can say your piece–and if it is off then you might get some flack. But that is good. And even Amanda, you would not be banned like you do people–here you could say your mind–and be welcomed to do so.
America is a delightfully free speech country. Thank you John Daugherty for keeping it that way.
Reply to Charlie post on June 25, 2019 at 2:17 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I had used the Ubuntu OS Linux operating
>> system for years when I lived out on the desert
A true cowboy/desert-rat who also knows about Ubuntu.
You continue to amaze!
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> It makes you no better or worse if you are not Irish –
>> but there are some advantages to being one.
Old Irish Proverb…
“Má tá an t-ádh ort a bheith Éireannach …
tá an t-ádh ort.”
“If you’re enough lucky to be Irish…
you’re lucky enough.”
Oh my–that is a perfect Irish Proverb–Thanks WTKTT–I will remember that one.
Reply to Woodsman post on June 23, 2019 at 8:03 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> 2. WTKTT, Can you remind me what the judge said to the
>> plaintiff in the BAM v. Collura case at the ruling? Wasn’t it
>> something to the effect of ‘this is a high profile, nationally
>> media covered tragedy. Whether you like it or not people
>> are going to talk about it for years to come.’
>>
>> Wasn’t it something like that?
Yep.
On January 8, 2015, Prescott Judge Arthur Markham looked directly at Mrs. Amanda Lohman/Marsh, who was right there in front of him in his courtroom, and said…
————————————————————————————
I’m afraid that the tragedy that happened June 30, 2013 was something that we’re all gonna be livin’ with the rest of our lives. It’s just a… it was a… a kick in the gut for the whole community. Countywide plus statewide, nationwide. One of those great tragedies that just… ya know… it’s one of those things that one can remember where one was when one first heard about something like that… and that’s gonna be a great emotional impact on everybody… and because of it being such a major event… that means people are gonna continue to have opinions about it, talk about it, have meetings about it, have memorials about it… all the different things that come along with great national tragedies like that.
I am NOT going to tell ANYONE to not speak about your husband.
The fireman Marsh certainly was a hero… but was one of the 19… and certainly was a supervisor… and there’s just things that people talk about or whatever.
I’m afraid that’s just something one has to live with… and the fact that there WILL be PUBLIC discussion and PUBLIC opinions about what happened and WHY things happened or WHO was or was not responsible.
———————————————————————————–
I had watched an interview of one of the pilots that had dropped the A-Bomb on Nagasaki and Heroshima. You would think it would weigh heavy on anyone’s conscience to wipe out a 100,000 people, mostly women and children on one bombing run. There were soldiers but most had to be at war. Yet he seemed to have no qualms and could justify it by his words having saved maybe millions of our own soldiers and people and even the Japanese since the war was ended quickly after the second bomb. He said it was no problem, he would do it again if a similar situation came up.
Now we come to the modern day pilot dropping on the enemy–the wild fire about to consume residences. Because Yarnell has perhaps by default or fate become a grand Forest Service and Federal experiment with so many known deaths and illnesses after the 2013 wild fire and the subsequent Tenderfoot Fire where massive loads of retardant were used to saturate the environment surrounding Yarnell, I wonder what the new attitude will be.
Will the pilots continue to willfully dump this toxic substance near human residences. Or on the other hand will he consider the devastating fact that he will be killing the elderly and spreading chemical related disease among his fellow citizens. Yes, I know–the corporations that make this shit will yell loudly that this is an inert substance as far as humans go–only aquatic life is killed instantly and look how nicely the ground is fertilised besides. Those homes will be saved, people will be happy when they return with their belongings intact.
Of course at Yarnell the high winds defeated the retardant dumps in almost all instances. The few houses that might be accounted for can not justify the millions spent to protect them. The main part of Yarnell burned on the same level had no retardant been used–but indeed the corporations and perhaps some stock holders did get a decent profit from the runs. Pilots drew their good pay and sadly they could not locate or the danger was too high to drop on the trapped GMHS crew. In fact that would have made the millions spent worth the money and I wonder why there are not jumbo jets circiling with the only purpose of aiding wild fire men in case they do a foolish thing or by accident get caught so a massive retardant dump might save them.
So I wonder what the justification will be now that we know how deadly these chemicals react, not only on fish and aquatic life, but citizens and the men who are constantly exposed to this toxic slurry.
Joy, I hope you continue to post these obituaries–they hit home–Good God, to have your next door neighbours die as did Cliff and Shirley did, then you own experience of dying with a heart attack and cancers escalated, then you also look down the street either way and every other house is a death house, then you realise that the fish are not the only ones in danger from the toxic slurry dumps. I could not be the pilot to drop anywhere near residences–but I suspect as that Nagasaki pilot did–excuse and justification will be summoned–the devil you say. .
Timothy Ingalsbee is quoted heavily in the 2017 article below.
Timothy Ingalsbee is the executive director of Oregon-Based Firefighters United for Safety, Ethics, and Ecology (FUSEE) and former Forest Service and National Park Service firefighter, told Earther.
FUSEE was the group that actually filed the original lawsuit to FORCE the Forest Service to actually do an ‘Environmental Impact’ study on fire retardant.
The Forest Service had already been dropping the shit for YEARS without ever having done any such study.
The PROBLEM now, though, is that even FUSEE has its head up its ass and doesn’t even realize the scope of the problem.
It is FUSEE, itself, that is now pushing for fire retardant to ONLY be used ‘close to homes and structures’. They argue that it does absolutely no good being dropped out in the boondock where there are no targets of value to protect and no ground crews around to augment the protection it offers.
Unbelievable.
Article Title: Blanketing California in Fire Retardant Is Potentially Very Harmful
Published: 12/11/17 11:41am
By: Renee Lewis
https://earther.gizmodo.com/blanketing-california-in-fire-retardant-is-potentially-1821181258
In the article above… first we hear FUSEE Executive Director Timothy Ingalsbee say this…
——————————————————————–
“These chemicals do not have a benign effect on the environment. They can be toxic—particularly to fish and aquatic species,” Timothy Ingalsbee, executive director of Oregon-Based Firefighters United for Safety, Ethics, and Ecology (FUSEE) and former Forest Service and National Park Service firefighter, told Earther.
Fire retardant—which is fertilizer mixed with water and other chemicals—slows the rate of a fire’s spread by coating its fuels and thus depriving it of oxygen. Federal use of the stuff has exploded in recent years, from about 8.5 million gallons in 2012 to 19 million gallons in 2016.
At certain concentrations, chemical retardants can kill local fauna outright. In 2002, a U.S. Forest Service fire retardant drop landed in Fall River, near Bend, Oregon. The red liquid killed 22,000 fish in a four-mile stretch of river in one day.
Forest Service regulations stipulate that fire retardant is not to be dropped within 300 feet of any waterway.
———————————————————————–
Then, later in the same article, the same guy ( Ingalsbee ) slings this astonishing bullshit…
———————————————————————-
“Fire retardant can be most effective when it is dropped ahead of a fire in conditions where ground crews can then take advantage of the slowed spread, Ingalsbee said. But too often, it is dropped in areas where it will do no good, he added.
The best place to use fire retardant is near communities where human life is at risk, and where ground crews have access to get in and fight the fire that is being slowed by the retardant.
The worst is dropping it in ‘wildlands’ where there are steep slopes, dense forests, and no ground crews. In that case, the fire may be slowed, but with no crews to stop it, it will eventually just burn through the retardant, Ingalsbee said.
“Basically, they’re dumping it in the wrong times, places, and conditions where it’s least likely to be effective,” Ingalsbee said.
——————————————————————–
“The BEST place to use fire retardant is NEAR communities where HUMAN LIFE is at risk.”
Keep in mind… THIS is the guy ( and the organization ) that leads the fight AGAINST the use of fire retardant… but he still thinks it’s better to use it NEAR communities.
WTF?
The fall river was nothing compared to the phosphates : just one headline on the Florida area :
A massive fish kill is currently underway in Florida. Hundreds of thousands of dead fish can be seen “for miles” in Indian River Lagoon.
Phosphates and retardant runoff with the major constituent phosphate (Phos-Chek) have been determined to be the major reason those fish are dead. Those phosphates also contain radioactive elements to add to the toxins of the environment. The mines south of Tampa about 40 miles had been abandoned and cost an estimated 140 million dollars to clean up. Not only that a sink hole in the area has allowed contamination in groundwater.
You do not want to consume phosphates–renal problem arise and your arteries plug up. I have six stents with after those trips through the retardant soot. I think that was instigated by the ammonium phosphates I was breathing and being subjected to with the hikes. Since leaving the area and falling dead from the heart attacks I have had two catheters run to my heart–now things are clear but the damage is done–at least the doctors say I have only about 50% of my heart that now functions. The rest is dead. I do have renal problems now –something else to address–where before this massive retardant dump there were none. All this came on too fast to be just happenstance. I tell this because perhaps it will get these dumb asses that would dump near residences an understanding that they are doing damage to the health of people and even killing them much like the fish and aquatic life they have killed in the hundreds of thousands. Strangely that includes sea plant live as well since the dead zones where fish can not live also includes any plant life below the red blooms of algae that was spawned by the phosphate and retardant run off.
This is very serious–even more serious in death count at Yarnell than the 19 deaths of GMHS. But I expect them to turn a blind eye because the companies involved are some of the wealthiest from their retardant polluting dumps. They will not want to loose their goose with a golden egg despite the fact the goose is shitting all over the public and fire fighters health.
And especially if a Type 1 IMT is involved, I seriously doubt the fire will be kept at anything close to resembling a mere 40 acres.
Yep. I.just looked it up, 10,000+ acres 0% contained. Gotta draw the big box and burn it all off. Fuel reduction project and big $ Rollin. Admittedly, I’m not only biased, I’m jaded. I’ve seen it too many times. Let me see if I can dig out the flight following data I had that sure looked like aerial ignition to me. I thought we needed to reduce carbon emissions because of sea level rise & everything? I’m so confused…
Whoops! I was looking at old information. 96,307 acres now and 25 % contained. Now we’re gettin somewhere!
That’s what I call a box that would even make GSM Natl Park blush.
How about 96,000 acres and decreasing containment from 34% to 25% this morning
( https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-wildfires/2019/06/23/woodbury-fire-burns-over-96-000-acres/1541269001/ )
How about they’re doing what I’ve said they do for years? If the general public only knew…
Did it at Yarnell too.
sure did- that is coming out soon
will they bring Jeff Whitney back to console any loved ones…for the next moment…just a matter of when so get your suits read Jefe
The decreased contained is because they drew a bigger box on the map in Plans. Look at the shape of the fire. What does that tell you. Bravo, team 2, bravo!
RTS,
In your professional opinion, and due to your familiarity with the area, what do you believe are the primary barriers to suppression at the Woodbury fire? Howw has it been so difficult to keep to under 100k acres? (We may as well call it 6 digits as it will probably be there by morning.)
In short, am I full of crap or is something “funny” going on here? You can tell me if im full of crap. I’m a big boy.
RTS,
I’d like an answer to this question, please. Do you have any insight? Whats going on down there? Thanks!
Woodsman,
Thanks for being patient and reminding me. Been busy ya know
In my professional opinion, I believe the primary barrier to suppression at the Woodbury Fire was pure unadulterated POLITICS.
The Superstition Mountains are some pretty rough country for sure with lots of natural barriers, however, those are usually surmountable in spite of how rugged they are.
Several folks familiar with the initial stages of the Woodbury Fire stated that Air Attack ordered quite heavy on Air Support and it was denied.
And the IA (Type 1 IHC) had it picked up at 40 acres, then told to let it burn.
Whatever IMT was in charge did their very best to fire off as much of the entire Superstition Wilderness Area as possible and they proceeded to follow suit, as directed to do so.
Today only a few isolated columns were showing in the afternoon.
It was a man-caused fire and yet they fired off it as if it was a Resource Benefit Fire, and pretty aggressively based on the smoke color and smoke columns with both ground and aerial ignitions.
And had 14 plus HS Crews on it from the SW and elsewhere.
It’s easy to keep it under 100 acres and certainly under a 100,000 acres if left alone to do one’s suppression job.
You were right about the 6 digits as it was there by the next evening.
In short, you are definitely NOT full of crap. Something “funny” was definitely going on here, and unless the public or investigative reporters look into in in detail, the USFS will have effectively pulled the wool over everyone’s eyes … AGAIN!
Thank you for confirming my suspicions on the suspect initial attack suppression actions in the superstitions. The taxpayers should know where their money went: to pay for a 200,000 ACRE fuel reduction prescribed burn under the guise of a wildfire that could have easily been held to less than 100 acres. That level of risk exposure to resources is unacceptable, much less the waste of money. Looks like they got away with another one. Bastards…
I have not read all the comments lately but IF it meant FREEDOM OF SPEECH – Our First Amendment – God Bless You – Keep being YOU…
because since Spring 1994 I do not know what ever happened to ONE specific man WHO signed off on so many certifications over the years that are in my public records…
If you ever thought about it, sir- YOU – I know one that has unfriended you besides a long time friend of yours… your own shadow did
Was the name of your shadow called “Bad Luck” ???? Bad something…
Guess what pal- many of us do not get the life WE want but we do get the life God made for us to do HIS PURPOSE and you owe it to so many to tell the truth ASAP-
Something happened to you, something you were not responsible for, something that at the moment it occurred put a huge stain on your quest for happiness and your heart. Yes, you carry a stain that no-one is now able to remove…no-one but God.
Today is YOUR day, sir.
call it whatever you like it’s there, and if I don’t remove it things will stay the same… and probably get worse… GIVE IT TO GOD FINALLY ,/b> and stop leading a pretend way. Sixty Seven Years Old is the New Young Man so time to fresh start your world with HONESTY…
I can’t explain why it took so long for you. Perhaps that thought – that suffering would help you better appreciate the happiness and abundance that’s soon to enter you life. Who knows?
Give it to God, sir.
He will not let you down as you have seen as each year passes…it is your time…
Are you talking about Willis Joy? I liked Willis–he is a smooth guy–but I never understood how he would be one to foster the lies.
Well you never can judge a book by its cover–in fact there are some books with a pretty cover but ugly reading.
Joy had sent me the obituaries to Cliff and Shirley and I see posted here as well–sad they were my next door neighbors–Cliff had watched the Hydrogen bomb off his ship when in the Navy–he had not known because of his health problems he was entitled to at least $75,000 for being a guinea pig. The fall out had inundated the ship.
He was having some health problems but you would have thought Shirley would live to be a centarian. Both dead–and their next door neighbor lost her husband and came down with breast cancer after the fire. Up the street a couple houses lived the librarian that had that open heart surgery. The lady one house down from me died before I left Yarnell–she looked to be in good health and you would not imagine her death–Joy and I had visited these people often and Joy did quit a bit of work to help Clifford apply for that benefit he well deserved. Sad he will never collect.
From that lady that died just two house down and only a couple houses more was where Brent lived as quadriplegic. He looked to be in good health but came down somewhat about a year after the fire–young and you would have thought he had many more years left in him. Across almost was Bob whose house burned to the ground–last Joy said he was on his death bed with cancer. We talked with him often and I would have thought him to live to a hundred.
These are only the ones I knew on that street–I am certain there are others and Joy knew them all and how they are doing.
I had tried to post this so I may have posted again–I had lost the post but thought the effort to rewrite it a wake up call for the Yarnellites and again anyone exposed to those toxic substances dispersed as retardants.
Quite a lot of retardant was dispersed right along that street where my cabin was and in that area. .
for the people still alive…we got this…for the remembrance of those no longer able may it be disease or died… with God all things are possible!
Gary, the stuff that comes out this Summer no judge will entertain any problems to IM –
you all just learned the falsifications…the Andrew fella and there is more to come to show the entire fire in pure form…and yeah, Gary…God is in control so no one here has to concern to any suits even you as healthy as you are…
THE TRUTH was a tough area to bring to the light especially when one kept distracting and redirecting to false areas…
Hugs to anyone needing one tonight.
Joy just sent two obituaries–unbelievable. My next door neighbor Clifford Horowinski just passed a short time ago. His wife has now followed–Shirley Marie Horowinski. This man served the Navy and was one of the guinea pigs assigned to watch the Hydrogen bomb off his Ship.
He did not know he was entitled to a minium payment of $75,000 for that ordeal due to the fall out exposure he suffered. He will not get to collect and was very deserving of that money and some of the illness he suffered after. But you see he is dead and now also his wife Shirlely who Joy and I had many occasions to visit with these fine people.
This is the stuff we see at Yarnell and it seems to be never ending with both your next door neighbor and wife now deceased. I know Cliff had some health problems but his wife was in excellent health.
I tell you that town of Yarnell is another Chernobyl in high gear. People are just not recognising how toxic the town has become after the slurry dumps. I truly believe had I remained a resident I would be deceased by now. We do not know how some of the residents that left Yarnell after the fire are doing. The ones we did visit were having health problems as well.
This is horrible since the lady next door to Cliff and his wife had come down with cancer some time after the fire–her husband had deceased as well. Almost next door to that lady was the librarian that had to suffer open heart surgery some months after the fire. I do not know if she is still alive.. Her husband had passed as well.
This should be a wake up call to residents there and wild land fire fighters of age. The young seem to tolerate this toxic soup but the elders are given their death knoll when exposed to it.
I should mention the other way down the same street just one house past the lady next door was another widow that we would often speak with. Joy knows her well and her kin–that lady has passed since the fire as well. and just up the street next house down was Brent who I mentioned buying his Gibson guitar with my initials SG on it in pearl. Brent was a quadriplegic–we often visited had a few beers together, yet he too had succumbed about a year after the fire–despite his quadriplegic condition he was quite well and able to function off the wheel chair and at his youthful age you would have thought he had many years left.
Across the street almost was Bob–his house burned to the ground but he stayed in Yarnell–now down with cancer almost to his death bed. He was pert and you never would think he would be less than a centarian. I do not know the others on that street though Joy does and I suspect the few left are not doing so well.
Just in case you haven’t been keeping up with current events Joy…FUCK MACLEAN And the horse he ride in on, NEIL, JUST DONT NEED THEM OR WANT EM.!
Sonny wrote,
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvii-here/#comment-479264
And then I wrote,
Yes…I finally realized you are right a few years ago and apologized to you for doubting what you think. The truth is…I don’t know the first fuckin’ thing about what any of those chemicals did to my body.
I do know what excessive and continual wild fire smoke did to my body and now I have a terminal pulmonary diesese that is incurable and will shorten my life by an unknown number of years, but the experts agree on one thing…it will shorten my life.
So you know…fuck it, I have gone back to putting as much salt on my Mexican 🇲🇽 food as I want to. 😎
And now I write,
And I will tell you one more thing that I think was and is a bad idea. And that was and probably still is having a bunch of dumb ass kids like I used to be running around without adult supervision, proper training or even any training at all, in addition to not having the correct Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) like respirators, specific gloves and outer wear you know…MIXING OUR OWN FUCKIN JELLIED GASOLINE, OTHERWISE KNOWN AS NAPALM by mixing a very toxic and dangerous chemical called ALUMGEL, which I think is based on aluminum powder.
“EZFire Gelling Agent
Western Helicopter Services is a worldwide distributor of EZFire. This product has been manufactured since the early 1960’s and has come in a variety of names. Originally it was called M3 Incendiary oil (Napalm) or Alumagel and was used primarily for military operations. Since then it has also been referred to as SureFire and Firetrol, and now under its current name EZFire.“
So…just FYI, I don’t think this was, or is a very good idea either. M3 INCENDIARY OIL, OMGosh! When one of my best friends, former squad bosses, former Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Bosses was a few days away from death due to the failure of some of his major organs, he told me he was convinced the Alumagel powder he inhaled doing prep work for large scale helitorch operations was what was killing him.
http://www.westernhelicopterservices.com/EZFire.html
The only way some if the decisions made by REMF, make any sense at all, is if you consider people to be merely statistics and not human beings.
“Since then it has also been referred to as SureFire and Firetrol,
and now under its current name EZFire.“
You gotta love the marketing geeks.
Forget what it might actually DO to people… just give it a ‘catchy name’.
EZDeath is ‘catchy’ too… but I’m sure that wasn’t considered.
Disgusting.
I mean…M3 Incendiary Oil! OMGosh…how scary does that stuff sound?
Oh yes…and I did bring along a 55 gallon drum if M3 with me, just in case…ahhhh, you know…we need it.
Oh…you mean EZFire?
You beat me too it, but great minds think alike. Or in this case…one okay mind and one great processor.
Oh I do hate to hear that Gary and I know you are not one to pout about it. Neither am I about my own situation –what happened and what we did at the time was the best of our ability and knowledge at the time, and for certain I never thought these chemicals would later in life reveal themselves as they have. We always assumed and even were told that the radiation and chemical exposure was nothing to worry about concerning health. We believed it. It of course was a lie, and now with what I see–important people are cut short the years that their expertise and wisdom and their time should not be a time of suffering and dealing with these horrible health situations.
I know I harp a lot about the health thing–but we saw Charlie Mosley die not long after he visited us at Yarnell. He had been a smoke jumper you might have known–even later worked CIA. His friends and Ted Putnam, all acquainted and wild land fire fighters or smoke jumpers all reek of health problems. Of course most of us do not care to speak much about them nor necessarily want people to know. I think the reason that not much is said about what is going on in that industry–the corporations, people demanding the use of these chemicals are glad for that. They are not happy to lay out any of the billions they make to make right the problems their chemicals have caused to the men having to use them.
I know that the retardant to many is seemingly a harmless chemical–some would gladly eat it to show that. And they are correct–you can eat it and get by with doing that for some time. You can breath it and get by for some time unless you are already compromised in your health or you are elderly and your immune system is not that of a 20 or 30 year old.
This is what Joy and I have observed at Yarnell–for a fact, the death rate after the wild fire of 2013 and the subsequent Tenderfoot fire is way beyond coincidence. The many sick that were doing well before the fire is alarming. It brings on a sadness, especially when they were friends and associates that you had often visited and socialised with.
My war time veteran status qualifies me for medical care–and now even doctors of my liking. That must be applied to the warriors who fight wild fires and are exposed for any time to that deadly slurry and other chemicals you mentioned. Good lord mixing that napalm and the chemicals there are a guaranteed ruination of health over time.
Somewhere down the line I believe we will know much more about the hidden chemicals. With what I witnessed at Yarnell as far as the high death and disease rate, I think it safer to let a town burn than use the chemicals they did there. I know in the case of Yarnell the town burned despite the use of the retardant and at the rate according to Wooten and Morrison that it would have burned without the use of retardant. The retardant makes a beautiful public display and wonderfully bright photographs for the media.
Rather than the town, I would have hoped they could have jumbo dumped on the GMHS–that would have been well worth the health risk if it could have had any influence on saving their lives.
I personally do not blame anyone for my own health problems–I voluntarily hiked many times–over a hundred through that chemical laden soot–Joy and I often looked like coal miners much like you often see the wild land fire fighter when he is in action. Our ignorance perhaps can not be excused. But I believe these corporations and the Forest Service are fully aware of the effects these chemicals have on health. They have fallen down on their responsibility to warn the fire fighter and the public of the disasters it will cause to life if a person breaths the fumes or is exposed to these toxic chemicals. They have greatly fallen down on taking care of the people they have harmed after the dispersion or use of these toxic chemicals.
If Yarnell was not an experiment to see the effects on human health, it became one by default. The deaths and disease after the slurry drops can not be denied–they are as real as the deaths of the 19 GMHS.
Sonny,
Keep pressing on with the retardant issue because it’s very real and otherwise being ignored
In the Fall of 1987, on the Klamath NF in Northern CA, the smoke inversions were some heavy that we did not see the sun for weeks at a time and the US Army was there with their “oxygen tents” and medical personnel doing unauthorized blood testing of firefighting personnel because the Government had been trying to create a “nuclear winter” scenario on RX Burns to no avail.
And here was the perfect opportunity.
<Many older folks died over the Winter, likely from the incessant smoke inversions and heavy carbon monoxide poisoning we were all exposed to as well
RTS: Well that was a repetition of Yarnell–and yes the Army would be there–few know that ultimately the Army is in charge of the Forest and can do what they please on forest lands–that came about after the Japanese started sending over their balloon bombs. So the Army can step in any time they please without any interference from any FS or other Federal officials.
WTKTT mentions that there is a jerk with some clout that is recommending dumps be concentrated around residential areas. After he saw what happened at Yarnell he now wants to make sure and see if it will make more of the elderly ill and send them to their death sooner. This guy has the mentality of the German death squads after knowing what you just wrote about the elderly deaths from that fire with the inversion problem.
The problem is the public is not informed–and in the case of Yarnell they acted with fear to speak out on what really happened at Yarnell. Is John Daugherty the only one in the media brave enough to allow the facts out?
No apology needed Gary–I add salt too my Irish potatoes–not the salt that killed me and my heart–that damn slurry on those many hikes–Yarnell is toxic.
I know understand that I, in addition to many others on this blog have been targeted by on-line trolls and bullies by accusing me for one, of wanting to, or planning to murder GMIHC families from a sniper position.
I say that is enough. In fact, that is way more than enough. Stop and cease and desist in these attacks, harassment and intimidation immediately or I will publish everything I can find out about YOU on-line and ask everyone who disagrees with the despicable tactics that you are using to stop by your homes and explain to you that is not right.
So…quit attacking me and the people I care about or I will fight back and I believe in PSYOPS….BECAUSE PHYSICAL WOUNDS HEAL. Pleae be advised…I am the WRONG guy to fuck with.
Oh…and one more thing. I have started researching my options for SUING AMANDA LOHMAN AND THE ERIC MARSH FOUNDATION FOR DEFAMATION, CALUMNY, VILIFICATION, AND TRADUCEMENT for their communication of a false statement that harmed my reputation! So…knock it off…ASAP.
In order to continually attempt to make sense of the YH Fire and GMHS tragedy, I have been reading a book titled: Blue on Blue – A History of Friendly Fire by Geoffrey Regan. The subtitle of “A devastating assortment of miscalculations, malfunctions and military mishaps – from ancient Greece to the Persian Gulf” brings it a bit more into perspective.
I believe that this directly relates to the leadership (or lack thereof), especially of the Operational (DIVS A) in particular, and the Acting GMHS in general, that virtually mirrors what occurred on the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 22, 1893, as outlined below.
In the chapter on Naval Warfare (pp. 186-220), the author covers the legacy of a prescient, ahead-of-his-times, brilliant tactician – British Vice Admiral Sir George Tryon, Commander-in-Chief of the Mediterranean Squadron of the Royal Navy, that worked tirelessly to improve naval warfare in many aspects, including implementing many of his ideas on training, the introduction of a greater sense of realism into fleet maneuvers, and revision of the signal book because they communicated with pendants. Admiral Tyron was never comfortable with the status quo.
“His intellect allowed him to dominate everyone around him” and one fellow officer noted it was no use arguing with him and it was better to acquiesce quietly. But this very quality was to bring ruin on him. He wanted his men to show drive and take initiative in the way that he always had. However, he found that the majority of the naval officers feared his reputation, so that none dared to stand up to him or challenge him or suggest that he was wrong.
However, in the end, likely during the fog of war, he fell victim to these attitudes and perceptions toward him.
On maneuvers near Beirut, Admiral Tyron proposed a difficult test to his captains, crews, and fleet of eleven battleships, in his iron clad HMS Victoria. As the columns began approaching the Syrian coast, the Admiral issued instructions to his staff for the distance between the two ships columns to be maintained at six cables (1,200 yards) and for each ship in turn to turn inwards to make a 180-degree turn, similar to the Army’s about-face.
However, a small problem was obvious to his staff commander. The leading ships of both columns (HMS Victoria and HMS Camperdown) each required eight cables (1,600 to 1,800 yards) leeway to safely make a 180-degree turn. When questioned by his staff commander, Tryon initially conceded that it would require eight cables , however, for whatever reason, he later gave the order that the distance between the ship columns should be six cables.
Captain Archibald Bourke, commander of the Victoria, commented: “ open criticism of one;s superior is not consonant with true discipline, and so he chose do to nothing but to grit his teeth and pray.”
Rear-admiral Markham in the Camperdown knew it was impossible and impracticable and so he waited for a revised order that never came. All he got was waving flags from the Victoria indicating “what are you waiting for?” Admiral Tryon demanded what could at times be absolute obedience from his officers.
Markham complied and the two lead ships (Victoria and Camperdown) turned inward toward each other in their 180-degree turn. As expected, the inevitable happened. The Camperdown’s ram buried itself deep into the starboard bow of the flagship Victoria about 20 feet forward of her turret, about 65 feet from her bow.
Once the Camperdown pulled away it left a jagged hole in her port bow, her stem broken, some forward compartments flooded, but still safely serviceable. However, the Victoria was fatally damaged. There was a great breach 100 square feet open to the sea and water rushed in at 3,000 tons per minute. The Victoria listed starboard and the bows began to sink.
The Victoria rolled over and sank quickly. Admiral Tryon and his 357 officers and men lost their lives in this inexplicable incident. Admiral Tyron’s body was never recovered. Almost 300 other crewmen of the Victoria were rescued, including the Executive Officer, Commander John Jellicoe, who was ill in his bunk at the time.
“ What is more difficult to understand is why Tyron seemed unprepared to admit his error and correct it, thereby preventing a disaster and the deaths of so many of his men. The exchanges with his officers over the figures “six” and “eight” indicate that Tyron did not enjoy being reminded of his first mistake and preferred to risk the consequences of it, whatever those might be, rather than admit to younger and more junior men that their commander was not perfect. ” (p.194)
The subsequent court martial acquitted the surviving officers of the Victoria. The court expressed its regret that Rear-admiral Markham had not protested more strongly against the fatal maneuver, but considered that it was not in the best interests of the Service to censure him for obeying the orders of his superior officer.
This did not go well with Army commanders and the Army Commander in Chief, the Duke of Cambridge, stated: “ A good deal has been said of late as to the freedom being given to inferiors to question and disobey the orders of a superior officer. Discipline must be the law, and must prevail. It is better to go wrong according to orders than to go wrong in opposition to orders. ”
The reaction to this disaster helped lead to a more intelligent interpretation of the past’s rigid and inflexible adherence of “blind obedience” to orders that had blighted the peacetime 19th century Royal Navy.
( http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/tryon-sir-george-4753 )
B. N. Primrose, ‘Tryon, Sir George (1832–1893)’, Australian Dictionary of Biography, National Centre of Biography, Australian National University, published first in hardcopy 1976, accessed online 23 June 2019.
( http://www.navy.gov.au/biography/vice-admiral-sir-george-tryon )
Hopefully, you will recognize the parallels to what occurred on the afternoon of June 30, 2013, as DIV A Marsh adamantly insisted that Acting GMHS Supt. Steed bring them down to the BSR. Steed protested that it was unsafe and either that they could not or would not make it, with an apologetic “I understand and I’m sorry.” Against all training and well-published WF Rules, the GMHS left their perfectly good Safety Zone in the black and dutifully hiked downhill through chutes and chimneys and into a deadly bowl, all choked with unburned chaparral.
And yet, the survivor “lookout” McDo-not stated that they were much smarter than those WFs following the rules because he felt that they were ” Hillbilly ” and old. Third year HS Crewmembers don’t come to that conclusion on their own, so that most likely would have been an accepted GMHS norm. More likely a classic Normalization of Deviance .
“June 22, 1893: British Battleship Sinks British Battleship Without Firing a Shot!” with a video containing artwork and archive photos!
Major Dan (USMC) June 22, 2016
( https://www.historyandheadlines.com/june-22-1893-british-battleship-sinks-british-battleship-without-firing-shot/ )
Thank you for that. Yes… the similarities between Tyron and Marsh are unmistakable, as well as the similarities between Markham and Steed.
When looking for other ( documented ) ‘blunders’ that caused unnecessary loss of life… one might not need look any farther than this example to explain this “greatest tactical blunder in the history of wildland firefighting” which took place in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
The SAD part is that this was NOT the fucking military.
If Jesse Steed has “stood his ground” and knew how to shut-down Marsh’s clever “mitigating speech” and passive-aggressive manipulation(s)…. it is actually NOT likely that Steed would have “lost his job” ( which is what Steed feared even above threats to the safety of his crew ).
No one died in Yarnell ( thank goodness ).
Steed and Marsh might have had a ‘session’ behind closed doors with Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis about what happened out there on the Weavers ( if Marsh hadn’t been killed out in the canyon by himself that day )…. but the ‘evidence’ would have been completely on Steed’s side by then. In hindsight…. REFUSING Marsh’s “order” WAS the correct decision… and nothing would have happened to Steed.
As we pull up on another anniversary of this “greatest tactical BLUNDER in the history of wildland firefighting”… there ARE still important “Lessons to Learn”… but you have to look at what happened REALISTICALLY in order to find the really, really IMPORTANT ‘lessons’.
As the story you relate above shows… when tragedies happen as a result of “Human Factors”…. it is impossible to separate the personalities, reputations and decision-making habits of the individuals involved from the ’causes’ of the tragedy. They are forever a PART of all the circumstances that led to the tragedy itself.
Typo above… sorry.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
If Jesse Steed HAD “stood his ground” and knew how to shut-down Marsh’s clever “mitigating speech” and passive-aggressive manipulation(s)…. it is actually NOT likely that Steed would have “lost his job”
Did you notice that the Admiral Tyron tragedy took place today in 1863?
But the SAIT did NOT look into the “Human Factors” regarding the personalities, reputations and decision-making habits of the individuals involved from the ’causes’ of the tragedy.”
And chose instead the “No violations of negligence, policy, protocol, or procedures” conclusion instead
Or maybe they did and it scared them so bad they abandoned all of it.
One of the SMEs told me early one that they had so much information that they could not and would no release tho the public
You will NEVER be wrong about the Yarnell SAIT “arriving at a conclusion FIRST… and then creating a narrative to support it”.
Brad Mayhew can keep yelling “Bullshit!” at you ( in public or private settings ) all he wants to.
He is just personifying Shakespeare’s quote about when guilty people are usually the loudest ones in the room..
“Methinks he doth protest TOO MUCH”
It is OBVIOUS that is what the Yarnell SAIT did… and you will never be wrong.
It was all about LIABILITY, really.
Publish the TRUTH… and get out the checkbook.
Say you CAN’T BE SURE ( even though you have evidence you are hiding )…. and maybe it will just “go away”.
What they forgot was that once you ask the entire nation ( indeed, the world ) to mourn with you and pay homage to dead people…. SOME of us ( a LOT of us ) aren’t ready to just swallow your bullshit. SOME of us ( a LOT of us ) that stood in lines and went to memorials and donated to widow’s funds actually want to KNOW what the fuck HAPPENED.
And the YEARS that go by don’t change that desire.
What the heck… a little more Shakespeare, anyone?
Foul deeds WILL rise,
Though all the earth o’erwhelm them… to men’s eyes.
Hamlet (1.2.256)
Tick tock… tick tock…
Did you notice that the Admiral Tyron tragedy took place today in 1863?
But the SAIT did NOT look into the “Human Factors” regarding the personalities, reputations and decision-making habits of the individuals involved from the ’causes’ of the tragedy.”
And chose instead the “No violations of negligence, policy, protocol, or procedures” conclusion instead
Or maybe they did and it scared them so bad they abandoned all of it.
One of the SMEs told me early one that they had so much information that they could not and would no release tho the public
Very good analogy RTS. I do not know if Joy still has a photo of the GMHS qualification board and on that board in order to qualify as a hot shot one must strictly obey orders on a daily basis–much like what you saw in that Naval ordeal. The word strictly obey must go up the line so that when a superior requests you to do something, you jump to it with unquestionable obedience–something that Steed indeed fell down on but lost the argument anyhow. And weighing in on Donut and the others who referred to Steed as the Greek God of fire fighting and Marsh as DaddyO –they believed in their masters and had no reason to know much about safety–they thought they were in safe hands with their bosses.
It feeds the ego for the boss but does little for safety when the boss is the wise man and never should be questioned.
It is a good thing being an underground miner since you are the boss and your boss is worth much less than you. In fact he was used as a nipper and with the jack hammer noise it was the reason you seldom saw him except at entry and exit to the shift. Those fellows need to be strictly told that there are safety guides and when those are blatantly being disregarded to qualify as a hot shot you must strictly raise objections to the matter.
Nothing changes if nothing changes.
A few emails to Joy conversing back and forth this morning–share a bit. Joy is not well but is working on some important posts that she hopes to have here by Wednesday or as she can. This Yarnell incident has placed a heavy burnden on so many folks we know and not only have the loved ones suffered greatly but many in the community as well, I will continue to post some about the slurry drops–it is an issue that I see as important and regards the safety of the wild land fire fighter as much as following correct and safe procedures while working on the actual fire edge.
To Joy:
The issue about the 19 is indeed terrible—we have both wept over it–but even that does not compare to the needless deaths of so many at Yarnell–people see the burning deaths as the worse thing and indeed it is horror that you know lasted as long as it took to sear their lungs and kill them by burning and suffocation–perhaps five minutes of horror. But the chemical killing of Yarnell people involves what we are enduring–slow suffering, waking up with tubes down your throat and hours, days and months of destroyed health with all kinds of issues dealing with the medical profession and so on. It becomes a relentless nightmare and some can not handle it–Grant for instance killing himself. We stay in there but it takes a good constitution.
Here Joy is suffering and ill:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 8:22 AM Tex Gilligan wrote:
Not good sorry to hear. I have been doing spring cleaning–yard and inside back to simple but like you it is a slow thing. Yesterday I got in about three or four hours moving liumber from the yard stuff I had left over from building the porch and other projects.
Thinking about Gary–he originally said that retardant was not bad or dangerous–then down with COPD and now with those posts beginning to realise what has taken him down. There are so many of those people that worked the fire that are sick–remember Charley Mosely, and those friends–Putnam with heart disease, and their friend you could see was not well. You look at Norb and he was not fit to climb mountains and just about every one of the older ones had been around it long time are ready to retire but on the edge as well. Trouble with that stuff is if your health is not good then it comes in and finishes you off of gives you a disease like cancer that works on you some time or heart disease or that stuff like COPD.
Email to Joy from Tex:
We were doing good before the fire–worse thing we went though that residue and breathed in that black soot mixed with their chemicals and got some heavy doses–neither of us were that sick like some of the old folks at Yarnell–look at the librarian–she got a heart attack right away open heart surgery. What about that lady down the street–dead. Lady next door stayed inside all the time did not get that much but I bet she is down. Wasn’t that woman that had the dress shop–he husband died and she now took on cancer. Shit that whole town is down sick or affected with a neighbour next door either dead or sick. It looks worse than Chernobyl–only 233 there deaths confirmed out of 12,000 people but they too had the long time effects like happening to Yarnellites. Only Yarnell it comes on much quicker–those chemicals are stronger but you don’t know what they had added to that concoction. Could have been benzene or other stuff. The government is not beyond experimenting and what we saw being dumped there was massive amounts. So just stay away from that as much as you can. I imagine the rains there have diluted it a lot by now and you and I are poisoned as much as we will ever be–but damn them and those pilots that have to know they are dropping poisons on people. But they too might be fooled–yet somewhere they will pay with health issues even if they do not know
I share some of our conversation–well some of what I say to her–not what she says to me. Joy is about to reveal some factual information that a number of people do not want out. It will hurt some feelings and debunk lots of the false representations presented about the Yarnell Hill Fire and operations that were done but hidden from public and the general wild land community. They are essential in understanding why the young heroes were needlessly killed.
However, I think there is also another issue proven at Yarnell involving the Slurry drops and its devastating effects on human health. Being the simple person I am, I am one to look at a situation and when I see the excessive number of deaths and the onset of an enormous increase of similar illness not related to virus or bacteria cause–then I have to look at chemical causes. And the only chemicals before the onset of these deaths and disease increases were the massive slurry drops that surrounded Yarnell.
I realise that many people do not care or want to get involved–I mean even Joy’s Dad did not care that cigarettes were a detriment to his health and laughted at the idea so that he continued to smoke after the loss of one lung and warnings by his doctor. It is that way on the slurry situation and like the cigarette industry, the slurry industry is a multi-billion dollar situation where these corporations will do every sleight of hand to stay in business. Money is master. But it does not make it right when evidence is to the contrary.
I lived in Yarnell only a couple years–a few of the wild land fire fighters honored my small rock cabin by their visits and their hikes with Joy and I to the area where the 20 GMHS crew trekked and their working areas and place of demise.
I have seen how Joy shared her photos, time and efforts toward finding a resolution to the deaths of those men. When she saw the falsehoods presented she became determined to right the wrongs. Joy had lived Yarnell and the Yarnell area approximately 20 years–had made many hikes with Snake Man and others to abandoned mines in the area and was generally known as the Desert Walker of Yarnell. That is what she did.
The librarian that I spoke of who did have to have open heart surgery not many months after the slurry drops was one of many of the Yarnellites that told Joy and I we should drop the issue–let it go and leave it alone. Those men are dead, there was an investigation and that is good enough. And how many times we would hear that from others there. Only a few would agree that there was something amiss and encourage us to continue on her quest. Of course most of the flack was directed toward Joy since she was the brains and director of action. She knew the folks, had lived there and had the good abilities to ferret out the facts.
I admire such perseverance despite the many objections and obvious and purposeful hurdles that have been put in her path by people that have agendas to keep the truth hidden. But I would suggest to them it is a futile thing to do and only delays the inevitable. She will not be denied for she knows the public, the wild land fire fighting people, the loved ones and certainly the deceased have the right to have their true story known.
I am as anxious as anyone else on this site to know what more Joy has to post. Thank you Joy for your brave and good heart.
Yes…I finally realized you are right a few years ago and apologized to you for doubting what you think. The truth is…I don’t know the first fuckin’ thing about what any of those chemicals did to my body.
I do know what excessive and continual wild fire smoke did to my body and now I have a terminal pulmonary diesese that is incurable and will shorten my life by an unknown number of years, but the experts agree on one thing…it will shorten my life.
So you know…fuck it, I have gone back to putting as much salt on my Mexican 🇲🇽 food as I want to. 😎
RTS,
I have reason to believe there have been many, many more “friendly fire” events in wildfire history that have ever been documented as such. I believe it happened at Mann Gulch (see Putnam’s research), Battlement Creek (Gary’s account), Loop (my research I’ll share below), AND finally, Yarnell Hill. Let me know which one’s I’ve left out.
Setting aside the multiple operational failures in all instances of crew leaders doing dumb shit like working in box canyons above fires, moving their crews through unburned fuel, hubris, etc, one simply cannot ignore the facts that show real evidence for the possibility of firing operations being the final nail in the coffin of the series of bad decisions that resulted in hotshot fatalities.
Read this:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-nov-04-me-loopfire4-story.html
I’m going to point out a few key quotes in this article in support of my hypothesis that we have a pattern of friendly fire incidents which also includes the Loop fire.
“On the Loop fire, King believed the biggest danger his men faced was loose rock tumbling down the nearly sheer 2,200-foot-long slope. There was no fire in sight, just light smoke a few ridgelines away.”
If they were upslope they would be able to see if there was fire below them but ‘there was no fire in sight, just light smoke a few ridgelines away?’
“King saw Los Angeles County firefighters working with bulldozers to cut a firebreak at the bottom. He was close enough to hear voices. King heard a helicopter in a canyon to the west. The voices below turned to shouts.”
He saw LA county firefighters working below his Crew? Cutting a fire break with dozers? Were they prepping for a burnout? He was close enough to hear voices. These voices below him he could hear turned to shouts. What were they shouting? What was the reason for the shouting? Is it possible LA County firefighters torched off the bottom of the canyon using their newly constructed dozer line? Is it possible they didn’t know El Cariso was above them when they put fire on the ground and once someone realized what was happening the shouts began?
I think this is the ‘freight train’ like noise El Cariso heard coming their way, a burnout fire racing up the slope. This is just like Mann Gulch, Battlement Creek, and Yarnell Hill.
The Loop, Mann Gulch, Battlement Creek, and Yarnell Hill fires are all examples of friendly fire being the final nail in the coffin of the series of bad decisions that resulted in death to hotshots which were covered up by fire managers so as shield themselves and the system from scrutiny (including prosecution), and as a by-product, increased the odds of its reoccurring in the future. No accountability, no honest reporting, equals no lessons learned.
Sorry. 1st time trying to bold text. I’m a dufus…
Negative on being the bold attempt dufus. Look at my few attempts
Woodsman,
Great article on the Loop Fire. It should definitely be used in wildland fire training sessions to reinforce the hazardous “inherently dangerous” aspect of the job and the potentially fatal consequences from f**king up … or someone else f**king up and you being affected by it.
“King heard a helicopter in a canyon to the west. The voices below turned to shouts.
Then King heard something he had never heard before. It sounded like wind, but it was as loud as a jet engine.
King took a step and noticed the leaves on a bush 30 yards downhill explode like popcorn. At that moment, Leak saw something he had never seen before. The air around him was alive with waves.”
A good anecdotal reference to wearing PPE properly, especially gloves, at the appropriate times. Both are examples of the normalization of deviance. especially the rolled up sleeves. Then again, most of us wore sleeves up on the firelines because that was what was accepted as okay.
“”I screwed up,” he said, looking back on the Loop fire. If only he had been wearing gloves. If only he had rolled down his sleeves.”
“People have said to me, ‘You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time,’ ” he said. “I don’t care what anybody else says…. I blame myself for my crew’s demise. Always have. Always will.
“It’s something I’m not proud of,” he added. “They trusted me.”
Sounds like the GMHS trusting those that were ultimately responsible for their safety and welfare. Misplaced for sure
Over the years, I have heard several older Southern CA HS Supts. say that it was the helicopter rotor-wash that kicked the fire up in the steep, narrow canyon and not a “friendly fire” burnout from below them.
The only fire I can think of where here may have been “friendly fire” firing operation was on the 1994 Mackenzie Fire on BLM land in the rugged Hualapai Mountains near Kingman, AZ. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hualapai_Mountains )
So GTS the following because I can never get the odious WLFLLC links to post here:
“Mackenzie Fire Entrapment (1994)
Tags and Keywords
Incident Date: 6/1/1994
[State]: Arizona
[Date]: 06/01/1994
[Incident Type]: Entrapment
#FireBehavior #Entrapment #Entrapment #ExtendedAttack #Arizona” ”
And below would be the links to take you there. This fire, in my view, was very similar to the YH Fire in many ways regarding fuels, weather, topography (HUGE bowl), and fire behavior,
These three Prescott HS working working the fire with another SW HS Crew already on the fire. They had made a plan to land in the helicopter black, however, the pilot changed his mind on approach (too much ash?) and landed them in the unburned heavy chaparral.
These three PHS then began hiking through the green and ‘a wall of fire came up out of the drainage below them’ and was going to cut them off. They had took hoof it through the green until they found a large boulder pile, only large enough for three, and crawled in there and wrapped their fire shelters around them and plugged openings as best they could.
( Mackenzie_Investigation_1994.pdf and mackenzie_shelter_deployment_1994.pdf ).
If they would have relied on fire shelters alone without the heat sink properties of the boulders, they all would have died
Woodsman,
How about finishing my train of thought, ey.
So then, the supposition was that the other HS Crew down below lit off the drainage below them because – like the YH Fire and the GMHS in the black – they thought these guys were in the black
RTS,
The official report implied helicopter rotor wash caused the flare up at the Loop but I don’t believe it. I believe LA County fire resources, who were constructing fire line at the base of that slope also fired it off. The “heat waves” was the rising convection current from the fire coming up the hill. According to King there was no fire even close to them, only smoke a couple ridges over. The Socal folks who think that may do si because it was in the report, so that must be it.
Are you now saying that you don’t believe crew7 was overrun by fire coming from firing in the Shrine corridor?
Oh, and I never said anything about a HS crew firing anything off at Loop or Yarnell as a source for an entrapment.
Woodsman,
I am absolutely saying I believe GMHS was overrun by fire coming from firing in the Shrine corridor areas. Nothing about a HS Crew doing any firing there, that I know of.
Never implied there was a HS Crew firing out below on the Loop Fire either. Did I post that anywhere? I think not
I did say there was another HS Crew on the Mackenzie Fire that trapped the PHS in 1994
Copy. Must have misunderstood. Thanks
Charlie,
Doesnt this statement from RTS support what you have been saying about the boulders in the GMHS deployment area being a viable solution?
**
** WAS GRANITE MOUNTAIN EVER CORRECTLY ‘CERTIFIED’ AS A TYPE 1 IHC CREW?
>> On June 21, 2019 at 9:19 am, Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> I have the actual firefighters accounts and ( Jeff ) Andrews was the
>> only person ever even came to make some sort of evaluation of the
>> GMHS – there was not any hotshot Supts that stayed 14 days to evaluate
>> the GMHS and that was why Willis only named Andrews but his lie was he
>> sad he could not recall the other 2 names…
>>
>> That was because there WAS no other 2.
>>
>> What really happened was Crews that worked with them on the same division
>> wrote up some shit but that was all- Andrews was the final so to speak
>> solo “evaluator” – That is why Willis in his interview could not remember
>> who they were – it never happened.
>>
>> They never even had Supts even come to their station to check it out – they
>> never watched them – never watched them cut practice line or ANYTHING.
>>
>> On June 21, 2019 at 7:00 pm, Woodsman said…
>>
>> I would also like to say that if it’s true that GMIHC did not follow
>> the written procedures to gain status as a type 1 hotshot crew then
>> this is a really big deal.
>>
>> In the business we call this “pencil whipping.” Unfortunately it happens
>> with individual firefighter qualifications but if this is the case, that
>> an entire city fire department sponsored handcrew was “pencil whipped” into
>> a bona fide type1 hotshot crew, oh boy, that’s bad.
>>
>> Really, really BAD.
>>
>> These are the kinds of things that get people dead.
>> The rules are in place for a reason.
>>
>> On June 21, 2019 at 8:37 pm, Gary Olson said…
>>
>> And I would like to add my two cents worth.
>>
>> One of the significant contributing factors in the destruction of the
>> crew, was their flagrant disregard for the rules. As an organization,
>> there was a general concensus that the ruies just didn’t apply to them.
>>
>> And the truth is, they were right, the normal rules governing how hotshot
>> crews operate didn’t apply to them. I believe this was a part of their
>> crew DNA, they carried to the very end.
Yeah. If true… this is REALLY, REALLY BAD.
– Even worse than Marsh himself “making shit up” on his Prescott employment application(s).
– Even worse than the GM crew cheating on their TIME SHEETS the very day before they burned to death.
– Even worse than GM misreporting serious workplace accidents and/or not reporting them at all.
– Even worse than Donut telling ADOSH what he was TAUGHT… that LCES is ‘hillbilly’ and they were “smarter than that”.
Time for a little ‘refresher’ before this gets discussed further ( which I’m sure it will ).
For crews that are NOT ( somehow ) able to take ‘shortcuts’ and/or ‘game’ the system… here is what the official process of BECOMING a Nationally-Available Type 1 IHC Crew is REQUIRED to be…
National Interagency Fire Center ( NIFC )
STANDARDS FOR INTERAGENCY HOTSHOT CREW OPERATIONS
Chapter 5 – Type 1 IHC Crew CERTIFICATION
https://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/PA_WIDContribution/simplegetfile?dDocName=FSEPRD495259&url=/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd495259.pdf
——————————————————————————————————-
TYPE 1 IHC CREW CERTIFICATION PROCESS
Crew programs seeking to be certified as an IHC will use the following process:
1) A crew requesting IHC status MUST complete an imbedded review. This review is conducted by a current or past IHC Superintendent ( NOT from the home unit ) who will imbed with the crew seeking IHC status on fire assignment.
The imbedded reviewer WILL provide a WRITTEN evaluation of the crew which includes a recommendation to the crew’s host Geographic Area Operations Committee if the crew is deemed ready for certification review. ( sic: Trainee status ).
2) The requesting crew superintendent and their host unit first line supervisor shall complete a draft of the Annual IHC Mobilization Checklist ( Appendix C ) and the Annual IHC Preparedness Review ( Appendix B ) to ensure the crew’s readiness for certification.
3) When Appendix C and Appendix B are complete, the requesting crew host unit or hosting agency will contact the dispatching GACC who will contact the Geographic Area IHC Steering Committee chair to INITIATE IHC certification.
4) The crew has PEER REVIEW for ALL Initial Interagency Hotshot Crew Certfication Forms ( Appendix E ) and incident performance appraisals completed during incident assignments.
5) Certification TEAM will ( then ) be assembled and a TEAM LEADER identified.
6) Date of certification will be negotiated and confirmed.
a. The host unit is responsible for arranging accomodations and providing logistical support for the Certification TEAM.
b. The Certification TEAM will in-brief with requesting crew superintendent and host unit fire leadership/supervisors to discuss objective and agenda for review.
c. Certification TEAM will meet with requesting crew for introductions and provide a briefing of planned activities and expectations.
d. A THOROUGH REVIEW will be conducted of records, plans, crew evaluations, vehicles, facilities, equipment, safety, training, fitness, qualifications, etc.
e. Short-term individual simulations ( i.e., sand table exercises, readiness ) WILL be conducted.
f. Crew field simulations ( drills ), possibly with other resources involved ( i.e., fireline construction, initial attack organization ) WILL be conducted.
g. Requesting crew will conduct an “After Action Review”.
7) Certification TEAM will ( then ) make a recommendation on certification.
8) Certification TEAM closes out with requesting crew and host unit.
9) Certification recommendation
a. If recommended for certification, the Annual iHC Mobilization Checklist ( Appendix C ) is SIGNED by the TEAM LEADER and FORWARDED to the Geographic Area Operations Committee.
b. If NOT recommended, the Certification TEAM should identify the elements in which the crew did not meet the standard and discuss with the crew superintendent and host unit supervisor how the crew may attain those proficiencies in the future.
10) If the Geographic Area Operations Committee ENDORSES the certification recommendation they will ISSUE the FINAL CERTIFICATION DOCUMENTATION and notify the host agency, crew, and Geographic Area Coordinating Group ( GACG ).
11) Final Certification
a. The CERTIFICATION LETTER is FORWARDED by the GACG to the National Multi-Agency Coordination Group and the National Interagency Coordination Center.
b. If NOT certified the DOCUMENTATION and a LETTER of items not meeting standards will be left with the HOST fire management unit.
———————————————————————————————————–
APPENDIX ‘E’ – TYPE 1 IHC CREW CERTIFICATION FORMS / TASKBOOK
11 ( ELEVEN ) full PAGES of ‘Forms’ containing 138 ( ONE-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-EIGHT ) separate ‘Tasks’ that must be successfully performed and evaluated… with a Qualified Reviewer’s signature and date for EACH TASK.
———————————————————————————————————
Notice how much DOCUMENTATION is REQUIRED to be generated at each and every step of this official Type 1 IHC certification process.
But in Granite Mountain’s case… NONE of that CERTIFICATION DOCUMENTATION has ( as yet ) ever seen the light of day.
All there has ever been to go on are Darrell Willis’ verbal half-baked recollections of how it all went down.
Are you guys sure about all of this? I mean…I saw the movie and there was this old guy who said, “I KNOW YOUR CREW IS HIGH SPEED AND LOW DRAG, BUT HOW LONG CAN YOU KEEP DRIVING THEM LIKE THIS?” And then Eric looked him right in the eye without backing down and said, “AS LONG AS IT TAKES!!! I think they were down on the Coronado. I’m going to go look it up…please stand by!
Nope couldn’t find a clip on that scene, but here is the best scene from the movie and exactly what I used to do.
1. Have pop quizzes about the “Watch Outs!”
2. Grab crewmen and threaten to choke them out if they got in wrong!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R-XehoKHLOg
Although this is the scene when they got the word that “HAYS” had in fact, certified them to be hotshots.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XG3hNDnidfk
I think I got that wrong somehow, try this link.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XG3hNDnidfk
Wait, that looks like the same one?
its right, but the ad usually doesn’t play. I would have dropped this by now…but it’s important for the historical record.
And besides that, I think that compared to Darth Vader…I’m doing pretty fuckin’ good with my Anger Management issues. So…fuck off!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5forw5zhkac
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 22, 2019 at 9:15 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Are you guys sure about all of this?
>> I mean…I saw the movie and there was this old guy who
>> said, “I KNOW YOUR CREW IS HIGH SPEED AND LOW
>> DRAG, BUT HOW LONG CAN YOU KEEP DRIVING THEM
>> LIKE THIS?” And then Eric looked him right in the eye
>> without backing down and said, “AS LONG AS IT TAKES!!!
>> I think they were down on the Coronado. I’m going to go
>> look it up…please stand by!
OMG!… you mean there’s no need to keep looking for all the DOCUMENTATION that is SUPPOSED to exist becasue this Type 2 crew got CERTIFIED to be a Nationally-Available Type 1 Interagency Hotshot Crew… because someone actually just FILMED THAT?
Wow. Okay.
And Ooooo… I really liked that scene, too, when the lookout guy was lookouting and the fire was so fast-and-sneaky-and-quiet-like that when he wasn’t lookouting for just one second it crept right up on him and then the guy in the golf cart just appeared and they had to race along getting almost burned up and stuff. That was really cool. I didn’t know golf carts could go that fast.
😎
Wait…what are you trying to say…exactly? Are you suggesting that some of the scenes from the movie MAY NOT be 100% accurate?
Hmmm?
Well… any movie whose entire PLOT is based on establishing, right at the start, that the thousands and thousands of incredibly hard-working men and women who serve on Type 2 firefighting crews are nothing but worthless dogshit HAS to be accurate, right?
Do golf carts really go that fast… or was that just a ‘souped up’ one for the movie?
Facebook wants to know.
What would be the vocabulary term to describe a situation where, as you say, the entire plot of the movie was based on type 2 crews being the lowest form of life AND WE FIND OUT 6 YEARS AFTER THE TRAGEDY THAT GM DIDN’T EVEN QUALIFY FOR IHC STATUS IN THE 1ST PLACE? What the hell is that shit???
Note to dedicated participants of seeking the truth via Investigative Media:
Gird your loins, the apologists are seriously going to lose their collective shit. You’ve been notified. Hold the line, good people! Hold the line!
There are two times per year when things get REALLY weird.
The ongoing annual Arizona Wildfire Academy. ( March )
The ongoing anniversary of the greatest blunder in the history of wildland firefighting.( June 30 ).
Welll..as it turns out, that exchange really did happen in real life obecause I found the clip for it. It’s right at the beginning of this link,
U.S. Forest Service Hotshot Crew Boss;
“You guys are type two, so why don’t you what ducers do best, stay in the back and, uh, mop up our shit.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3qHmuRc1LCo
Plus, I learned what a “Deucer” is, which is a term I had never even heard before.
Still checking on the souped up golf cart question by looking for a clip. Maybe I need a new hobbie? Nahhhhh….I’m good.
You left out the first 3 words of what actor Josh Hopkins said to Brolin/Marsh, which was the whole point of the line and, indeed, the SETUP for the entire PLOT of the ‘fillum’.
“WE are HOTSHOTS. YOU are Type 2″ ( so go mop up our SHIT )”.
And with that single insult to thousands and thousands of men and women who dedicate THEIR lives to wildland firefighting…. this bullshit ‘fillum’ was off to the races.
** Trivia Time **
That ‘scene’ between Josh Brolin ( Marsh ) and actor Josh Hopkins ( USFS Hotshot asshole ) was one of the first one shot for the movie. Hopkins had other committments after having just been ‘killed off’ from the ‘Quanitco’ TV series and he only had that one day to be there.
The scene was shot in your old stomping grounds… at the top of the Pajarito Ski Resort on the north side of the Valles Caldera, New Mexico.
Just moments after that scene was shot, the Black Label Media producers posted an Instagram photo of Brolin and Hopkins yucking it up together.
Here is direct link to that ‘Black Label Media’ PUBLIC Instagram photo…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHAhE4zIx-h/?taken-by=mrjoshhopkins&hl=en
Here is the ‘caption’ that actor Josh Hopkins himself added ( including his spelling mistake ) when he ‘reposted’ the Instagram photo on his own page…
“Just a couple Josh’s fighting Forerst fires”
The VIEW in the BACKGROUND is actually quite a famous one… showing a vista looking SOUTH from that south-facing grassy slope at the top of the Pajarito Ski Resort and out towards the ‘Valles Caldera’ itself.
They are actually standing on that south-facing grassy slope at the top of the Pajarito Ski Resort in the following ( exact ) spot…
Latitude: 35.886001
Longitude: -106.400990
Just click the following link to see exactly where actors Josh Hopkins and Josh Brolin were standing in the photo above… there on that ‘grassy slope’ on the south-side of the hill at the top of the Pajarito Ski resort…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B053'09.6%22N+106%C2%B024'03.6%22W/@35.8864094,-106.4025137,875m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.886001!4d-106.40099
You will see they were standig just a few hundred yards south of the actual ‘ski slopes’ belonging to the Pajarito Ski Resort.
“WE are HOTSHOTS. YOU are Type 2″ ( so go mop up our SHIT )”.
But…you’re not, actually. You’re a city fire department fuels crew. Crew 7 in fact. What…a…fucking…mess…
Is this some kind of bizarre dream and I’m going to wake up any moment now???
“Hey! You’re never going to believe this fucked up wild-assed dream I had last night. Listen to THIS shit!”
Speaking of “The Movie”
Turns out the ‘fundraiser’ that just took place for the Granite Mountain Hotshots Tribute and Learning Center ( the people that just display all the “Station 7” memorabilia ) came up at least 15 seats short for their showing of “The Movie”
They had 90 tickets available ( because the Elks Theatre has limited seating )… and they only sold 75 tickets for the fundraiser.
If the Board ( which includes Jason Lohman, Amanda Lohman’s husband ) hadn’t decided to FORBID Joy and Fred from attending…that would have been 77 tickets sold.
Here’s a recent article about the June 19 ‘fundraiser’…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Fundraiser panel sheds light on the making of ‘Only the Brave’
https://web.archive.org/web/20190623005628/https://www.dcourier.com/news/2019/jun/21/fundraiser-panel-sheds-light-making-only-brave/
And…
There is actually a lesson learned that was recognized and acted upon following this tragedy…
Despite the fact that the city of Prescott through its fire department still owned real estate, equipment, vehicles etc, they apparently decided “fuck that” when faced with the decision of whether or not to continue with “hotshot” program. Lesson LEARNED and a small overlooked victory on the sanity front.
This reminds me of one of my favorite anger management therapy videos (warning – foul language)
https://youtu.be/92i5m3tV5XY
Gary, this meditation video should really help you. You’re welcome.
Oh man…I feel good just having watched it once! Thank you!
Run it on a loop. Trust me. It really works.
Gary said: ” you had me at foul language. “
Thanks…man. I’m going to go follow those links. And you are right, almost all of that entire movie was shot on my old district, the Tesuque, that then was absorbed by the Espanola.
That country is absolutely spectacular and I want to go back there since I haven’t seen it since 1992, or been out in it since 1988. The elk herds in that country are amazing and every herd numbers in the hundreds.
I think a lot of the scenes, like the running scene and cutting the practice line with the Watch Outs quiz was done down by Cochiti Lake, (35.6264970, -106.3152203) which I think is the lake you keep seeing in the background.
From Santa Fe, you drop down La Bajada Hill (The Descent) a couple of thousand feet so you have a vegetation type that is very similar to around Prescott and even kinda like Yarnell.
Of course all of the beautiful country is up by Redonda Peak (35.8719672, -106.5605895) near the the Valle Caldera that was called Valle Grande before it was purchased by a conservancy group with a land swap deal and renamed. when they turned it over to the National Park Service as a new National Preserve.
https://www.nps.gov/vall/index.htm
As the Valle Grande, it had been part of a private ranch and an old Spanish Land Grant called the Baca Land Grant from the Spanish Crown, like 400 years earlier.
I might have told this story before, but during my first week on the District, my boss, Orlando Romero took me all over that country in his USFS 4×4 truck. I have writtten before that all old time USFS FMO’s use their trucks like that to have driving meetings while they check out their districts because that is where they are most comfortable and in their “Happy Place.”
Anyway, as we were approaching Redondo Peak, Orlando told me he wanted to name his new crew the Redondo Hotshots because the Santa Fe Hotshots from several years earlier had been more like an organized criminal gang than a hotshot crew.
It had gotten so bad, that on their last fire, the crew boss had promisef them he was taking them on R&R to get them on the bus in fire camp and then they went to the line. And that was their last few moments as a crew because that didn’t end well.
Anyway…they had been disbanded after that and Orlando (who had the crew on his District back then, was still breaking into cold sweats and having nightmares just thinking about having another Santa Fe Hotshot Crew as was the Regional Office and everyone else who knew the old crew.
But you guys know me, I am you know…bad to the bone, so we had a good…no, a GREAT crew that developed a history and culture of pride and a work ethic that stayed stayed with them because after me, the next three Santa Fe Hotshot Crew bosses had been my squad bosses.
And after them, the following Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Bosses had been their squad bosses. I bet if you go to the Santa Fe Hotshot headquarters today, and tell them it’s Easter, they will immediately start looking for you know…Easter Eggs. And they won’t even know why because it’s in their DNA.
I actually hired two guys from the old crew because they looked like good hands to me, so I heard all of the old stories I wanted to hear. It was pretty bad.
Anyway, I was devastated because I wanted to be the Santa Fe (Holy Faith) Hotshot Crew Boss because that was such an historic name in our country.
So…I turned to Orlando and said, “If you let me name the crew the Santa Fe Hotshots, I promise you you will never be ashamed of our crew. Orlando thought about it for a minute and then agreed to my request just like he gave me everything else I ever ask him for because Orlando wanted a top notch hotshot crew more than just about anything else. Orlando and his wife, Lydia gave me a home on the Santa Fe as their adopted son and I will always be greatful to them for their kindness and support. That was the old USFS where we were more like a family.
The Santa Fe Hotshots are still a highly respected crew in operation to this very day from the Santa Fe and I’m quite sure they have no idea how close they came to being named the Redondo Hotshots. I mean…who the fuck could the Redondo Hotshots have ever become? Am I right?
I know RTS, I know. Technically after me, the first Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Boss was J.D Killick. But…he didn’t last very long and it didn’t end well for anyone.
So…after that, they went with my boys and they never regretted it or looked back.
I could write an entire chapter and in fact I have, about the pros and cons of promoting from within the crew as opposed to bringing in some new and theoretical highly qualified person from the outside.
My chapter is called. “The Needless Death of Brian Hughes.” And I bet you can guess which side of that argument I come down on?
Although wayyyyy more important than me being bad to the bone, I had my five man former Happy Jack Hotshot Posse with me from day one.
So it was those guys…who really shaped and established the new crews personality. I kinda just sat back in my nice office, because for the first time in my career I actually HAD an office, and you know…kept my focus on the big picture.
And of course, the overall culture in Santa Fe is generally based on, and heavily influenced by the dominant ethnic culture in the area, the Spanish people and that certainly includes the USFS.
And in the Spanish culture, family is more important than in the Anglo culture and so that feeling crept into the workplace much more than it did even in Arizona which does have a strong Mexican and Hispanic subculture, but nothing is like the Spanish culture in northern New Mexico.
And this happened mostly during the holidays (especially Christmas) during District parties and get to togethers for just about any occasion to celebrate something special that were much more common in Santa Fe down at the District level, but not so much at the Forest level.
I imagine that is all gone today and has been gone for a long time. No more USFS Familia.
And this is really getting down into the weeds pertaining to the creation of the Santa Fe Hotshots and my ultimate success.
Every new crew member that was hired had a coefficient value of one when they walked in the door. (If I am using the term coefficient correctly, and if I’m not, I will appreciate being corrected) whereas my posse of former Happy Hack Hotshots had a starting coefficient value of five.
Plus…that value was then increased exponentially because all new guys were just that FNG’s, whereas my posse were the squad bosses, Sawyer and equipment manager.
So..it’s pretty easy to see what followed and why. The Santa Fe Hotshots adopted the personality, work ethic, standards, and attitude of the former Happy Hack Hotshots as they coalesced around that core group.
So…in effect, the Santa Fe Hotshots became the Happy Jack Hotshots except the new Happy Jack Hotshot Crew had a very high percentage of Spanish guys and Pueblo Indians. Although Hopi Indians are Pueblo Indians and close relatives of the Rio Grande Pueblo Indians, but that is just confusing. No Hopi Indians went to New Mexico and in fact, by the time they disbanded the Happy Jack Hotshots, all of the Hopi Indians were gone from the crew even though they still made up most of the rest of the District Fire personnel including our AFMO.
Anyway…I just kinda went with the flow and got a big rep in all of the head sheds because I built a great Santa Fe Hotshot Crew. But the truth is…I didn’t build it…we built it. The Happy Jack Hotshots built the Santa Fe Hotshots from nothing.
So…you can kinda understand why I get pissed of when people talk smack about the Happy Jack Hotshots being disbanded because of the Battlement Creek Fire or for any other reasons other than an administrative luck of the draw.
And in the end…we were lucky. We went from being “A” hotshot crew on the Coconino, only one of four, to being “THE” hotshot crew on the Santa Fe.
And that my friends…was a very big deal in our world and on the Santa Fe National Forest. 🙂
And I should have written, “Anyway…I just kinda went with the flow and got a big rep in all of the head sheds because I built a great Santa Fe Hotshot Crew in a place everyone was afraid they were going to get just another organized criminal gang instead of a hotshot crew.
It’s better when everyone has very low expectations of you because it is much easier to impress them simply by turning out not to be a disaster.
And if you can actually be good at what you do, people then think you are great…just because you aren’t terrible.
Gary’s Secret Success to life and another quotable quote, 😎
Historical Footnote,
All of the Pueblo Indians I am referring to, including the Hopi, belong to the broader Tewa Culture.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewa
And yes, you are right, I took the easy way out and did a quick cut and paste that left out the most important words. But…that is why you are here however HAL 9000, your job is to mop up my shit and fix my mistakes. So…
Yes…it has been confirmed. That was in fact a very fast machine (type unknown) that was capable of operating in a stealth mode.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7p9YNPcOJ-4&list=PLgmdcJhFVPM7TV9TnzlJcpIyH5T6vEjkJ&index=12&t=0s
I know it’s all digitized and more than a little cheesy, but I still like it and at least no besr was harmed while filming this scene…so that’s a good thing, am I right?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UCwf5YjEuws
Thanks WTKTT-Your knack of making evidence easily understood by the masses rates expert plus. I can not imagine how the book authors, TV people, Movie Makers, and especially media have missed your input–very essential to the understanding of the terrible loss of life during the Yarnell wildfire of 2013.
Sometimes I wonder if the press is afraid of the truth when it has now been flashed in their eyes like a bright shining star. John Daugherty is indeed a hero for allowing these posts that reveal the actual events and the people with the wisdom and investigative abilities of the likes of WTKTT, Gary, RTS, Woodsman, Joy and others that have no fear of the truth and getting the events rightly reported at Yarnell.
As a simple citizen my understanding and knowledge of why the young men were killed at Yarnell would have never been understood had I not continued with Investigative Media and the many posts and incessant work at getting the facts right here on this site.
Many thanks to John–those events and seeing the demise of so many young fellows will always bring sad emotion upon our hearts –even now I feel the heart break.
Joy and I witnessed much of those events that day- forever to be embedded in our memories. Though I have done little in my capacity to help in understanding the ordeal and revealing the truth, Joy along with the others here have been giants in revealing the details of events that led up to the killing of the GMHS crew.. I hope at some point the general media takes notice of the people and facts they have so selflessly revealed. Many thanks for your efforts.
You left something out.
YOU unselfishly SAVED A LIFE that day.
No one is ever, ever going to forget that.
well- we alerted folks on the Weavers…and remember the lady with all the pets…Sonny did not just save A life but MANY…
Post for Joy: Joy says as copied from her email:
m line
REMEMBER the GMHS motto when the rest comes out…
that’s all.
Duane and Willis, it is time for you both to step up and start talking because the data is out in publication form but the IM world has been hanging on…as well as probably you both but your story and the photo of Alan Sinclair and where he was and etc…it is coming out…let us not forget your family member too…I will be addressing it all…
Start talking…otherwise me and my contributing folks will…
https://eidolon.pub/on-being-and-seeming-good-8f779ab34342
h t t p://www.inrebus.c o m /index.php?entry=entry080205-161446
I have no idea what Joy and others on this program have to reveal but it is likely to stun the wild land fire community and the public. I am not sure they can handle the truth but I can and the pulic and wild land fire fighting community must have this information–the public has paid dearly for it and the wild land fire fighting community and loved ones have paid in blood, seat and tears. It can not be denied to any of the offended parties.
19 were lost in the fire, 200+ more have been lost in Yarnell, but without the truth I fear we are all lost. I heard you Joy… I am here …thank you for your inspiration and giving me the courage.
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 21, 2019 at 6:14 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Well… I just had an exchange of information with Taylor Thompsom.
>> Which went about as you would expect it to since he thinks of
>> himself as the Perry Mason of wannabe wild land firefighters.
>>
>> I finally had to break down and tell him the truth. I never
>> hoped to win him or anyone else in the Lohman camp over,
>>
>> I just wanted to go into the middle of her safe zone and take
>> a big dump while making sure everyone knows I think she is one
>> CRAZY, PYCHO, LYING BITCH who is trying to re-write history, but
>> I’m not going to let that happen because current and future wild
>> land firefighters lives depend on it.
>>
>> I also managed to demonstrate to him and lots more of Lohman’s
>> enablers and keyboard knights that I’m not hiding anywhere. I’m
>> really easy to find, they have my address.
>>
>> But I’m not going to even engage with NEIL or anyone else if they
>> email me back. I proved my point and I feel better now…thank you.
>>
>> Actually, Taylor is a very sharp young man.
>>
>> I told him I hope he is either going to law school or is planning on it.
>>
>> I learned something very, very, very interesting from him though.
>>
>> He… ( and I can assume many other Lohman supporters ) isn’t a dummy.
>>
>> He knows she never received threats to snipe family members or any
>> of her other bullshit lies.
>>
>> He is just supporter of hers because of who she is.
>>
>> The grieving widow of a dead WLF.
>>
>> So… I guess on some level…I have to admire that attitude…maybe?
>>
>> Nawwwwww, that’s BULLSHIT,
>>
>> He’s a pretty sharp kid though!
>>
>> Oh… and one more thing.
>>
>> Taylor said he knows a lot of WLF who know me, but they all say I’m a bad guy.
>> But…I think we need to look at the positive here….they know who I am.
>> So… I have been gone for a long time, but apparently I haven’t been forgotten!
>> What more could any beaten down, washed up old guy with COPD ask for?
>> Some young guys remember me!
>>
>> I told you I am a legend in my own mind!
>>
>> This whole experience was definitely un Oddball like.
>> So… I obviously have a lot of work to do to achieve my
>> aspirational goal of becoming Oddball like.
>>
>> Here is Taylor’s actual quote,
>>
>> “Well, you’re just making yourself look like a bitch.
>> A lot of firefighters know you… but not for the reasons you
>> might think. The consensus is that you’re just batshit crazy.”
>>
>> Pretty good…right?
So let me see if I have this right.
Some guy who is all “give me some names and let me and my firefighter friends show them the REAL world” up-in-face because of some delusional post months ago on some hotshot widow’s social media ‘safeplace’ actually turns out to simply be some Facebook dweeb who is just patronizing same-said widow and KNOWS any talk about anyone shooting anyone with ‘snipers’ is complete bullshit… and in the process of doing all that now finds out that one of the members of this ‘group’ that same-said widow keeps whining about is actually this famous living Hotshot that he’s heard of many times and knows isn’t called the JACKHAMMER for nothing?
Okay… well… glad that’s all straightened out.
Onward and upward.
Yep…you got that pretty much straight. I have been having a hard time coping with all of this new information that has been coming to light man because of the work Joy and the Woodsman (and maybe Fred too) has been doing, so I just took a beak for some de-stressing by going to look for a fight with the “Prescott Delusional Club Of Amanda Enablers” and I feel more relaxed now. So…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XKVmpJaMffM
But yeah,..they are really a fucked up group of people on the whole. I’m still engaged with Taylor though, here is his latest quote and you will really be able to see the scope of the problem.
“I do exist though 😂 right here. Just leave Amanda and her family alone man. Theres no reason for you or anyone else to come at her like that. If you want to change the way things are done to save lives… you’re going about it the wrong way. Seems like you might have a little bit of jealousy because a movie wasnt made about you or your life as a firefighter? Just a thought. You and I both know that the only thing that killed those boys was the weather. Theres nobody to point fingers at.”
Gary,
Thank you for following through on all this on FB with these “followers,” the majority of which have absolutely NO clue of what they’re reading and certainly no clue of what they’re talking about.
Like this Taylor guy and his comment that “You and I both know that the only thing that killed those boys was the weather. Theres nobody to point fingers at.”
Are you f**king kidding me? It was only the weather killed them?
And there’s nobody to point fingers at?
How about those GMHS supervisors that were responsible for the safety and welfare of their men, the ones that trusted them to do the right thing by adhering to those battle-tested WF Rules (10 & 18 & LCES)
And of course, you being jealous because they made no movie about you.
Keep up the good work
Yes…that was the point, even someone who is really a pretty sharp young man is still pushing the theory that the only thing that killed the crew was the weather. Here is my response to him.
I think you are missing the point of why I entered Amanda’s social club of enablers in the first place. I was leaving her alone until somebody emailed me the link to a whole bunch of comments that a whole bunch of people had made about me and my friends, namely Joy and Fred. Now…just go back and read those comments from my position and I think you will be able to understand what my original issue was. Now…I know somebody, probably her new husband advised her to not actually name names, and most of the hints were intended to point at Joy and Fred, but mostly Joy. Amanda really has it in for Joy for some reason. I think you also can understand that the fever pitch from some of her supporters was growing more strident with each passing day. And sometimes if unstable or fanatical supporters are pushed hard enough, they will engage in direct action and I don’t want to see Joy get hurt. I would much rather anyone who would go after Joy to physically harm her (or Fred) would come after me instead. Mostly because I crave conflict, action, stress, and danger. And those things have been hard to find in retirement so sometimes I have to go looking for them to get shots of adrenaline to feed the monkey. I’m just being honest with you. I will never go after someone first because I am a good guy who devoted my life to doing the right thing. But I love it when bad people come at me because I might have the opportunity to defend myself. On a side note, I also didn’t like the barrage of insults in addition to the threats that were being engineered, encouraged and created with Amanda’s encouragement and egging on while she did her best to whip up her crowd of support into a frenzy until I entered everyone’s safe place and said, “You talkin’ about me? You must be talkin’ about me because I don’t see anyone else here!” That put everyone on notice there was a price to pay for their crowd whipping into a mob frenzy. I also read a lot of comments from people who wrote, “why would anyone do that?” And the truth is, no did do that. Amanda was making lies up to in order to whip her crowd of enablers into a frenzy, maybe with a dangerous element if someone decided to take it a step further to direct action. Which takes us back to me. If someone wants to engage in direct action, they now have my address because I don’t want them to go looking for Joy or Fred. I am bad to the bone. I went looking for drug smugglers to fight in Spec Ops just because I was bored in when I certainly didn’t have to go. Being a hotshot ruined me for life. It made me into a righteous danger junkie and then they took away my drug leaving me feeling like any drug addict who has been deprived of their drug of choice. Do you believe anyone threatened to take a sniper rifle to the Park dedication ceremony and SHOOT the GMIHC family members? Can’t you understand just how crazy, threatening and very very, very dangerous that lie is? How can YOU support Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman knowing that she did that? As far as a movie being made about me? One was with me as the star…it plays over and over again inside my head every day while I relive my career to generate faux adrenaline to feed the monkey on my back. I wish you could see what I see. I think if you did, you would support me in recognition for all of the things I did for you and everyone else. It was one hell of a ride and I got to see the elephant, but it came at a terrible price. Which takes us back to my original point. I don’t recommend anyone going down the path I did. It really wasn’t worth it….kid. 😎
I don’t know why it copied all in caps…because I wasn’t YELLING!
Whoops, when I pasted it this time, it didn’t come out all in caps. I think I need to go back to bed. All of this new information is really complicating my already overly complicated book plot. I might be really fucked now!
Maybe everyone should just STOP finding out new information…man!
And FYI…I specify “righteous danger” because you know…I not a fucking idiot to take up BASE jumping even if I could get a big enough chute.
No…the danger with the corresponding adrenaline shot has to be for a higher purpose that is bigger than me, bigger than any one person or thing. It’s very complicated and like everything else here on this thread…heavily nuanced.
Other WLF, especially hotshots understand.
Mr. Taylor,
Lead, follow or get out of the way. There is no jealously here. I would be embarrassed if a movie like that was made about my crew. I refuse to watch it because i don’t believe in the act of making money on the backs of those who died in service, even under the veneer of honoring and providing comfort to survivors based on hero worship.
What many of us are trying to accomplish here is finding out the truth and the whole truth of the circumstances which led to the death of almost the entire Crew 7 of Prescott Fire Department, an unprecedented tragedy in wildfire fatalities. Nobody is going after anyone from this side of the equation. I suggest you look closely at those on your side if you want to see those going after people.
The truth and the whole truth is our goal. While we consider the sensitivity of the matter and its effects on the loved ones, many of us here believe that only the whole truth being told can truly honor those who gave their lives in service AND by being known, will increase the likelihood of no one suffering a similar fate in the future. Some people, such as yourself, believe that we should let it go. I believe that if we did that it would mean that each of the 19 lives were lost for nothing. I’m not going to give up on those men or my desire for honesty, accountability and the whole truth being known for maximum lessons learned and future accident prevention.
You do realize that Superintendent Brian Frisby of the Blue Ridge hotshots was there, one of the few that risked his life locating crew 7, and is practically begging for changes to the staff ride due to human factors that day being “off the charts?” Frisby is competent. I know because I’ve met him in our work environment.
Unfortunately real healing, and coping with the aftermath, has been stunted by the absence of full disclosure. The families and all firefighters deserve the truth. I want everyone to get the help they need and to be at peace as much as possible. My opinion is that peace will come from truth and full disclosure. The withholding of truth has come with unnecessary harm to all of us in order to protect a few. This is not right. This is wrong.
And to those that will be exposed in the coming months: I pray you get the help you need and accept the consequences that come with your actions or inactions. I believe in time this will be the only way for you to have peace yourselves. Please do not harm yourselves as this will only continue the tragedy which should have been dealt with years ago. You all deserve a better life than the burden of concealed truth.
Lead, follow or get out of the way.
And just FYI, his last name isn’t Taylor, that’s his first name. His name is Taylor Thompson and he lives out in Prescott Valley. I paid a few dollars and had a background check run on him (old habit).
https://m.facebook.com/Taylor.G.Thompson?fref=nf&rc=p
If you go to here,
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/photos/a.748269025266283/2169813189778519/?type=3&theater
and then scroll down acways, you will find his original comments where he suggested “we” be outed because he has some firefighters friends who would like to take care of business. Which means…you know…kill or epseverly best Joy and Fred.
I hope the fuck they come looking for me first because I am am a SHEEPDOG!
https://rogueriverinn.com/
Room number 5.
Whoops…
Which mean, you know…kill or SEVERELY BEAT Joy and Fred.
Oh…and one more thing. If you scroll down the page past Taylor’s post, you will find tye one from Maclean’s crack, impartial, professional research specialist Holly NEIL.
The very same done NOTHING, knows NOTHING NEIL who imagineered the bogus P-Line and Stob Theory while hearing imaginary voices in radio transmissions,
https://m.facebook.com/hendersonneill?fref=nf&rc=p
NEIL is a real fuckin’ sweetheart!
Yep.
During all the lying and the trash-talking on that particular social media thread… author John Maclean’s “research assistant” jumped in and was just CHEERLEADING the trash-talk with this PUBLIC comment…
—————————————————————
Holly Henderson Neill
Only The Brave can deal with disgusting trolls!
Keep on smiling Eric, we’ve got your back.
—————————————————————-
If author John Maclean still wants his book about the Yarnell Hill Fire to even have the remotest chance of being considered an ‘objective’ and/or ‘unbiased’ look at the Yarnell Hill Fire and the Granite Mountain tragedy… he should think about ‘distancing’ himself from this Holly Neill person ASAP.
Yep,,,you got that right. I think Holly NEIL is one seriously fucked up, pycho and crazy bitch who is such an enabler, she is just as dangerous as Mrs. Lohman.
Not to mention, she doesn’t know SHIT FROM SHINOLA when it comes to WLF, because she has never done a fucking thing or held any position of any significance in her entire WLF “Career?”
I’m sure you have noticed they never list any of the jobs she actually held and for how long, much less list her actual fire experience. They just always kind of GLOSS over it with some very generalized and grandiose statements.
Of course they backed off that somewhat after we here on this thread (Okay, mostly me) started making fun of her experience because they kept calling her a “RETIRED” WLF with the NPS after just 11 years.
And everyone knows. that when it comes to FIRE powerhouses, the NPS never makes the roster. They just don’t have the land base or land mass to generate much fire activity.
I mean…they do have Yellowstone (and I was part of fighting the big Yellowstone Fires of 1988) Sequoia Kings Canyon, the Redwoods, Whiskey Town, but it’s very small, the Santa Monica Mountains, Yosemite, and for some reason, they have burned off Bandolier and everything around it including the City of Los Alamos…TWICE, and let’s see…I think that’s about it because the Olympic National Park is big enough to burn, but you know…it’s a rain forest, and so is the Grand Cayon, but you know…it’s the GRAND CANYON.
Anyway…NEIL doesn’t know, nor has she done ANYTHING of any WLF importance or significance in her entire fuckin’ life.
And just in case anyone thinks I am being a little harsh regarding Holly NEIL, let me break it down for you and then tell me what you think?
1. Amanda Lohman has accused the people on her enemies list of wanting to, planning to, or actually doing, I don’t how far her deranged mind actually got, of using sniper rifles to murder GMIHC family members at the dedication ceremony for the new park.
2. I don’t know everyone who is on Amanda Lohman’s Crazy Town enemies list, but I think it’s everyone who participates on the IM blog and I know it includes me.
3. Holly NEIL has given carte blanche support for Amanda Lohman by her comment on her Eric Marsh Foundation blog.
Therefore, using basic deductive reasoning,
1. Lohman accused her enemies of planning on and wanting to muder GMIHC family members.
2. Lohman believes I am her enemy and I am on her enemies list.
3. Therefore, Lohman has accused me of planning on and/or wanting to murder GMIHC family members.
4. NEIL is in agreement with and supports everything Lohman has said and especially those things she has published on her Eric Marsh blog which includes her accusations about me wanting to or planning to murder GMIHC family members.
5. Therefore, NEIL has accused me of wanting to and or planning on murdering GMIHS family members using a sniper rifle at the ceremony dedicating the new park.
What part of that do I have wrong? And there is nothing I can say or write about NEIL that will even come close to her accusing me of wanting and or planning on murdering GMIHC family members.
But, as time goes by…I am going to do what I can to set the record straight and hold NEIL accountable in the public forum for her CRAZY, PYCHO AND BITCH ACCUSATIONS AGAINST ME, while I try to make sure everyone knows what kind of person she is.
Oh…and one more thing. Was NEIL smart enough to think all of that through?
Probably not, but how stupid NEIL is isn’t my problem…it’s hers. And now…it’s also Maclean’s.
Reply to Woodsman post on June 22, 2019 at 10:32 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Mr. Taylor,
>>
>> Lead, follow or get out of the way.
>>
>> ( Snip. See entire comment above ).
Incredibly well said.
Could NOT have said it better myself.
If this ongoing discussion ever needed an ‘About’ page… that would be it.
WTKTT,
I don’t know what to say. Thank you
No… thank YOU.
When the children of those men who were lost in Yarnell all grow up and discover that THIS conversation has ALWAYS been going on and was ALWAYS trying to discover exactly WHY they had to grow up without their father(s)…
…I hope they come across your post above FIRST.
Woodsman,
Well said.
“I suggest you look closely at those on your side if you want to see those going after people.”
And here we go from the EMF right from the hypocritical EM herself:
“Online bullying and threats are not ok. You have to know that words matter. Watch what you say, what you write. I am absolutely a victim of online bullying. I am strong enough to handle it but I should not have to.
Don’t use your computer to spread pain. Use your light to spread love.”
Thank you
Thank you, RTS. I actually believe the unintended consequences of the latest crap, replete with veiled threats from the agenda-driven apologists, is serving to unite us here in the quest to honor crew7’s memory the best way we can: with the truth. I feel it.
I am aware that RTS has been the victim of on-line bullying. I have know RTS for a really long time. And I have never known a man to have more integrity, honor, and a greater desire to do the right things for the right reasons with an old fashioned, Eagle Scout, and religious component to his motivations than RTS does.
I don’t agree with everything RTS says, does or thinks because we are quite different as people go, which I think is unusual because we have very similar backgrounds and interests.
But…I do unequivocally support RTS as a good person who will always do the right thing just as I will and of that, you can rest assured.
RTs has written, “Online bullying and threats are not ok. You have to know that words matter. Watch what you say, what you write. I am absolutely a victim of online bullying. I am strong enough to handle it but I should not have to”
And I agree that he is strong enough to handle it, but I don’t think he should have to either because it’s WRONG!
Gary,
Clarification needed here
And here we go from the EMF right from the hypocritical AM herself:
“Online bullying and threats are not ok. You have to know that words matter. Watch what you say, what you write. I am absolutely a victim of online bullying. I am strong enough to handle it but I should not have to.
Don’t use your computer to spread pain. Use your light to spread love.”
This is what she wrote not me
Woodsman,
This is attempt #5 to post this, so going to the top.
Please tell us how you really feel about the feckless FoF. Here’s a link that shows the “investigations” and “reviews” that he participated in. When you read them you’ll quickly realize WHY they continue to utilize him in their alleged “Investigations” and “reviews” because he is a Party Liner all the way.
( https://www.firelinefactors.com/resources#investigations )
Please spend the time to think about what you read below and how they are attempting to pervert our language and the way we think and rationalize things.
The Saddleback Learning Review was interesting revelation about their thought processes. I will admit that I do like their quote from Boorstin:
“ The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance! It is the illusion of knowledge. ” Daniel J. Boorstin
On page 3 is “The Purpose for the Learning Review” with a subtitle: “If we don’t find fault, what can we do?” Fair enough …
Now comes the real spin and obfuscation
“The aim of this Learning Review is to understand the rationale for the actions/decisions involved in the incident and then, if possible, to learn from them. Achieving this goal requires a deliberate effort to place decisions and actions in the detailed context in which they occurred, including an undertaking of the pressures faced by all those involved in the incident.
“There were a variety of actions/decisions [Footnote 9] during the Saddleback Incident (P. 14) which are likely present in many organizations, or work environments. p. 14
“[FN 9] There were occasions in the Review where the difference between actions and decisions could not be separated, thus the term action/decision could not be separated, as it could have been either one or a combination of both” p.14
Are you f**king kidding me? “There were occasions in the Review where the difference between actions and decisions could not be separated, thus the term action/decision could not be separated, as it could have been either one or a combination of both”
WTF is up with that? Taking two separate and distinct words with separate and distinct meanings and we can make them mean the same thing?
This is better known as Orwellian Doublespeak and the worst of it is the Doublethink that is taking place which entails grasping on to two opposing thoughts as being true at the same time.
“This action/decision “word” is addressed again twice on page 15 regarding engaging the fire and building fireline.”
Actions is mentioned once more – alone – on page 16. “Cultural emphasis on efficiency include concerns about how actions are perceived by others, …”
In the “Sensemaking Discussion” on page 20, “we know that the actions taken by this crew do not seem out of the ordianry. Several [FFs} interviewed post-incident felt like these actions were routine and that they would have done the same thing. ”
“The language of firefighting appears to support routine action (and vice versa).” pp. 20-21 Not sure what they’re referring to here.
On page 28 we have the “Proposed Study of the Saddleback Incident Within an Incident.”
“Yet the medical evacuation presents further decisions and actions , from many levels of the organization, which may result in many operational learning opportunities.”
“Doctrine incorporates principles that form the foundation of human judgement decisions , action[s] , and behavior. …” Tom Harbour, Director, Fire and Aviation Management, USFS p. 32 I took the liberty of adding an “s” in the word “actions” because of the plural “decisions.”
I hope you spent the time to think about what you read here and how they are attempting to pervert our language and the way we think and rationalize things in all these reports with this kind word and meaning manipulation.
CORRECTION
“[FN 9] There were occasions in the Review where the difference between actions and decisions could not be separated, thus the term action/decision could not be separated, as it could have been either one or a combination of both” p.14
This footnote #9 should read accordingly with only one “could not be separated”: ““[FN 9] There were occasions in the Review where the difference between actions and decisions could not be separated, thus the term action/decision as it could have been either one or a combination of both” p.14
This is how a cut and paste of the passage appears below, so I hopefully get a pass on my editing:
There!were!occasions!in!the!Review!where!the!difference!between!actions!and!decisions!could!not!be!separated,!thus!the!term!action/decision!was!used,!as!it!could!have!been!either!one,!or!a!combination!of!both.!
RTS,
Yes. Thank you. I’m studying your post but I believe it’s more obfuscation by design. Some of these cats actually believe they’re doing good work while really serving as useful pawns. It’s a damn shame.
Concrete evidence of the brainwashing is the extremely disrespectful response you received at that conference (by someone who was not being addressed at the time) following your salient and relevant point in which you stated:
“One of the missing data points is THE TRUTH in all of these accident/fatality investigations.” The absence of conscience is truly mind boggling.
Talk about going against the grain. Good job standing up for what’s right.
Woodsman,
Thanks My Friend. And if you listen carefully, you should hear self-proclaimed YH Fire “Lead Investigator Brad Mayhew respond “Bull Shit Fred” if they left it in the video.
And he opted out of his presentation being recorded which is his prerogative
That’s the exact response I was talking about. Came through loud & clear. It was the catalyst to my rant last night…that I apologized for and put myself in timeout…which Joy told me not to…so I gave myself the benefit of the doubt and let myself out.
And I thought that brad mayhew was the lead HUMAN FACTORS contributing investigator to the Yarnell Hill fire SAIT?
I wonder if he’s thought about Frisbys letter claiming “The human factors that day were off the charts?” Frisby seems to be practically begging to overhaul the staff rides to increase the odds of true lessons learned.
I would also like to say that if it’s true that GMIHC did not follow the written procedures to gain status as a type1 hotshot crew then this is a really big deal. In the business we call this “pencil whipping.” Unfortunately it happens with individual firefighter qualifications but if this is the case, that an entire city fire department sponsored handcrew was “pencil whipped” into a bona fide type1 hotshot crew, oh boy, that’s bad. Really, really BAD. These are the kinds of things that get people dead. The rules are in place for a reason.
And I would like to add my two cents worth. One of the significant contributing factors in the destruction of the crew, was their flagrant disregard for tye rules. As an organization, there was a general concensus that tye ruies just didn’t apply to them.
And the truth is, they were right, the normal rules governing how hotshot crews operate didn’t apply to them. I believe this was a part of their crew DNA, they carried to the very end.
And on a side note, I was officially on two different hotshot crews for ten years. But…I was actually on 10 different hotshot crews because each crew develops a unique personality depending on almost countless variables that certainly change significantly from year to year, even if the personnel stays largely tye same. At least that was my experience.
Woodsman,
Exactly, obfuscation by design and attempting to shift the way we think about these wildland fire fatalities.
Words mean things.
“To respect words and their conveyance of reality is to show respect to the very foundation of reality. To manipulate words is to seek to manipulate truth and to instead choose falsity and illusion over reality. The manipulation of words is itself a violent act. …”
Cummins, M.: Words: Pieper’s “Abuse of Language, Abuse of Power”. The Alternative Path (2011)
( https://thealternatepath.org/2011/05/25/words-piepers-abuse-of-language-abuse-of-power/ )
This ongoing, unsettling truth manipulation has occurred with all wildfire SAIT Reports, Reviews, and the like where WFF were killed by fire at least since the 1949 Mann Gulch Fire.
BULLSHIT, FRED! I kid. I kid.
Yep. Totally agree.
I hope they don’t let that guy that wrote all that crap on a fire. If he doesn’t know how to say anything in plain language so you know he is walking around confused of mind.
Certain people are good at talking or writing and saying nothing. Politicians are expert at that–befuddle the public with elocution–that guy is only fooling himself and a few dummies that are as confounded as he is.
That is a good point Woodsman –and it is amazing that someone would pay his salary to put out such gibberish–and even a wonder that these people think everyone is fooled by their BS.
**
** THE PFINGSTON / HARWOOD POCASTS ( CONTINUED )
**
** GM FAMILY MEMBERS WERE THREATENED BY PRESCOTT FIREFIGHTERS
Still ‘unpacking’ things contained in the PODCASTS recently published
by GM Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft’s mother, Deborah
Pfingston, and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood.
In PODCAST Episode 6, Deborah Pfingston reveals that she and other
GM family members have, in fact, been ‘threatened’ ( on multiple
occasions ) by Prescott-area FIREFIGHTERS.
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What Happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
By: Deborah Pfongston and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood.
PODCAST Episode 6: Hiking the Path
Published: April 8, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-6-Hiking-the-Path-e3m5su
In Episode 6, Part 4…
———————————————————————————————————–
Deborah Pfingston: Oh… the stories are just… you know… we’ll talk about it and people will say “You gotta be kidding me” and I’m like “No. no.” And, you know, something again that just came to mind… you know… when I’m talking about that is how, at one point, I had firefighters walk up to me and say “You need to stop”. “YOU need to stop.” “You’re crazy. The guys were heroes and you’re gonna tarnish them.” It’s like… no I’m not.
Doug Harwood: Right.
Deborah Pfingston: I had one firefighter go to Juliann, Andrew’s widow, my beautiful daughter-in-law, and say “Your mother-in-law’s insane, and you should tell her to be quiet.”
…
…
Doug Harwood: Well… I’ve never… I’ve never had anything said to me, but… uh… I’ve heard it from other people.
Deborah Pfingston: Yeah. That’s how we first lost our very first liason that was… was assigned to our family is her husband was a firefighter and he was told “You get them in line. You tell them to shut up. You tell them to quit the investigation.”… and she was SCARED to be with us anymore.
——————————————————————————————————
Garyyyyyyy….Good morning,sir-
I have been having renal concerns and I had planned to sleep in but I kept hearing my cell go off and I usually have it on mute or off but last night I was visiting with Gary P. and right after a person out of Canada we talked about the importance of his views… That was a much needed moment to my life.
I elevate and rest and try to rid of these odd pockets of fluid that began in the renal flank area but has spread all over.
This fire has been difficult for all who never met the Firefighters or us and in hearing their accounts I encourage their participation here – for the human factors perspective
Speaking of human factors-
Mr. Willis and Mr. Steinbrink-
Have you been pure to John MacLean and Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair for their made for profit book?
it will not matter what rabbit they pull out of a hat when it comes to Billing/Finances and my public records requests over time – I have the actual firefighters accounts and Andrews was the only person ever even came to make some sort of evaluation of the GMHS – there was not any hotshot Supts that stayed 14 days to evaluate the GMHS and that was why Willis only named Andrews but his lie was he sad he could not recall the other 2 names…that was because there was no other 2.
What really happened was Crews that worked with them on the same division wrote up some shit but that was all- Andrews was the final so to speak solo “evaluator” – That is why Willis in his interview could not remember who they were – it never happened. They never even had Supts even come to their station to check it out – they never watched them – never watched them cut practice line or ANYTHING.
Andrews went to Oregon and was the FMO for Prescott at that time. Willis grabbing credit as he has for the name and actions for Granite Mountatin Hotshots than should be accountable for the truth to be told all the way – There was no record I will see because there was none so if I get one now- this will be classic – we will see.
Now for Gary- like I told John Truett – I could throw many under the bus with all the data I got but I am not in this for that but you are right the now named Social Media pieces as you named us to there= Lawyers state she was just right under the radar because she did not name us but now that you did and if any of her followers who said very serious ill actions or her carry it on and she engages then we have a case.
I am shocked to wake up to messages saying GO READ WHAT GARY WROTE ABOUT YOU – I did and in that Gary – yes, there is some very inappropriate behaviors and distasteful concerns and I have always been praying for Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman since the time she greeted me at the 2018 Arizona Wildfire Academy warmly saying Hi I’m Amanda and I replied Hi, I am Joy Collura and the way she shifted and moved and puffed up and heated up her tone and said InvestigativeMEDIA Joy and I replied Yes and she said I got rid of Fred and you are not welcome here and I replied IM is a tool for many of us to go to and discuss and hash out and yes it has its layers of harshness yet it is just a tool to get to the truth She was getting in body language looking to create a crowd in her body language and voice tone so I just went to class but I have tried for years to speak with her because it is being glazed all through the Fire Industry she keeps telling people she has a restraining order against me and that is false. In 2014 I was being bullied by certain areas locally and county and even in December 2014 a Sgt called me apologizing for her part in it and spoke of the sensitivities of the situation and a few weeks later my surveillance cameras had a nice man- our local deputy – having to serve me a Injunction for Harrasment and to get me to not attend public meetings and not be on the Weaver Mountains and to stay away from the meeting that especially was tied to Karen Fann and as well stay away from Amanda Beno Marsh and in that court case you removed off your blog Gary…I never thought I JOY A COLLURA would ever be sitting in a court room ever but there I was and in seizure phase too and I only pulled Dr Ted Putnam to the stand because I saw the favoritism and body languages and heard fabrications and I felt a seizure come on and I needed a distraction because if this town is viewing me such way and if I have a seizure then I go to this town’s hospital – no thanks so yeah Dr Ted Putnam was never a planned event but when Willis got on the stand and stated third party data I showed the emails where Jerry Pfingston stated he most look forward to a certain hike. This whole thing of them distracting the world – I have always said who I am…where I live and stand and NEVER been anonymous….Firmly and fairly stood up with my full name. My teachers growing up and Pastors growing up taught me a lot about hope and they helped build and mold and mentor me and one thing I always had was one good left swing and integrity. My father worked for Sheriff Joe and in that phase I learned what corruption was and how it can come about and it begins with hiding truths and I left my father in my teens time to time to teach him lessons on integrity all the while he kept living the lie. When the officers would call me as a teen an ask me to cover – I hung up on them – I will not be a part in anyone’s cover ups. Every person who has entered my path even if it was for a text message for a moment to help me feel I am human- There was a Soap Opera Star I use to hang out with a lot and she seem to have a lot of boyfriends and she was using my name on social media pretending I was her as she wrote people and she asked me to do something for her – I did this project (unknowingly) – and that was an isolated time timed to back East…and they know who they are and that was what it was…but even that isolated moment taught me to grow not shut down and I am blessed to have had the people God has shown me from the highest level of society to the homeless man Leo in Aguila…who I still visit and hug as ripe smelling as he does smell…Yet Willis, it is time to come forward and speak up. The legal system can only help so far with the soul but it also takes Duane talking too and his family…This is not all on Willis…It is time.
You boys, You need to understand when you all had to have someone shadow ERIC SHANE MARSH the first few years because of his lack of leadership experience and knowledge and his edge for doing certain areas- it is not a disservice to him but honoring him so not one more person has to face what he did or other loved ones…
The time is now.
You have to understand what is happening is happening…I already told all of you I was never doing a book or movie even though I was offered that – this is about giving the loved ones the facts – not a story.
I am here and on my blog with the names of people that were or are in my life…go fact check on me.
Mr. Feller knows I came from tough upbringing but I was a real good kid. My pastors know I came from tough area and yet they filled my souls with their love and mentoring and showed me God is good all the time…
Now I will not tell you Gary how to FEEL about Amanda but for me with all the texts I have on her and others – I feel she has manipulated and orchestrated and controlled her atmosphere the best she could and yet I always felt I did not have a husband perish so I allowed that emotion – it did not get legal until she said the Sniper comments and the awful stuff that really were FALSE…then I felt she was mentally unhealthy and not relying on the Lord and Spiritual Warfare was in her life…I always will be here no matter what to uplift her not react but I will forward you Gary what just happened this week…I was gonna ask for it to be private but I from this point forward if I speak here or behind the scenes – no more IN PRIVATE not even to wtktt- from this day forward every moment I am working to get the data out…also please do not call me anyone…it is obvious by recent conversations someone at this point is wiretapping my calls. Too many symptoms. Too many.
Also this ridiculous moment where Neill and others put Dugger Hughes letter (Horseshoe2 Fire) out there saying LOOK Hughes complimented the GMHS – that was general letter that goes out – those are standard boilerplate that all the teams and all the regions and resources no matter how good or bad their performances – just a feel good thing…
Stop redirecting…stop the distractions…stop saying staff rides are for lessons learned but all the while will not adapt the facts in them…STOP IT!
The whole fluid thing…TMI! The rest…I didn’t like what I read about me. Finish The Fight! How do you think I earned the resume I have! I never backed down from any man or fire! And I’m not going to start now. You can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs, you…you are an egg. You can either be proactive or collateral damage…your choice. I choose to be proactive. Remember what my ole jumoer buddy always heard about me, “I was the wrong guy to fuck with.” You can run, but you can’t hide. Everybody knows who that CRAZY LYIN’ BITCH LOHMAN IS TALKING ABOUT AND SHE HAD BETTER QUIT TALKING ABOUT ME! Go check your fuckin phone now and see what it says.
Oh…and one more thing. As usual I only read about 10% of what you wrote because most of it didn’t make any sense and I couldn’t follow it. So…if I missed something important, please try to summarize without the riddles.
And if you don’t want to be involved, go back to your desert walking where you belong. This is my world.
Oh…and one more thing, if that CRAZY PYCHO BITCH’S (Amanda Lohman) friends and supporters want to meet the “other” Gary, just keep threatening me. Most people don’t like meeting the other Gary.
I don’t even know what this means, “Have you been pure to John MacLean and Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair for their made for profit book?”
If it means FUCK John MacLean and Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair, then yes…I have been pure to them?
Oh…and I have been warned to be careful and not piss off Mr. Amanda Lohman, because he is former law enforcement. FUCK THAT LITTLE MANGINA MAN, I KNOW WHO HE IS…HE IS A LITTLE MANGINA MAN!
He has my home address, I don’t have his, I will be here all week. Anybody who comes to see me though, had better bring their fuckin’ A Game.
I didn’t like any of the shit I read last night that has been provoked by that PYCHO CRAZY LYIN’ BITCH AMANDA LOHMAN and I like it way less this morning after sleeping on it.
Or…I will be back in the Southwest soon enough if anyone doesn’t want to drive all tye way to Oregon.
Joy,
I Yam What I Yam & Dats All What I Yam!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LzHmunZxJeM
😎, Now..shut the fuck up!
Although I have been trying to work on my “People Skills.”
So, shut the fuck up…please.
Oh…and one more thing. I have been warned to be careful about Mr. Amanda Lohman’s FAMILY!
Okay…I give up. Who the fuck is that little mangina man’s family? Are they the Fuckin’ Mangina Family whose Mangina Son married that CRAZY PYCHO LYING BITCH, the former Mrs. Amanda Beno Marsh?
The CRAZY PYCHO LYING BITCH was was married to the terminal fuck up Eric Marsh, who killed his crew because he was CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT. THAT FUCKING TERMINAL LOSER AND FUCK UP?
Do I have that about right?
Does that littie Mangina Man’s family know who I am?
I want to make the only issue that concerns me perfectly clear.
The Granite Mountain Hotshots we’re coughing up chunks of their charred lungs so hard while they were being burned to death that they dislocated their tongues from the back of their mouths. And when they were found, their blackened, charred and swollen tongues were hanging out of their mouths.
Any questions? Good.
Well…I just had an exchange of information with Taylor Thompsom. Which went about as you would expect it to since he thinks of himself as the Perry Mason of wannabe wild land firefighters.
I finally had to break down and tell him the truth. I never hoped to win him or anyone else in the Lohman camp over,
I just wanted to go into the middle of her safe zone and take a big dump while making sure everyone knows I think she is one CRAZY, PYCHO, LYING BITCH who is trying to re-write history, but I’m not going to let that happen because current and future wild land firefighters lives depend on it.
I also managed to demonstrate to him and lots more of Lohman’s enablers and keyboard knights that I’m not hiding anywhere. I’m really easy to find, they have my address.
But I’m not going to even engage with NEIL or anyone else if they email me back. I proved my point and I feel better now…thank you.
Actually, Taylor is a very sharp young man. I told him I hope he is either going to law school or is planning on it.
I learned something very, very, very interesting from him though. He…(and I can assume many other Lohman supporters) isn’t a dummy. He knows she never received threats to snipe family members or any of her other bullshit lies.
He is just supporter her because if who she is. The grieving widow of a dead WLF.
So…I guess on some level…I have to admire that attitude…maybe? Nawwwwww, that’s BULLSHIT,
He’s a pretty sharp kid though!
Oh…and one more thing. Taylor said he knows a lot of WLF who know me, but they all say I’m a bad guy.
But…I think we need to look at the positive here….they know who I am.
So…I have been gone for a long time, but apparently I haven’t been forgotten!
What more could any beaten down, washed up old guy with COPD ask for? Some young guys remember me!
I told you I am a legend in my own mind!
This whooe experience was definitely un Oddball like. So…I obviously have a lot of work to do to achieve my aspirational goal of becoming Oddball like.
Here is Taylor’s actual quote,
“Well, you’re just making yourself look like a bitch. A lot of firefighters know you… but not for the reasons you might think. The consensus is that you’re just batshit crazy.”
Pretty good…right?
Oh…and one more thing. I did tell Taylr that if you want to hurt an old guy’s feelings, next time tell him, “I know a bunch of firefighters, but nobody has ever heard of you. It’s like you never even existed and you certainly don’t matter now.”
Now that…is how you hurt an old guy’s feelings.
Gary said:
off Mr. Amanda Lohman, because he is former law enforcement
——-
My reply: not too long ago he was on the roster for thr Yarnell fire dept but Jason changed a tire for a Yarnell resident’s parents who lost their home and he was a Jerome FF…
Then I met a FF from Yuma that knows Erik…Jasons brother…God truly is leading this path
Check your email Gar
yep you skimmed because the part on holly was not to you it read:
Mr. Willis and Mr. Steinbrink-
Have you been pure to John MacLean and Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair for their made for profit book?
Yeah…somebody emailed me and told me I was asleep at the switch and you were on to some really important info there. You go girl!
I can vouch for people definitely thinking that they might want to meet “The Other Gary” but it would not be the smartest thing they’ve ever done in their lives.
“They” are not going to do Jack shit.
Gary, I can translate an important part of Joys post: the crew possibly was not exactly transitioned from type2 to type1 “by the book.” Sort of like:
“I have the actual firefighters accounts and Andrews was the only person ever even came to make some sort of evaluation of the GMHS – there was not any hotshot Supts that stayed 14 days to evaluate the GMHS and that was why Willis only named Andrews but his lie was he sad he could not recall the other 2 names…that was because there was no other 2.
What really happened was Crews that worked with them on the same division wrote up some shit but that was all- Andrews was the final so to speak solo “evaluator” – That is why Willis in his interview could not remember who they were – it never happened. They never even had Supts even come to their station to check it out – they never watched them – never watched them cut practice line or ANYTHING.”
Apparently they didn’t follow the proper required procedures to even become a hotshot crew?
Thank you for working on this angle. I could tell you were working on something because of your cryptic posts. I am looking forward to learning more. Fred and I gave the backstory pertaining to how far Hollenshead was involved (me) and how dirty he was (Fred) from the Dude Fire Shredding Party. I also am looking forward to leaning just how unqualified that Terminally Stupid Fuck Up Marsh was. It was SOP to be unqualified back in my day, or qualified in the eyes of the selecting official only without any oversight. That SHOULD NOT have been the case when Marsh was hired and the national interagency hotshot crew standards were in place.That is what Fred devouted the last half of his career to…I think?
I have always tried my hardest to be a good friend…or a bad enemy.
And all the years that Hollowhead was the the USFS National Fire Operations Safety Officer in NIFC and then the Region 5 Fire Director, think of all the fatality wildfires he MAY very well had influence over.
Cramer Fire Entrapment Fatalities (2003) Idaho 07/22/2003
Nuttall Fire Entrapment (2004) Arizona 07/02/2004
Waterfall Fire Entrapment (2004) Nevada 07/14/2004 Entrapment
Little Venus Fire Entrapment (2006) Wyoming Entrapment 07/18/06
I-90 Tarkio Complex (2005) Montana 08/10/2005 Entrapment
Cascade Complex (2007) Idaho 08/12/2007 Entrapment
Devils Den Fatality (2006) Utah 08/17/2006 Entrapment
Esperanza Fire Fatalities California 2006 Entrapment
Angora Fire Entrapment (2007) California 06/26/2007 Entrapment
Ahorn (2007) Montana 07/30/2007 Entrapment
Panther Fire Entrapment Fatality California 07/26/2008 Entrapment
Iron Complex California 2008 Helicopter crash fatalities
Dutch Creek Fire Fatality California July 2008 Tree fatality
Yeah…both Joy and the Woodsman are right. I couldn’t see the forest for the trees. I was just too pissed of this morning to think straight. I didn’t like all of the things those enablers said about me. Definitely showed a weakness on my part and very un Oddball like.
On a side note…HOLLOWHEAD! I hadn’t heard that one in years! 😂 Lots of years! How about “Special Ed”? That was his other big one.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on June 21, 2019 at 9:19 am
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> Also this ridiculous moment where Neill and others put
>> Dugger Hughes letter ( Horseshoe2 Fire ) out there saying
>> LOOK Hughes complimented the GMHS – that was general letter
>> that goes out – those are standard boilerplate that all
>> the teams and all the regions and resources no matter
>> how good or bad their performances – just a feel good thing…
Yes… that “Certificate of Appreciation” that went out from Southwest Incident Management Team Incident Commander Dugger Hughes ( who was also the Superintendent of the Ironwood Hotshots, just down the road from Granite Mountain ) was pretty standard stuff.
The Southwest Incident Managment Team ( SWIMT ) pretty much hands out those ‘Certificates of Appreciation’ like candy.
Here is SWIMT Incident Commander Bea Day giving one to ‘Pam Newman’…
http://fsbizsite.com/prnewman/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Apprectiation-Award-e1515705810631-300×218.jpg
And here is SWIMT Incident Commander Alan Sinclair giving one to ‘Jamie’.
‘Jamie’ is a CHIMPANZEE.
https://chimpsnw.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/web_Certificate_jamie_wildland_firefighter_IMG_0606-copy.jpeg
MANY more… but only a 2 link limit per post. Just ‘Google’ it.
My comment is awaiting moderation because I inadvertently broke the “two link” rule. So…I have to delete some of the ones I sent out to make sure everyone who wants to find me…can. But…you already know the correct ones anyway, so, I will delete all of my contacts t info I sent to him.
Hi Taylor,
My name is Gary Olson and I am one of the people being accused of some things that aren’t true by Amanda Lohman. I have read all of the responses to her post and I picked yours out of the group because quite frankly, yours stood out the most.
I would very much like to engage in a constructive conversation with you regarding the misinformation that us being spread by Mrs. Lohman. You obviously can benefit from learning the truth and I thought, “Gee…if I can talk to this guy, maybe there is a chance of an exchange of ideas can resolve the issues that separate us.” And at the very least…perhaps we can disagree without being disagreeable to each other.
I have never hidden my identity or my contact information and in fact, I have encouraged people to contact by using my real email address, which is deleted My telephone number is deleted my website address is deleted and my physical address where I live is at 6285 Rogue River Hwy. Unit #5, Grants Pass, Oregon.
But…please don’t do or say anything that can be construed as making a terroristic threat against two very dear friends of mine, Joy Collara or Fred Schoeffler in violation of deleted Making a terrorist threat; false reporting of terrorism; liability for expenses; classification; definitions, A. It is unlawful for a person to threaten to commit an act of terrorism and communicate the threat to any other person.
As a retired GS-1811, Supervisory Criminal Investigator, Sr. Special Agent, I am quite comfortable and very experienced with people threatening me because I understand that they usually don’t really mean it, just as I don’t believe you do. But…I can handle it better, so please make them to me and let them do their important work on uncovering the rest of the truth regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
I promise I won’t hide from you or any of the firefighters you know. I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience and I really hope we can exchange our opposing views on what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and the acts that caused the catastrophic destruction of our beloved hotshot crew. My interest in this horrific event of historical magnitude can be best explained by my brief resume as follows, since I never quit being a hotshot in my heart.
Gary L. Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter, Prescott National Forest, hotshot crew boss of the Happy Jack Interagency
Hotshot Crew, Coconino National Forest, hotshot crew founder and crew boss of the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew, Santa Fe National Forest, Assistant District Fire Management Officer of the Espanola Ranger District, Santa National Forest, Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, Zone Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforcement Officer and retired Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI – BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Duty Stations – Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, & Phoenix, AZ, 2.0).
Thank you for your attention in this matter and I very much look forward to hearing from you…or any of your friends who may want to talk to me about an event so horrible, it literally turned my world upside down and made me question everything I thought I knew by leaving me dumbfounded with my heart shattered into dozens of pieces, a heartbreak from which…I shall never recover.
Gary
Well…this is a real mess now because the bike of my comment now isn’t going through. I will try again later because right now, this is a real mess.
Well…this is a real mess now because the BULK of my comment now isn’t going through. I will try again later because right now, this is a real mess and I’m very frustrated. 😎
Whew–some must be taking it personal–is Amanda squirming? With Joy about to reveal more and RTS hot on the trail no one should worry–One think I know about Joy is she will not lie–and she will not put out garbage but good facts so we can know more of the truth and what are under the redactions and why the whole incident at Yarnell was such a bobble. Killing young heroes is no small matter–definitely no reason to make such a huge cover up unless someone is guilty that needs to be exposed.
Well..I’m going to try …again.
I was made aware today by HAL 9000 that Amanda Lohman has been making a lot of false allegations against some of us here on IM, but Joy and Fred seem to be her primary targets. I think I should have that distinction…so obviously this is very distressing to me.
Anyway…these (more than 100 comments) deserve your attention. I am very concerned about the safety of both Joy and Fred because one really beefy guy makes his threat while posing with his pit bull. And pit bulls scare me and I am normally fearless.
The only thing that scares me…is the thought of spending the rest of my pointless life without my Special Lady Friend by my side, but so far…that situation is looking…hopeful…maybe?
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/photos/a.748269025266283/2169813189778519/?type=3&theater
Check em out!
I selected this one (Thompson) to respond to because it was kinda a stand out for me, so I sent him a message, which did finally make it through above, except he got all of my contact information,
Taylor Thompson:
Post the screen shots and make them famous.
Then we would see how well they fared in the real world and not behind a computer screen.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
( Heart-shaped emoticon )
Taylor Thompson:
I know a few fire fighters that would like that information.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
Taylor Thompson love my fire family. A lot. Thanks for the Brother,y love.
See below where the guy offers to “take care of things” if she will publish NAMES… and Lohman/Marsh
just thanks him for his “Brotherly Love”.
And I’d course HAL 9000 did some insightful analysis, so I hope he jumps in here with some additional information. But…I want to do what I can to stop this nonsense, my next communication will be with some LE authorities in AZ.
Get some self righteous nut jobs spun up enough, and somebody could get hurt….like our beloved Joy and Fred.
Well…I just sent the same message to about 3 dozen of those who made comments. I tried to avoid sending it to friends because what would be the point that? So instead, I tried to focus on those who were truly asking, “why would someone do that?”
And that answer is easy, no one did, Lohman is a liar. I also tried to send it to everyone who was threatening or especially insulting.
Although I did send one to NEIL. 👿 Because you know…I couldn’t help myself. I also sent one to the big tattooed dude with the pit bull because, well…that just how I roll.
I’ll let you know how all of that turns out. But I’m pretty sure one thing will happen. Those people will quit picking on my dear friends Joy and Fred and focus on me instead, which is how it should be. I am still getting Special Agent hazard pay as part of my retirement from YOU PEOPLE! So…thanks for that. 🙏🏻 😎
Oh…and one more thing. I’m sure you have noticed that I use my resume like a SLEDGEHAMMER to get people’s attention. I think it is quite effective and very hard to argue against for the average critic and detractor.
They are left with,”Oh yeah…oh yeah…oh yeah…I will have to get back with you on the rest of that! 😎
My comment is awaiting mipiderstion because I inadvertently broke the “two link” rule. So…I have to delete some of the ones I sent out to make sure everyone who wants to find me…can. But…you already know the correct ones anyway, sips I will fix that.
I was made aware today by HAL 9000 that some of us from IM are being targeted by Amanda Lohman with some outrageous lies that are having a direct cause and effect which is resulting in some truly scary terroristic threats being made against primarily us…but primarily Joy and Fred.
Me too, but as we all know…I am bad to the bone and nothing scares me…except perhaps spending the rest of my pathetic life alone without my Special Lady Friend by my side, but so far, that’s looking…okay?
Anyway, you can find those threats here;
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/
I picked Mr Thompson’s out because it was a stand out to me, but there was another one from this really big beefy guy all tattooed up and posing with his pit bull…who was also kinda scary. Anyway, I thought I would see if I might be able to enter into a constructive diologue with him to see if I can do anything to turn this scary trend around cause I love both Joy and Fred so much, I don’t want to see them get hurt. Below you can read the message I sent to Mr, Thompson.
Taylor Thompson:
Post the screen shots and make them famous.
Then we would see how well they fared in the real world and not behind a computer screen.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
( Heart-shaped emoticon )
Taylor Thompson:
I know a few fire fighters that would like that information.
But…there are quite a few more that are almost as disturbing.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
Taylor Thompson love my fire family. A lot. Thanks for the brotherly love.
Hi Taylor,
My name is Gary Olson and I am one of the people being accused of some things that aren’t true by Amanda Lohman. I have read all of the responses to her post and I picked yours out of the group because quite frankly, yours stood out the most.
I would very much like to engage in a constructive conversation with you regarding the misinformation that us being spread by Mrs. Lohman. You obviously can benefit from learning the truth and I thought, “Gee…if I can talk to this guy, maybe there is a chance of an exchange of ideas can resolve the issues that separate us.” And at the very least…perhaps we can disagree without being disagreeable to each other.
I have never hidden my identity or my contact information and in fact, I have encouraged people to contact by using my real email address, which is [email protected]. My telephone number is 541-590-5038, my website address is http://www.ourfiregods.com, and my physical address where I live is at 6285 Rogue River Hwy. Unit #5, Grants Pass, Oregon.
But…please don’t do or say anything that can be construed as making a terroristic threat against two very dear friends of mine, Joy Collara or Fred Schoeffler in violation of 13-2308.02. Making a terrorist threat; false reporting of terrorism; liability for expenses; classification; definitions, A. It is unlawful for a person to threaten to commit an act of terrorism and communicate the threat to any other person.
As a retired GS-1811, Supervisory Criminal Investigator, Sr. Special Agent, I am quite comfortable and very experienced with people threatening me because I understand that they usually don’t really mean it, just as I don’t believe you do. But…I can handle it better, so please make them to me and let them do their important work on uncovering the rest of the truth regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
I promise I won’t hide from you or any of the firefighters you know. I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience and I really hope we can exchange our opposing views on what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and the acts that caused the catastrophic destruction of our beloved hotshot crew. My interest in this horrific event of historical magnitude can be best explained by my brief resume as follows, since I never quit being a hotshot in my heart.
Gary L. Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter, Prescott National Forest, hotshot crew boss of the Happy Jack Interagency Hotshot Crew, Coconino National Forest, hotshot crew founder and crew boss of the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew, Santa Fe National Forest, Assistant District Fire Management Officer of the Espanola Ranger District, Santa National Forest, Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, Zone Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforcement Officer and retired Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI – BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Duty Stations – Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, & Phoenix, AZ, 2.0).
Thank you for your attention in this matter and I very much look forward to hearing from you…or any of your friends who may want to talk to me about an event so horrible, it literally turned my world upside down and made me question everything I thought I knew by leaving me dumbfounded with my heart shattered into dozens of pieces, a heartbreak from which…I shall never recover.
I was made aware today by HAL 9000 that some of us from IM are being targeted by Amanda Lohman with some outrageous lies that are having a direct cause and effect which is resulting in some truly scary terroristic threats being made against primarily us…but primarily Joy and Fred.
Me too, but as we all know…I am bad to the bone and nothing scares me…except perhaps spending the rest of my pathetic life alone without my Special Lady Friend by my side, but so far, that’s looking…okay?
Anyway, you can find those threats here;
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/
I picked Mr Thompson’s out because it was a stand out to me, but there was another one from this really big beefy guy all tattooed up and posing with his pit bull…who was also kinda scary. Anyway, I thought I would see if I might be able to enter into a constructive diologue with him to see if I can do anything to turn this scary trend around cause I love both Joy and Fred so much, I don’t want to see them get hurt. Below you can read the message I sent to Mr, Thompson.
Taylor Thompson:
Post the screen shots and make them famous.
Then we would see how well they fared in the real world and not behind a computer screen.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
( Heart-shaped emoticon )
Taylor Thompson:
I know a few fire fighters that would like that information.
But…there are quite a few more that are almost as disturbing.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
Taylor Thompson love my fire family. A lot. Thanks for the brotherly love.
Hi Taylor,
My name is Gary Olson and I am one of the people being accused of some things that aren’t true by Amanda Lohman. I have read all of the responses to her post and I picked yours out of the group because quite frankly, yours stood out the most.
I would very much like to engage in a constructive conversation with you regarding the misinformation that us being spread by Mrs. Lohman. You obviously can benefit from learning the truth and I thought, “Gee…if I can talk to this guy, maybe there is a chance of an exchange of ideas can resolve the issues that separate us.” And at the very least…perhaps we can disagree without being disagreeable to each other.
I have never hidden my identity or my contact information and in fact, I have encouraged people to contact by using my real email address, which is deleted. My telephone number is 541-590-5038, my website address is deleted and my physical address where I live is at 6285 Rogue River Hwy. Unit #5, Grants Pass, Oregon.
But…please don’t do or say anything that can be construed as making a terroristic threat against two very dear friends of mine, Joy Collara or Fred Schoeffler in violation of deleted. Making a terrorist threat; false reporting of terrorism; liability for expenses; classification; definitions, A. It is unlawful for a person to threaten to commit an act of terrorism and communicate the threat to any other person.
As a retired GS-1811, Supervisory Criminal Investigator, Sr. Special Agent, I am quite comfortable and very experienced with people threatening me because I understand that they usually don’t really mean it, just as I don’t believe you do. But…I can handle it better, so please make them to me and let them do their important work on uncovering the rest of the truth regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
I promise I won’t hide from you or any of the firefighters you know. I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience and I really hope we can exchange our opposing views on what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and the acts that caused the catastrophic destruction of our beloved hotshot crew. My interest in this horrific event of historical magnitude can be best explained by my brief resume as follows, since I never quit being a hotshot in my heart.
Gary L. Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter, Prescott National Forest, hotshot crew boss of the Happy Jack Interagency Hotshot Crew, Coconino National Forest, hotshot crew founder and crew boss of the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew, Santa Fe National Forest, Assistant District Fire Management Officer of the Espanola Ranger District, Santa National Forest, Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, Zone Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforcement Officer and retired Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI – BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Duty Stations – Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, & Phoenix, AZ, 2.0).
Thank you for your attention in this matter and I very much look forward to hearing from you…or any of your friends who may want to talk to me about an event so horrible, it literally turned my world upside down and made me question everything I thought I knew by leaving me dumbfounded with my heart shattered into dozens of pieces, a heartbreak from which…I shall never recover.
Gary
I was made aware today by HAL 9000 that some of us from IM are being targeted by Amanda Lohman with some outrageous lies that are having a direct cause and effect which is resulting in some truly scary terroristic threats being made against primarily us…but primarily Joy and Fred.
Me too, but as we all know…I am bad to the bone and nothing scares me…except perhaps spending the rest of my pathetic life alone without my Special Lady Friend by my side, but so far, that’s looking…okay, maybe?
Anyway, you can find those threats here;
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/
I picked Mr Thompson’s out because it was a stand out to me, but there was another one from this really big beefy guy all tattooed up and posing with his pit bull…who was also kinda scary. Anyway, I thought I would see if I might be able to enter into a constructive diologue with him to see if I can do anything to turn this scary trend around cause I love both Joy and Fred so much, I don’t want to see them get hurt. Below you can read the message I sent to Mr, Thompson.
Taylor Thompson:
Post the screen shots and make them famous.
Then we would see how well they fared in the real world and not behind a computer screen.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
( Heart-shaped emoticon )
Taylor Thompson:
I know a few fire fighters that would like that information.
But…there are quite a few more that are almost as disturbing.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
Taylor Thompson love my fire family. A lot. Thanks for the brotherly love.
Hi Taylor,
My name is Gary Olson and I am one of the people being accused of some things that aren’t true by Amanda Lohman. I have read all of the responses to her post and I picked yours out of the group because quite frankly, yours stood out the most.
I would very much like to engage in a constructive conversation with you regarding the misinformation that us being spread by Mrs. Lohman. You obviously can benefit from learning the truth and I thought, “Gee…if I can talk to this guy, maybe there is a chance of an exchange of ideas can resolve the issues that separate us.” And at the very least…perhaps we can disagree without being disagreeable to each other.
I have never hidden my identity or my contact information and in fact, I have encouraged people to contact by using my real email address, which is [email protected]. My telephone number is 541-590-5038, my website address is http://www.ourfiregods.com, and my physical address where I live is at 6285 Rogue River Hwy. Unit #5, Grants Pass, Oregon.
But…please don’t do or say anything that can be construed as making a terroristic threat against two very dear friends of mine, Joy Collara or Fred Schoeffler in violation of 13-2308.02. Making a terrorist threat; false reporting of terrorism; liability for expenses; classification; definitions, A. It is unlawful for a person to threaten to commit an act of terrorism and communicate the threat to any other person.
As a retired GS-1811, Supervisory Criminal Investigator, Sr. Special Agent, I am quite comfortable and very experienced with people threatening me because I understand that they usually don’t really mean it, just as I don’t believe you do. But…I can handle it better, so please make them to me and let them do their important work on uncovering the rest of the truth regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
I promise I won’t hide from you or any of the firefighters you know. I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience and I really hope we can exchange our opposing views on what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and the acts that caused the catastrophic destruction of our beloved hotshot crew. My interest in this horrific event of historical magnitude can be best explained by my brief resume as follows, since I never quit being a hotshot in my heart.
Gary L. Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter, Prescott National Forest, hotshot crew boss of the Happy Jack Interagency Hotshot Crew, Coconino National Forest, hotshot crew founder and crew boss of the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew, Santa Fe National Forest, Assistant District Fire Management Officer of the Espanola Ranger District, Santa National Forest, Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, Zone Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforcement Officer and retired Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI – BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Duty Stations – Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, & Phoenix, AZ, 2.0).
Thank you for your attention in this matter and I very much look forward to hearing from you…or any of your friends who may want to talk to me about an event so horrible, it literally turned my world upside down and made me question everything I thought I knew by leaving me dumbfounded with my heart shattered into dozens of pieces, a heartbreak from which…I shall never recover.
Gary
New reading material …
“Why was it that the SAIT and ADOSH investigators were able to interview BLM employees but unable to interview U.S. Forest Service employees to obtain critical Yarnell Hill Fire Human Factors information?”
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2019/06/13/Why-was-it-that-the-SAIT-and-ADOSH-investigators-were-able-to-interview-BLM-employees-but-unable-to-interview-US-Forest-Service-employees-to-obtain-critical-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-Human-Factors-information )
I hope to God lots & lots of people from all around the wildfire world read this blog because I have something to say…please listen carefully.
Mr. Brad Mayhew? You are a bonafide 100% USDA choice piece of shit. Praise Jesus that I’m not in any way shape or form like you. Hallelujah!
That is all.
Woodsman