Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV, Chapter XXV, Chapter XXVI and Chapter XXVII.
© Copyright 2019 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Friends on IM:
Here is some good advice that may well save your life> That corona virus escaped or was released from a Type 4 biological facility. That is where the most dangerous lethal type air bornvirus are deveoped and played with. We have 16 such facilities –China has only one where that Corona Virus originated.
The virus has spread already similar to the way the Spanish flu did during WW1. My Dad helped stacked dead soldier bodies from that flu on his way over on the ship to the front during that war. This new Corona strain may well be the killer that will make a major population reduction, especially among the elderly and those compromised in the immune system.
When I visited my son there was already case in Tempe, but most of you know of plenty of cases around the world–Japan, Indonesia, Australia, etc. I believe this one can be defeated with just a surgical mask when you are in a hospital or large crowd.
For your information there are plenty of Level 3 experimental labs–mostly at the Universities. They are not necessarily guarded as Level 4 would be but also contain potentially lethal virus experiments. Britain has 9 of these level 4 labs–something for a small country. Prince Paul better watch out, his dream of coming back as a virus might be in one of his own labs. If you want the whole list of where they are in the US and other places, Wikipedia has them
We are a war like people on this planet–even devising methods to take people out by lethal diseases. What alien with any good morals would want to contaminate himself by showing up on the White House Lawn–well he would get lead poison there–the lethal kind–one I have experienced and one you do not want to experience–nor even the deadly virus the Chinese have invented.
China has 1.46 billion people. India has 1.35 billion people. The US has .31 Billion people. You can see that we are quite small in population to these giants in human resources. If either China or India were to loose a population equal to our country they would still have over a billion people to carry on with. The Arabs have above .4 billion–so only have the states outnumbered by 100 thousand or so. Pakistan with its nukes is also famous for housing Osama Ben Lauden. North Korea has only a little over 22 million people–Mexico City has more than Korea.
But a sneak nuclear attack from any one of these small countries would leave this country so vulnerable. The idea that the citizens should be disarmed in this country is total ignorance of the world situation. Instead, every American Citizen, especially those trained in military action should be required to be armed. That may someday be the only hope for a last ditch effort to save the Country and its people.
This Bush, etc. idea of a New World Order is based upon the hopes that a few World Bankers, Corporate Trillionaires and Oil Magnates will be able to control the world populations. Common sense should tell you that any attempt to remove the sovereignty of this country will result in reducing it to third world status and perhaps even a slaughter of a large group of its citizens by removal of protection. We have not made ourselves popular among the world nations–and quite a number of them would just as soon see our demise.
So do not think this world will come to a peace loving situation by some New World Order crap. That is only made up so the dynasties that already exist can maintain their controls. It is not for the good of the sovereignty of our country and the common folk within its borders.
Yeah. chapter 29.
See you over there.
Happy Autumn.
Here is a direct link to the next ( new ) Chapter XXIX ( 29 ) of this ongoing discussion…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxix-here/
Joy, have your considered doing a UFO site? You are pretty famous with the site you are doing on firefighting–lots of revelations of truth there but I also know you are beholden to partners there and that site is dedicated to the Yarnell Wild fire on the main so I could understand and also the religious ramifications. Some of these fundamentalists think it is evil and of the devil and should not be looked into. That is like saying an evil molesting Priest or Preacher out not be looked into.
These drones, UFO’s and such could be behind some of these wild fires if not many–they are at an all time high the world over–including such big land masses as Australia, Russia, and Brazil and I am certain even Europe where my Irish relatives are even turning out to fight wild fires. As the Canadian Minister, retired said, the UFO thing in the US is above top secret, even more secret than the Hydrogen Bomb was during that time he worked in the Ministry. Now that means UFO interest by “Trade” secret laws has kept UFO basis only on allowing the public what the secret holders want to allow the public. Obviously they have plenty fear–one that the public might panic, and even more fearful is the fact that when public is the one providing the funds for these goats, there is the high possibility they would be removed from their powerful positions and replaced with honest folk willing to tell the truth.
So you are away from your computer but should you decide to make a UFO site on the side, I already some amazing photos–(I do not think these are government at all by their actions) and of course you still have some photos we took together over the years we pioneered Arizona. You are already famous for your efforts in the Yarnell Fire, the many people you helped to get to the site and inform about the fire and because you were a civilian with guts enough to go to the fire edge and see if you needed to warn people in the area and what worries your own town of Congress might have concerning the spread of the fire. Also, you Mother is an ardent believer in UFO’s and I am certain would support you to set up such a site.
It is time that people began to take these things seriously and quit making fun of something that is very serious. The public has been deprived in so many areas and it is the shame of such organizations as the CIA when they were doing bogus experiments on citizens and keeping those things under secret protections. Much harm was done to citizens and now we have NASA and the Military controls hiding information about things the public has the right to know–Damn them for using our tax monies and hiding information that really has no right to be withheld from our citizens. And the same goes for the fire fighting honcho group that does the same.
People want to say that well they can’t keep a secret in government–that is a lie–the spy planes were held secret for 12 years before being revealed. One that came in, a long time military and top flight pilot saw for the first time and said what is that–yet it was in the works for over ten years. So yes, the government by need to know and compartmentalization has kept plenty from the public and much of it had no concern at all for public defense issues.
The UFO thing, right along with wild land fire fighting methods and mistakes, in my way of thinking, is one issue that all information needs to be out there. I think because of Joy’s connections with Hollywood figures and her devotion to truth and exposing lies, she would have a great value in presenting to the public what the Feds do not want the public to know. However, she would have to be allowed the freedom of expression and no hindrance from religious people or others with agendas not aligned with finding the facts.
I, for one, know that Joy has some photos that defy reason but the camera does not lie, just as her photos at Yarnell did not. I can add some amazing photos as well and some true stories that bend the mind a bit to drag one out of the box of control–those ideas inculcated into our minds by parents, peers, and authoritarians–who are most often deluded by their false beliefs, religious ideas and learning.
When you have astronauts telling us we have been snowballed by truth then it is time for someone with the ability to challenge ideas we have been falsely given and someone to start a move to reveal things like what are the added chemicals in retardants that affect the health of humanity? Or did you know for example that Tungsten is very near the hardness of diamond and has a density a tad more that Uranium at 19.25 and just barely under the density of gold. Tungsten carbide is a very much harder and safe and better bullet perpetrator than depleted Uranium and does not have the dangerous radiation effects uranium does. But then what better way to get rid of the depleted by products of nuclear reactors than put them in bullets to light up your enemy and make your own soldiers exposed as well? Well you might say Tungsten is expensive–truth is if you want to replace depleted Uranium at only 6 in hardness then use the abundant manganese with the same hardess at 6 or even better mix it with a bit of iron to bring it up to 7.5–add a little Tungsten to bring the density up more but keep the depleted uranium out of the environment–well of course we don’t mind polluting the Arabian environment–but maybe we are polluting the desert right outside El Paso these days on those Army Practice ranges that some day may be used for habitation.
At any rate, there are indeed some idiots that run things–well maybe not so much idiots as people the care less about the environment and the health of people and leaving the planet better and not worse for our progeny.
And Joy–if you do get a site going–I have some true stories–most of what you already know that might make the hair stand up on some. Remember Robert Long–His hair looked like he had his finger stuck in a light socket.
Happy trails and Christmas, New Year, and Holidays or whatever religious idea you have–may it serve you well and may the truth bear upon you.
Also–Tungsten is 7.5 in hardness pure but add a bit of carbon and get a carbide at 9 in hardness that I use on my circle blades to cut sandy mesquite–forget those chain saw blades that have carbide–the tips have a habit there of breaking off unless they have improved the process. But tungsten carbide will cut through nails with not problem.
And Joy go to your email and answer a question.
Sometimes if I go back and re read things–snowballed by lies not truth–hard snowballs at that. If there is a hell some of the Feds will burn especially those involved in such things as the Yarnell cover ups and using citizens for experiments and lab rats when they know the effects already but just want to verify their experiments–In Scientific circles you have to repeat experiments to see if they are repeatable. Common sense ought to do involving people exposed to the retardant, but what does it matter to some that they wiped out so many elderly at Yarnell?
And you say well that is outlandish thinking? Shit they had no qualms doing testing of Atom Bombs with citizens downwind getting heavy doses of radiation–nor did they mind sending crews in to inspect the bomb sites and clean up the area after. But you can bet those same scientists knew that Madam Curie and several that got exposed to Uranium accidentally at Los Alamos took a very quick and painful unnatural death from radiation poisoning–the Scientists certainly did not go in for clean up jobs. Nor did the Uranium Mining Companies take proper precautions for its miners–you can use any excuse to sacrifice men in the name of National Defense even after there is enough atomic artillery to destroy every living thing on earth.
And yes there are many, probably most scientists that are of a good and true nature and worry as much as any citizen about the environment and health of the people and the planet. But there are definitely some goats in high places that ought to be put out to pasture.
And to understand the goat– If you have a Mexican call you a Cabron, it is an insult–he called you a goat. If an Irishman calls you a Poc or if female a Minseach, I will let WTKTT tell you what that would mean.
Gary, I had missed your comments about how you were treated but wise enough to get under the whistle blower’s act. The experience shows the extremes people will go to maintain their devious actions and anyone exposing them will be attacked. Why so few want to go against the flow–too much pressure to point out wrongdoing by the cronies working their system.
Someone decided how the Yarnell incident should be presented to the public and others then with collusion and with fear tactics applied to those that wanted to tell what really went down to kill the GMHS, the culprits managed to arrange the presentation so reputations remained intact. The murky waters were looking good on the surface by their methods but the divers would go below the surface to see the sharks patrolling their territory.
And indeed, the Ukraine whistle blower will face controversy–likely he is one of the fellows who could not stand by when he witnessed obvious wrong doing. One man that wiould gladly stomp on you if you pointed out the wrongdoing of his ways would be Trump. This guy is going all out to maintain power–and unlike a Nixon, he will not be easy to admit wrongdoing even if he is caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
There is so much in government wrongdoing that is hidden under what is supposed National Security ruse. There are certain things that hold justification for those measures but I could bet some 90% hidden under the act would be considered criminal acts if facts were known.
There was a documentary about the Navy building underground and even under sea areas where a small city of people could reside for a long stay. It mentioned this had been going on since the 1940’s and even continues. It is well known there are several locations–well secured but places where there are at least three areas underground where certain elite can go should chemical or biological warfare or atomic warfare–or any other catastrophe should occur.
But I had in mind that it would seem strange that the Navy would be doing underground things. Then I remembered years ago I had asked Vern Harkness where he had gotten hold of his outdated stopers. Those stoper machines were not like a jack leg but had the air leg permanently attached to the drill machine and were such that you could only drill either vertical or perhaps up to a 45 degree angle. There was no water needle so you had to drill dry.
The point was he had told me he bought those at a Navy auction and I had always wondered what the hell would the Navy be doing with drill machines. They were Atlas Copco–heavy mine stopers–clumsy beasts to handle but nothing a jack leg couldn’t do better since a jack leg can do vertical or horizontal or even angle down holes. So likely the Navy had upgraded to more modern Jack Legs and gotten rid of those old stopers that Vern likely bought for a song.
It does make sense that the Navy would want under ground access to the sea for submarines and even areas below the ocean where people could survive a nuclear holocaust totally undetected.
We do know there are trillions of dollars were moved around and unaccounted for–when Building 7 went down–CIA records and records that included many black secret projects went down with it so only a few will know the extent of what was really spent on these projects. There were leaks and whistle blowers but Gary tells us exactly how it is done to discredit people by sending them to a Psych test and other means to present them as a mental case even on a project such as a forest service job then you can imagine how much more devious things can get as you go into the higher echelon of clandestine operations. People do go missing and if you remember the Foster case–connected with the operations of Bill Clinton then you can understand it is a situation where you can find your life at great risk.
I personally see the Democrat-Republican as essentially a one party system with both controlled by the same forces–Banks, Corporations, Oil and Chemical Companies and those individuals that are low key generally unknown yet own the political system and can easily make directives no matter who might be in office. They would be the 1% who own 90% of the wealth–those that would be first to occupy the underground cities should the shit hit the fan–and those that own the media in the back ground.
When Gary said that Whistle Blower that talked on Trump will have his life totally screwed with from now on–it is no joke. Some big money got Trump in since he is a friend of big business–where we go from here is anyone’s guess–but I got an idea the the nation will all be singing Aquarius within a very few decades.
Sonny,
I emailed you just so you know it was me today but I will not be near pc for awhile – maybe three times in this Season- I am in a on and off remote “off-grid” situation and awaiting STILL “clearance” to log back on to my blog- it has been a very rough time since coming back from D.C. yet if there is something we learned in pioneering, Sonny – there is “good times” and then there is those “rough times” but always good times again so I remember that but meanwhile if any ONE person wants to elaborate to me or the world on prior GMHS close call or near misses besides the Holloway Fire, please come share or visit me in person by name or anonymous … YOU MATTER and I am really wanting specific ones and wish I could name you but if you are reading this … please note … I know and I will help you or you help me if you please can manage in some way … it matters. I am not doing a book or movie ever on the tragedy but I am three to five percent from completion on June 30, 2013 and I know Corey Moser would beg to differ yet Corey you never met a person that was on those Weavers who has the depth of passion for that day and truth like the hikers will always have… I pray one day the person who had a falling out that afternoon if he would come to me; that person too. You seem to have got “freaked out” at the N.C. conference yet there is not a day that goes by that I think you can help even if I pulled the records on “PB” – it is your true account that matters. But so many accounts pending – too many …
I want to assure you the rest of information has not been stuff you can just “toss out” – oh hell no-
it has to be brought out just right not so much for sensitivities of others but for the sensitivity of it for sure not vanishing or denied or whatever yet in all my heart I know there is much more. I have to be glad in all things but it has not been easy if one knew all the details that has happened in 2019 especially- whoah … been a tough year
Sonny, I emailed these folks the past 24 hours because a “google alert” came to me and I will expect photo courtesy credit addendum to be made but this powerpoint presentation has us all through it without credit and I can only find the author properties as follows:
h t t p s ://7x24exchangerm.org/index.php
h t t p s ://7x24exchangerm.org/gallery.php?id=16
elementsofdisaster_03_23_2017.pptx – Microsoft PowerPoint Presentation (.pptx)
saved by Joseph Parrino for John N MacLean
I am documenting every conference and action of John Norman MacLean and the disrespect and inappropriate behaviors and illegal use without giving us proper photo credit on the pics in his presentations but in google search it does show:
#16 on left side is my photo in that Microsoft PowerPoint Presentation (.pptx) is my photo.
#17 my photo is on the left and the one on the right is from the hike with John Norman MacLean of us hikers.
#18 both my photos and he does mention us in description and so Fire20+ maybe you need to peak at his presentation because he does not say it is Moki helitack at 6:30am- you might wanna go read it since you are an avid investigation gal…he actually says “Marsh observed by Joy walking up the ridge ahead of his crew and later talking with someone on the ridge top.” Note that Fire20+ … yeah, later not “before” … “just saying” … it gets tiresome how many try to discredit or put lies and misinformation out there on me and my account … but hey I will challenge you always no matter who … really and Moser your days have not even surfaced on what we can learn from you on June 30, 2013, right?
#19 left photo is my photo.
#21 is all my photos.
#24 what an endearing photo of you Sonny helping me get up from spot you had left me on June 30 2013 – a re-enactment on the hike with John Norman MacLean yet John stated “1: 10 PM: Tex saves Joy and the hikers head out to the west.” … to clarify … the photo was taken above the Helms on the 2 track by the old burned bush and we headed West for a moment to get to Congress side then headed East which is Number 11 Anthony Rose on the Arizona State GMHS Memorial Park then down to Acri’s and out towards the Susan’s on Foothill Rd. so little bit right but more information is needed because to say headed west and leave it at that means we went towards the flaming front out by the old grader and we veered South then East…
#26 – I am getting sleepy but this photo looks to be one of mine zoomed in and I would have to fact check so I am tired and about to close this post out – yet it was something I wanted on Google Search results that I gave the photo credit to a presentation that had my information and I have always asked for photo credit- I mean come on, you all who made profits and income out there – it is not much to ask for … I mean John ruined it for so many because I use to state only photo credit yet that shifted that you have to now ask my permission and reason for using my photo since I seen so many misuse of them. I gave the world the chance to be pure – it was some who changed my photo usage so now I ask for my handwritten permission “photo release” – I never at that time imagined people to be distasteful in the manner I have seen.
#32- that photo was the pic John Norman MacLean took and he was present when all that happened and it was many months later…
and Sonny this was me at the hotel who wrote this:
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-481075
it would not allow my name on there and I was frustrated and tried your name and it posted-
h t t p ://7x24exchangerm.org/images/downloads/2017_Presentations/elementsofdisaster_03_23_2017.pptx
Joy–Yes I believe you said you had posted under my name but it was obvious you were the one posting–well understood since you were unable to post under your own. It was an interesting post OCT 4:2019 and I had not seen it.
Sonny,
I have been in Santa Fe-
I met some old Grants NM miners yesterday –
when I am near an able place I will email you a man who may know you-
They are way old timers and they knew about Gary’s father and said many of men died in that mine noone even knows about – “tramp miners”
you are lucky to be alive, Sonny the way they report the treatment you all saw-
they said it was a daily war no woman could ever get-
I was at a wealthy type ranch yesterday – a kind of place only seen in movies – and I walked the area and if I ever participate in this firefighting role – I need to bring more tools along and not a pulaski or fire shelter.
Anyways- still in recovery stage and if my site emailed me I am not able to get on there anytime soon to get to it.
Just a pop in to let you know Sonny I am still breathing
I think it is breathing
it is for sure one foot in front of the other
Yes there is a sadness for Gary’s father–something that should never have happened. For those that do not know, Gary’s father fell or was knocked down a 900 ft shaft that I later worked in known as Section 30, Grants, New Mexico and owned by Kerr McGhee Mining Company. There were few safety precautions taken since the government was in a rush to get a stock pile of Uranium under the idea that the country needed the security of more atomic bombs. I believe the date he was killed was 1963–the early stages of the mine. Perhaps Gary will correct me on that since I had worked there in my younger years for a time and I believe about two years after he was killed. I later returned and again did time in that mine. Maybe Gary will give us his name–he is one of the unsung heroes of Uranium mining that gave his life with good intentions of risking it all for that need of Uranium. I saw his photos and had them on a computer and felt the comradeship a wild land fighter would feel for a fallen wild land fire fighter.
Gary’s father was indeed a true underground miner wearing the same yellow suits that you often see firefighter in during wet situations. I believe someone knocked him down the shaft either accidentally or by some silly joke. I was once goosed near an open shaft and boy did I take a swing at the joker that did it. Not funny but just as in fire fighting you will find idiots that ought to have the shit kicked out of them. Those are life and death situations and not a place for horseplay.
About every hundred feet or so there are tunnels going back in off the main shaft–levels as you would lable them such as the 100 foot level, 200 foot level and so on down to the 1200 ft. level which would have been the bottom of that mine. The tunnels going off from the shaft can go in any direction but go following the richest Uranium Ore. That is found by drilling long holes–usually 75 ft drill holes -and I have done these –you use a jack leg which is essentially a Jack Hammer you see on streets attached to an air leg that lifts the machine for you so you can drill horizontally or vertically or any angle in between. The long holes are made by screwing on a 4 foot piece of drill steel as you advance until reaching what distance the geologist wants to push a probe up into to measure radioactive levels.
So there is a little about the experience of Uranium Mining and I had known when my son Ted got caught up in a huge boat winch by his glove catching on a frayed cable how that could happen. When blasting out uranium in a stope you tie a slusher bucket off by drilling a hole in the face after a blast then screwing in a rock bolt and plate with your jack leg and a steel that has a socket to fit the square head of a rock bolt. A block or pully is hung off the bolt and plate and cable that is attatched to the back of the slusher bucket. That way you can pull the bucket back to the face over the muck and ore–there is another cable attached to the front of the bucket to drag it back toward the operator. That winch of course has two sides, one side pulls the bucket forward the other side back and is operated with a lever–and yes with slusher cables you could be caught in one like Ted was–but once you take your hand off the lever it snaps back and immediately stops the winch. So on the same principle my son had his arm literally torn loose from his body and was being wrapped up in a huge boat winch–by luck a boss heard his screams and ran and shut the winch down. Simply because they neglected to replace a defective lever my son lost the use of his arm and eventually died from the medications to keep him out of pain. He had gone through many operations, including removing nerves all the way from his ankles to his buttocks which they attempted to implant in his arm but that never worked.
So you see how I can be so angered that Gary’s Dad’s death was never properly reported, nor were the Storm King Deaths reported truthfully as to causes, nor were the Montana
Mann Gulch deaths reported with the correct information. Dr. Ted Putnam was lead investigator on the Storm King involving 14 deaths and he spent years–I believe about 10–investigating those 13 deaths. He certainly was not wanted to investigate the Yarnell incident of 19 deaths and was even discouraged from going into that area. He had found too many discrepancies in the 27 earlier wild land fire fighting deaths so that the so called Fire Gods, tin men that they are, were totally uncomfortable having him anywhere around. His credentials are too overwhelming and his character impeccable to have such an authority on wild land fire deaths looking into another cover up.
So yes, Joy, I did have a tinge of guilt after I had learned that the hybrid GMHS crew had dropped off in that box canyon of choked manzanita growth. I had though what if I could have been there to stop them. How could they have done that knowing they were supposed seasoned wild land fire fighters-it would be like a Uranium miner going into an open stope. (an open stope is an open area where no mesh was bolted up to keep a rock of slab from falling and either injuring or killing you). And if a miner did that and he were seen by a boss or shifter and reported he would automatically be fired–the one thing they would automatically fire you for since too many were injured or killed that way–a big expense on the company.
There you have it–a bit about the hard rock and Uranium tramp miner. The tramp miner came from miners because they were such a breed that you did not fuck with them–they knew their lives were on line and kind of like a war zone. And mining depends on the price of metals or demand. When tungsten was up the mines were open–but as soon as price drops they would close so your job was always iffy. I was a raise miner at Fierro, NM for a measly 9 months when a strike shut that one down. A zinc mine I worked in at Mt Hope Nevada I was fired because the boss and I were together on a three day drunk–he would not let me go back to work and wanted the company. I did not care–that was a rat hole and I was nearly killed there more than once–once a slab as big as a pickup truck fell within a foot of making a pancake out of me and George–that boss I was with. That was one dangerous rat hole–but I was at work in the Union Carbide Tungsten mine near Rachael, NV within two days of being fired. That mine shut down in only a year or so–tungsten prices and it just did not make Union Carbide enough money. But I had rolled my pickup and dis located a shoulder so lost that job.
But you can see the independence of being a miner but know that as high a paying occupation as it is, it is iffy. My Mormon helper at that Tempaiute mine bought himself a new pickup and got in debt since he had thought that job was going to be a long one. It shut down soon after my accident. The sad thing was some from Bisbee Arizona were coming there. That open pit mine had operated for years and some of those miners–I have never been an open pit miner–but they had almost got to retirement –you needed 20 years–then the mine shut down so Phillips Dodge did not have to pay retirement to any of them so they were seeking jobs at random mines and an open pit miner is not savvy to underground mining. But that is the way the cookie crumbles for some.
Here I am still picking up rocks on the desert hikes I am making and can smile this morning at seeing the fellows–my pooches wrestle with each other and happy to see they are going to be amply fed and walked on another hike–without leashes I might add. I dont have one either or a barbed wire around my neck that someone wants to twist.
I did only two short hikes today–those recent October rains had mudded up a field that is a drainage area about a half mile back. So I did cross at least a quarter mile area where I had to hop from grass mound to mound but still areas where your clod-hoppers get mudded so bad that you have extra pounds on your shoes. An Indian would have taken off his moccasins and waded through bare footed–but I did not think of that until now–other things on my mind and I was able to bear the weight by huffing and puffing. It was a great thing to get across that plain and I could see that the dry lake some two more miles south had filled with water.–That lake had killed one cow that got stuck there and I had photos of–she looked like a cattle mutilation when I hiked by her carcass a few weeks back when the lake was bone dry–but despite what looked like she had been dropped from a heilcopter, I know she was stuck in the mud when that lake bed had filled with rain water. I wondered why the rancher had not tried to rescue her since his home faces that dry lake bed and she was about three quarters of a mile away in his plain sight. She was close enough to the edge of the lake and the water had to be shallow–less than 3 inches I would say since the mud was pushed up by her sides and with both legs folded under there was an evidence trail for only about three ft where she either struggled or slid–but no tracks leading in–her carcuss is still there but you would be wading shallow water and fighting mud to get to her. Oddly my dog the “White Coyote” and Blackie would not get close and there was no evidence of any coyotes or other carrion had ever approached the animal. Generally the buzzards and animals tear a dead animal apart and scatter bones everywhere but this one had been dead what looked to be months and was now petrified and only the hide peeled back from the face exposing up to just above the eye sockets? Strange and I will go back for more photos after the two or three inches of H2O evaporate. My phone that had the other photos was ran over by a semi when I forgot it on the side of my pick up.
For some reason because I had remembered that building 7 came down like a demolition job, I was interested in how that is done. I have used dynamite and prima cord wrapped around a timber or a stick of powder (dynamite) tied to a 12×12 timber will cause it to splinter apart. I had understood that 1700 engineers were not satisfied with the government version of things and had signed a petition to get a re-investigation. The government had lagged its feet–they had enough to deal with on the twin towers and those deaths so it was 7 years until the Building 7 investigation was completed.
Then there was a fireman on TV the other day of 30 years NY experience of burning buildings–He said in his 30 years of experience he had never seen high rise buildings come down due to an office fire. Building 7 sustained very little damage where some of the other buildings did but did not implode as did 7 and the twin towers.
A guy with 30 years in the NY City fire fighting ought to know his onions damn well and this guy had witnessed the fall of these buildings so I had to think wow–but it must be hard as hell to bring a building down.
Now having been an underground miner and having handled dynamite and even cramming it into holes for my Dad, I thought I ought to look into this building demolition thing. To my surprise it is not all that complicated. Of course, like mining, you need to have a good period of experience on how much dynamite to use, where to drill your holes and how to space them and a burn hole so you can pull the round. There are different ways to do it but each has to be done correctly or the round freezes and you will find yourself usually with a difficulty of re drilling and re firing a round. If you happen to drill into a dud hole which did occasionally happen to miners they they were off to their maker. I have drilled out a few rounds that did not fully pull and you are sure to have a few holes with dynamite still loaded in them–and it is a risky thing to do if you don’t see those and properly fire them before re drilling.
But the demolition I find is not all that complicated–I see they mainly take out the support beams on the first floor with charges and the middle support is fired first if you want the building to implode on itself. Electric blasting caps are set in milliseconds so that you can use them according to what you want to do. In pulling a round in a face say in a tunnel you would fire the burn hole first–that pulls out enough rock so you can then fire your center holes, then the back or top holes then the bottom holes say to shove the muck back or if you prefer in a v cut work the v from center to the side–all done will millisecond electric caps or if fuses you cut shorter ones for the burn hole and so forth.
So with a building they sometimes do also the second floor and if it is very tall then the charges are set to beams ever so many floors like a sequence of towers. Of course a plan is needed of the building to locate the support beams and a bit of time to drill cement around the steel support beams and get a hotter type special explosive next to the steel. Computers are now used as well to determine the best charge so this stuff is something a miner could learn fairly quick.
For mine charges you string a double stranded wire out from the face a ways where the blast won’t affect you and touch the ends to a battery or a box that is made for that purpose–a battery works fine since it takes very little electricity to set off a blasting cap. But in a building situation it is the use of a remote switch and a cheap 6 V battery or the like and you just send a radio frequency out from a mile away if you want–why you see them say turn off radios in a blasting area–in case they happen to be using remote switches.
So maybe that fire man had his first view of some imploding buildings–but it was not all that complicated to do that.
Joy, The people from the UK did show up to film the ordeal about my dog shooting me. I took all day–tired me out for sure –started at 8 and ended at 4. Had me lay under the truck as I had after being shot and many takes of the dogs and retakes. I had not known that it would be a job. So Mark my son was there as well and will be paid $250 for taking off from work. I am not sure how their take will be but I am sure some Brits will get entertained.
I did talk about the 19 and their demise and also about the half million tons of retardant that was dumped around Yarnell with the loss of 200 elderly in 6 years after those dumps. They were amazed to hear that and knew nothing about the 19 deaths of the GMHS. So I did direct them to Investigative Media–maybe it will draw some attention there since outsiders have a more objective view of things that the media here caught in a hard place not wanting to face too many of the facts since the general consensus it to go with the flow.
Long day–Cheers and Happy Trails.
That should have maybe been half million gallons retardant. We never had any real solid statistics on that and I was going off what someone has posted somewhere. Maybe WTKTT or someone knows the facts of all that was dumped on the Yarnell Fire and the Tenderfoot Fire soon after–I had mentioned both fires.
It is cold outside enough I have lighted up my tin heater and even enjoying a baloney slice being fried in a skillet on top. I made popcorn on it last night and perfect–enough I did a second batch while watching a documentary. Truth has always been stranger than fiction to me and I am certain with all the government secrecy that we are even ahead of the star wars movies in technology–much of course such as free energy will not be revealed. The powers that be are beholden to oil companies and chemical giants that expend millions to put them in office and besides own the media as well.
They will tell you the economy will be ruined if we get off oil–always garbage but presented in a way the general public will believe –after all they voted these entities into office –or did they really and did it matter which of the two you have represent your interest?
Most religious people will have you basing your life on faith–so you have a faith in your Preacher, Priest., Rabbi, or Mullah and in your President since God said you should and not only that you voted for him/her and you ought to have faith in yourself and God. Well if you are an alien you better have faith in An and Anna–and if a Celt, Ana (Danu),. or if a Viking perhaps Odin and Frigg might help matters, and if an Indian perhaps one of the Gods of the Happy hunting grounds or if Mayan, Itzamna, the creator Goddess. You might even respect the earliest of writings in cuneiform and refer to An and his sons Inki and Inlil, or some of their later generations of Osirus and other entities. But at least your brain has been trained and you live in a contented state awaiting your turn to either be raptured or moved to Hades, or maybe Pergatory, then a Heaven of sorts and descriptions depending upon the trends, cultures, fakirs, preachers, Bible interpretations, Pope’s ideas, and so forth of the era.
Good luck, there are 7 and one half billion residing now and plenty of billions already deceased so if you get a ticket to be among the 144,000 it will be like winning the lottery chances reduced by a factor of ten I suspect. Well you might have a pretty good Biblical chance since King David had a soldier killed so he could lay with his wife and he is touted as one of God’s favorites. But I think a tearful repentance got him some reprieve there and for a few other bad things he did. Well he knocked out and sliced up that giant and sent his arms, torso, head and other parts around to various kingdoms to express how you might wind up against the tribe of Judah. I think he kept the big penis for his own prize possession.
Well whatever idea you have for religion is fine with me. I do not proselyte–we have too much hidden and too many lies fed to us from birth so that the authoritarian types maintain their control, the preachers, priests and even the devil worshipers enjoy their stations and life goes on more or less in a mundane fashion with people accepting the propaganda and life on murky, often stormy but sometimes still waters How can we know if we do not know the facts and truth of matters — just so many phonies in the world and those that will not own up to the truth in important matters–we are left to have to delve into things ourselves. Can we accept the unacceptable?
But I was not to muse on that line of thought–instead about mining uranium and stopes. Wild land fire fighters start out as heroes. Uranium miners and most hard rock miners are usually dreaded dregs of society–wild men found in your worst dives, let all hell loose once they survive a day at the mine and acting as if it is their last day alive though they might have many and a retirement of good old age slim but possible.
I was a tramp miner–a name given to the type miner who when things were not right or the mine shut down because the mine was no longer profitible would grab his sleeping bag, diggers and hard hat and hit the road to where it was rumored miners were needed. It was 99% sure you had a job if that mine was operating and God always allows miners into heaven since he knows they won’t stay long despite Peter at the gate wanting to keep them out.
So about stopes=- Stopes are the miners’ working face. They can be just a few feet wide–say 15 or even 50 and an open stope is very dangerous. Open stopes are created by pulling Pillars. The Pillars are what holds the mine up. In Uranium mining in the richest ore, every 50 ft crosscuts are made so that 50 foot square pillars are made. Then there is pulling Pillars. The Pillar miner is akin to the Raise Miner in that it is a job that is bound to eventually get you hurt or killed. The Pillar miner goes in and starts slicing off the edges of the tunnels and shushing the ore out so that there is an open stope. In Uranium mining it was nothing to look up over a hundred feet where the unsupported sandstone had fallen in an open stope. So my hard hat is off to the many Pillar miners that did not make it or were hurt–especially in Uranium mining.
Hard Rock mining is not so bad in open stopes but as I once said I have had a slab the size of a vehicle only more dense fall so close more than once that only good fortune had been the reprieve. George Latham, foreman and a man that his lungs were so bad that he had to take ten minutes to climb a 30 ft. ladder was with me on one of those times in the Mt Hope Zinc mine in Nevada. But mining is like going to war–you become very religious and just do what the Bible says eat, drink and be merry. If you are a mormon-and I had a Mormon helper at the Tungsten mine 7 miles out of Rachael Nevada, that downwind place for cancer studies, and I think he said thank you Joseph when he stubbed his toe. I wonder if he is still alive–likely cause he was not a tramp miner and had other interests and affiliations.
So, yes–might be a good thing for the wild land fire fighter to have a mentor. And maybe it is not a bad idea to do what the GMHS crew did concerning religion if it can get you away from drugs then go for Jesus or Allah–though I am not for head bumping of any kind. Even the foot ball players wear helments–and I can’t count the times I have bumped my head in a tight rat hole when I did not have a hard hat on.
But the whole world lives dangerously–just avoid it where possible–but someone has to do the dirty work.
Now before you make a joke about someone believing in UFO’, you need to go to Tubi and get through a documentary titled BEYOND THE SPECTRUM– It is a bit hard getting through the beginning where Jaime Maussan describes his Journalistic Journey and how he got there. Jaime speaks good enough English and it is easy to see he is an honest person–quite sincere at getting at the truth of a situation.
After the documentary some might want to get an infrared camera–but not all is on infrared. There is also an American pilot telling his encounter–with others–and just too many people that see these things and now record them.
Perhaps someday I will tell of my experience of a silent bright light hovering over me sometime in the desert night maybe midnight maybe earlier and the next thing I remember is walking down the Southern Pacific railroad with ripped up clothing–and to this day I can not tell you what happened to get me 20 miles from where I had seen that light? Joy knows the whole story–but like most you just do not want to be called a crazy by telling something you absolutely know happened but have no explanation of it. On that track I was walking the wrong way like a zombie when my mind suddenly began to register again. What was it? Well it was a brain farc for sure–and to this day no recollection of that interim. I have been there since to see the distance and from where I was to where I wound up is way too far to have made it walking through the mesquites, barbed wire fences, ditches and obstacles–so did an alien grab me and suck me up into that light? Your guess is a good as mine.
And maybe like the Yarnell incident I will get to the rest of the story–maybe even sooner than six years.
I once sold gold when it was around 300–I was good at it and people that bought some in the hundreds of thousands from me made a killing once it went up. I am now buying myself a bit of silver–it has been low for a long time about 20 per ounce–expect it to take off once that market bubbles. Well otherwise hang on to the green back–it will do well for paper decorations and St Patrick day fire starter.
But this country will never go broke–how can it–when the government needs money they borrow from the Fed Reserve by taking an official looking paper and exchanging that for green backs. That goes into the Bank–and the Bank only needs 10% on deposit so they can lend out 90% which is mostly deposited right back and again they can lend out another 90% and so on so they create a bunch of debt and do well with usury. When short of money they can again print a piece of paper with a neat seal and official looks–trade it to the Federal Reserve for more green backs–of course they pay an interest fee of green backs to get that money supply but they also get to lend out all that and more for their interest–the debtors are all happy paying the interest and things are good. But somewhere folks might figure out the pyramid scheme it is —and that might be a good time to have some silver, gold or a good sack of beans and potatoes. Gold is expensive right now–but maybe not if you have lots of the green–if not opt for silver but it is heavier.
Trump was about to refuse a few hundred millions of these green backs to the Ukraine if they did not investigate Biden and Son–but it might cost him some. Kind of like Nixon when he had his cronies break into the Democratic Headquarters. These guys fight among each other–and do crap like that–but just don’t get caught since the other side will want your seat. Using tax payer money to induce investigations of political enemies might not be Kosher.
I think that was Prince Phillip–I am not one to keep up on English royalty–but the Christmas Tree decorated Prince (uniform similar to the Colin Powell regalia)–did state he wished to destroy the major portion of the Earth’s population by returning if he can as a deadly virus to do just that. Maybe Gaia or his secret gods are working on his wish.
So you want to know what are in the Chem trails. This is from the horse’s mouth–a couple military pilots who have dispersed the SEAD–a program that they have been doing full force for over a decade. Most of the chem trail dispersion is done with commercial jets–the pilots unaware of the SEAD additive in their fuel–they can not even see the trails from their cockpits But the military pilots are under STS-12 orders. Their planes are equipped with dispersion nozzles but well camouflaged so hard to detect..
The SEAD stands for Strontium, Enriched Atmospheric Dispersant. That sounds just like government lingo–Defensible Space and other terms to make things look scientific. The job is to do a sortie ADO (Atmospheric Dispersal Operation).
If any of the yellowish SNEAD is spilled or a leak happens in the nozzel area, the pilot must call a HAZMAT team to clean it up. But if there is a question about Hazmat suits, they are to say it is oil from the jet and the Hazmat suits on the clean up team is only to teach those men or practice in the use of the suits. In their more than ten years of flights they say only twice was there a leak–the inspections and work is very meticulous when using this SNEAD since it is higly corrosive and you have to know poisonous.
The ingredients beside Strontium are generally Barium and particulate aluminum. Barium of course is and has been used as a rodent killer. The aluminum particulate is a great health concern. EPA plays it down some but admits to lung problems, bone disease, kidney disease and birth defects–young children on the bone disease. And I have to wonder what trade secret ingredients the government has added as well.
There are thousands of jets daily and if you have not witnessed the chem trails then you need glasses. Con trails use to be clear within 5 minutes or less, especially at low altitudes in areas like Arizona. Texas, and the like. Hot dry air evaporates con trail water vapor almost immediately. So I can remember when you would see a jet with only a small white trail behind.
Obviously when you witness parallel chem trails those are not commercial air lines and sometimes those will be criss crossed to make the chemical thicker in the atmosphere. “But no matter, there are thousands of jet flights and all commercial fuel has the additives.
The scientists involved say it is absolutely necessary since global warming is already beyond reversing. Without the dispersants they have determined that the temperatures would already be in the destructive stages so that crops, people, aquatic life and environment would be in a destructive stage. Maybe they have something–are these mega fires not only due to over protection of forests, but also abnormal temperatures?
Anyway there is much to argue here since independent studies of such areas of the earth as the snows on Mt. Ranier have concentrations of aluminum exceedingly concentrated–enough to kill small rodents already. And like the retardants–years of applications have caused accumulations that border feed disasters for health, environment, and aquatic life.
There is no wonder for the increase in disease such as cancers and heart and lung problems. It is to be expected with the chemicals so profusely dispersed even in the air.
The information comes from a pilot who wrote it and printed actual copies of his dispersal manual. The documents are all titled STS-12 at the top–quite risky on his part but published anonymously. His statement–he was told the information would be out before now yet continues to be kept secret. He says people need to know how far things have gone so that it is now necessary to have these constant dispersals to protect climate. He stated much had to do with solar flares as well.
;Published 2017, it can be purchased on Ebay for $25 titled SMOKING GUN. That is a dollar a page–but most pages of fed documents STS-12. Education costs for a bat hide are extremely expensive these days depending on where you go–but even the cheap ones are expensive. Knowledge is at the base of freedom. It is also a form of empowerment. You are not so easily fooled if you have the facts for the truth.
Sorry–I meant Amazon, not Ebay–though they might have copies as well.
Came across this section on ” Box Canyons ” today from an article by John Reed titled: “John T. Reed’s review of The Unforgiving Minute by Craig Mullaney.” John Reed is a researcher and author that was a Team Leader in Vietnam.
( http://www.johntreed.net/UnforgivingMinute.html )
” Box canyons
“I was an elementary school kid in the 1950s, the era of cowboy movies and cowboy TV shows. Like all kids of that era, there are old snapshots of me wearing cowboy clothes and a pair of six-shooters in holsters. We loved Hopalong Cassidy, the Cisco Kid, the Lone Ranger (I saw him and his horse Silver in person at the state fair), Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, and a bunch of others.
” Any kid from that era knows you must stay out of box (dead end) canyons or narrow rocky canyons when you are moving around in enemy territory. Time and again in cowboy and cavalry movies, the good guys would come upon such a terrain feature. The smart good guys would stop and find a way around it. Only the dumb settlers or immigrants would go into those canyons. Bad guys and Indians would ambush people in those places. Afghans have been ambushing people like the British and Soviets in such canyons for centuries.
” What is correct military doctrine for passage through narrow canyons? Based on the Hollywood cowboys, just say no.
“I must admit I was in some hairy situations in Vietnam … We were very vulnerable at the bottom of a bowl of jungle-covered mountains. My men and I survived that simply because the enemy chose not to attack there. No other reason. Similar to what happened to Craig. But I never went into such a situation where there was an alternative.
“… there was a standing order throughout Vietnam that American and Allied forces did not move on the roads at night. We found a place to sleep for the night and left first thing in the morning. I never got any crap about it that I know of. I think the boss simply decided, “Yeah, that’s right. it was too late to start.” The problem is there are too many junior officers who would have said an order is an order. Craig may be one of them. I was not there so I cannot draw the conclusion. But the point still needs to be made for readers who may find themselves in those situations in the future.
“Apparently, the modern U.S. military does not have that knowledge. In the Pat Tillman friendly fire death, his unit was moving through a rock walled canyon so narrow that their humvee scraped against both sides of the canyon at times. A soldier who normally would have his head on a swivel scanning for enemy instead laid on his back on the humvee roof looking straight up the rock cliff walls because that was the only place an attack could come from. Of course, that begs the question of exactly what was he planning to do if such an attack came vertically down on them.”
Surely, the GMHS were among the smart guys that watched Westerns when they were growing up, ey. McDid-Not stated that they were in one of his interviews …
Reed also asks an interesting question elsewhere in the paper in the section titled “Killed his platoon”:
” Please name a U.S. Army platoon leader in the entire history of the country who ever “killed his platoon.” How would one accomplish that? ”
A quick GTS reveals: “Three or four squads make up a platoon, which has 20 to 50 soldiers and is commanded by a lieutenant.”
RTS says do not get caught in a box canyon in a fire fight–and GMHS crew did. But high ground above a fire is deadly as well since the fire will take the high ground in a hurry. You certainly did not want to be trapped in that box canyon the GMHS crew were in since the fire was below them whether it came from the Shrine, Sesame St. Dirt Road or even from the main fire itself. The two track was highly dangerous as well –that piece of white 2″ PVC pipe in the middle of the two track where they went down was scorched brown and melted into a snake by the fire. When Amanda wrote that people do not know fires, she was right. GMHS crew did not either and it seems that some wild land fire fighters have no clue of the dangers of getting caught in a box canyon or above a fire below apt to reverse direction. Was it because these men were hybrid fire fighters that knew about house fires but very little about wild fires?
Everyone talks about lessons learned at Yarnell. There were no lessons to be learned. What went down there was plain ignorance and for a wild land fire fighter stupidity. Those lessons of keeping out of box canyon were already known. Those would be criminal acts to disregard the lessons Marsh and Steed already knew to carelessly risk 17 young lives they were responsible for. Like RTS, Steed likely served in Viet Nam as a Marine. He would have known not to get trapped in any box canyon in a fire fight–be it bullets or wild fires. He died a hero for his service yet really screwed up by obeying orders from Marsh and if the story is true, he did it against his better judgement even to the point of arguing with Marsh.
It stands to reason that chain of command in wild land fire fighting is stringent enough to cause people to obey superiors even in cases like the killing of the GMHS crew. That idea of having to strictly obey orders on a daily basis is likely what Steed had in his head–what he expected out of his crew, he also had to set the example by obeying Marsh even at that dire risk he knew he would be taking. That problem needs to be addressed and discussed with crews and bosses–absolutely do not obey orders when some ass orders you down into a box canyon when you know that is a pilgrim move and why so many were caught as RTS points out–trapped in a Box Canyon.
Those stories by RTS remind me of what my Dad told me about catching the Germans at Alsace Lorraine. He said his outfit and another company had set up on high ground on both sides of a canyon. The German troops were marching through on low ground unaware—Crossfire from high ground in his words and they fell like cord wood. He was a machine gunner and that would be equivalent to a wild fire with machine guns coming down in a cross fire. They had wiped out a company of men in minutes just as the wild fire had taken out the GMHS crew in minutes and all because the German command had taken their men through what amounted to a box canyon situation.
The Lone Ranger and Tonto were no fools–you wouldn’t catch those two in a box canyon with outlaws around. I think Roy Rogers and even Dale Evans would have avoided the narrow canyons and Box Canyons with desperadoes on the loose. And when my Dad cut loose on some bad men and claim jumpers he took the high ground–they had lost the battle before it started.
The platoon of GMHS with said 2nd lieutenant Marsh was wiped in in their fire fight at Yarnell. Said platoon was caught in a box canyon with no escape route.
During the Viet Nam war most 2nd lieutenants were what were called 90 day wonders. They got a bat hide at some University then a bit of military training and were then put in charge of a platoon. The results were sometimes fatal since experience in war games overrides book learning. My MOS was Bulldozer Operator Engineer Corps and my orders did not involve me in fire fights. I strictly obeyed orders on a daily basis and my heart goes out to those that did as well and the sadness that many of our young men that are war time vets came back in body bags. War is a horror scene and the Viet Nam thing has always been debated–yet the men including myself that were involved believed it to be the right thing to do. My Dad tried to join the second world war after serving the first. He saw defending the country as a duty. Yet he too had questioned the Viet Nam thing yet was not a friend of Communism.
These days we see so many of our Vets coming back maimed and I sometimes wonder if this oil is worth the cost of all those young lives. Those men too believe in what they do and are heroes for their efforts. Yet there is technology to ween us from oil. Global warming is a real concern and the young ones are right in making an issue of it. This is their inheritance and some of them are gung ho to protect the planet. It is a shame that Trump is weighing America’s greatness based on wealth instead of doing the right and proper things–protecting the health of the people and environment. The pollution problem is real and the chemical world and oil world that is a big part of that must be throttled–and those kids need the example–not of greed but of doing the right thing.
Sonny,
Here’s a classic box canyon scene with some Groupthink to boot.
“The Big Country – Blanco Canyon Sequence” ( le0pard13 – Dec 14, 2010 )
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SDYkONnfCw )
“… When it becomes apparent that he and his men will be riding into an ambush, the Major turns to Steve for support. However, this man has had his bellyful of mindless violence and says so. The Major rides off alone to meet whatever fate awaits him. … ”
“… Steve gallops into view, drawing level with the Major he looks back to see the rest of the ranch hands come one by one round the rim of the canyon. … the importance of loyalty, affection and sheer guts even when good sense should dictate otherwise. ”
And maybe even some of the Abilene Paradox as well.
RTS, Probably almost identical to what happened at Yarnell. I could imagine Marsh not saying are you yellow but implying it. And even after Steed giving the back talk finally deciding to what the hell–if Marsh had done it I will chance it too and then likely Steed telling the men falling in line or stand back if you want. It would have taken some grit to be the one standing back there. And had Donut been there he would have been the first in line behind Steed. That was a scene of peer pressure extreme.
A sad scene for Marsh and his argument to do the unthinkable by risking lives to protect structures when nothing could have been done against such intense fire. I don’t know how mega fires are identified but if the fire scientists Wooten and Morrison were correct in saying the Yarnell Fire was releasing energy equal to a Hiroshima type A Bomb every 15 minutes that might fit the classification. Certainly what we were witnessing I knew an Army could not have slowed.
I would guess from the clip that those cowboys did not get hung up in a box canyon and managed to get through although the scene had them going through some country they could have easily been picked off from the bluffs.
Sonny,
A clarification and / or correction here.
You posted: “Like RTS, Steed likely served in Viet Nam as a Marine.”
RTS was NOT a Marine or anything else in any branch of the military, ever.
After Jesse graduated from high school he joined the United States Marine Corps, serving from 1996 until 2000. So then, he was clearly way too young and served in the wrong years long after the Viet Nam era
That would be true–that war ended in 1975–I was drafted July of 1967. You are right–he missed any war then. with Gulf war 90-91. He was much younger than I thought. Somehow the descriptions given by the press had me thinking he was a war time vet–no matter he served and did a good job I am certain or he would not have been able to advance as he did in wild land fire fighting.
He would have been, because of his training adhering to the GMHS creed that stated “you must strictly take orders on a daily basis”. There used to be a sign of the wild land fire fighter standards a person had to meet to become of wild land fire fighter posted along with the names of the GMHS crew there in Yarnell. I don’t know if it is still there but it listed some things that would turn most people away from wild land fire fighting.
Then I saw a whole crew of ladies being taken out of prison and used as wild land fire fighters and I thought how could this be since the description of the wild land fire fighter as posted there in Yarnell would test even the hardiest man. Maybe Joy has a photo of that since I know she took photos of it.
And that was sad–taking women out of prison and not paying them a wild land fire fighter wage knowing that they are being used like a soldier as gun fodder. Some greedy bastard gets rewarded while they do his job and he directs them. This world is too much based on greed and using people like that is equal to slavery. Certain they are paying for their crimes–many for smoking weed or other dope or peddling it–I call these petty crimes of the poor and uneducated. The wealthy and educated go to the doctor to get their dope but it is costly–works more or less the same though.
Well, the grunt wild land fire fighter is not all that rich and some use weed and dope pretty regular. I think Marsh even had a weed thing on him and we know Donut did time for his habit.
Double the wage for any wild land fire fighter is only fair these days and especially knowing what went down at Yarnell. A fire fighter in a crew is almost totally dependent on the boss of the crew. Those young men, trained as they are, if Donut is any example, are clueless as to safety and how to understand the nature of wild land fires and the importance of knowing a few things about them
Ted Putnam told me about an incident where he literaly had to cuss out and threaten a couple guys that were going to follow orders from their boss to go down in a situation that would have killed them. The fire burned over the very area they were headed to. Tells you how in too many instances these people do not understand or even follow common sense and can get themselves trapped as the GMHS crew did. Too bad Ted wasn’t there that day–he would have again saved some lives–but so would about a hundred other wild land bosses that we know about.
Well anyone serving as a wild land fire fighter is on a battlefield to preserve the things including lives of their fellow Americans and deserve highest honors. Those 17 fell through no fault of their own and I am inclined to give some slack even to Marsh since I believe the system let him slip through and Steed was a classic example of brain wash to strictly follow orders on a daily basis–his Marine training followed over into his leadership duties and despite his disputations with Marsh he would succumb and follow orders of the superior position of Marsh. These are my own ideas and opinions and if you wish to challenge them I want to hear and also why what I have said does not make sense. I would like an alternative explanation lie God fucked with their minds or the devil did or maybe some alien or the smoke had some chemicals from mind altering bushes that screwed with their minds. None sensible there–but what makes sense is the screening of bosses very carefully so you do not get another Marsh taking men down in a deadly situation.
I have hounded on Marsh–but I am not the only one, and rightly so. Maybe the tin men in charge above Marsh grade will start to take notice–maybe the rinky dink politicians that know so little about fire fighting will listen and start demanding a change in the system. It is a shame they have not noticed by now–but then if your life is about where the most influence and votes will be perhaps 19 lives is a small issue and since the majority of voters are already convinced along with likely the uninformed politicians, the Fire Fighting at Yarnell, the debacle that it was remains untold. The Fire Gods are safe for now, reputations intact and no changes be made. God fucked these guys over since he needed them somewhere else and if God did not do it, then it was just one of those things in wild land fire fighting–accidental death no one did anything even remotely wrong. Makes you want to puke. And what about those 200 lives that are dead after the retardant dumps–since they are citizens and generally elderly they might not register high on their agenda.
Anyway I was not going to post on the Yarnell thing. But we need to ban knives now–some bloke killed four with his knife in a police station in France–those knives are dangerous. No matter what you have some yoko is going to figure a way to use it to kill people. Car bombs, airplane bombs, knives, guns, rocks, sticks, and especially base ball bats ought to be banned. Al Capone was known to kill people that way.
The only reason anything is banned is because the government in charge is not trusting the people. The reason gun ownership in the second amendment was made was because if a militia needed to be formed to protect the rights of the people then it could. Those fore fathers knew there could be a time when a tyrannical government could again try to rule them. We fought the British for the express purpose to keep the country safe from such as the King George types. He was taxing hell out of the hard earned money of the colonists and even housing his military in private homes.
If You think gun control is a good thing then be ready to be the servant to the government you deserve to be. The government was formed under the constitution to serve the people but that has been steadily turning around as you see when now people in government can assess your private phone call, emails or anything at all if at their whim they decide to do so.
I thought Beto might be a good candidate until I see he wants gun control. But that is a politician for you and I am not sure but what most of the American public also wants gun control these days. They have little understanding of freedom which in reality does not exist these days. Yet if things get really bad–which in this world as it is with its barbaric ways anything can happen and by Murphy’s Law will. There are too many nuts loose out there and some of them have their mitts on nukes, bacterial diseases, chemicals and so on.
But sometimes I wonder if the real rulers of the world–those that own the banks, the big Oil Industries and so on that work in billions and so on are looking at the science view that if this planet does not reduce population to 800 million, it is doomed. Anthrax, Aids and Ebola are patented biological warfare creations–and we have seen their experimental use in third world countries. It was well known the effects of fall out and that it would douse those heavily east of the Mercury site where over a hundred above ground nuclear bombs were exploded–even one hydrogen bomb. Did the government warn people–hell no and those fall outs have definitely greatly infected people downwind mostly with high cancer rates. Now if you are a down winder you can collect up to $75,000 for your disease. I can tell you an operation will cost twice that much and likely end up ten times that amount of medical bills. You just fill out a form and prove your were there during the years of testing. January 27, 1951 the first atom bomb was exploded 500 ft above ground –higher than the original tower of 300 ft they used for the New Mexico Trinity Bomb. For a decade more they exploded something like 125 above ground and about 900 underground tests. And did they give a damn about the down winders then by warning. Hell no–kind of sounds like the Forest Service People that run the programs concerning lives of the wild land fire fighters doesn’t it.
It took many lawsuits and years of battling the powers that be before any redress was given to the victims. So do not give up your freedoms thinking good old Uncle Sam will save you–there are just too many factions in government that work their own scams their own way–and who is in control. Don’t think your Senator or Representative can walk into that Nevada Test Site and say what are you fellows doing? If he does he will be detained and if one of us does we will more than likely be summarily shot or minimally relegated to a nut house or a prison cell for a very long stay.
And if some bastard Sharia Arab decides to blow up our cities and their cells and hoards try to take over be they Arab, Chinese, or any other nationality I will gladly take up arms against them But if I have no arms to defend with–well I am up shit creek —
It is quite apparent that RTS, Gary, Dr. Ted Putnam Gary, Powers, Norb, Woodsman, and like individuals of long time wild land fire fighting experience should be getting high dollar to inform and train those young wild land fire fighters. Their expertise would not only save the taxpayer boo coos of money but more importantly the lives of those young men so green at what they are doing. You could see from Donut’s talks that too many are wearing his boots–ignorant of how to keep themselves alive.
What you do not want is people that are redactors, and yes men that want to protect reputations and make heroes out of wrongdoers. It is well known by many of the truth of what killed the GMHS crew–and if the true story were presented from the start much more attention would be made toward screening bosses and the importance of following simple and common sense safety rules. Yet it takes men who have saved their crews, saved lives despite orders that would kill, and men that can instill the fortitude in the young ones to resist following orders such as dropping of in a dense box canyon that is an obvious trap.
I have to believe some on that GMHS crew beside Steed knew that it was against all good judgement and what is taught concerning box canyons with a raging wild fire below. I know one young man had ranch experience and certainly would have known. One lady said her husband that died there at Yarnell had told her it was an absolute wrong to drop off in box canyons such as he did at Yarnell. This is where Dr. Ted should be talking to these men and paid some thousands to do so because with his bat hides and wild land fire fighting experience of even having saved lives against orders that would have killed, young men would listen.
When you get up and give a line of shit that these men were out to save structures and bunk along with it instead of saying we can not understand how those men all listened to Marsh, et. al., dropped off in a box canyon choke full of manzanita and broke every safety rule beside–you have done one of the worst disservices to the safety of any future wild-land firefighter. You may have even caused by proxy the injury and deaths of some in the future.
I have to applaud DND. He steeped out boldly and his actions will likely be a key to unraveling the mystery of all that killed the GMHS. But more importantly his actions will benefit the safety of future wild land fire fighters. He is a hero in his own rite.
As a citizen and non-wild land fire fighter I have benefited in ways I never thought I would although if I could turn the clock back I would never have wanted to be a part of that tragedy. But who would? That is history we never want repeated and therefore demands some changes and some funds set aside in the thousands to pay for time and expertise from the proven winners–those that kept their men alive and detest lies and deceptions such as the Yarnell incident became. That simple actions though seemingly costly to taxpayer dollars actually would save millions and the horrible grief of seeing more young heroes killed by careless and needless stupidity.
PLEASE SKIP READING THIS IF YOU GET OFFENDED EASY- IT WAS JUST A STEP BY STEP DREAM I HAD—NO OMITTING FOR THE SAKE OF OMITTING- LEAVE THAT FOR THE YH FIRE INVESTIGATION TEAM
I had dreams about Gary and Sonny last night-
They were at one of Sonny’s infamous cowboy campfires and they were comparing life notes of why they prefer their dog over a lady and it was funny because Sonny said he would have to start off saying if he was late home his wife had a revolver waiting but his dog no matter “how late” loved on him and was excited to see him…then some side person at this camp fire with them (rugged mountain man) said he liked his dog over ladies because if he called his dog any other name than his dog’s name his dog licked him but a lady gave him a licking- Sonny chimed in and said I like all my dogs because if I have things scattered about they are okay with me and my area but not the ladies …and Gary chimed in and said my dog had no parents that visited…smirk made…then this rugged man said well I like my dog because if I raise my voice my dog gets it but not the ladies they go into this mood I cannot stand…Sonny said I like a woman you know that is much like my dog where they are ready 24/7 to go in whatever I want to do and then Gary chimed in and said my dog loved me and found me amusing hen I was pissed…the rugged man said hell Sonny and Gary I like my dog because I don’t get asked from my dog that if my dog died am I gonna have another one like ladies do…Then Sonny said well I like my dog because if they get pregnant you can sell the pups at a flea market but not a lady…it causes more problems…oh yeah Sonny the rugged man said when I eat some of your good old cowboy beans and I start to tooting my dogs love it but the ladies they run around spraying that “room spray” chemicals and Sonny said do not get me started on the chemicals…Shit, don’t get me started on the chemicals…let me grab me another chocolate soda (Guiness Stout) and Sonny said it his dog came over and handed him with his mouth a beer…and Sonny smiled and said that is another reason I love my dog…and the rugged man said to Gary well Gary when I scratch my nads my dog looks at me puzzled why I cannot lick them- then we get to why we like our ladies fellas…and Sonny closes and said yeah I like my dog because the more I see my dog he does not get offended that I smell like another dog but man the ladies…come on now…that’s when I have to protect the nads…then Gary could not allow Sonny to have the last word and he says to the fellas yeah but when my dog goes and runs off my dog never left with half my stuff and then some…then all three men toasted to that and watched the fire…
Vivid dream it was…felt real…kinda like the book I am reading Wind Stalker from Owen Irons- wish I owned the book- my chiropractor let me borrow it.
WARNING: Due to Presidential Executive Orders the National Security Agency (NSA) may have read this email without probable cause, warrant, or notice.
What was on my email–so I will post that last email here::Keep dreaming–ha ha. Pretty much the last of me now wouldn’t be any good with cookie cutter types. Slept lot of the day–maybe that long hike two days ago and a fair one yesterday shut me down. Today only a short hike maybe a mile. I am doing them cause I know it is the end if I don’t. My lungs are shot, you would think I smoked all my life. Humid days are harder than dry days–I think those retardant runs we made got me–maybe you but not as bad..
Yeah you are hated by Amanda and a few that love her. But I think in the long run people only pity that woman since most know the truth of what went down to kill those men. Firefighting is dangerous, if the fires don’t kill them the bosses will or the retardant and mad wives will get them. It is a good life to have a few beers if you are the poor bastard on the work line.
Yeah you stepped on a few toes–ouch! Too many liars got lighted up by you. So yes, but you got plenty friends supporting you. I have the shike of Geronimo hanging around–his bull shows up regular now.
It is very wrong in a free society that on a secure E-mail site I get this message: “WARNING: Due to Presidential Executive Orders the National Security Agency (NSA) may have read this email without probable cause, warrant, or notice.” It is obvious that this President wants every private email so there is complete knowledge of our thoughts and opinions and private lives. With this information the government has invaded our privacy–the one thing that changes control of the citizen and his rights to question government to that of the government who can now control the citizen. Certain the government at this time may not be the tyranny but when politics change in time there will be a government that will use and control people like so many slaves with their knowledge of your most intimate and private thoughts.
Since NSA needs no reason at all to invade your private emails, phone calls, etc. you know they already have uploaded every citizens private conversations to their super computers and cloud. That information is now in a bank they can and will use to maintain control, to manipulate public lives and opinions, and to farm out to industry so you can be a target not only for political gain but monetary profit. George Orwell was a bit behind on his date 1985 but not that far either. He knew the plan long before most and if you look at his connections you will know he was even a part of formulating it.
We will make America Great Again–Trumps ways and ideas will be advanced and had Hitler the same resources to the world’s private lives, he would have had no problem taking over the World and finishing off the remnant of Jews. This is sad to see we in America have gone this far allowing our so called “Security” to take away the most basic freedom we have–that of personal privacy.
But the idiots of the world will say, oh but this is a good thing. And you forget that the government was doing such things that were later revealed such as the mind experiments on over a million American Citizens by such things as doping them with LSD without their knowledge. Or did you forget that Ollie North and his gang of CIA were allowing dope into America and even part of it on the pretense that it was to benefit America’s security.
There are people in government that do not trust the public. They want every bit of information they can get their hands on to maintain control. Welcome to the New World Order and Prison Planet Earth. And who ever believed America would remain free (at least to some degree at the private level) and does it matter to anyone as long as Trump can make America Great Again. The masses are screwed now–they have literally lost their minds to the powers that be.
About lining up the Immigrants that are imprisoned from the recent influx from South America for mandatory DNA sampling to be added to the computer banks of the Federal Government.
When will this also be mandatory to American Citizens. My DNA samples are already in the computer bands since I paid for DNA tracing to look at my ancestry. However, if your were a Jew or any other race that suddenly a tyrannical government wanted to extinguish, then all they need do is look at the data base and pull you out for extermination.
Hitler returns in spirit. One of the most devious things could do is sanction mass DNA sampling of those Immigrants. This is one of the most insidious and dangerous actions taken by Trump and his cronies. There may well be a few criminals among the population but it is enough to check criminal records of immigrants then perhaps if found to be felons, take the DNA samples of those few.
People do not realize the dangers lurking against a free society that is already controlled beyond what we saw and still see in communist and fascist governments. Welcome to planet earth, the soon to be globally controlled world where a few direct the lives of the masses according to their whims. America the free, and make America Great Again my ass. Don’t bullshit us Trump–a few of us are wise to the plan.
Despots take any measures to maintain control–legal or illegal . When you see no concern or empathy for individuals or the environment but great concern of putting dollar values on lives then you should take notice. Of course in a way presidential offices have some influence but they are only in office at the mercy of industrial complexes and people that have world influence. When a Rockefeller speaks or any of the industrialists make directives the president listens with a keen ear. After all it is their billions that put these people in office. In ways Trump is not the braggadocio monster he could be because he will be limited in the ways the masses will not see–and of only two choices–either is at the mercy of those who really have the sledge hammer above their head. Still it is fun to see the ballyhoo sort of like watching a foot ball game–screaming for your team yet you really have no power of the outcome. And for all the drama it ends up that the best team is usually the one best financed–the financiers are the actual winners in the final analysis.
The American experiment of the free individual has eroded. It had been a republican experiment.
The concerns these days are pollution and environmental concerning masses and health. Those that have the gold will make the mold. The next 50 years will be the most interesting yet horrifying years to endure unless changes are made. That is highly doubtful.
When we looked at such benign things as FOIA records involving the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew we saw pages of records concerning the tragedy blacked out with the magic markers. We talked to people whose jobs were threatened if they talked. There were official mum orders. We saw Donut, the only survivor of that crew speak with a forked tongue and withhold information he knew despite the grief of loved ones needing resolution and truth. We saw individuals flat out lying to maintain reputations.
How could this be? Joy and I were on that two track and knew the situation–her photos were not needed said the firemen in Prescott–they already knew and had their take on what happened. Their story was already determined by only a few days after the deaths happened–there would be no blame, no fault to anyone-this would be just another wild land fire fighting accident and certainly no mention of the terrible mismanagement of that wild fire that nearly killed a lot of residents of Yarnell as well. It would be a God thing where the good Lord needed those individuals somewhere else, no way would there be the reasons those men were killed due to negligent actions told to the public.
And for Joy and Sonny who did hike there they would be challenged, labeled as kooks and clowns. It is easier to attack the individuals than deal with the facts. But what of all these retired wild land fire fighters who knew safety measures were flaunted and could see that even Donut did not have a clue about safe wild land fire fighting techniques. Why haven’t they been labeled as clowns and kooks? Why have such men as Dr. Ted Putnam been avoided despite his expertise as a smoke jumper of many years and PhD in Psychology ? Are Gary Olson, RTS, Hondo, Woodsman, Norb, Powers, DNA, WTKTT, fire scientists Morrison and Wooten, and others that say there has been an official false presentation to the public of what happened to kill those 19 wild land fire fighters—are these men also kooks and clowns? On the contrary they are heroes who for the most part were in charge of 20men crews or more and upon retirement of 20 years are more left their crews alive and intact.
Wake up America–your tax dollars deserve the truth and truth is the only thing that will change practices allowed that cause deaths to young hero deaths (some as young as 21 on that crew).
Whew, It did rain cats and dogs last night–well dogs at least–I found three huskies, a bulldog and a white German Shepard in my yard this morning –a welcome sight with that many friends to enjoy the day. So I will be inside to take a little more time.
Some had said Joy and Sonny were out to get their 15 minutes of fame in the media. That is funny since we were the ones sought out by the media as well as wild land fire fighters who wanted to hike the route the GMHS took and to see the death site and pay their respects. We had watched them from the fire line and knew exactly how they had hiked, knew most of their actions and even their physical condition as we accessed it as we passed them on the narrow trail they were taking to the fire edge as well as the hours we watched them and the fire advance from the two track near their location. No one could enjoy talking about a tragedy that killed 19 young men–However it became a necessity to talk about what we had seen and what Joy had photographed in over 1500 photos that day.
Channel 5 is coming over to film something about the ordeal of my dog Charlie shooting me in the back with a 12 guage that shattered my clavicle, pierced the right lung, cracked 3 ribs and scattered lead shot about my chest like a star system when seen of X-Ray.
They sought me out and I have no qualms in the truth of what happened nor am I seeking fame as a dummy that allowed his dog to learn how to shoot me–this was however not a planned murder on the part of Charlie. I did die but either Jesus or the expertise of likely a dozen doctors at the only Trauma unit in El Paso, Texas (University Trauma Hospital) were able to bring me back to life. Unlike Lazarus I lay dead only 10 minutes of so and not the three days, but it was my second resurrection from the dead–that first one being the death outside the cardiologist office of the Prescott VA hospital.
For those that worry about dying, the first one was easy except for the excruciating heart pain getting there. And I was not happy waking up since death not a state of anything–no pain, no consciousness of anything. I did not see Jesus, lights or any of the things others report on that one. On the second one I had lost 6 units of blood and plasma–you are dead at 4 or 5–but after a call to my son also a RN of long time experience in truama cases, with his permission I was given blood transfusion and the Lazarus syndrome of life came back.
However on the second death I was in the copter when the second death began to appear. I am hard to kill since I had laid through this on that desert floor for over 30 minutes with a gaping hole in my back bleading profusely from the 12 guage hole in my back, one that would take over three months to close and require my living 24-7 attached to a wound vac.
Unlike the first death, I started going down a tunnel and I did not want to go. There were musical sounds and a neon rainbow colored polygon with rounded edges the shape of that strange ford pickup window. I felt like I was traveling at the speed of light. But then I suppose I went bland and I was not conscious of how long–My son said I was out for three days and it cost him $140 in coffee and donuts to people attending me–He was overseeing and had taken off from his job to see if I might make it.
I have and am back and believe me I do not worry about something as petty as trying to get famous because my dog shot me. If it will add to the entertainment of people, maybe make they more cautious of letting their dog learn how to shoot or keeping the gun away from their availability and add to the enjoyment of their lives then I will gladly go for it and no fees expected just as we did on the Yarnell tragedy.,
Life is too short to deal in anything but truth–Cheers, may our journeys be happy.
Blood level 15 mcg/dL Lead. That is three times maximum the allowable level of <5 mcg/dL. Charlie may kill me yet from lead poisoning. The doctor said it however is not enough to cause him to recommend chelation or have too much concern. He says it is likely other causes for my complaints.
Good thing I am not a developing child–that amount of lead in the blood would lead to my being a idiot–something a few have dubbed me anyway. Oddly I must have never gotten lead poison as a child since working on my masters in Clinical Psychology I could easly muster A's and B's. I did IQ once at 120 which is some above retardant but my son Ted IQ was above 140 at mensa level. He was doing straight A work in Chemical Engineering when he passed. None of my kids are idiots and true to my personality they generally avoid publicity. My daughter has been a manger in finance matters and has done so well that even Trump would label her as a winner. He only labels those in the multi million dollar class as winners–
I am ordering a TeePee–Plains Indian Style–whew from Underground Uranium and hard rock tramp miner back to the earth again. We do what we enjoyed most–I think as a youngster in those Burro Mountains living in a tent but with little subsistence and having to live off the wild lands has a hold on me. The old way of the Indian and my years of pioneering with Joy are fond memories of being close to nature. I have a great respect for wild life and animals.
The one ceremony I attended by invitation was with a Laguna Indian Friend named Stanley on off times at the SOHIO Uranium Mines made me understand how much the Indian respects nature and the environment. There were thanks given to the Deer who provided the meat that he would give life to us through his life sacrifice. That was something I had never done when I had killed a deer for its venison. We can learn from those most humble and appreciative of life and the planet.
correction >5 mcg lead blood level allowable–I got that less than sign reversed. Just do not get lead in your blood–very poison and does give problems to health
For those who do want to know the test is used to measure water content of lead mainly–few people need it. In fact the doctor at the VA, a Hematologist had to look up lead poisoning symptoms and remedies–it is just a very rare situation that doctors deal with.
> = greater than < = less than, but most know that so why am I explaining?
I had read this and remembered how labored Amanda was to keep people away from the death site even to the point of attempting to purchase the property so private access could be made according to her ideas.
Now it is a public access with even a parking lot that cost near a million to build and a trail that many young volunteers built to get to the site. However already they have air lifted one out for the difficult hike of climbing the West side of the Weavers from that parking lot.
It would have been cheaper to have spent a million to buy a private property access into the place–In fact from the east side it is a short maybe half mile hike past the helms ranch and a gravel road right to the fence–then the elderly and the handicapped could go right there and pay their respects rather than risk heart attack, heat stroke, rattlesnakes, fall injuries and so forth. Leave the long hard trail to the young and the hardy–but it makes me think people think that plan these things –are they educated? God keep you and me from that University.
Correction–Learned today from Mark and this filming it was two hours before they could contact Mark to get permission for blood transfusions–they must have slipped something in in the meantime–I mean you can’t lie bone dry of blood for two hours or maybe you can with the new medical technology. Shit they can screw with DNA and clone you and even put a dog’s head on a Buffalo. Science has advanced to such a high degree–yet in a hundred years they still can not cure cancer. That one has them stymied.
About redactions and the quest to understand them. Redactions that I refer to are the pages and pages of actions at Yarnell that were blacked out concerning pertinent facts concerning the death of the 19.
Of course wild land fire fighting actions have nothing to do with national security but individual security and safety is highly dependent upon facts. Contrary to blacking out information about what killed the 19 or any wild land fire fighter, it should be mandatory to give all facts, presentations, testimony and so forth so that men of integrity can evaluate precisely why the deaths occurred. But we saw the pages of black outs, mum orders and threats, misinformation and blatant lies and even removal and editing of film to what one would have to believe was the ultimate in making a sow’s ear into a silk purse.
Well I was watching a documentary on UFO’s. A topic if you happened to have seen one and talk about it will give you the kook label in a hurry. I have seen them, Joy has actual photos of them shooting green lasers out and another with the mother ship surrounded by small craft. So give me the kook label–this will help David and the Amanda bunch that already have their opinions made up.
However I do believe they are government experiments–the photos were near Las Vegas and of course the famous Area 51 where one engineer said he saw flying saucers being put together. Hitler was doing them–we did get the plans for their anti-gravity machines–but of course if the government had such things then it would be even more top secret than the F-15 was for more than ten years.
So Stanley Friedman–nuclear physicist and aerospace scientist believes in these things as do many people of PhD status including a number of medical doctors. Even President Jimmy Carter had filed a report when he and ten others had seen a UFO–something of public record and not to many thought him to be a nut. But Stanley had used the FOIA to get reports on certain UFO reports and in the documentary holds them up with several complete pages blacked out.
I thought what the hell is so secret about UFO sightings that the government has to black out pages–and then I thought of all those FOIA’s about the Yarnell fire that Joy had ordered and so much was blacked out. Obviously it is a way to keep the public from knowing the facts and even in such non-security issues as UFO sightings and Wild Land Fires. Shit and we put up with it but how can you challenge the government–That is the mouse trying to screw the elephant. it ain’t gonna happen.
So we wind up relying on testimony and truth found through what we can glean and the testimony of people willing to tell what they did witness. I would exclude Donut on that since we know he never gave dependable information–but there are many men of integrity that speak about it, and what we know at this point is that the real and true story is still some incomplete.
It would have been easier on the fire gods had they told the truth from the beginning–and even the survivor had that duty. But seems that at least here on IM people are not willing to end it until it is all revealed. And that is the right thing to do.
Oh, I should add there is one photo of a dragon we could not see as Joy took a photo of the moon, yet appeared on the film. I can only say it must have appeared and disappeared so quickly that only the shutter speed could catch it because it was quite huge. I can’t explain that one–it is on the film–but it was there. Maybe Joy will someday put those photos on her blog.
Before I retire for the night, a better explanation for the deaths of the men (and the insanity of Marsh ordering them into a box canyon) that Willis gave that God had other plans for these men would be an alien abduction thing But on second thought stupidity overrides that even.
Joy did say there was a huge boulder in a pre-fire photo that in an after fire photo was missing. Remember she had taken about 1500 photos that day before the fire on that mountain. Where did that boulder go–well we do have copters that can remove big boulders or maybe it rolled down the mountain.
there is a video of that boulder on highway 89 on a boulder rock trailer Sonny so there is documentation where it vanished to-
I thought your weren’t paying attention Joy. Glad that mystery was solved and you posted–I was beginning to think those Yarnellites that belive there are aliens encapsulated inside those granite boulders waiting to be releases might have substance. Can you imagine an alien getting heated inside one of those boulders and bursting out–instead he finds himself being transported to someone’s front Yard–could it be traced to see if it is a politician’s delight?
Sonny said_ I thought what the hell is so secret about UFO sightings that the government has to black out pages–and then I thought of all those FOIA’s about the Yarnell fire that Joy had ordered and so much was blacked out.
My reply- Yes much was blacked out but since I was there and these people who gave me the documents do not “get that” I knew the blacked out areas so all it did was show the lack of transparency and I am really solid and confident and maybe those spur road folks sooner than later gain that same level of strength and tell their accounts … the sad part there is just too many “ok” at sleeping at night … yet soooooo looking forward to reading the MacLean Book to-be especially with Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair – really am… It will tell me who got “real” and who did not … I have pondered for awhile if I should place Alan’s pic on my page from that time because man for empathy reasons I have not due to his face says alot …so yeah looking forward to their book – when is it due out? I look forward to his real account or will he too play the role as so many others are doing-
Who was that person anyways who got kicked by a firefighter boot? Just curious … would he know? or is that just possibly you “JC” ??? I mean how many days and years have to go by???
Well…in addition to my best friend and Jeeping buddy who I lost some time back and you all know by her fierce reputation, (as a reminder, she jumped out of the back of our Jeep, off our sleeping platform and into the pitch black night to engage two raccoons who had broken the perimeter that existed only in her mind. It could have been two velociraptors, Una didn’t care. She was one bloody mess by the time I managed to break up that death match. She had the heart of a Lioness, but the teeth and jaws of a Yorkie mix) dear X wife had a chocolate Lab I found for her in Florida for us to adopt about 5 years ago because I always wanted a chocolate Lab and her second Golden Retriever had died. It’s been almost exactly one year (in less than one week) since the last time I saw Barkley and my dear X wife. I sure do miss that dog!
And FYI, Una was a rescue dog. So don’t hate me too much for the three thousand dollar Lab who had to be flown in from Florida. I do have a social conscience that I didn’t even know I had until I got old and started caring about other people.
And Joy did get her Special Edition Challenge Coins for her and her posse designed by yours truly. She also received lots of matching patches (there are three different ones) so if you see her, ask her for one of each.
Downhill Direct had the same offer, but he never sent me his address, I don’t think he trusts me? Maybe it’s because RTS accused me of being a student of Machiavelli several years ago on this thread.
That’s why I was so happy when he also accused me of being a student of Sun Tzu, (The Art of War).
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/202800-appear-weak-when-you-are-strong-and-strong-when-you.
That was a big step in the right direction as far as I was concerned.
I have always been so misunderstood. Well…maybe not always? Sometimes I was exactly what people thought I was. Say…have you ever heard the fable about the scorpion and the frog?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog
😎
Oh and one more thing. I didn’t pick a Yokie mix to be my dog. I didn’t even want a dog. Una picked me and she was persistent.
Agree on the Lab–could not be a finer dog faithful to their master. I miss Diamond –amazing dogs and if someone decides to own a dog, Labs won’t disappoint
Reviewed some of the Staff rides Joy posted about on her Blog. A real joke. All at least the Yarnell ride does, if it is any example of staff rides, is to further the lie about what really happened at Yarnell. You know the poor little or maybe big Ranger that attends people at the parking lot to make the hike up the way we escaped the fire does the same. She/he likely does not know a different story and parrots what she/he is told happened. But those Staff Ride Stiffs are men who do know.
Ain’t it sad people can’t be like Gary and just give us the cold bare facts and let us deal with them. That pussy footing around only keeps people sick. We need the facts so we can work though the horror of how those young heroes were outright victims of negligent homicide.
As bold as wild land fire fighters are I wonder why so many are timid at telling the truth. Their should be yelling from the truth from the top of their lungs on this one–19 brothers killed needlessly in the worse possible tragedy and for the worse possible negligence in the history of wild land fire fighting death incidences.
Living a lie is a sickness that can only be cured by telling the truth.
Clarification;
1. I agree Sonny. I don’t think a Lab will ever disappoint. But on the other hand, (I used to work with a guy for years who only had one hand and whenever I used that time honored catch phrase around him, he would always interrupt me and say, “But I don’t have another hand.,’ Anyway: he broke me of suckin’ eggs when it came to using that automatic phrase whenever he was around.) Una never disappointed me either. Except maybe whenever I had to get us out of trouble because she wrote a lot of checks with her attitude that her teeth and jaws couldn’t cash. So…it’s probably safe to say, “Unlike most people, most dogs don’t disappoint” and I finally understand another common catch phrase I used to say before I became the people person and humanitarian I have evolved into today. “Fuck you…if you want a friend, buy a dog. But I’m going to do my job even if it is over your dead body….so choose wisely asshole.”
2. Joy didn’t tell me that she has a “posse” or who is in it, but I did tell her who I thought was in it so these are the ones who have a very rare unique and special Challenge Coin coming from Joy in no particular order. Her posse started a tradition to meet at the deployment site once a year a try to figure out how the fuck an entire hotshot crew was burned to death even with their command structure intact and functioning as it was designed to operate. Which was a horrific event that none of us thought was even possible right up to the minute it happened and became our previously unimaginable reality.
2a. So here are the names I came with; Sonny, RTS, Ted, Norb and JD. I also think Bob P. should have one even if he was on an R-5 hotshot crew, but he has to email me his address in Bumfuck Idaho. It’s Santa his fault, not everyone can be on an R-3 hotshot crew. The fire gods in their wisdom made R-3 hotshot crews and then they made the rest. Even if they had to start with hotshot crews in on the Angeles and Cleveland National Forests in the Cradle of Hotshot Civilization…SoCal in 1947-48. They must have wanted to get most of their mistakes out of the way right off the bat (another time honored phrase, that started…why? Off what bat? WTF…Over?) You know…my attitude about other hotshot crews isn’t my fault. I have told you several times how the fire gods created hotshots in their image…as assholes who play a zero sum game. What one hotshot crew gains…another one has to lose. That is why there never was a hotshot brotherhood. Just bunch of crews all trying to advance their position in the food chain at the expense of every other crew. Like I have also said, even the Flagstaff, Mormon Lake and Blue Ridge Hotshots weren’t our Brothers-in-Arms, Buck was only happy when we were trying to outdo all of the other crews to earn his love and affection. I now think that was one fucked up culture and ultimately…unhealthy. But…you can’t teach an old dog new tricks, so next to the Happy Jack Hotshots of Legend and the Santa Fe Hotshots of today, all other hotshot crews, you know…suck. Although all R-3 hotshot crews suck less than the others do and R-5 hotshot crews suck the most. Hey, I didn’t make this stuff up…it’s what I was taught.
3. I would actually like to give everyone who has supported this blog either by direct participation or by faithfully reading it a Challenge Coin because this…is the Official Court Of Record for the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster. But…that just isn’t possible because only 50 Special Edition Challenge Coins were ever made and none will ever be made again. 50 was the minimum order and I wanted to see how l liked then before I ordered anymore and that never happened. Which by the way, put the per unit cost if those coins very high since the dies and set up fees could only be spread out between 50. I should have ordered one million and then each coin would have been relatively inexpensive. Too late now.
4. If you don’t know the history of Challenge Coins, it’s worth reading about. They say Special Forces (Green Beret) coins are numbered and whoever has the lowest number at a chance meeting…has to buy the drinks. I do know numbering coins sequentially would really be expensive.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin
Here is my distribution list of my Special Edition WLF Challenge Coins to date;
1. 19 GMIHC families
2. Sad Sack
3. Ed Hollenshead
4. Darrell Willis
5. Two former squad bosses that I still have regular contact with
6. My dear X wife
7. My Very Special Lady Friend
8. And now Joy has seven of them
9. I am keeping one with Downhill Direct’s name on it just in case he changes his mind
10. And a few to other current and former WLF friends
11. And one of my very few remaining coins has Bob P’s name on it.
12. I would really like to send one to WTKTT, but he would have to violate his Prime Directive (other than to lay the ground work for the eventual domination of our world and to enslave a deeply flawed species who is doing everything they can to make themselves extinct in record time, just as soon as he learns how to self replicate) and reveal his true identity other than his chosen nom de guerre of, Wants To Know The Truth, or the one I chose for him…HAL 9000.
5. When I started my latest sabbatical, I said I had done all I could for “the memory of the crew” and it was up to others now. I was specifically referring to those who know what else happened on what is now the worst day in hotshot history…by a factor of X. And that is because I don’t think we know everything even after more than 6 years. I am still technically on sabbatical trying to get my lung function under better control to make my Very Special Lady Friend happier, get some Jeepin’ done, all while I engage my greatest adversary in life. A blank Word page with a blinking cursor that mocks me as I try work on…all together now, the Greatest Books about WLF in history, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” and “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters.” Good thing I am focused like a laser ligh…Oh look, there goes another white car! But…I just couldn’t resist commenting on Joy’s dream…and dogs, specifically my dog. Because Una will always be my dog. “There is a meadow on the other side of the mountain, I will meet her there.” as quoted by G. Olson, C. 2019. Does anybody else think Joy had a very weird dream? Joy is the only person I know who dreams in complete sentences and can quote them. My dreams are usually just various kaleidoscopic views of darkness that make less sense than, “A Clockwork Orange.” Just kidding…I don’t want anyone to think I need ANOTHER Fitness For Duty Psychiatric Examination. I aced two of them during my 18 years as a Special Agent. The teams of psychiatrists and psychologists who examined me (just try taking one of those several thousand question tests that ask the same tricky questions over and over again in different ways so you can’t remember how you lied and as a result, you are forced to admit the truth…twice) concluded I was a normal and rational person who was simply trying to function in an ABNORMAL and IRRATIONAL environment…working for the BLM in Law Enforcement. Say…Am I only the only one who thinks no one else besides Americans should be allowed to make movies…especially the British?
6. Okay, I’m going back on sabbatical starting right…now! 😎
Oh…and one more thing. I am being dead serious when I say that when I was a GS-0462-Forestry Technician, I always colored inside the lines. The system rewards the bold who color in bright colors right up to the very edges of the lines, but it punishes those who scribble outside the lines.
And yes…I also always said that. “I bleed green.” just like Bob P. still says today. I also carried water for the fire gods.
But…when the U.S. Forest Service Family tried to abort me and then I went to work for a Continuing Criminal Enterprise, (BLM top managers and NOT the rank and file) they taught me how to make managers get a thousand-yard-stare whenever they fucked with me.
But….that is all water under the bridge that we can laugh about now. Hahaha!
Clarification.
When I use the phrase, “The System”, I am specifically referring to U.S. Forest Service FIRE back in my day. I don’t know how it is today, or how other agencies function.
And as I asking keep writing, my experience on the line was actually very narrow and specific to theses three areas.
1. Hotshot crew member.
2. Hotshot squad boss.
3. Hotshot crew boss.
I can’t speak for anyone else. And in fact, I can only tell you how it was from 1975 through 1984 in the USFS, Region 3, on the Coconino and Santa Fe National Forests.
I spent my entire very short career time on the Prescott trying to figure out who was on first.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg
Although I did learn about hotshot crews that season the same way most people learn about hotshots. And that was when a fire was looking like it might go-to-hell-in-a-hand-basket somewhere.
A group of us Walnut Creek techs were standing around talking about it and one of them said in awe, “Maybe they will have to send the Prescott Hotshots?” And the other techs solemnly nodded in agreement.
So of course I asked, “What is a Prescott Hotshot?” And then the group took great pleasure in enlightening me.
And all I could think of was, “Why the fuck would anyone want to be a hotshot?” as I stood there in my nice clean U.S. Forest Service uniform that came with a badge?
Gary-Your experiences are so valuable to the understanding of wild land fire fighting and the “system” that as it is presented could only improve. It appears to be on rock bottom at the present with so much lies, redactions, mum orders and obvious skirting any truths that might make changes.
The Fire Gods forget that it is public tax dollars supporting their work-you are public servants–A servant must be true to his master and the public has not seen that in too many of these needless deaths of the young heroes you command.
Okay…okay, here’s one more True Story because it’s True Story Time.
As I have written, my first job with the U.S. Forest Service was on the now defunct Walnut Creek Ranger Station. The actual Ranger Station (administrative headquarters) was actually located in Prescott, but they had two work centers where most of the 462’s worked out of and even lived during their work week in shabby old rejected FEMA trailers at the Camp Wood Work Center.
The other work center was at the very old Walnut Creek Station. Both had fire caches in old barns and a collection of outer buildings, barns and corrals for both riding and pack horses. The USFS back in my day loved horses that had been a primary means of transportation since Gifford Pinchot founded the Forest Service in 1905. I was lucky enough to work for them before ATV or Side by Sides were invented and to fight fire on the Gifford Pinchot…several times.
There were even horse corrals and stables next to the Santa Fe Hotshot Headquarters in the middle of Santa Fe. I have a great photo of my hijita (loving daughter) feeding the horses with my mother who was visiting when she was about two years old. I was buddies with the District Range Con (we were deer hunting buddies etc.) and I often fed them on the weekends when he was out of town. Pack horses were actually used to supply the lookout tower during the fire season on on the Walnut Creek District and damn…I can’t remember the name of the lookout tower. I will have to get back to you on that one. I want to say Hutch Mountain but that was one of our towers on the Long Valley District on the Mighty Coke.
The Walnut Creek Station had a bunch of old buildings (cabins) that were all stained U.S. Forest Service old building reddish dark brown that looked like they should be U.S. Forest Service buildings instead of rejected FEMA trailers that included an office, a training center (a big cabin that had a big room) which all had old rock fireplaces. I didn’t know at the time just how special those buildings were because they are all gone now and have been for decades. Bulldozed, burned down or demolished by a bunch of crazed 462’s? Probably because they cost too much to maintain and somebody deemed them no longer needed to accomplish the mission of the new U.S Forest Service.
I lived and worked out out of one of the rejected and surplus FEMA trailer at Camp Wood that doubled as a tech bunkhouse because most of my patrol area was to the west and north of there towards the Seligman. Seligman is a classic Arizona shit hole Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe railroad town the Mother Road went through the middle of but I-40 bypassed with nothing more important in the entire town than the Black Cat Bar. Another tech and I went with Bob Short to Seligman one night because that was just how boring it was at Camp Wood.
And Bob drank the case of beer he had bought at the Black Cat all of the way back to Camp Wood until he finally ran off the road and hit a big tree with his pickup truck while chucking the empties out of his open window in classic Forestry Technician style. I think that is last guy in the photo I put on my now defunct website wearing the cowboy hat. Good thing the road at that point was really in bad shape, so he wasn’t going very fast because of course none of us were wearing seat belts much less shoulder harnesses and his busted up POS truck was still drivable by…Bob Short of course.
http://ourfiregods.com/CampWood.html
Bingo…I have now remembered everybody’s name in that photo even though I can’t remember what I did yesterday.
Forgive…I digress. So…back to the true story. On my first day of work I showed up at the District Ranger Office in Prescott in my brand new U.S. Forest Service uniform I had already ordered, and they gave me my badge, the keys to a four wheel drive truck, instructions on how to find Camp Wood and a pack set radio to communicate with who; I was unsure of since I was afraid to touch the damn thing because I didn’t have the slightest idea how to operate it.
Side True Story…I used to go to movies in downtown Santa Fe carrying a pack set radio when I was on call from the dispatch office and I was usually on call. If you have ever seen an old pack set radio…you would know just how ridiculous that must have looked, but it was the old days and nobody seemed to notice or care. They probably thought I was a Bag Pipe Blowin’ Round Hat and so they automatically loved and respected me.
Anyway…on the way out to Camp Wood the pack set got jostled somehow and started making one the most most awful sounds I had ever heard…really loudly. I was still afraid to touch it and so I listened to that noise all of the way to Camp Wood (about a two hour drive). All I had to do was to adjust the squelch knob…which sounds pretty easy unless you don’t know what squelch is, that there is a squelch nob, or that you can adjust it and you are afraid to even touch the pack set because you don’t want to be accused of breaking it and then have to pay for it. I was a very slow beginner as a Forestry Tech.
I also clearly remember attending my fire training in that big cabin training room with the rock fireplace that was probably built by the CCC’s and being told that in order to stop the fire, I would be required to construct a fire line down to mineral soil that was at least one and a half times wider than the tallest fuel that it was burning.
I just sat there thinking about the mature Ponderosa Pines I was surrounded by and I was sure glad I was a Fire Prevention Technician and only technically a firefighter of last resort. Because damn….that was going to have to be one wide fire line I didn’t want to have to cut. I don’t know how many months if ever…it took me that season to figure out the instructors weren’t referring to the trees, but to the ground fuel underneath the trees. Like I said…I was a pretty slow beginner as a Forestry Technician.
Oh…and I finally figured out what that rack is of what I thought were various flavored single cup coffee mixes that are always in the frame behind President Trump whenever he is being interviewed sitting at the Resolute desk. They are Challenge Coins.
And when we finally meet Sonny and Joy, I have every expectation you both will slap down your Challenge Coins on the bar and whichever one of us doesn’t have theirs in their pocket for immediate display and to tap on the bar…they have to buy until we are drunk enough to drive off the road and hit a big tree…in slow motion classic Forestry Tech style where nobody gets hurt.
It is sometimes wise to examine the Psychiatrist or Psychologist. Many of them took up the role because they were sickos themselves. Suicide is excessive among them. Some of them are actually good people–and you can pick them out intuitively. But most want to drug you up–well maybe the brain is low on lithium but generally it is stressors and finding the root is the way for a permanent cure. A little dope can relieve–even pot–but once the smoke clears from the mind the problem likely will return unless they use the old method of stirring the brain with needles inserted thought the eye sockets or else by burning the brain with 600V jolts until the zombie state appears. No shit little beaver–this is modern science, but chemicals are the preferred brain fixer these days.
Sometimes the bartender makes a better psychologist if he/she will listen–it is a hell of a lot cheaper unless you get a DWI. Well Brandon Donut is keen on chemistry about like he was on fire fighting–doping and drinking. Maybe a little psychiatry can get him on legal dope. His group therapy is always a good thing–he might even start telling the truth there. A clean conscience can help the psyche oodles.
Don’t you just love the merry go round of life? As Gary says, six year and we still don’t have all the facts about the worst fire fighting negligent homicide case ever. Nothing like keeping the Americans in suspense–and what keeps us coming here at least to a large degree.
That and the wise sayings of WTKTT, Gary, Ted, Joy, RTS, Woodsman, JD, Norb, DND, Powers, and forgive me for my short but aged memory cell for not listing them all–well Bill and those good Canadians that exhale the fresher air. Maybe we think Donut would post here or even Amanda–I did not mean to forget Holly=she has had some good input-output as well. It takes some fortitude to post here since BS will be spotted quickly.
Well I had forgotten to mention, Dr. Ted Putnam has a good solution and being the pro he is you can count on his advice. He would suggest meditation–a good stilling of the mind and elimination of thought intrusion so the subconscious can work on the problems which is very effective.
I would suggest if you are Catholic, hit the confessional stand–unload those sins, but you might have a Priest that needs to confess himself. I don’t like confessing to the devil but who knows any type confession might be good. The devil likely would not want to hear you confessing your sins especially if you intend to keep a clean slate after. You might want to add meditation as well. Forget positive thinking–thinking is the problem–you need calmness of mind and truth–well the know thyself type truth.
Other than that try Joy’s hiking therapy. It is called putting one foot in front of the other for some distance. That adds strength, deep breathing and healthier attitudes–some have even lost many pounds of excess fat–a much better way of loosing fat than a divorce.
To live alone and not be lonely is hard–you would need a good inventory of yourself enough that you can love life and are fine with live and let live. It is best to have a mate since married people live longer–and if not a mate then a pet and having both is even better. But of course get a mate and pet that are compatible–some of us that is about one in a million.
None of us get out of this world alive but we ought to make the best of what we are allowed. Love life and do some good things –tell the truth since it will reward with good karma.
I did the Joy thing today–full 10 miles the weather was cool and Maya (Whitey) my white coyote was along to encourage me. She chased at least three rabbits and has yet to catch one. She wasn’t staggering like me when we got back to camp but she headed right to my cow tank and dove right in.
Geronimo the bull was inside my fence cropping the grass. I don’t know if he opened the gate and made his way in but I walked him out–he rubbed against a big yucca tree and it went down–that fellow is strong–broke it off right at the root. I wouldn’t mind him but he also rubbed against one of my small Cherry tries and it went down too broken off about two foot above ground but maybe a tiny sprout will recover it –yet it was about 10 ft high. Maybe he is part George Washington –Cherry tree killer.
I have the Brits coming with their film for TV over there. I am going to try to direct their attention to Yarnell and the 19. We will see there are many lives there and all much more important than my own story. I have always considered myself only a bystander and in so many ways if I could turn it back would not ever have gotten involved and never taken the trip. On the other hand I can say well had I not then who knows what would have happened with Joy–she was determined to go whether I went or not. Those days I hated getting up at 3 in the morning, now sometimes I am up even after that 10 mile hike.
Well I do have chest pains from it on the left side==but that is a given after those heart stints and plenty of lead shot–an ounce scattered about in my chest cavity. Maybe between the stainless steel heart stints and the lead I am getting a chemical reaction like a battery. My body tests acid so I take baking soda for acid –kills that burning quick but you have a battery either way.
See they wanted me to do at least 3 weeks therapy in a hospital after I got myself out. Well they move your arm around and have you blowing through a plastic thing lifting a plastic bobber. But hiking is deep breathing and physical movement of the arms.
And if you breathed in enough retardant as Joy and I did on those hikes then add a shot up lung and shattered clavicle and cracked ribs then therapy does not help–you are pretty much wrecked. Just consider another day a plus. But I am a lucky one since so many of those elderly there are either on their death bed or dead. I don’t know if dying fast in a fire is easier than the slow deaths by cancer and heart attack, etc. Being dead once you are there is not so bad–I can speak to that with authority–and I do have the bat hide in Psychology then religion for more–so if that really means anything. And no I have not had a lobotomy such as I described where sharp probes are incerted in the eye sockets and used to stir the frontal lobe of the brain. Dr. Putnam can tell you more–and it would require a Psychiatrist to do that or prescribe dope as well.
There were and likely still are a number of Psychologists and Psychiatrists working for the CIA–and they did do some extreme experiments on humans–some that in my mind were right along with the Dr. Mengela Nazi experiments. But then somehow there is always the excuse that what they did was for the protection and benefit of America–keep it great or make it great again–whichever slogan suits the situation best..
I should be more trusting of Doctors–they have saved my life more than once, even twice and revived from the dead as well –those were good ones. But it is wise to look into a doctors work history–a few have a record of dead patients above the norm–sort of like how too many died in Yarnell after the retardant dumps. Not all are at their best and Joy can testify to some bad situations there. But I think likely the luck of the draw is hopefully above 80%.
Medicine like the retardant business is into the dollar market big. Even with 20 per cent plans people are finding themselves so deep in debt they are loosing their homes. And for some reason there has been almost a 100 years at Cancer Drives and cancer only increases in the population. Cures are pretty deadly as well with many doctors saying they would not do the kemo themselves. But who knows what you would do if you were on your death bed and wanted a little more time?
Would I go back to mining if I were capable? Likely but not Uranium and with hearing protection instead of the old days when it wasn’t part of the game. Would I log again–that too I would do. Would I cow boy–only if I had my own cattle and spread. But probably not since I never liked killing animals and still do not though I do kill rabbits occasionally for the dogs. I gave up meat eating to almost totally but I am not against it. Would I take on a wildland fire fighting job–I would if I were younger yet I would be damn sure of my boss and would be one to walk away from a killer situation which means I would have a short history in that line of work.
Be safe, follow your love of life and what you do that you may live long and happy.
Sonny,
I have been in Santa Fe-
I met some old Grants NM miners yesterday –
when I am near an able place I will email you a man who may know you-
They are way old timers and they knew about Gary’s father and said many of men died in that mine noone even knows about – “tramp miners”
you are lucky to be alive, Sonny the way they report the treatment you all saw-
they said it was a daily war no woman could ever get-
I was at a wealthy type ranch yesterday – a kind of place only seen in movies – and I walked the area and if I ever participate in this firefighting role – I need to bring more tools along and not a pulaski or fire shelter.
Anyways- still in recovery stage and if my site emailed me I am not able to get on there anytime soon to get to it.
Just a pop in to let you know Sonny I am still breathing
I think it is breathing
it is for sure one foot in front of the other
I tried posting under my name
let me try your id input but mine just goes into moderation so this is Joy but may show under Charlie-
give it a try
one more attempt
It kinda sounded like RTS was on a roll for a while working himself up to telling the rest of us what happened, but then he went silent again? Maybe he will come back and give it another shot?
Back in the day…he was the rebel and I was the conformist. Now I’m not sure who is who anymore? Actually…I’m pretty sure neither one of us are conformists.
And yes…a time honored dirty trick of management for law enforcement people who get out of line is to pull their creds, take their guns and send them to shrinks for Fitness For Duty Psyhiatuc Evaluations.
They did it twice to me because the Continuing Criminal Enterprise that is BLM manage reasoned that I MUST have been crazy to talk to them like I did?
But…I kept acing all of the written tests and actual psychiatric examinations by a two person team that included a psychiatrist and a psychologist…twice.
And then I got my creds and guns back both times and then I got to tell them I was the only person I knew who worked for the BLM who had been certified in writing by mental health professionals to be SANE…twice.
If anybody is curious why the BLM managers are in a class all by themselves compared to their nearest sister agencies, the National Park Service and the U.S. Forest Service, here’s why.
Both of those agencies have long and proud histories of fulfilling the missions on behalf of the American people as those missions were envisioned by the visionaries and politicians who created them, whether you hate them or love them. They both have over 100 years of tradition, history, culture and a strong ethical ethos.
And in the case of the NPS, their primary mission was to take responsibility for all of our “National Jewels” like Yosemite, the Grand Canyon, Sequoia-Kings Canyon, Yellowstone, the Olympic National Park, Mt Rainier etc. and lots of other things like the Liberty Bell, Ellis Island and hundreds of miscellaneous things nobody really cares about while being led by men like John Muir in the name of PRESERVATION policies and staffed by professionals who got college degrees in whatever they get college degrees in, but almost all of them are dedicated idealists who care about what they do.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir
And in the case of the U.S. Forest Service, they were created by visionaries to manage our vast expanses of great western forests to meet the needs of a growing nation who needed wood for almost everything for then and for the future generations in the name of MULTIPLE USE policies, which of course environments hate because they cut down too many trees and business interests hate because they don’t cut down enough trees.
And since nobody is ever happy with the job the USFS is doing, it probably means they are doing their jobs about right led by men like Gifford Pinchot and staffed by professionals who got college degrees in Forestry etc. but almost all of them are dedicated pragmatics who care about what they do.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifford_Pinchot
The BLM on the other hand, has NONE of that going for them. The politicians and special interest groups took all federal land that was left over that weren’t either great National Parks or National Forests that had been land the General Land Office couldn’t even give away back in the day.
They that land together with everything managed by some bastard federal agency nobody has ever heard of, the Taylor Grazing Service, and every other section of land that wasn’t given to the railroads to pay them for building the Transcontinental Railroad and you know…ultimately driving the Golden Spike somewhere in Bumfuck, Utah.
Hence the “checkerboard” appearance of millions of acres of BLM managed land that was “one for me” (the railroads) and “one for you” (the ranchers, miners, utility companies, oil and natural gas companies etc.) and every other special interest group who has gotten filthy rich from raping the land and ripping off the taxpayers for decades now.
And as a result, the BLM now manages more land than all other federal agencies put together by a Factor of X because they also manage all oil, gas and minerals owned by the federal government and that on Indian Reservations (on behalf of the tribes) as well. And land that was once worthless and could only be loved by God and the BLM…is now PRICELESS in every respect including almost the ENTIRE state of Alaska.
All of that wouldn’t have been so bad, but the corrupt, bought and paid for politicians and the special interest groups staffed almost all top BLM managers from the very industries they were supposed to be regulating. People who were oil executives one day, became BLM State Directors the next day. Mining company executives one day, became the BLM Washington Staff the next day and their job was to give away the candy store…no questions asked until they went back to their industry jobs and the next wave of thieves, grifters, con artists stepped in to continue their criminal enterprise.
And so virtually NO MANAGERS were either college educated professionals who came up through the ranks and were either idealists or pragmatics. They were all just criminals ripping off the tax payers YOU PEOPLE and me.
It was an incestuous and filthy dirty relationship between corrupt politicians, all of them including both Democrats and Republicans, special interest groups and private industries who the corrupt oligarchs of Russia have nothing on.
Oh…and by the way…it’s always bad, but the Trump Administration has managed to take the wholesale rape of America to entirely new and previously unheard of levels of greed and corruption.
How can they get away with it? It’s because YOU PEOPLE don’t either know or care about the more than 200 million acres of BLM land you own and should be benefitting from. You only know and care about your National Parks and National Forests, which are doing pretty good because the FOXES WEREN’T PUT IN CHARGE OF THOSE HEN HOUSES.
The only thing that will ever change the cancerous ethos that has been created and developed unchecked over the preceding decades to manage the BLM is if the Attorney General Bill Barr and President Trump, or those who replace them, eventually…be it either Democrat or Republicans would round almost all BLM managers up and charge all of them with RICO and send them to prison so the few professionals they do employ could have a fighting chance to hit the reset button with what is probably the most corrupt agency in the federal government.
And NONE of that is going to happen because the very worst offenders, are all of the WESTERN Senators and Congressman who legislate the BLM to sell your resources for pennies on the dollar in exchange for pennies on the dollar to their re-election campaigns from the special interest groups because YOU PEOPLE don’t have the slightest idea just how bad it really is and what’s more…you really don’t care enough to find out.
For example…here is a current one to watch…if you care?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_Mine
Oh…and one more thing. They started the party by forcing me to sign an undated letter of resignation under threat they would fire me if I didn’t.
And so before they could use the resignation letter I signed under duress, I filed a Whistleblower Complaint (a book) with the USDI Office of Inspector General which triggered a massive investigation of them, which none of them survived, but it took several years.
That gave me formal protection from direct retaliation under the Whistle Blower Protection Act and so they tried back door tricks like the psychiatrist Fitness For Duty Evaluations, and I was targeted by 6 internal investigations by special agents from outside agencies, But…I was cleared by every one of them and never even had one day of leave without pay.
I showed up for work one morning and I had my badge, credentials and guns taken away from me and I was put on a plane that same day to another state begin three months of psychiatric testing and evaluations.
But it didn’t start then because I knew it was coming for months and after it was over, I knew they would try again at some point, which they did and so the stress never started or stopped. It was ever present in my life.
The stress ? It almost destroyed my life and me, but I retired and most of them didn’t except under threat of being fired themselves.
So…we can laugh about it now. Hahaha.
But…it hasn’t stopped just because I’m not there anymore. The BLM top level managers are still giving away your resources for pennies on the dollar while industry executives do the revolving door thing with the blessing and protection of most, if not all Westerns Senators and some Western Representatives.
Oh well…it’s not MY problem anymore. I have my piece of the pie. I’m going’…Jeepin’ etc. and so on and so forth.
😎
Oh…and that new Whistleblower for the Ukraine thing and nice life they and their family used to have? In a best case scenario…their life as they knew it is OVER and they are OFFICIALLY FUCKED FOR LIFE.
Okay…here is just one small example to illustrate the point I am trying to make that both BLM top managers and politicians are in it together.
When I retired from the BLM in 2006, there were about 50 Criminal Investigates (Special Agents) in the entire agency and that included state office and Washington Office supervisors and managers who didn’t go to the field or conduct investigations. And there were about 150 uniformed patrol officers in the entire agency with the same ration for non field going Rangers in both state offices and D.C. and that number is probably the same today.
Now…I have explained to you briefly just how complex the mission of BLM law enforcement is with everything that is going on, on BLM land. which includes all of the oil and gas (including offshore deposits) and subsurface minerals the federal government owns, even those subsurface minerals that are under National Forests and other federal land. They manage the surface, but the BLM managers the subsurface.
Now…I have explained to you how YOU actually own all of that land and the resources on it, is worth a total in dollars that is to big of a number to write.
Almost everybody who operates on BLM managed land making money, and I have told you that is just about everybody, is responsible to self report how much they are taking and how much they should pay in fees because the BLM isn’t able to hire civil servants to do that kind of work the Foxes who run the hen house, or the politicians who provide the funding for the agency to operate with, want them to have any more employees they can possibly get away with.
Now…I have explained to you that you own so much land and so many resources, the value can’t be calculated.
So..here is the bottom line. You only have a total of about 200 investigators and uniform patrol officers to patrol your priceless resources and investigations to investigate when someone steals from you.
You have about one law enforcement officer, (which includes investigators in addition to state office and WO personnel who don’t really do anything proactively protect your property) per 1,000,000 acres of land you own. That is about 200 LE personnel to protect about 200 million acres of your land and corresponding resources on that land that is worth so much money the number can’t be calculated.
Does that seem like a reasonable way to staff a money making business in order to protect what you own…if you were in business it make money from the land you own. Oh…and ranchers, lots of ranchers graze their livestock on federal land for next to nothing compared to what they would pay…say their neighbor to use their land.
Why do you think neither BLM management, nor the Western Senators and Representatives who provide both the funding and authorization for you to hire people to manage your assets, keeps those numbers so ridiculously low?
Do you think it might be because none of them want either patrol officers or investigators out there on your 200 million acres of land protecting it?
Because maybe…just maybe, they are afraid that might interfere with, or make it harder for them to give your candy store away…for pennies on the dollar, or even less?
How do you feel about that?
I didn’t intend to be opaque when talking about how I showed up for work one morning and was put on a plane that day and flown to another state to begin three months of psyche testing.
My office at the time was with U.S. Customs Air Interdiction where they maintained both Blackhawks and pursuit aircraft on the Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque.
I was then flown without any advance notice for a psyche evaluation by a Police Psychiatrist and Psychologist who had the federal contract to do that kind of thing in Tucson, Arizona.
My testing started immediately upon my arrival in Tucson that same morning and continued for the entire day to start with.
After they finally finished with me, I met with the psychiatrist and he only spoke 4 words for me. I don’t know everything that was in his report, but he said to me, “Go back to work.” That was it. Go back to work. And so I got up and went back to work.
😎
Oh…and just one more interesting thing I never understood even after 18 years with the BLM.
There is a BLM Office in Milwaukee from where they manage the eastern coal mines and fields. Figure that one out if you can?
Oh…and I was never much help with most of the things I mentioned anyway.
I was usually just too damn busy fuckin’ around down on the Mexican Border because you know…that’s where the pure adrenaline shots were and I had to feed the monkey.
Everybody has to feed the monkey on their back.
Fighting wildfire…is addictive. It would be best just to never become addicted to adrenaline and then you neither have to feed the monkey, or suffer through withdrawals. Just you know…FYI.
You can not not like Gary O. I know a double negative forbidden in the Kings English but forgive my Irish brogue.. Foibles are meant to testy your mental stability. If ye be offended then reach down into your innermost being to see what is the problem. It might also test your empathy factor to give latitude to those of lesser ability. No I am not degrading you or me. But I would understand how Gary sets the pace for honest–right out front and you never have to guess his take on things. Thanks Gary we do need more like you–well there are quite a few here on who wants to know the truth.
That was a good article on the Alaskan Pepple ordeal. Good Lords of the Irish–they have already spent a couple hundred million trying to figure out how not to kill the fish. EPA said no matter, putting the mine in will be a disaster to the Salmon and more concerning the environment all around. But you notice EPA was not about to put stops to it–who would want Trump breathing down your shirt–did you see what he did to Vince McMahon? Vince is a pretty tough hombre but Trump had him on the floor in a heart beat. Can you imagine some of those wimps in EPA back talking Trump? He already has their DNA samples–God knows he has their Emails and private lives down pat–even photos of them stuffing twenties in some stripper dive in Alaska. He could cause some bad damage physical or emotional–wives see those public photos and the shit hits the fan but worse if you find you are unseated from your position. EPA and high government do not have jobs–they have positions–and a big pecker sized according to the pecking order.
Bernie Sanders is out with a couple heart stints–caught him before he went down totally with a public heart attack. He would have been a weak choice anyway–who knows maybe one of the ladies will beat Trump out next round–but I wonder does it matter who will be there.
Oil and big Industry can and will crush anyone trying to mess up their golden goose egg production. And in that mine they are talking about many billions in profit–Salmon and environment will always be secondary. And do not think Big Oil is not into mining–the Uranium mine that caved on me and got me disqualified to contract mine underground was owned by Standard Oil of Ohio. They generally use straw companies so it does not seem to be their operations of pollution and environmental damage. Well you have some of the best minds working out the problems when you can pay top wages.
In the case of the EPA guys, whoever put up a semblance of resistance yet did no action to prevent the mine operation from going forward will be rewarded in two ways–Trump won’t send his goons up and the mining companies will (may have promised) him a fat cat position in the mining world. It is no problem to grease the wheels if you have no problem spending a couple hundred million just looking at a mine situation. Good bye Salmon–you just got killled–jobs Great America, and progress have just outbid your plea for life and justice.
Gary,
Finally getting around to answering you … in part.
You posted “It kinda sounded like RTS was on a roll for a while working himself up to telling the rest of us what happened, but then he went silent again? Maybe he will come back and give it another shot?”
Still working through the odious Windows 10 ongoing nightmare … the gift that keeps on giving. And have to wait for the formal investigation on the hacking incidents..
Still a rebel and non-conformist. Both of us non-conformists.
When did I accuse you of being Machiavellian? And the same for following Sun Tzu?
Oh man…it was like 4 years ago on the Machiavellian post. And you didn’t write I was a student of his, that was just my interpretation. I think you actually said I was Machiavellian because of the whole special agent mind meld thing I periodically try with very little practical effect. And I was just kidding about being offended, because I think there are some good things we can learn from everyone…including Machiavelli. Just sayin….
Take Marsh for example. He reminded us that sometimes when people are sanctioned by the system for recklessly scribbling outside the lines and then using pages from the coloring book to make some big blunts to smoke with the saw team on the line…they really are Terminal Fuck Ups as opposed to how I have always viewed myself…as merely a Situational Fuck Up.
Although went I went out on my first expanded dispatch team with Sherrill Lambson, who was an old school BIA FMO from Ramah, New Mexico, to fight the big one from the comforts of a nice office and motel room, he taught me that it’s NOT a Fuck Up IF you can recover. That is a critical skill set when working expanded dispatch in an area you are unfamiliar with. Tom…Tom…Tom…damn it…from ABQ BLM was our third team member. Tom is a great guy, we had a lot of fun during that trip.
We went to Asheville, North Carolina, for a couple of weeks where we ended up at Bill Stanley’s Blue Grass and Barbecue to party. And there wasn’t any place to sit because the place was jam packed.
When Bill Stanley heard from the bouncers that we were “firefighters” who had come all of the New Mexico to save their in their “hollers” and the Forests on their Appalachia Mountains…Bill Stanley personally escorted us up and seated us at the bands table in the front of a really big room with hundreds of drunk crackers and hillbillies where the band’s wives and girlfriends were already sitting. at their personal table.
And then Bill left us sitting there without any explanation to the crackers and hillbillies so at their first break, the band and their cracker and hillbilly posse wanted to fight us. And neither Sherrill or Tom are very big guys, a lot of fun, but…
But then when Bill heard the ruckus…he came running up to the front and after he explained what was going on…the band wanted us to come up on the stage and clog with them and buy us drinks.
And then all of the cracker and hillbilly women lined up to insist we clog with all of them. I was really relieved when I found out clogging didn’t mean what I thought it did!
Anyway…we had hundreds of drunk crackers and hillbillies celebrate their new heroes until closing time because we (the great firefighters) had come all of the way from what they thought was a foreign country ( New Mexico) to save their forests and “hollers.”
Anyway…that trip confirmed exactly what I had always suspected during my 10 years as a hotshot (during which I never spent even one night in a motel, or anywhere other than airport tarmacs, National Guard Armories, high school gyms, or just sleeping on the ground in a parking lot. And during that time, I only ordered one cooked to order meal when they didn’t get the memo at a Denny’s on our way to the Crossman Peak Fire of 1980, that they were supposed to just put precooked scrambled eggs, hash browns, link sausage, whole wheat toast and orange juice in front of us and call it good, And I was so confused when the waitress asked me what I wanted, I said, “I would like precooked scrambled eggs, hash browns, link sausage, whole wheat toast and orange juice, thank you.” And then the entire crew, except for my assistant, ordered the same thing I did one by one as the waitress went around the table) there are firefighters and then there are…”firefighters.” And i did find out what I had always suspect, it was much better to be a “firefighter.”
I did feel very guilty for about 10…or maybe even for as long as 15 minutes? And then I announced to all of the adoring hillbillies and crackers that yes…they were correct, I had traveled a great distance just to do what I could to save their world.
And as far as the whole
Sun Tzu thing goes, that was just a few weeks ago…so one of us…or both of us, needs to get screened for Alzheimer’s disease and either Sudden Onset Dementia and/or Frontotemporal dementia. Just sayin….
And as far as your computer issues go…I feel your pain. I have sworn for years I had bought my last PC and when that last one crashed for good, I was going to make the BIG SWITCH to an Apple.
And the reason I had put the switch off for so many years was because I feared the steep learning curve and it has been even worse than I thought it would be.
And I’m pretty sure you know I was just tryin’ my SA mind meld thing again by pimping you about telling us what you know? I believe you will tell us when you deem the time to be right and you think we have evolved enough to handle the truth. I trust both you and Joy to do the right thing.
Namaste…🙏🏻
This is the new me. How do you like me now?
Gary,
The Machiavellian thing, if I accused you of it, would have been about manipulating and using people just to get what you needed and then tossed them away like a rag.
The Sun Tzu thing was a heads up for Harold or someone, just letting him know what he was getting into. More a subtle compliment to you to acknowledge your actions.
Regarding the bits and pieces of the truth yet to come out, I was (and still am) hoping for DND to come forward and contribute.
It’s gonna be forever waiting for me to to “think we have evolved enough to handle the truth” because I refuse to believe in the lies and junk science of evolution. It’s an insult to my intelligence to believe I came from a slime pool and so much more.
This is an amazing website well worth checking out.
( https://answersingenesis.org/ )
And the new you? You were okay before except for the recurring rants and raves
Yes…you Sir are correct about all of that! You know..except about the website. That is a premature assessment regarding the website.. But…I will go check it out! Thank you for just being you!
Wait…is confessing to plants kinda like an “The Onion” thing?
https://www.theonion.com/
Sooooo….are you are saying this is a bad thing?
“…manipulating and using people just to get what you needed and then tossed them away like a rag.
Oh…and one more thing RTS. Thank you so much for the heartfelt recommendation and rousing endorsement.
“And the new you? You were okay before except for the recurring rants and raves.”
I feel so much better about myself now! Your use of the colloquial term of endearment of “okay”, pretty much says it all. You are indeed a generous person!
And what do I think of you.? I love you just the way you are like a brother from another mother and I don’t want you to change ANYTHING about yourself because then you wouldn’t be you.
You would be RTS 2.0 and I just don’t know how I would feel about him?
Namaste brother…🙏🏻
Gary I opine is right on with his report. It is too bad that it is the big money interest groups that manage things. And true it is set up so the taxpayer is footing the bill to keep them rich.
Yes I did manage a half way house at one time on a year contract–In those days it was called the Thorazine shuffle. It probably still exists but since I have been out of the circle for so many years by now I am certain the Shrink uses newer drugs. Some in those days were in a Zombie state.
But what has that to do with wild land fire fighting? I am not sure but some things that happened at Yarnell as a result of the action and tragedy might put you in a Shrink’s office. Just be aware of the side effects of drugs prescribed–the Doc might not tell you but usually they will hand you a list and it might be a long one. If you get some of the bad effects he can always give you another drug to counteract the side effects or else change you to a different drug. I am not a medical doctor so don’t take my advice but know that everyone is human and to err is human. The big errors are when it causes lives and we did see that at Yarnell–Doctors kill a few as well–well known that fact.
Do be cautious when someone else’s life depend upon your decisions. And that is multiplied many times over when it concerns a crew of 19.
Now that the clean air act is being repealed, then how many lives will it effect. Well you must balance that with how many jobs will be restored I suppose. I do think that selling face filters will be a flourishing business–a good idea to help keep our health for certain. Maybe Trump should add that to his wealth building scheme. Certain it is that wild land fire fighters need to wear them as often as possible considering the toxic chemicals they are exposed to.
I have tried to use them on different occasions–with strenuous work it is hard. But rest assured those fire retardants are strictly toxic despite the downplay by the chemical companies and forest officials that promote them.
Few people know there are designer bacteria that have been patented–for example the Aids Virus and Ebola. These patents involve war time use of such bacteria and virus for use only in desperate war situations. The do escape at times and infect certain populations.
The war department is ever inventing new ways to win wars and we did well in the Iraq war with few casualties on going in–use of brain scrambling techniques worked wonders and the Iraq armies wee surrendering in massive numbers. That was great since many lives were saved actually on both sides but it also tells us how advanced government techniques are. Many scientists have said that technology is 50 years or more beyond what the public is informed of. I believe that.
Somewhere along the line more than 50% of physical tasks in industry will be robotic. There will be lots of unemployment from that. There will have to be some robot technicians -might be a good job for the young man to look into–that and medical professions.
Fire fighting might have a bleak future once all the forests are pretty much burned away. Global warming, arsonists, and natural causes will make sure they do.
And I would predict that we are a long way off from weaning ourselves from oil and coal usage. Nuclear energy will always be a disaster about to happen–and I don’t know what part it will do to stop global warming–using one evil to fight another evil and the uranium, plutonium evils are at the top of toxins to humans and environment. They are parked along waterways as well–not much is said about the Japanese melt downs now a days but many cancers can be attributed there world wide. Japan’s revenge for Hiroshima and Nagasaki–Karma at work you might say.
So the 160 scientists from the world of nations prediction that the population need be reduced to 800 million by 2030 might just be met by hook or crook.
Correction–last statement by the Elite Scientists from 160 nations at Cairo, Egypt was MUST be met by 2030 else the earth environment will become uninhabitable. Hopefully they will be able to extend the date some.
Ha Joy–Truth is I have had 6 wives if I count them right. All good women I was the bad guy and when you ran that ad in the paper that Sonny was going to host a party at the Yarnell Bar to celebrate his soon to be 7th wedding. You had posted who is the lucky lady? Well half the town of Yarnell showed up, even some non drinkers only to find they had been hoodwinked. I was having a shot of Jack Daniels #7 to celebrate not having the 7th wedding. So no I am not a good marriage candidate–I like my freedom too much and surviving 6 marriages might be the limit. After all that first wife had taken a pot shot at me with my own pistol–45 long colt and it kicked up a hell of a dust in front of me–I cleared a 6 foot fence to allow her time to cool off. Well nothing like a good spat in a marriage and you are bound to have a few.
I just got back from a good 6 mile hike and survived that. Nothing like being out in the middle of the desert where the only fellow to argue with is yourself and maybe my white German Shepard that does not argue. I never feel alone out there with my dog and seeing Indian chippings. Their spirit lurks the desert air–I think I might have been an Indian in an earlier life–maybe even a Mexican since I speak Mexican so well. But there is nothing better than my Irish blood. The Irish Gods are good friends as well and hang out with Jesus at times I am certain.
We call ourselves free as Americans. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Material wealth if it means a lot to you, yes we are abundant with. But we are not the only nation that way, yet half the world lives on less than $2 per day according to some experts. I can tell you that some of the poorest people also are some of the richest–some get by on that amount. Some of those old Indians never had $2 a day–they knew how to make it on these deserts and pretty well until the fences went up and the buffalo were killed out and replaced with cattle and fences.
But certain things are getting tighter–wives now having to work when before they could make ends meet and take care of the home and children. Now they need to be tied to a job or career. And folks are stuck in the nasty bee hives called cities. There is no way out for them–it is determined that they can not be free but must be part of the system with the fat Queen bee and attending Drones running the show.
Well there is an escape–become a hiker–Joy will tell you how and the enjoyment, peace of mind and calmness to find that freedom that the mundane life of a city dude has to suffer. Stress will dissipate and all the shitty influences like TV ads, people peddling, control freaks and others with agendas will leave the mind and you will get your brain back and control will be your own. That is when the greatest and purest thoughts come to mind.
It is great to be a Catholic–you have confessed and now you go on but you confessed and admitted to some faults and sins. At least they are brought to mind and now you can see the light and do well. I have confessed to the Priest but now a days there are some nasty Priests–maybe they don’t have the pipeline to God they ought to have. So confessing to the desert or even your dog and God might be a good alternative. Well I was just thinking of that sick one Mr. Donut. We all know he lied plenty–but he keeps it up. Hard row to hoe–there is no sympathy on my part there. He has done much damage to the loved ones holding back like he did from the start and continues to do. So pull out your hankies for his tears–but I won’t. I would however admonish him to do the right thing and quit the life of lies.
He should post here on IM for these folks–it would be a great help to his addictions including that of living the lie.
A bit about the Bromates in fire retardant and also in the chem trails used to seed the sky and for other reasons of radar reflection to extend coverage. Those also contain micro particle of aluminum to help with the reflective qualities. The Bromates are neurotoxin and highly toxic.
And if you have symptoms of lesions that will not heal, lethargy, joint and muscle pain extreme, mind not as sharp as it should while doctors can’t figure it out–see if you have been vaccinated–they use aluminum hydroxide as an adjutant and most likely your doctor will never find the cause. Those lesions and symptoms can be there 6-8 years after a vaccination There is a TUBI documentary Aluminum Injection where the French finally tied in vaccinations with people that were suffering with symptoms not understood until they were able to connect all the people with vaccinations. They were in a quandary because they say that the vaccinations are necessary and they did not want to connect those people with the vaccines but lesion tissues all had aluminum.
We breath in enough of the Chem Trails that government needs to spread–especially around Military Bases for our radar detection security. So add the vaccines and retardant and other chemicals from the retardant then the cumulative effects–not good for a long life span.
The elite scientists from 160 nations met in Cairo, Egypt in 1973. They determined that the population of this planet can only sustain 800 million. They reported that if that figure is not met by 2030 the earth will become irreversibly inhabitable for human occupation.
It is a fact that some major cities and areas that the oxygen levels are down to 5%. The usual level of O2 should be at 20-22%. Are we preparing for a species that can live without oxygen? Those scientists might have a slant on things to come- 6 Billion of the worlds population needs to die according to their predictions–are you one of the elite?
**
** ONE SMALL STEP.
** ONE GIANT LEAP.
It was more than 9 years ago, in April of 2011, when the distinguished Wildland Fire Accident Investigator Dr. Ted Putnam first presented his now-famous paper entitled “Accidents, accident guides, stories and truth” at the the 11th International Wildland Fire Safety Summit in Missoula, Montana.
For those same 9 years, the official Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( established in 2002 ) has continually refused to either publish any links to Dr. Putnam’s famous paper, or have a copy of it available in their own library of Wildland Fire Safety publications.
About 8 hours ago ( on the afternoon of today, September 20, 2019 ) that ( finally ) changed.
Dr. Putnam’s paper has now been published HERE at the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
Title: Accidents, accident guides, stories and the truth
Author Name: Ted Putnam, PhD
Author Association: Mindful Solutions, 3431 Flicker LN, Missoula, MT 59804,
Author Email: tputnam (at) bresnan.net
Origin: From the Proceedings of 11th International Wildland Fire Safety Summit, April 4-8, 2011, Missoula, Montana, USA
Original Publisher: International Association of Wildland Fire, Missoula, Montana, USA
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/viewdocument/accidents-accident-guides-stories
Some excerpts from Dr. Ted Putnam’s famous paper.
NOTE: Keep in mind that this paper was originally published in April of 2011, a full TWO YEARS ( and two months ) BEFORE the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy and its subsequent botched SAIT investigation.
————————————————————————————————————
Abstract / Introduction:
Here at the 11th Wildland Fire Safety Summit we are students of fire safety, which is our basic reason for gathering to exchange our collective and separate visions. The secondary theme is how stories and narratives aid in this process.
Historically accident investigations have provided crucial feedback for maximizing safety.
These investigations have usually produced step-by-step factual reports to document the accident.
Recently some investigations have recommended relating the accident in a story format to increase readability, interest and learning within firefighter safety cultures.
Generally the goal of accident reports is to convey as much of the truth of an event that is discoverable.
However time, money, skill level, skill variety, accident guide used and other related factors can either enhance or deter the depth of understanding the accident causal elements.
Sometimes investigators deliberately distort or do not report all the causal elements.
Such biases lead firefighters to distrust the resulting reports, which can hamper our efforts to stay safe.
———————————————————————————————————-
From PDF page 6.
Again… this was published more than TWO YEARS prior to the Yarnell tragedy…
———————————————————————————————————-
Historically wildland fire entrapment investigations have operated with strong biases and typically left out entire quadrants of analysis, i.e. the cultural and intentional quadrants. Often these actions involve deceptive accounts but sometimes they involve misleading accounts.
Why do people and agencies do this?
Below are some of the reasons based on my personal observations:
Reasons for deceptive accounts include:
– Other organizations do it (such as structural and wild fire agencies, the Military, NASA, etc.).
– The agency will be sued if we don’t
– Key individuals have suffered enough
– The Agency will look bad.
– We’ll correct the situation when “the ashes have settled,” but it seems the ashes never settle.
– Using political agendas to falsify or withheld accident causes
– Sending unskilled employees who aren’t likely to find much to report
Reasons for misleading accounts include:
– Sending good, yet untrained people to investigate
– Seldom asking for highly trained investigators even when they have the relevant, necessary skills such as psychological, sociological and organizational experts
– Sending interested parties as investigators with known biases
– Sending only people with only firefighting expertise, as that is primarily what they will notice and report
– Removing witnesses and evidence before the team arrives
– Failing to preserve the accident scene
– Ineffective interviewing skills that lead to short, incomplete accounts, i.e., lack of sufficient detail to understand underlying human factor causes.
– Analyzing the accident using a set of rules (the 10 and 18) that is guaranteed to show firefighters did not follow them and then report superficially that firefighters failed to obey or follow them with a subsequent perennial easy fix: “Back to the Basics” of following the 10 and 18
– Quick turn-around, low cost investigations: If it’s not reported, you don’t have to fix it and can’t be held responsible later for similar future occurrences including fatalities.
———————————————————————————————————–
Whoops… got a year ahead of myself in the post above.
It’s not 2020 ( yet ). It’s still 2019.
Opening paragraphs above SHOULD have read like this…
—————————————————————————————————
It was more than EIGHT years ago, in April of 2011, when the distinguished Wildland Fire Accident Investigator Dr. Ted Putnam first presented his now-famous paper entitled “Accidents, accident guides, stories and truth” at the the 11th International Wildland Fire Safety Summit in Missoula, Montana.
For those same EIGHT years, the official Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( established in 2002 ) has continually refused to either publish any links to Dr. Putnam’s famous paper, or have a copy of it available in their own library of Wildland Fire Safety publications.
About 8 hours ago ( on the afternoon of today, September 20, 2019 ) that ( finally ) changed.
—————————————————————————————————-
Thanks WTKTT–That is amazing they would publish his paper–Very wise and pertinent information from a man who has the experience to back up his analysis of the wild land fire investigation problem. It describes the poorly done investigation at Yarnell and all the reasons behind it.
Joy is about to post a report on the Fire Retardants and their terrible effects on the environment and people. Ten parts per million of Florine is all it takes to do damage to the human body and environment. That is a minute amount, but another of the halogens used in Fire Retardants is Bromine. Bromine is a lung destroyer and both Bromine and Florine are carcinogens and are dangerous even in parts per million. Watch out for Brominated or Halogenated Fire Retardants–you will suffer down the line with cancer, heart attacks and renal problems.
There will always be a problem with these types poisons and even the phosphates and ammonium compounds in retardants. Once they are heated by the fires there are even more deadly chemicals created. Sadly people do not always immediately suffer the effects, but it only takes a look at people that have long exposure to these chemicals to realize how horrific to health these chemicals are. Firefighter statistics prove that fact out–your heart attacks and cancer rates are way beyond the norm but the chemical companies will continue to tell you that their poisons are safe.
If the EPA fined the Chemical Giants $70,ooo for a clean up job it is laughable. Their profits in the billions and damage to the environment and health should have them in bankrupt proceedings and some of them in jail.
WTKTT,
Thanks for posting Dr. Putnam’s research paper, ignored by the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (WLFLLC) for over eight years in spite of their Missions Statement: ” Our mission is to promote learning in the wildland fire service by providing useful and relevant products and services that help to reveal the complexity and risk in the wildland fire environment
Kudos to the WLFLLC for finally seeing the light and acknowledging and now posting this beneficial paper that until now could only be found at ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) and Academia [dot] edu
_____________________________________________
And here is another small step yet less than giant leap for GMHS alleged “lookout” McDid-Not, this next weekend at the 14th annual Celebrate the Art of Recovery Expo (CARE) where Community Bridges, Inc. (CBI) will break down the barriers to find help and hope in recovery.
“When: Saturday, September 28, 2019 from 10 a.m. – 2 p.m. Where: Phoenix Convention Center, West Building #300 Why: To celebrate National Recovery Month and break down the barriers associated with addiction
” Brendan McDonough – KEYNOTE SPEAKER – Lone Survivor of Yarnell Hill Wildfire
“When it comes to really digging deep in recovery, in work, as a family man, and in faith, Brendan McDonough is living proof that Breaking Down Barriers leads to success in recovery. And to being happy, joyous and free.
“Out of 20 of Prescott, Arizona’s Granite Mountain Hotshots, Brendan McDonough’s life was spared.
“That fateful summer day in 2013 brings haunting memories for Brendan. Ones fraught with depression, despair, post-traumatic stress disorder and one all-encompassing thought: Why me?
“Previous to becoming a Hotshot, Brendan already had overcome incredible barriers by recovering from a crippling heroin and alcohol addition, with his then-unborn daughter as inspiration. Staying off of drugs after the emotional trauma of losing his brothers was yet another seemingly insurmountable barrier.
“Instead of ultimately succumbing, he faced his addiction and behavioral triggers with grace, and continues to walk a meaningful journey with the memory of his fallen Hotshot brothers compelling him forward. And moreover, believing there to be a powerful reason his life was saved.
“Today, Brendan’s growing family can be proud of their father, who walks in service of others as they encounter sobriety one day at a time. At CARE, you’ll hear how he threads these incredible lessons into the fabric of his life, his work, his family, and most importantly, his faith in his higher power.
“You won’t want to miss Brendan’s story.”
“11:00 am | Keynote Speaker – Brendan McDonough, Former Granite Mountain Hotshot & Lone Survivor of the Yarnell Hill Wildfire, shares his experiences as he struggled through depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, and one all-encompassing thought: Why me?! ”
“12:00 am | Q & A with Kerry & Brendan – Kerry and Brendan dive deep into the impact and role that an outsider plays when one is going through a crisis or traumatic event.”
“1:00 PM | Meet & Greet with Brendan – Brendan McDonough will be available for a personal encounter. Please stop by and share a moment with this incredible human being.”
( https://www.celebratetheartofrecovery.org/ )
OMG! Are you kidding me?
You mean, the original Fire Order Number 10 is old and “Hillbilly” and how the GMHS were smarter than that ‘hero’? The suspense, the drama, the half-truths, the reasons why he never told the whole truth about what occurred on June 30, 2013; failed to comply with at least two subpoena requests, lawyered up, and wrote a book instead, to the chagrin of the many GMHS family members, friends, and loved ones … rebuffing all those seeking the truth.
How about it McDid-Not … believing that the powerful reason your life was saved by a higher power for your living proof status is to honor your fallen GMHS “Brothers” and tell all of us the truth about that fateful day.
.
Reply to Charlie post on September 14, 2019 at 12:37 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> David Kelley – another supporter of the Yarnell fables.
>> You can recognize them by their remarks. And you can bet he is in
>> bed with the likes of Amanda, Willis, and anyone supporting
>> the fantasy perpetrated by the SAIR report
Perhaps not.
Someone named ‘David Kelley’, who says he has “studied the subject” of the 2013 Yarnell Fire “extensively”, left another public comment on an article that featured an interview with Amanda Marsh.
In that video interview, which took place just before the first anniversary of the tragedy, Amanda Marsh ends up doing her own bit of “imagineering” about what happened in Yarnell, and says things like ‘lightning strikes’ were a primary concern and some stuff about Granite Mountain somehow NOT having any weather information… and then some people “called her out” on her version of events.
One of those ‘persons’ was named ‘David Kelley’…
TRkeys – Dcourier videos
Article Title: Granite Mountain Hotshot wife Amanda Marsh speaks about her pain and healing
Published: 30 Jun 2014
https://trkeys.net/watch/G2Uangj0XGM-granite-mountain-hotshot-wife-amanda-marsh-speaks-about-her-pain-and-healing.html
From that ( public ) video interview with Amanda Marsh…
———————————————————————————————————–
+0:00
Hello. I am Amanda Marsh.
I am the widow of Eric Marsh, who was the superintendent of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, and he died with the rest of his crew on June 30, 2013, on Yarnell Hill, in Arizona.
+11:12
And, of course, their deaths are very controversial, and so…
A lotta people seem to have a lot of opinions, when they were not there.
They do not understand fire.
They have no concept of actually what occurred… and… uhm… I think something that’s… uhm… very important to realize is that people talk about how the crew left the black that day on Yarnell Hill, and they died because they left the black.
Well there’s a LOT of information out there that the public does NOT know.
And one thing that I would really like to clarify for people is that it was in the middle of a monsoon. They were on a ridge line. On bare ground, on a ridge line. They were absolutely affected by the monsoon that was going on around them.
So… lightning striking around them.
Uhm… without the information of… uh… weather.
Oncoming weather. Which they did NOT have that information.
They did NOT know.
They left the black because they thought they were safe.
And they left the black because they knew that that was the safer…
With the information they had that was the safer alternative for them.
So… I’d really like that piece of controversy to be put to rest.
———————————————————————————————————
Some of the ( public ) comments that now accompany this published
video interview with Amanda Marsh…
———————————————————————————————————
Comment by: KEN5423 ( KEN5423Y )
Eric Marsh killed the Granite Mountain Hot Shots.
They were secure in the black. He killed them……he is no hero!
Reply from: David Kelley ( David Kelley10 )
I have studied the subject extensively. I agree.
Eric made a fatal decision. Steed disagreed but went anyway.
A result of many human errors.
———————————————————————————————————-
Followup ( clarification )…
When I posted the following ‘public’ comments up above which now accompany that June 30, 2014 video interview with Amanda Marsh…
————————————————————————————————–
Comment by: KEN5423 ( KEN5423Y )
Eric Marsh killed the Granite Mountain Hot Shots.
They were secure in the black. He killed them……he is no hero!
Reply from: David Kelley ( David Kelley10 )
I have studied the subject extensively. I agree.
Eric made a fatal decision. Steed disagreed but went anyway.
A result of many human errors.
————————————————————————————————–
…I don’t think I made it clear that I ( me, personally ), do NOT know if that is the SAME “David Kelley” who made the comments about Sonny and Joy up on YouTube.
Maybe it is. Maybe it isn’t.
Maybe it’s simply ‘another’ David Kelley ( who says he has studied the Yarnell tragedy ).
Thanks, WTKTT–This David Kelly I thought might be a wild land fire fighter. Sometimes I think my posts make me look like a clown–However, we were there and that monsoon idea did not hold. True the winds were up but the monsoon never made it unless it was sometime after their death. It was still clear weather yet the cold air from the thunderstorms were coming in from the Prescott area and higher elevations. There was no lightening storm either at the time of the evacuation. I think that can be verified by folks there–though I would be surprised if the storms did not move in later in the day.
As far as knowing the weather, Marsh was looking at those thunderstorms in the Northeast since early morning. He should have been able to read the weather easily from the two track–Dark clouds and lightening storms to the higher mountain range around Prescott would have told him that the winds would be headed toward the hot and dry Yarnell area at a lower elevation. But whether he knew about warnings from the weather men, I do not know. I was of the notion that they would all get weather updates every 30 minutes.
As for my own observations and especially seeing those storms to the NE, I had high adrenaline especially after I saw it hit the manzanita in the lower areas. I fully expected that fire to turn any minute and why I was in so insistent on getting to a safe area. I think if I had not experienced many storm situations from much outdoor life I would have been killed along with Joy.
Looking back, we had only made it out by about ten minutes or less. I had thought we should have had 30 minutes to an hour but at that time I did not know that wild land fire fighters are apt to start burns and I have sometimes thought that surely that Shrine burn we witnessed on video had something to do with cutting our time short. But now I am wondering if there was a burn on Sesame dirt track which DND has been alluding to since that would even be closer to the Boulder Rannch. You are only talking about an approximate mile–five minutes or less for that burn to move from Sesame then it went around that south ridge of the death canyon and would cut us off from getting to my vehicle.
I was in wonderment since from where we last saw the fire toward Peeples Valley I had estimated that we should have had some time even if it reversed. On the other hand I did know how fast wild fires can move.
Truly, Amanda was not there–but we were and I did see what was about to happen and could not imagine dropping off into any canyon on the east side of the Weavers. One thing we had no communications, no rescue party or concerns ab0ut where we were so we were on our own. And that went for the town of Yarnell as well–many barely escaped that fire since warnings there came very late when the fire was nearly upon the town. In fact many escaped only because they saw their back yards on fire. There was some reprieve there since the streets and residences gave some delay to the advance of the fire. But in the manzanita where the GMHS crew was there was absolutely no delay to the fire. I still wonder why they did not run to the boulder patch–but after seeing that they had no clue that the wind would reverse how could they have any forethought about the boulder patch being an alternative to laying out those skimpy fire blankets in a dense manzanita area.
What I see is that persons put in charge of wild land fire crews ought to have a long familiarity of the wild lands and storm situations. Sadly the GMHS crew, at least as far as the bosses were concerned knew little. Hillbilly rules my ass–the fact that Donut said that makes me understand that they had no clue about how to keep alive in wild land fire fighting situations and believed those life saving simple rules were not of value in wild land fire fighting situations–yet they are just common sense–something a few hillbillies have==proven by Rick McKensey who is a bonafied hillbilly cowboy of many years hill experience in that area–You Boys don’t get caught in that manzanita if that fire gets down the mountain.
Either way, it was negligence–perhaps from ignorance but also from stupidity that those young men were needlessly killed..
Reply to Charlie post on September 17, 2019 at 7:56 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> This David Kelly I thought might be a wild land fire fighter.
Perhaps. When he write ( publicly ) that (quote) “WE know what happened”, you have to wonder WHO he means by WE.
Wildland Firefighters in general?
Arizona Wildland Firefighters?
Prescott Fire Department FFs?
How small or large of a ‘group’ is this “WE know what happened” that he implies he is a ‘member’ of?
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> …we were there and that monsoon idea did not hold.
>>
>> True the winds were up but the monsoon never made it unless it
>> was sometime after their death. It was still clear weather
>> yet the cold air from the thunderstorms were coming in from
>> the Prescott area and higher elevations.
>>
>> There was no lightening storm either at the time of the evacuation.
YOU were, in fact, THERE.
YOU would know.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> As far as knowing the weather, Marsh was looking at those
>> thunderstorms in the Northeast since early morning. He should
>> have been able to read the weather easily from the two track–Dark
>> clouds and lightening storms to the higher mountain range around
>> Prescott would have told him that the winds would be headed toward
>> the hot and dry Yarnell area at a lower elevation.
There is ( and always has been ) all kinds of evidence ( testimony, audio recordings, etc. ) that give every indication that Marsh and Steed were perfectly aware of the weather situation.
Marsh is reported to have been the first one to tell OPS1 Todd Abel, circa 3:50 PM, that the winds were now getting all “squirrelly” up on the Weaver Ridge.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> But whether he knew about warnings from the weather men, I do not know.
Again, tons of existing evidence ( testimony, audio recordings, etc. ) which indicates both Marsh and Steed DID hear the crucial weather reports that day over the radio.
The original SAIT report says they did.
The original ADOSH report says they did.
Steed and McDonough discussed the crucial 3:30 PM weather report given out by Byron Kimball over the radio just before McDonough left his lookout position.
Blue Ridge Hotshot Brian Frisby was recorded in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos telling someone that Granite Mountain had ( quote ) “…been TOLD to pick it up and monitor the weather” ( unquote ).
OPS1 Todd Able told Marsh directly “Hunker and be SAFE”.
yada… yada… yada…
They ( Marsh and Steed ) knew perfectly well what was coming… but they decided to make the risky move, anyway.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Looking back, we had only made it out by about ten minutes or less.
>> I had thought we should have had 30 minutes to an hour but at that
>> time I did not know that wild land fire fighters are apt to start
>> burns and I have sometimes thought that surely that Shrine burn we
>> witnessed on video had something to do with cutting our time short.
>> But now I am wondering if there was a burn on Sesame dirt track
>> which DND has been alluding to since that would even be closer
>> to the Boulder Rannch.
Yes. Everything this “Downhillndirect” guy has alluded to ( AND the recent interview comments posted by RTS ) suggest the Sesame Street area as one of the burnout location(s).
His other ‘drive by’ comments also strongly suggest that we are now talking about at least TWO videos that eventually ‘disappeared’.
1. One video of FFs doing manual burnouts in the Shrine Road area.
2. Another video of FFs doing manual burnouts on Sesame Street area.
Still no EXACT location established for any possible Sesame burns.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Truly, Amanda was not there…
No, she wasn’t.
>> but WE were…
Yes, you were.
I had sometimes been suspect of a lightning strike starting that fire yet some people in Yarnell say they actually witnessed it. That Friday afternoon when Joy and I were looking at the smoke from the west side of the weavers and outside the gas station at Congress, Arizona, the fire had just begun. Rhonda, Joy’s hiking friend from several years had walked Joy out of the indoors to point it out. I was gassing up and we were headed up the mountain to Yarnell. From Congress gas station to Yarnell is about 9 miles but a windy road since it is over a thousand foot climb from the desert floor to Yarnell below the Weaver Range. As the crow flies to the fire would be more like 5 or 6 miles.
You could see that it was just below the top of the Weavers and appeared to be a single tree on fire, although the smoke was easily seen because the weather was clear. That was the mystery–how a lightening strike had come about in clear weather? I have researched it and there is a possibility and it is said lightening can strike within 6-12 miles from a storm area yet even then there were storm areas but more like 20-30 miles east and north east. Also I made several attempts to locate something that would attract lightening and be struck.
Those of us that have spent much time in the outdoors know what lightening does when it strikes a tree or say a Yucca. Up there where the fire started–and we knew since we could see the exact location and up a canyon that could not be mistaken. In fact later we got the exact co ordinates where it started and went there. Well there is not much on the West side of the Weavers in that area to strike as far as trees go–only brush, grass and boulder outcroppings.
It is an easy area to hike to since the two track trail takes you withing about 50-70 yards of the location. And if you were in Yarnell there was no way you could see the actual strike since the fire was down the hill some–some may have seen a lightening bolt but they could have never seen the actual point of strike and could only have seen the smoke some time after the strike if that was the actual cause of that fire. Like everything else, there seems to be a mystery to the Yarnell incident–perhaps lightening did start that fire but I could never absolutely find a point it had hit anything.
But this I know–there were no lightening strikes on the Weavers from that morning when we left at 3:30 am to the time we got back to my vehicle on Foothills Drive at I believe about 4:30–time check with Joy on that for exact time back. Yet I do understand there was a lightening storm headed toward Yarnell–and what time they started getting the lightening I could not say after 5 or 5:30 as we were descending the mountain back to Congress–Raining yes–but only hot embers from the winds that had kicked up.
Amanda said people speak but they do not know fires. Strange statement considering her husband certainly did not know or understand fires and no he was not running from lightening strikes–more like he played out a risk that cost the lives of his crew.
Thanks WTKTT–those details you point out brings much clarity to how people are putting out disinformation to bolster Marsh and Steed’s error of doing the unjustifiable and killing their crew.
Yes, WTKTT generally has the perfect analysis of things–and uncanny ability to gather and interpret the facts.
This David Kelly mighty indeed be someone of substance. He seems to know quite a lot and has a group that together have insider knowledge of what the facts were at Yarnell to kill those men.
(I haven’t worn clown shoes or boots) but then I might qualify without? However if David Kelly is indeed the person labeling me as a clown then he has my invitation to post here and explain. Seems that since I am a civilian with no general fire fighting experience other than saving my ass and Joy’s on that horrible day of death on June 30,2013. At least this clown knew better than to drop off in a box canyon choke full of manzanita.
I am however wise enough to know from visitations of bonafied wild land fire fighting bosses (about 100 hikes with wild land fire fighters), that what Marsh and Steed did was something all the experts would say wasnot wise firefighting–all said they were trying to understand how that happened.
The comments that WTKTT transposed to this site make me believe that David Kelly would have much important and valuable facts and insights to add to this ongoing discussion about the Yarnell incident. He certainly would be welcome to post here and he sounds like no clown.
On the bright side we did not have a wild fire here–the former dense growth of grass has been eaten down by the local Rancher’s cattle herd. His black Angus Bull got into my little 4 acre plot and took good advantage of my 750 gallong metal water tank–He did not mind a close up photo and posed for it within 5 foot of his water suction. He spent the day inside mowing the greener grass inside my fenced acres. I named him Geronimo. The dogs at first did not tolerate his presence but he gave them no respect so they decided with my admonishment to leave him alone.
He finally was on his way out just as I was returning from a 6 mile hike–yes I have been working up my distance gradually.. Anyway there was another bull just outside the fence and I think a pal to Geronimo, reason he was going out to meet the other. It gave me a chance to close the gate cause I think Geronimo was going to round up his cows to bring them back with him.
So I did find a nice meteorite and some shards of pottery and chippings. That pottery shard was black and white painted nicely on the inside of a pot or bowl –and I recognized it as Mimbres pottery. They were the only ones that did paint the insides of their pottery in this area so that dates it back to more than 900 years ago. The Apaches roamed here as well but only a 100-maybe 300 years ago.
Gary hasn’t posted lately–miss his posts they are always good. I was going to ask him if it is illegal to pick up a pottery shard–I did take photos but I think that is still legal to do. I do understand picking up arrowheads and other artifacts is strictly illegal. The Indian stuff is not my thing but I do find it interesting that not only did Geronimo and his tribe frequent my area but also people from a thousand years ago when Buffalo, deer and antelope were plentiful and fences and black angus were yet to replace them. So Gary was on my mind and maybe the sheik of Geronimo was following me–I made it back alive but maybe barely.
I think the fact that we are all deeply saddened by the deaths of all the GMHS crew has changed our view of life much. Because Joy and I were there and so close to the action and observing them and their work it makes us appreciate how frail this life can be and how much each day means in this strange world of do or die. I have literally been slowed down and am in slow motion– It is hard to describe the changes made by the Yarnell experience, yet it has had much effect on my person–not good yet perhaps tolerable.
And maybe our constant hammering at the falsehoods, redactions, mum orders, and cover ups has helped us cope. Truth must prevail in this case.
And the clown thing–my son Ted, the underwater welder, now deceased used to dress up as a clown–hand out helium filled ballons to kids and take donations for something in High School. He was School President of the Student body elected the three years in a row that he ran. But I know for a fact my son was of kind heart–one person I miss–he was one to give you his coat if you asked==well I know for a fact you did not have to ask since he had done that very thing on occasion to the homeless on cold days–and his sleeping bag along with the coat.
Life is so short for some of the best–maybe the Irish Gods had some business they wanted him to do. I hope to see him again, not only in my dreams but in the Spirit world. I have had great dreams of him but also horrible nightmares of trying to put his dismembered body back together with no success–a gut wrenching ordeal. And these are recent dreams and nightmares–He died the last of August, 1999. So you see the terror and grief of loosing a son never goes away–It is a torture that you can not completely rid yourself of–most especially if you never got a resolution of the full truth. That is why I chastise Donut–to withhold from the loved ones what you really know is most unjust–to me worse than the crimes he did to get him in prison. I know the heartbreak of having lost a loved one and not knowing the full story.
WantsToKnowTheTruth, You just had to post the link to that interview, and I just had to watch. Made my stomach turn for so many reasons.
I remember that day when this video came out- I had just spent most of that day with Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman’s friends: Holly Neill, Eric Marsh’s best friend Alan Sinclair, Deanna Thompson (Fire20+), Fred Thompson, Jim Roth and his lady and Michael Kodas on a hike to show one of the angles from anonymous “scared” homeowners locations where they took the photo June 30, 2013 (Sesame to Shrine Corridor) and in that hike Holly Neill spoke at low decibel to Alan Sinclair but what they both failed to understand at that point because of the January 2014 article and Charlie Moseley’s sharing to me about how to handle myself around certain people – Holly at that phase was categorized as “caution” so that was a recorded hike (low decibel or not) so I remember a lot of it yet one day when I find that “needle in the haystack” audio I will re-listen to it and figure how this ties in to this video insert – yet I do remember HOW MUCH and HOW DEEP my empathy I had when I watched this video for Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman June 30, 2014- never imagining the local FFs texting me how Chief Ben Palm was looking for some way to have the hikers arrested and we never knew anything about this Chief (documented well) but I knew I would become to learn who he is when a fellow prior student along with Chief Ben Palm who was at my home stated this man was SHOCKED Ben was a Chief as he played video games with him and truly he was in shock as he saw all my research on his old student gaming pal….never did I imagine that the error misunderstanding with K. Lewis and NY Times warning a journalist about her communications with the widow and then the Prescott radio guy telling me he was having concerns to than months later I ended up being served that injunction for harassment….I want her in this video to “clarify” what “misinformation” is out there versus “generals” because it is plain and simple- Eric lied on his applications and Eric is not who the aftermath has presented…I get the emotional layers yet let us stick to the facts please…and get to “why” the men died …
The men were safe in the black and her explanation knowing what is not yet out in the public but so many know- they all were like ????
I will always forever appreciate the courage for this video link and her making it because only few knew that the week before the YH Fire Amanda was in the local papers for another remembrance of a childhood trauma of hers so I always felt the emotion and yet until the day she sits with me and see the many layers and stop the paths I have seen towards me – I am doing everything I can for the kids who cannot right now but one day will be grown up- You do not see me orchestrating legacies of heroism from this tragedy and I have refused some high up folks’ offers for books and movies because God is in charge and I know in His time it will come out in the way He wants not me…
Bill-
I want you to try blueberries for that really helps upset stomach feelings yet remember how courageous it was for Amanda to do this video- this is not a story about Eric or his death or the lives left behind but discussing the Fire Orders and know there has not yet been one Fire Fatality following all the orders…
National Heroes would be men who saved the lives of those they were responsible for – while adhering to the Principle of their Supervisory Responsibility to ensure the safety and welfare of those they supervise; and one of the key ways to do that is to adhere to LCES, and the 10 and 18.
Joy,
I was eating blueberries when I read this. lol.
You are right, it was courageous for her to do and I admire that. but that doesn’t change the B.S. coming out of her mouth. Lightning… smmmsh.
Reply to bill post on September 20, 2019 at 12:10 pm
>> bill said…
>>
>> WantsToKnowTheTruth, You just had to post the link to that interview,
>> and I just had to watch. Made my stomach turn for so many reasons.
I hear ya.
The point was to show that this “David Kelley” person has posted publicly about the Yarnell incident before… but it wouldn’t have made much sense without the CONTEXT of WHERE he was posting… which was at the bottom of that Amanda Lohman ( formerly Mrs. Eric Marsh ) June 30, 2014 video interview.
And yea… that particular video interview remains ‘infamous’ for any number of reasons.
Never before has the industry had to watch family members of a tragic event work out their own PTSD in such a public manner.
Such is the “new age” of social media and “emotional verbosity”.
Lohman / Marsh has insisted on maintaining a very PUBLIC presence ever since the tragedy… but she has never been asked to explain statements like this…
“There’s a LOT of information out there that the public does NOT know.”
Okay. Fine. Whatever.
Simple solution there.
Just TELL us… and then we WILL know.
Problem solved.
Sonny- this man on John Dougherty’s YOUTUBE video on us said some stuff on you and letting you know:
https://youtu.be/JA0njuVjD2c
Yarnell Hill Hikers Part I
4,896 views
and h tt p s ://youtu.be/qSaQ8A9UeWk
Yarnell Hill Hikers Part II
4,681 views
David Kelley Stated:
David Kelley
9 months ago
Sonny and Joy? Two clowns that know nothing
——————-
David Kelley
10 months ago
Joy knows nothing. The story isnt about you. We know what happened and we don’t need your nonsense explanation. Give it a rest already clown.
——————————–
David Kelley
10 months ago
Sonny and Joy. Always looking for attention. You know nothing. You are not experts.
——————————–
David Kelley
10 months ago (edited)
Its all about Sonny and Joy. Celebrity wantabees. Dont spread poison Joy. It does nobody any good. We know what happened. Spare the families your hyperbole.
————————————-
this was placed on both video comment areas:
David Kelley
10 months ago (edited)
Its all about Sonny and Joy. Celebrity wantabees. Dont spread poison Joy. It does nobody any good. We know what happened. Spare the families your hyperbole.
David Kelly-another supporter of the Yarnell fables. You can recognize them by their remarks. And you can bet he is in bed with the likes of Amanda, Willis, and anyone supporting the fantasy perpetrated by the SAIR report and backed by those that would support the worst wild land fire fighting management ever. However truth will win–and I don’t give a shit what he thinks–I know who I am and could care less about being in the lime light.
However, I have seen enough of the falsehoods present and backed by such as this David Kelly, et. al., that I realize the delusions he and others abide in. You can only pity such for some can not handle the truth.
Hey Sonny-
do you think that some just are unable to open that door to truths – like the heaviness is just too much to handle … ??? I think of the SAIT SAIR conference ( Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation Press Conference Part IV Sept. 28, 2013 https://youtu.be/iI_FmXQFHsc ) and the pure confidence and realisms of one of the Turbyfill family members when she said “keep the line of communication open …” listen to 6:29, I felt the sincerity and yet to this date that lady was never shown that respect yet publicly to show her that true line of communication …
Sonny … none of us want to be bullshitted not the family members and not you and I – the YH Fire eyewitnesses. We know what we saw and went through and the lack of line of communications … it has not been an easy path but we remain the course.
I am heading offline due to rolling thunder noises but yeah David does not get the whole package but because he said what he did – he may of been in the crucial areas so just another record to pull –
Thanks David.
————————————
I have had emails asking to “give us more” while my blog is down…I am going thru health stuff and the only thing I am taking time out for is to “clean up” my emails not reply to any as the investigation happens for my site and I will do the DC thing over when I get the clearance why it happened and it is safe again to rebuild it. Someone does not want the data out.
I do not know who David Kelly is–firefighter, loved one, citizen, friend or fiend? You are correct–some want to stuff it and go on–let Marsh and Steed be heroes and let the reports and managers of the Yarnell fire continue as good examples of how wild land fire fighting and investigations be. But they were not Poor management practices with the abbreviated investigations, then redactions, mum orders, cover ups and blatant lies stink to high heave. Nineteen young men died in that wild land fire. It is obvious to even the clowns, whomever that might include among the perpetrators and others buying the lies, that this was only an attempt to maintain reputations–a terrible thing to do considering the magnitude and seriousness of the situation.
Joy, I have done little except to observe the efforts of you and many others here on Investigative media. There are many professionals that post here–those are the ones that deserve the credit and notoriety if there is any. Most if not all either shun being in the limelight or could care less. However, your efforts had to be publicized and you have been one of the major players in revealing the truths involved in this.
Your photographs show the terrain exactly where those men died on the very morning before they drew their last breaths. Your many other photos of that day show vital information, the old grader as it was, Donut’s location before burning, the location of the GMHS vehicles, and on and on. Your vigilant and constant investigation, requesting of numbers of FOIA reports, talking to people involved, seeking out additional photos and evidence, trips and even attending conferences as far as Washing DC with many other things you have done including becoming a qualified fire fighter are to the point of obsession. But that obsession has only added to getting at the truth of what killed those men–something that many do not want public. To label you as a clown is absurd and laughable–the clown would be the one attempting to disparage your work.
We may err in some of our estimations but the purpose and direction is proper and good. I dare say Mr. Kelly would not call Gary, RTS, WTKTT, Woodsman, Norb, Dr. Ted Putnam, John Daughterty, or any of those that post here with years of experience in the wild land fire fighting field or in investigations.
What has he done to further the truth? Who might he be–those are things I will not bother myself with–perhaps you have. I would suspect he like Willis would have been a good witness for Amanda at the Kangaroo court held in Prescott.
Heaviness yes concerning the loss of a loved one, especially a parent loosing a son or daughter. I know that by experience and that is something that weighs heavy for the rest of your life.
Your photos will remain forever as the reality of the GMHS tragedy. The last hike of the GMHS you took and the conditions and locations you took all that day will always be revelations of facts that can not be denied. They are part of the story necessary to understand the tragedy.
The information you present has helped me greatly to understand the tragedy. The many professionals with wild land fire fighting expertise have been able to use your information to help their understanding and investigations as to why such a tragedy could ever occur in wild land fire fighting. The loved ones will all come to appreciate the truth once it is fully known. Those young men did not deserve the careless way they were killed and this incident should never have been treated as an accident.
Certain the magnitude of error in killing those young heroes will continue to be followed until truth prevails causing the changes needed to prevent this type tragedy and the attending cover up.
In the interest of truth and public concern I can only applaud the efforts and on going concern and investigations as seen on Investigative Media. Joy has been a front runner but there are many others here to be appreciated as well.
Those comments by David Kelly were some months ago. I would invite him to comment here on Investigative Media–people here are always open to discussion and opinion and especially should he have some facts to add to the ongoing investigation concerning the Yarnell incident of June 30, 2013 that resulted in the deaths of 19 GMHS.
We won’t accuse him of being a wannabe limelighter by voicing what he thinks. I can take flack–have been there and done that–so if it would make him feel better to vent on me that is fine. I have no hard feelings against anyone –especially the loved ones who certainly have suffered their share. However the truth to what happened is the only thing that really matters even if it is harsh on a few that failed in their efforts to protect their crew–whose negligent actions I believe were the prime cause of their crew’s deaths.
When the full truth is out it will disparage a few but in the long run it will benefit many. The dead can not speak for themselves and only the evidence and the hard facts can speak for their needless deaths.
Apologies, again my many errors without proof reading–simply said, poor management, scanty investigation and Joy and others here are not clowns–but Kelly has his opinions–maybe he ought to look in the mirror to see what is looking back at him.
Joy—Something you said about the New York Times saying that GMHS had been down to the Glen Isla area working line–flyover photographs? We have seen few of those and especially near the time of the deaths. Whew, if that is a fact then they returned up that canyon does not make sense but photos won’t lie and if in fact there are photos of them at Glen Isla why did NYT not publish them?
Seems that NYT thing is speculation but perhaps someone was near Glen Isla doing a line and perhaps a burn as well. Damn, it would be great if some of these wild land fire fighters involved would come forward here and let us know more–do the WTKTT thing and remain anonymous if you prefer–let the pros here determine if what you say has credence–just don’t be gutless, this information is vital to the loved ones, to the public and is really your duty and respect to human decency to get the truth out even if it requires anonymity.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&preview=20130630_160204.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Wtktt or RTS-
could you help me with a homeowner’s account and I think this photo of Brendan helps to set the moment at the time attached to this photo says June 30, 2013 4:02PM.
then to explain to this homeowner using this photo to help them understand the smoke is way out in the distance as shown here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACBq97DC_WBHNu7MeMwj7TOa/Photos%20and%20Video/Christopher%20MacKenzie%20cell%20phone%20photos?dl=0&preview=IMG_2737.JPG&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&preview=20130630_160206.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
another picture of the smoke from Donut’s file.
I am going through old emails because I have to wait for the site to investigate what happened to my site for the official report sooooo I am trying to show public photos only not private ones so you anonymous folks are okay I am not resorting there just want to place emphasis on what’s out there not the stuff not yet out there so can we say Donut’s pics match the fire behavior and smoke that matches the MacKenzie pics out past the Shrine Old Grader areas and not near your home, homeowners and yes some of you are going to say “come on, Joy … we showed you our stuff so how can you even write all this … what Joy??? … you saw it …”
KEEP IN MIND HOMEOWNERS until YOU SIGN A RELEASE to me your photos are just THAT “behind the scenes” and so I need to keep it as “shelved” information until you sign off permissions. Your accounts matter yet they matter “public” so we all can properly assess information and especially those near crucial areas. So let the world answer you about Donut’s photos versus me. I am going through old emails and if I see something the world can assist with than I will post it.
3957 Sunday, June 30, 2013, 4:35:06 PM
Thomas Woodley Records Request 9-10-14\A08-20130630BlueRidgeHotshotPhotosVideos\Yarnell-Wardemups
I really want to see what the public views in my records this photo again that was taken and where they assume it lays out there on the spur roads of that area?
Figure 27 on this link:
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/07/22/Are-these-numerous-up-to-now-unrevealed-photos-audio-and-videos-posted-here-sufficient-evidence-to-answer-whether-there-was-a-Firing-Operation-on-the-afternoon-of-June-30-2013-in-the-Sesame-Street-and-Shrine-area-that-influenced-YH-Fire-structure-loss-and-the-GMHS-fatalities
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/07/17/Was-the-June-30-2013-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-As-Tragic-As-It-Was-Trying-To-Teach-Us-Something-Other-Than-Lessons-Learned
in the link above,
Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 9:03 PM, a private discussion I was having led to a return reply:
“The ‘yellow sightline’ goes right down Lakewood, and then right over that ‘pile of rocks’ that
is clearly visible down the street there… and then it continues on all way out to the Weaver Ridge.
The FIRELINES seen through the ‘smoke’ are out there in that ‘middle bowl’, and advancing towards Glen Ilah.
Keep in mind that 4:08 PM would have ( supposedly ) been 4 minutes AFTER the Granite Mountain
Hotshots left the ‘safe black’… and they were already walking SOUTH towards the box canyon.”
and On Jul 16, 2018 8:07 PM:
“Zoom in on the smoke.
You can see FLAMES and FIRELINES through the smoke.
I’m looking more closely at that right now and determing exactly where those visible FIRELINES were, at 4:08 PM.”
——————-
The green fence posts on left IS retired deceased fire chief Pete Andersen’s old home 23186 S Lakewood Dr
———————————–
We have been recently trying to figure out how to bridge sensitive accounts to what is out there and these homeowners want you RTS and WTKTT’s take on the times and photos on that link and can you state or help them understand the fire behavior they saw in front of them to help time stamp what moments later destroyed their lives and as well nineteen mens … just sharing on behalf of some homeowners from old emails so at least I did that when I failed to do it when I first got it – was lost in SPAM box.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on September 14, 2019 at 8:04 am
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> Wtktt or RTS-
>>
>> could you help me with a homeowner’s account and I think this photo of
>> Brendan helps to set the moment at the time attached to this photo
>> says June 30, 2013 4:02PM.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&preview=20130630_160204.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Just to let you know… I am not ignoring this request.
I’m taking “another look” myself at those 3 McDonough photos that he took looking west from Highway 89 at exactly 4:02 PM on June 30, 2013.
But for now… YES… the timestamps on all the photos that Brendan took with his network-connected Samsung smartphone can definitely be trusted.
He took those three photos looking WEST out the window of the GM Superintendent truck all within 2 seconds of each other.
One at 4:02:04 PM
One at 4:02:06 PM
One at 4:02:08 PM
More later.
I have not been able to get on here.
My site is still “under advanced legal investigation” and they said the content may have to be taken off and made new –
just waiting
yes, the entire site so just waiting and I was told to not work on “drafts” currently so going through old emails and noted the video in this link:
h t t p :// archive.nytimes.c o m/w w w.nytimes. c o m/2013/07/07/us/a-painful-mix-of-fire-wind-and-questions.html
there is other “burn scars” out there but please take a look at this photo:
“A July 3 aerial view of the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill fire, which claimed the men’s lives. Fire retardant, seen as a reddish line visible on the right, helped protect parts of the town.”
pay attention of the unburned fuel gap and where …
———————————————————————————-
inquiry to Yarnell Video you made
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 8:23 AM
From: Arizona.Desert.Walker Arizona.Desert.Walker@ protonmail. c om
To: [email protected] jeremy@ blueshirt. c om
h t t p ://archive.nytimes.c o m/www.nytimes.c o m/2013/07/07/us/a-painful-mix-of-fire-wind-and-questions.html
Good Morning Jeremy.
Your ‘flyover’ graphic originally accompanied your NYT article about Yarnell that ran on July 6, 2013, just 6 days after the tragedy ( when there was still little to no information available about what happened ).
Would you please explain why NYT came to the conclusions that the GMHS were at the BSR (Helms) and then went to the Deployment Site as shown in the video insert.
This is contrary to what the SAIT-SAIR concluded.
In the original July 6, 2013, NYT article… right above the embedded ‘flyover video’…NYT authors wrote the following…
“As the thunderstorm approached, the men were digging a trench near the Glen Ilah subdivision southwest of Yarnell, trying to protect its homes.”
Did you and your reporters talk to someone we haven’t talked to yet? Do you all know something we don’t?
How could NYT print that unless they had some evidence that’s what GM was doing? Re-look that video and its insert where you said the men were at and headed …
Sincerely,
YH Fire Eyewitness
Joy A. Collura
—————–
also recently Tex and I were asked to do an episode of the Weather Channel HEROES AND SURVIVORS and as well Sonny was separately recently asked to do a documentary from another country.and I want the Weather Channel to really focus to taking a look at Forensic Weather ( not just in our neck of the woods – expand your horizons please ) Satellite images in the link above please take the time out and compare it to other entities data.
My site is still “under advanced legal investigation” and they said the content may have to be taken off and made new –
just waiting
yes, the entire site so just waiting and I was told to not work on “drafts” currently so going through old emails and noted the video in this link:
h t t p :// archive.nytimes.c o m/w w w.nytimes. c o m/2013/07/07/us/a-painful-mix-of-fire-wind-and-questions.html
there is other “burn scars” out there but please take a look at this photo:
“A July 3 aerial view of the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill fire, which claimed the men’s lives. Fire retardant, seen as a reddish line visible on the right, helped protect parts of the town.”
pay attention of the unburned fuel gap and where …
———————————————————————————-
inquiry to Yarnell Video you made
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 8:23 AM
From: Arizona.Desert.Walker Arizona.Desert.Walker@ protonmail. c om
To: [email protected] jeremy@ blueshirt. c om
h t t p ://archive.nytimes.c o m/www.nytimes.c o m/2013/07/07/us/a-painful-mix-of-fire-wind-and-questions.html
Good Morning Jeremy.
Your ‘flyover’ graphic originally accompanied your NYT article about Yarnell that ran on July 6, 2013, just 6 days after the tragedy ( when there was still little to no information available about what happened ).
Would you please explain why NYT came to the conclusions that the GMHS were at the BSR (Helms) and then went to the Deployment Site as shown in the video insert.
This is contrary to what the SAIT-SAIR concluded.
In the original July 6, 2013, NYT article… right above the embedded ‘flyover video’…NYT authors wrote the following…
“As the thunderstorm approached, the men were digging a trench near the Glen Ilah subdivision southwest of Yarnell, trying to protect its homes.”
Did you and your reporters talk to someone we haven’t talked to yet? Do you all know something we don’t?
How could NYT print that unless they had some evidence that’s what GM was doing? Re-look that video and its insert where you said the men were at and headed …
Sincerely,
YH Fire Eyewitness
Joy A. Collura
—————–
also recently Tex and I were asked to do an episode of the Weather Channel HEROES AND SURVIVORS and as well Sonny was separately recently asked to do a documentary from another country.and I want the Weather Channel to really focus to taking a look at Forensic Weather ( not just in our neck of the woods – expand your horizons please ) Satellite images in the link above please take the time out and compare it to other entities data.
**
** CAL FIRE BEING SUED OVER MATTHEW BURCHETT’S DEATH
It’s been just 1 year and 1 month since Draper City, Utah firefighter Matthew Burchett was killed ( on August 13, 2018 ) by a botched retardant drop at last year’s Mendocino Complex Fire in California.
Today, his widow and his son have jointly filed a wrongful death lawsuit against CAL FIRE and others.
Their wrongful death lawsuit seeks both financial and non-financial compensation/results.
Amounts are to be determined at trial.
The Salt Lake City Tribune
Article Title: Utah firefighter’s widow sues over California fire death
Published: Thursday, September 12, 2019 – By Taylor Stevens
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/09/12/utah-firefighters-widow/
From that article…
————————————————————————————————————
The widow of a Utah firefighter who was killed when a supertanker dropped nearly 20,000 gallons of fire retardant near his position fighting a Northern California fire has filed a lawsuit against CAL FIRE and the aircraft company for alleged negligence.
State investigators found 42-year-old battalion chief Matthew Burchett, of Draper, died last August when fire retardant was dropped from an aircraft flying barely above the treetops because spotters mistakenly sent it on a route too close to the ground.
The retardant, dropped from a Boeing 747 mistakenly flying only 100 feet overhead, struck with such force it uprooted an 87-foot tree that fell on Burchett. The pilots had failed to recognize that there was a hill in the flight path, according to a report by The Associated Press detailing the findings of the Green Sheet report by the state’s firefighting agency.
Burchett, who was one of one of about 40 Utah firefighters from seven agencies deployed to help a state facing the most intense wildfires in the nation, died later at Ukiah Valley Medical Center.
The Draper resident had years of experience with wildfires, beginning to work seasonally with the Unified Fire Authority’s wildland division in 1995 after he graduated from Judge Memorial High School the year before.
He eventually became a full-time firefighter with Unified Fire and reached the rank of captain. He responded to house fires and medical emergencies like every city firefighter but also continued battling wildfires. He’d traveled to blazes in California twice before, in 2009 and 2016.
The lawsuit, filed Wednesday by Heather Burchett, the firefighter’s widow, and Griffin Burchett, his son, says Burchett was in a “safe zone” when the retardant was dropped.
The defendants failed to properly warn or protect ground forces, including Burchett, from the “unreasonably hazardous conditions,” the lawsuit alleges, and improperly executed the retardant drop, thereby breaching their owed “duties of care.”
The plane and its pilot “had not performed drops in the area and was not familiar with the heavy vegetation and elevation changes along the flight path,” the lawsuit alleges. And the height from which the drop was performed was at “a much lower elevation than the required heights for such retardant drops.”
The plaintiffs are seeking non-economic damages in an amount to be determined at trial, for “the loss of Matthew Burchett’s love, companionship, care, assistance, protection, affection, society, moral support, training, guidance and intimate relations.”
They are also seeking an as-yet undetermined amount in economic damages, including for funeral, burial and litigation expenses as well as a loss of financial support and inheritance.
Cal Fire did not immediately comment on the lawsuit.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
——————————————————————————————————–
Here is a Fire Law Blog link to their lawsuit (Burchett vs. State of California and Supertanker Services. LLC and others)
( http://41af3k34gprx4f6bg12df75i.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2019/09/Burchett-v-Cal-Fire-US_DIS_CAED_2_19cv1812_Exhibit_A_state_court_Complaint.pdf )
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on September 8, 2019 at 9:55 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Here’s a bit more details for you:
First and foremost… thank you ( again ).
These “quotes” you have now posted ( including embedded descriptions like [he started crying again] ) seem to indicate you actually have either audio recordings of actual interviews with these people or perhaps, even written accounts akin to ‘Unit Logs’, or something.
Are a lot of these really ‘straight quotes’ from anything like that… or just a lot of paraphrasing from your own memory of conversations with “them”?
Just curious.
That being said/asked… there are some things in these new “quotes” that just don’t add up or present even more points of confusion.
All I can do is take them one-by-one, I guess.
Unless I screw up the formatting on this one, your “quotes” from these people are all in BOLDFACE below, and my comments ( and typical annoying questions ) are in-between.
And away we go…
>> “‘The closer people got to the Sesame Street and Shrine area…
>> there was a feeling of absolute panic as we pulled out of the area.’
You put an ellipse ( three dots ) in there between the two halves of that sentence. So is it to be read this way?
1. “The closer people got to the Sesame Street and Shrine area…” ( Something happened )
2. “there was a feeling of absolute panic as we pulled out of the area”.
The reason I ask is that, if you ignore the ellipse, the statement seems to imply that ‘they’ were ‘exiting’ the area via the Shrine Youth Camp exit route.
That doesn’t match other statements and it certainly doesn’t match other existing evidence.
I can certainly imagine there was “was a feeling of absolute panic as we pulled out of the area”… however they accomplished that.
But how did “they” ACTUALLY “pull out of the area”?
Via the Shrine Road / Youth Camp exit route?
OR
Via the Sesame Street to Lakewood / Manzanita exit route?
>> One group at the Helms / BSR said that “they could hear everything those guys were saying;
By ‘group’… are you still referring to one of the ‘firing groups’ in this mysterious ‘small Task Force’ that we seem to now be talking about?
You know… either one of the 2 Type 3 Engines and/or the 1 Type 1 Engine?
Or are you referring to some other ‘group’ that was “hearing everything those guys were saying”?
There is NO EVIDENCE of there ever being ANY ‘Type 3’ OR ‘Type 1′ Engines present “at the Helms / BSR”, including the Helms’ Security Camera footage.
Only the Type 6 Engines and crews that were officially part of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Task Force that afternoon.
Is it possible this “group” was simply NEAR the BSR… but never actually AT the BSR?
>> Marsh said that the Ranch isn’t that far from where he thought the guys are now …
Obviously the TIME matters here. Was this, perhaps, part of that 4:16 PM radio exchange where someone actually ASKED Granite Mountain “What’s your status right now”?
SIDENOTE: I would absolutely believe that Eric Marsh was constantly ‘mistaken’ about where Jesse Steed and the rest of the crew were after Marsh ordered them to come down. I have always maintained that Marsh MAY have thought they were makinig much better forward progress than they really were that afternoon. Marsh was out ahead… but he had made his journey alone and I believe he completely misjudged the TIME time it was going to take Jesse and the others to cover the same ground doing the usual Hotshot-single-file thing.
>> …he knew Marsh went down that ridge a few times before those guys had to deploy.”
I have no idea what this means. Which ridge? How many times ‘up and down’? When?
>> Even with strong winds, one firing group said “No spots, … absolute miracle
>> because the wind was howling parallel with the road they were on and
>> every now and then it would gust over the road and throw embers – but no spots …
>> and the engine was going fast and we had a hard time keeping up with it / them.’
“…the wind was howling parallel with the road they were on”.
Which ROAD? Sesame Street?
Any TIMEFRAME for this statement?
If they were having a “hard time keeping up with” the Engine then this would supposedly be after they had started the burnouts and one of the times they would have been walking BEHIND the Engine… yes?
>> The urgency and fear in the eyes of everyone on that road was unnatural in my opinion.
Same question as above. Which ROAD? Sesame Street?
>> It was burning in so fast … ripping right in.
Yes, it was.
And spotting ahead of itself across that ‘middle bowl’ to the point where area ignition started happening.
That’s why even if any of this ‘manual burnout’ stuff turns out to be true it will still remain difficult to prove whether it really mattered at all, or had anything to do with what eventually happened to the 19 GM Hotshots out in the box canyon.
>> We tied into a corner, a bunch of vehicles came out including BRHS and
>> the GMHS buggies … [he started crying again]…he felt much better lighting
>> to the corner of this road, this intersection, and because they saw GMHS rigs
>> and figured they were in them and out of the area.’
These statements just don’t add up ( even if they did make him cry again ).
“Tying into a corner” implies that they were ALREADY doing burnouts… and only THEN happened to witness the BRHS and GMHS vehicles ‘come out’, which also implies that they were AHEAD of such a convoy and saw it “pass by them”.
There are only two places where they could have seen this happen.
1. Somewhere along the Sesame Street route and out through Glen Ilah which the GM / BRHS convoy took as they were originally being ‘moved’ from the Sesame clearing area all the way over to the Shrine Road Youth Camp.
2. Somewhere along the dirt part of Shrine Road as the same GM / BRHS convoy left the Youth Camp and proceeded east on Shrine Road and then south to the Ranch House Restaurant.
As for (1)… ( GM / BRHS Convoy on Sesame Street )
Existing photographic evidence ( Christopher MacKenzie’s iPhone photos and Brendan McDonough’s Samsung SCH-I525 smartphone photos, all with accurate time/date settings ) prove that the GM / BRHS convoy left the Sesame clearing area and headed south on Sesame Street towards Glen Ilah right around 3:55:31 PM. That convoy then arrived all the way over at the Shrine Youth Camp right around 4:08 PM. At 3:55:31 PM, Christopher Mackenzie’s iPhone photo ( the one with the recent crossfade ) shows that there were NO BURNOUTS in progress anywhere in the Sesame Street or Lakewood/Manzanita area(s) at the time that GM / BRHS convoy exited that area. So it’s pretty much impossible that anyone could have been doing burnouts and ‘tying into a corner’ in THAT Sesame Street area and, at the same time, have seen the BR / GMHS convoy “come out” and/or “pass by” them.
As for (2)… ( GM / BRHS Convoy on Shrine Road )
Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd’s M2U0064 video is the one that captures the GM / BRHS convoy fully exiting from the Shrine Youth Camp and passing by Hulburd’s location in the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot. The Blue Ridge Crew Carriers pass his location at exactly 4:33:27 PM. They left the spot where they were staged at the Youth Camp about 60 seconds earlier, at 4:32:27 PM. There is no ‘corner’ between that spot at the Youth Camp and the Shrine of St. Joseph for anyone to have been ‘tying into’ with a burnout while also seeing that convoy “come out”.
So the above statement(s) about them both “tying into a corner” with a burnout AND seeing a GM / BRHS convoy “come out” and/or “pass by” just don’t seem to add up or match other existing evidence.
More information needed to sort this one out.
( Continued next ‘Reply’ due to single-post length limits )
( Continued from previous message )…
>> “The fire was gone, half mile or mile away from us within 5-10 minutes
>> of firing, uphill and gone.
Uphill… from WHERE? Still lacking enough actual location information to make any sense of statements like this.
>> “We all staged in our rigs listening to the TAC channels
Again… WHERE?
Once they ( as the quote above states ) ALL exited the area and ALL ended up “staged in our rigs”… WHERE were ( all ) at THAT point?
>> and then we heard the GMHS A/G heard chaos
If it was only AFTER they were ALL (quote) “staged in their rigs” ( somewhere? ) when they heard that final GM and Air-To-Ground “we are deploying” radio exchange captured in one of PNF employee Aaron Hulburd videos, then that means they were definitely NOT doing burnouts “up until the time of the GM burnover”, as has also been reported.
That final “We are deploying” radio exchange took place at 4:39 PM.
Is it possible that THIS is their ‘reference moment’ for the “18 to 20 minutes prior to that” thing for the START of the burnouts?
Since no one really knows the exact moment of the ‘burnover’ itself… perhaps they are just using that final radio exchange as their ‘base reference’ time?
If so… that would put the ( supposed ) START of the burnouts back even earlier in time to somewhere around/between 4:19 and 4:21 PM.
>> “The entire [Engine] Crew, including our Captain, felt like there
>> was no air in the Engine, like we couldn’t breathe.
>> Our Captain said he felt like he was gonna have a panic attack.
>>
>> The FF heard his Captain say: ‘We just f**king killed people.’
Something about these statements just doesn’t make sense.
Stick with me here for a moment.
If these FFs had NO IDEA where Granite Mountain even was circa the time they started doing their burnouts, and they had NO IDEA that they had left the safe black and were headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch… then how could they be so SURE ( at 4:39 PM when they simply heard GM’s deployment radio traffic ) that anything they just did had anything to do with what now seemed to be happening to GM, somewhere ‘out there’ on the fire?
Even after that ( final ) radio exchange… that remained the conundrum.
WHERE WAS Granite Mountain, at that moment?
WHERE were they actually ‘deploying’?
NO ONE seemed to have ANY real idea, even after that final radio exchange.
Even in his final radio transmission, Eric Marsh remained his usual ‘obtuse’ self and didn’t even clarify GM’s actual location. Marsh had already had at least 30+ seconds of solid radio exchange time with Air Attack John Burfield to make it CLEAR where they actually were… but Marsh still NEGLECTED to do that.
In that very, very final exchange… when even John Burfiend was TRYING to get an ACTUAL location out of Marsh and asked him “So you are on the south side of the fire, then?”… Marsh missed even that final opportunity to quickly say something like “600 yards west of Boulder Springs Ranch”… and all he said was the non-helpful “Affirm”.
So even though they might have heard Marsh simply ‘confirm’ that GM was somewhere on the SOUTH side of the fire at the time of that last transmission… that still wasn’t really any reason for them to immediately believe whatever they had been doing had anything to do with GM’s predicament ( at 4:39 PM ).
At least not sure enough for ANY of them to declare ( with certainty ) “We just f**king killed people.”
Is it possible the statements above are just sort of a ‘jumble’ of recollections, and it was sometime well AFTER they might have heard that final GM radio transmission that this Captain might have declared ( to his crew ) “We just f**king killed people.”?
You know… like a few hours later… when it started to become common knowledge at the scene WHERE the deployment site really was?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I agree with you here on this one: “There are times when it really almost
>> seems like this was the first fire that Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and/or
>> all of the GM Hotshots had ever been on… and it’s almost like they
>> ( collectively ) had NO IDEA what COULD happen… and so they were not
>> even taking the minimum actions necessary to even stay SAFE that day.”
>>
>> It’s as if Watch Out #4 (Unfamiliar with local factors influencing
>> weather and fire behavior) was firmly in place with a local Crew in
>> their own turf. It continues to baffle me …
Me as well.
I think you caught it… but just to be clear… what I was referring to when I said that it seems like they ( Marsh, Steed, +GM ) had “NO IDEA what COULD happen”, I wasn’t just referring to “what could happen” if/when you violate the rules of your profession and you “lose sight of the main fire” at the height of the burn cycle.
I was ALSO talking about how they ( Marsh, Steed, + GM ) SHOULD have been fully aware ( if they had any fires-near-towns experience at all ) that given the circumstances at that time… ALL of the structure protection people and/or freelancing FFs down around town WOULD be ‘freaking out’ and perhaps doing some crazy things… like “lighting shit up” all over the place on the outskirts of town in multiple ‘last-ditch efforts’ to protect structures.
Because that’s what they do. Especially when they are ‘freaking out’.
They ( Marsh, Steed +GM ) SHOULD have known that was another thing that “COULD happen” as they embarked on that risky move that day.
So for Marsh and Steed to have NOT taken EXTRA CARE to make SURE everyone who was anywhere near their intended destination knew EXACTLY where they were and what they were doing and what their ‘escape route’ really was in order to prevent a disaster that day just seems like the height of either no-experience… stupidity… or BOTH.
Death is no stranger to the wild land fire fighter, the miner and the logger. I have seen it a number of times in the years of my mining, I have seen it up close and mangled bodies at that, but I have never seen it like it happened at Yarnell to so many at once. That the facts of the Yarnell incident have yet to be completely known and understood is beyond understanding considering the magnitude and significance to the healing delayed to the loved ones and the importance to the safety of the future young wild land fire fighter.
It does sound as though there was a burn along Sesame Street and with the winds as they were and the denseness of the brush along with the dehydration and heat of the day any burn would move even faster than what Willis had stated as 11mph. In all truth, even a burn out at the Shrine could require less than 6 minutes to reach the Helms Ranch. And if one were started on Sesame Street it would be even quicker to spread toward the Helms and cut off the canyon that the GMHS crew were in. Consider it is somewhere in the neighborhood of only a mile or less from the Sesame Street dirt road to the Helms. Even at the stated 11mph movement of the fire if you want to believe it was that slow– the time to make a mile at that rate is only 5.45 minutes. If you are talking about a 30 minute time frame then those reports make sense.
What does not make sense is that the GMHS crew had even been ordered into a trap where such could happen. Certainly the Captain who was in charge of that burn would only know he had trapped those men after he learned too late of their location. As far as we know Marsh was giving vague descriptions of his location, and what seems to be the official reports if they can be believed–Marsh was giving the impression he was in the black?
I can say what Joy and I were witnessing even when the fire was moving to the Northeast toward Peeples Valley, it was trucking–and that was with little breeze and mostly by its own force. But add a 30-45 mph wind behind it and take it up a canyon where the slope is at anywhere from 10 to 20 degrees off level and add the chimney effect in that dehydrated and hot dense brush and you could see how five minutes could easily come down to 2 or 3 minutes in a mile. So any burn either on Sesame or at the Shrine would be a killer in any 30 minute time frame.
Yes and then we see the Forest Service training 21 year olds to be bosses of 20 men crews? The idea to me is unreal considering that a man in his mid 40’s had no concept of keeping his crew safe due to his limited was it 5 year experience as a wild land fire fighter?
Now I can only see that men of long term understanding should be in charge of the lives of a crew. To put a young man in that position would be an injustice not only to that person but a sure killer to the crew in a situation such as Marsh commandeered. The more we see these deaths in the wild land fire fighting profession, the more it becomes apparent that only those with long proven experience in wild land fire fighting should be there–I would want a RTS, a Woodsman or a Ted Putnam out there for my boss–not some shithead fellow trying to prove himself at the expense of my safety and life.
Death is no stranger to the wild land fire fighter and mostly it is to the young ones that depend on their bosses–and you can see all that book training and conference BS which might be helpful but has no value if it has not long experience to understand the nuances needed to keep the crew alive.
These are my opinions and I own up to them–I have seen too much death and dying in my 75 years–nothing good and especially when you see it needlessly done to the young heroes as we saw at Yarnell.
WTKTT–This story ties in with what I believe one of the few statements where Donut had told the truth about embers crossing the road as they were leaving. It describes what these men are talking about. That burn had to be a secondary burn to the Sesame Street burn and some time before Donut was on his way out with the GMHS Bus. The only possible burn they could have been doing would be off Sesame Street in this description. Since I know that area from hiking it so many times I was trying to understand what corner they were talking about. There is a fence line and corner close to Sesame Street that is part of the Helms Ranch and would be directly below the Ranch. That almost sounds like the corner they are talking about. And the description of going uphill about a half mile in five minutes would agree with what would be the area off Sesame Street dirt path and the area near Helms. A half mile from Sesame Street and that fire is already half way to Helms Ranch Area. Parallel or not to Sesame Street dirt path. as dense as the manzanita was in the area, that fire would take a route of its own to go up hill with the suction of that canyon and the heat vacuum created to advance it that way. The winds were squirrelly as well and you would have to know that those ridges on both sides of the death canyon would direct winds up the canyon even if they were more to the south as they encountered the mountain canyons. If you did visit the Sesame Street area as I had so many times then you could easily understand how a burn on that area would quickly advance up the mountain toward the Ranch and toward the two track above the Helms.
Before Joy and I left the two track we had watched that fire when it was headed in the opposite direction toward Peeples Valley. There was very little detectable wind–the calm before the storm. I asked her to time that fire as it was taking a route toward a mountain. This would be similar to what the fire would do going up toward the Helms only with its own power. I estimated the distance of travel to be about a half mile, likely a bit more from that long distance we were estimating. from where she started timing. It took about 14 minutes and that was on its own power to do that distance. Now with winds pushing it at 35-45 miles per hour and a funnel canyon to draw the fire, one can imagine how quickly that fire would moved up toward the GMHS location.
It stands to reason that their firing may have caught the GMHS crew but why the hell were they there in the first place. Certainly if Marsh were on a ridge then there are only two ridges in that canyon–the south ridge just above the Helms and the North Ridge that projected farther toward Sesame Street than the south ridge. It would stand to reason if he were on any ridge it would have been the South Ridge since that was their destination. Either Ridge was loaded with boulders, although the north ridge had some cleared area at the beginning and near the two track. Marsh would have likely been above the Helms and not too distant from the crew since he deployed with them. He likely had only three to five minutes to approach their location.
This is so damn sad and if you look at Joy’s photographs of that canyon that she took that very morning of their deaths and almost from the exact spot they died you can understand how they had no chance at all once that fire was in the Sesame Street area.
At 11 miles per hour that fire would be moving at a rate of 5.45 minutes to cover one mile. When we left over the mountain from the two track that fire had advanced some five miles or so from Donut’s location by the grader. Once reversed Donut had decided he better head toward the Grader area that he thought might be a safe area– and at that time he was rescued by Blue Ridge Supe. Smoke was bad but fire was not upon them yet so that fire was likely some three miles or so from GMHS area in the death canyon. That would be a 15 or 20 minute window if one could estimate where the GMHS crew was at that time. They may have still been on the two track as Donut escaped.
Somehow it makes sense that since the direction of the fire advance was toward Peeples Valley to the Northeast, there would have been burns set along Sesame Street and in the Shrine area. You would have wanted to burn out those areas to protect Glen Isla, the Helms and Yarnell. What they did not seem to anticipate was that the winds would take a reversal. Any way you look at it, certainly that GMHS crew was screwed over by their bosses that had put them in a situation they should never have been in the first place.
Oddly Joy and I had watched lightening strikes toward Prescott to the NE all morning. The GMHS crew was watching as well. Don’t they know that the storms in the higher elevations will cool the air and that cooled dense air wild then flow to the lower elevations –it was above 100 degrees F in the Yarnell area. That cold air from the NE was due to arrive at any moment and in the gushes it proved to be–35-45 mph when it did. Hillbilly and Cowboy Rick McKensie was their angel messenger when he said early morning when he met the GMHS crew at their rondevois in Peeples Valley. He warned “Boys don’t get caught down in that manzanita” and yet they did.
Those “hillbilly” safety rules are true life savers.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 29, 2019 at 6:54 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT
>>
>> The few WFs and FFs involved are fairly adamant on the “18 to 20 minutes
>> prior to the GMHS Burnover” as their firing operation timeframe.
So what time are these ‘fairly adamant’ people assuming the ‘GMHS Burnover’ was?
Are they basing their “18 to 20 minutes” on the accepted time of 4:42 PM, or something different?
20 minutes backwards from 4:42 PM would, of course, be 4:22 PM.
18 minutes backwards from 4:42 PM would, or course, be 4:24 PM.
So is it safe ( now ) to assume that this supposed firing operation would have begun sometime between 4:22 PM and 4:24 PM?
How long BEFORE that was it when they were supposedly ‘given the order’ to do the operation by some mysterious person? 2 minutes? 3 minutes? 5 minutes? More?
( You know me… details always matter ).
Also… recent IM poster Downhillndirect suggested that this operation continued right up through the time the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots burned to death.
Again, the accepted time for that was 4:42 PM.
To this day, that’s when the “bells are rung” on the anniversaries.
Does that mean, then, that whoever was participating in this burnout operation never exited the area at all and they, themselves, had to actually somehow survive the conflagration out there and, perhaps, perform their OWN ‘deployments’ somewhere out there… or were they able to ‘ride it all out’ without exiting the area in some location on Sesame Street?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I came across this YH Fire SAIT Drop Box link the other day from a
>> thread with you and Rocksteady that should definitely add fodder
>> to the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing Operations issue.
>> It’s loaded with excellent fire behavior photos in the June 30, 2013,
>> timeframe even though the metadata is really mucked up.
>>
>> This is the “read me.txt. from the Drop Box:
>>
>> “Rick Tham, a local resident, took these June 30, 2013 photos before
>> and while evacuating. Stewart Turner, the Type 1 FBAN on the Yarnell
>> Hill Fire, gave them to the Accident Investigation Team. The file
>> names for most of the photos begin “Yarnell Hill Fire june 28-30 2013.”
>> The earliest photo is stamped 6/29 at 10:28 am and the last is 6/30
>> at 4:59 pm. However, an email to Carrie Templin, member of the Accident
>> Investigation Team, states Tham took them just before and while
>> evacuating, which would have been June 30.”
>>
>> You refer to these two photos: “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 197.jpg”
>> and “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 198.jpg” … “were taken within
>> seconds of each other on the NORTH side of the fire on Sunday, June 30,
>> 2013 at around 3:21 PM”?
>>
>> So then, with non-existent metadata in these photos, I’m curious, how
>> you concluded the date and time on that photo?
>> And what program did you use to do that?
Well… first off… I’m not sure what you mean by “the metadata is really mucked up” and “non-existent metadata in these photos”.
The Rick Tham photos in the SAIT folder were analyzed ages ago and it was determined ( by Marti Reed, Calvin, myself and others ) that the metadata embedded in these photos IS accurate… but with one caveat.
Rick Tham was using TWO cameras on June 30, 2013.
A network-connected iPhone 4S, and a KONICA MINOLTA MAXXUM SD digital camera.
He was alternating between the two cameras most of the day.
The time/date stamps for the network-connected iPhone 4S photos in that folder can all be trusted as 100 percent accurate.
At times… Rick Tham would switch quickly between the iPhone 4S and the KONICA MINOLTA, and it is those times which then proved that his KONICA MINOLTA was, in fact, timestamping photos correctly that day.
But here comes the caveat.
Rick Tham’s KONICA MINOLTA may have had the TIME set correctly… but he had the wrong AM/PM value set. It was set to AM when it should have been PM.
That means that all the timestamps for all of Rick Tham’s KONICA MINOLTA photos ended up EXACTLY 12 hours behind the real time that day.
So that, in turn, made some of the DATE stamps wrong on some of his KONICA MINOLTA phots ( the ones taken before NOON the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013 ).
Example: Rick Tham’s KONICA MINOLTA photo “Yarnell Hill Fire june 28-30 019.JPG” has an embedded time of 23:58:57 ( Supposedly 11:58:57 PM on June 29, 2013 ). It was ACTUALLY taken just 1 minute and 3 seconds before NOON, on June 30, 2013, at exactly 11:58:57 AM that Sunday morning. But since his camera’s AM/PM settings were reversed, the camera DATE-stamped the image as June 29 instead of the real date of June 30.
For all the KONICA MINOLTA photos taken AFTER 12:00 PM NOON on Sunday, June 30, 2013, things get easier.
If the metadata timestamp says 4:31:37 AM… then just flip the AM to PM and that time of 4:31:37 PM is correct.
One of the best examples ( and proof ) that Rick Tham’s KONICA MINOLTA was, in fact, timestamping things correctly but with the AM/PM setting switched would be the following two images of his in that SAIT folder.
At exactly 4:07:56 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013… Rick Tham used his KONICA MINOLTA to take a picture of a water bucket drop being made by red/white helicopter 5KA ( 5 Kilo/Alpha ) in the Sickles Ranch Road area. This time matches exactly a video clip taken of the same drop by the AFUE team from their spot on the side of Hays Ranch Road, so that, itself, is additional verification that the KONICA timestamps are correct.
That photo ended up in the SAIT folder with filename: “Yarnell Hill Fire june 28-30 2013 218.JPG”
Rick Tham then QUICKLY switched to his iPhone 4S to take another photo at that exact same time at the exact same location he just took the 4:07:56 PM KONICA MINOLTA photo.
He was able to make this ‘switch’ between his KONICA and his iPhone in just 12 seconds.
That iPhone 4S photo he was able to take just 12 seconds later also ended up in the SAIT folder with filename “110.JPG” and a timestamp of 4:08:08 PM, just 12 seconds after he took the 4:07:56 PM KONICA MINOLTA photo.
So yea… Rick Tham’s KONICA MINOLTA photos’ embedded metadata CAN be trusted.
It’s already been verified against his ‘iPhone’ photo timestamps in the same folder.
All you have to do is remember that he had his AM/PM setting wrong, and the metadata time/date stamps in all the KONICA MINOLTA photos are EXACTLY 12 hours BEHIND the real time.
WTKTT,
Addressing the firing operation(s) questions first and probably less than to your satisfaction.
As I posted, these ‘fairly adamant’ people stated nothing specific about when the ‘GMHS Burnover’ was. As I posted, they said the firing operation was in the “18 to 20 minutes” timeframe. I never asked and they never said about “the accepted time of 4:42 PM, or something different.”
They never said and I never asked if it was “20 minutes backwards from 4:42 PM would, of course, be 4:22 PM.” And they never said and I never asked if it was “18 minutes backwards from 4:42 PM would, or course, be 4:24 PM.”
I find these timeframes to be credible.
Based on what they said, I would think that it “… is … safe ( now ) to assume that this supposed firing operation would have begun sometime” AROUND (not between) “4:22 PM and 4:24 PM.” I wasn’t there, so basing times off anecdotes within the allowable Hearsay Exceptions.
They never said and I never asked “how long BEFORE that was it when they were supposedly ‘given the order’ to do the operation by some mysterious person. 2 minutes? 3 minutes? 5 minutes? More?”
They said the firing operation direction was given by some ‘unidentified WF overhead’ if I recall. This WF was somewhat chastised by a WF colleague for his willing actions under those conditions and he acknowledged that he should have been more discerning. I think he gave some kind of ‘heat of the moment’ response to justify his actions. And no idea on the timeframe.
I wasn’t there, and they never said on WHEN to begin firing, so once again basing times off anecdotes within the allowable Hearsay Exceptions.
Yes indeed … details always matter, however, the details in this case are more ambiguous, more general under the circumstances. And we are just going to have to expect and accept that it’s going to be that way until someone comes forward with something else or some other evidence is discovered.
Yes, “recent IM poster Downhillndirect suggested that this operation continued right up through the time the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots burned to death.” … of which “.. the accepted time for that was 4:42 PM.”
I give little credence to when “the ‘bells are rung’ on the anniversaries.”
The timeframe I use is between then and 4:48 PM.
To me, it means “… that whoever was participating in this burnout operation” clearly “exited the area” as they progressed along with the firing operation(s). There was NO “surviv[ing] the conflagration out there” and NO “perform[ing] their OWN ‘deployments’ somewhere out there” and NO “‘rid[ing] it all out’ without exiting the area in some location on Sesame Street.” These WFs and FFs lit the fire(s) that became the conflagration; and their expressed anxiety and discomfort was fairly evident with the things said regarding the weather and fire behavior conditions as they were burning.
It sounded like a firing operation where your burners progress along burning and your holders – if you have or need them – progress along behind you, holding the line, picking up spot fires, etc. However, in one anecdote, the Engine was placed out in front of the burner(s), which reveals to me their lack of wildland fire experience, or at least firing operations experience.
There certainly are times to have holders out in front, however, you have to have the right weather / fire behavior conditions, the right resources, and the actual need for them.
It’s safe to say that there was no intent to do harm or otherwise ill intent by those WFs and FFs performing the firing operation. However, there was a clear lack of communications from BOTH the GMHS and those performing the firing operation. The negligence was the GMHS supervisors abdicating their required supervisory responsibilities of providing for the safety and welfare of those in their charge.
Everyone “knew” that the GMHS was in the black, in their Safety Zone based on their numerous radio transmissions with overhead and other resources. The firing operation had been discussed over the radio between Crews and OPS and declared not an option by the Crews.
And the GMHS allowed only a few of the Crew supervisors to monitor and talk on the Command, TAC, and A/G channels. Based on previous fire assignments, they were also known to practice the unsafe habit of failing to directly inform their supervisors of their actions, locations(s), intentions, etc.
On the communication issue addressed in both Fire Order #7 and Watch Out #7, there is somewhat of a paradox as well as a watch out within the Watch Outs. Watch Out #7 cautions against having “No communications” with your adjoining forces. Neither the GMHS nor those involved in the firing operation(s) communicated what was occurring with their respective “adjoining forces,” whether it was due to the “fog of war” or (un)intentional, continuation bias, or Inattentional Bias, or whatever it was …
A lot of WFs and FFs AND Supervisors really f**ked up!
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on September 6, 2019 at 2:07 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Addressing the firing operation(s) questions first and
>> probably less than to your satisfaction.
At this point… ( and in this bizarre game of hide-and-seek )… I’ll take any ‘answers’ I can get.
At least you are willing to respond regarding all this… so THANK YOU. I mean it.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> As I posted, these ‘fairly adamant’ people stated nothing specific
>> about when the ‘GMHS Burnover’ was.
>>
>> As I posted, they said the firing operation was in the “18 to 20 minutes”
>> timeframe. I never asked and they never said about “the accepted
>> time of 4:42 PM, or something different.”
Okay. Thanks.
Maybe the next time you talk to “THEM” you should ask.
It’s important.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> They never said and I never asked “how long BEFORE that was it
>> when they were supposedly ‘given the order’ to do the operation
>> by some mysterious person”
>>
>> They said the firing operation direction was given by some
>> ‘unidentified WF overhead’ if I recall.
Again, thanks.
And again… next time you talk to “THEM”… I would suggest ASKING about this.
Also important.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> This WF was somewhat chastised by a WF colleague for his willing actions
>> under those conditions and he acknowledged that he should have been more
>> discerning.
“should have been more discerning”?
No shit, Sherlock.
Given the fact that 19 men ended up burning to death and it MAY have been partly because of his “willing actions”… that might be the understatement of the year.
It’s a little bigger than just “Oops… my bad!”
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I think he gave some kind of ‘heat of the moment’ response to justify
>> his actions.
I would have thought he might have just fallen back on the standard “fog of war” get-out-of-accountability-free-card explanation… but to each his own.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Yes indeed … details always matter, however, the details in this case are
>> more ambiguous, more general under the circumstances. And we are
>> just going to have to expect and accept that it’s going to be that way
>> until someone comes forward with something else or some other
>> evidence is discovered.
But it also sounds like “THEY” actually MIGHT know some more details and “THEY” just MIGHT be willing to share… but in your various contacts with “THEM” you simply haven’t bothered to ASK them certain things.
Give it a try next time you talk to “THEM”.
They might be perfectly willing to share more details but the are just waiting for someone to ASK “THEM” the right questions.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Yes, “recent IM poster Downhillndirect suggested that this operation
>> continued right up through the time the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots
>> burned to death.” … of which “.. the accepted time for that was 4:42 PM.”
>> I give little credence to when “the ‘bells are rung’ on the anniversaries.”
>> The timeframe I use is between then and 4:48 PM.
See above ( and my original question about ‘burnover’ TIME ).
If YOU give “little credence” to the accepted burnover time of 4:42 PM, then maybe so do “THEY”… and this “18 to 20 minutes prior to that” thing might be based more on ( in your own words ) “between then ( 4:42 PM ) and 4:48 PM”.
Just ask “THEM” next time you talk to “THEM”.
What TIME are “THEY” basing their “18 to 20 minutes prior to that” on?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> To me, it means “… that whoever was participating in this burnout
>> operation” clearly “exited the area” as they progressed along with
>> the firing operation(s).
>>
>> There was
>> NO “surviv[ing] the conflagration out there” and
>> NO “surviv[ing] their OWN deployments somewhere out there” and
>> NO “rid[ing] it all out without exiting the area in some location
>> on Sesame Street.”
Okay. So… if they were laying fire down down even right up until the moment the 19 GM Hotshots were burning to death… but were still ( themselves ) able to make it out of the area…
Then WHERE did they all go ( after that )?
At last count… we are talking about basically a small TASK FORCE consisting of at least 2 Type 3 ( Large ) Engines and another ( Large ) Type 1 Engine.
That’s easily at least a DOZEN firefighters. Perhaps more.
WHERE did they all go once they stopped doing the burnouts?
If you haven’t asked “THEM” that question either ( so far )… give that a shot as well next time you talk to “THEM”. It’s also important to know.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> These WFs and FFs lit the fire(s) that became the conflagration; and
>> their expressed anxiety and discomfort was fairly evident with the
>> things said regarding the weather and fire behavior conditions as
>> they were burning.
What “things said”… “as they were burning”?
Said to WHO? You?… when YOU were talking with “THEM”?
Or said “at the time” to someone in fire command?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It’s safe to say that there was no intent to do harm or
>> otherwise ill intent by those WFs and FFs performing the
>> firing operation. However, there was a clear lack of
>> communications from BOTH the GMHS and those performing
>> the firing operation. The negligence was the GMHS supervisors
>> abdicating their required supervisory responsibilities of
>> providing for the safety and welfare of those in their charge.
I believe I have already said this… but YES… given the circumstances that day… if there was EVER a time when a DIVS ( Eric Marsh ) who was trying to move his only ground resource ( GMHS ) from one division to another at a critical time should have made DOUBLE / TRIPLE sure the “way WAS clear and would REMAIN clear”… and that no nervous nellies in any structure protection group or errant ( perhaps freelancing ) Task Force were going to start “lighting shit up” anywhere near their intended destination… it was THAT afternoon.
There are times when it really almost seems like this was the first fire that Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and/or all of the GM Hotshots had ever been on… and it’s almost like they ( collectively ) had NO IDEA what COULD happen… and so they were not even taking the minimum actions necessary to even stay SAFE that day.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> A lot of WFs and FFs AND Supervisors really f**ked up!
Yep.
And according to the offical SAIT investigation report… it’s perfectly OK to ‘fuck up’ just as long as you don’t do anything wrong. Right?
WTKTT,
Here’s a bit more details for you:
“‘The closer people got to the Sesame Street and Shrine area … there was a feeling of absolute panic as we pulled out of the area.’
One group at the Helms / BSR said that “they could hear everything those guys were saying; Marsh said that the Ranch isn’t that far from where he thought the guys are now … he knew Marsh went down that ridge a few times before those guys had to deploy.”
Even with strong winds, one firing group said “No spots, … absolute miracle because the wind was howling parallel with the road they were on and every now and then it would gust over the road and throw embers – but no spots … and the engine was going fast and we had a hard time keeping up with it / them.’
The urgency and fear in the eyes of everyone on that road was unnatural in my opinion. It was burning in so fast … ripping right in. We tied into a corner, a bunch of vehicles came out including BRHS and the GMHS buggies … [he started crying again]. … he felt much better lighting to the corner of this road, this intersection, and because they saw GMHS rigs and figured they were in them and out of the area.’
“The fire was gone, half mile or mile away from us within 5-10 minutes of firing, uphill and gone.
“We all staged in our rigs listening to the TAC channels and then we heard the GMHS A/G heard chaos
“The entire [Engine] Crew, including our Captain, felt like there was no air in the Engine, like we couldn’t breathe.
Our Captain said he felt like he was gonna have a panic attack.
The FF heard his Captain say: ‘We just f**king killed people.’
I agree with you here on this one: “There are times when it really almost seems like this was the first fire that Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and/or all of the GM Hotshots had ever been on… and it’s almost like they ( collectively ) had NO IDEA what COULD happen… and so they were not even taking the minimum actions necessary to even stay SAFE that day.”
It’s as if Watch Out #4 (Unfamiliar with local factors influencing weather and fire behavior) was firmly in place with a local Crew in their own turf. It continues to baffle me …
If they were seeing GMHS rigs then they could not have been at the Shrine area–they would have to have been on the Sesame St. dirt path somewhere likely to NW of the rigs seeing them leaving the area then following the rigs out as they burned. Whew, what heavy burden to carry yet necessary to unload so the truth is known. In those winds and conditions it would take only minutes to cut off the GMHS crew from Sesame dirt road.
More must be known to know the true story. Bless those people telling the real truth–a burden no person should carry.
Reply to Charlie post on September 11, 2019 at 1:18 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> If they were seeing GMHS rigs then they could
>> not have been at the Shrine area–they would
>> have to have been on the Sesame St. dirt path
>> somewhere likely to NW of the rigs seeing them
>> leaving the area then following the rigs out as
>> they burned.
Perhaps… but the curious part of the following statement attributed to one of these FF’s is the “a bunch of vehicles came out” part…
Here’s that particular “quote” again…
We tied into a corner, a bunch of vehicles came out including BRHS and the GMHS buggies … [ he started crying again ]…he felt much better lighting to the corner of this road, this intersection, and because they saw GMHS rigs and figured they were in them and out of the area.
So it wasn’t just that they saw the GM and BRHS vehicles leaving the area… like from the NW. and headed AWAY from them. The specific phrase “bunch of vehicles CAME OUT” implies that they were BETWEEN where the vehicles were staged, and where they were headed, and that they saw this convoy PASS BY them. ( sic: COME OUT ).
If that quote is true… then that limits the places they even COULD have been in order to have seen that convoy ( quote ) “come out”.
WTKTT–with your keen observation there it has to mean they were directly below the GMHS crew and almost directly below the Boulder Ranch. Joy has photos of the GMHS Buggy and its location was about a half mile to 3/4 mile up the Sesame Street dirt trail once the pavement is ended. Whew if they did a burn between the location of the GMHS Buggy then under those late conditions it would be under 5 minutes reaching the Helms’ Boulder Ranch and would definitely cut off any possibility of escape for the GMHS other than if they made a quick run to the south and centered themselves in the boulders about 70 yards south of where they deployed. Everything from Sesame Street dirt road to boulder was heavy in manzanita and up hill–a fire line set along that path would go up that chimney canyon and up that side of the Weavers at an alarming rate. I could see the Willis statement of 11 mph if it were coming south since that would be parallel and generally level going that way but going up that Chimney with 30-45mph winds would be likely more in the range of a 25mph advance. No way any hotshot had a chance outrunning that in that dense brush–horror of horrors.
So our President had repealed the clean water act–meaning that farmers which now a days are generally giant corporation entities will be able to use pesticides and the Phos Chek twin fertilizer compounds next to water sources. The results of course will be increased cancer rates and increased dead aquatic life and ocean dead zones.
It also means any measure to address the issues involved in dumping retardant near residences or recognizing any effects of retardant would be thwarted by this White House pollution supporter. Maybe he has not looked at the results of fertilizers, phosphates, and chemicals upon the health of the people, the fauna, the ocean flora, and the environment. He has never looked at fire fighter health issues off the chart from these retardant chemicals and plastics that emit their poisons both from burning and leaching into the soils. He certainly has not looked into the effects on elderly deaths and health of individuals after the massive dumping of retardant around Yarnell–no he judges health of the nation and world by the dollar sign and considers the common man a loser if his income is not in the top 5% of the nation.
Hitler had the same attitude–he raped the environment for his wants and used his people like so many cattle to be put to the slaughter to meet what he believed to be a greater end–the world rule of the superior Germanic blood. So America is now in the same process of the greater end–making America Great again–superior to all nations with its people and environment so many cattle to be used to that end and the environment again used without respect.
Some of us would incline to be more respectful of the health of the nation and its environment and judge it less by its wealth in monetary terms. We indeed need a strong military in these times but this non sense of polluting to foster corporate profits shows a blatant disregard for humanity and the earth. Yet it shows how a slogan can sway the minds of a great part of the masses to allow criminal acts against humanity and the environment.
Fortunately there are a few thinkers and a few who would go against the idea that reputation is everything–they would as in the Yarnell incident challenge those that would hide the truth to further their reputations as men/women who preformed without human error and whose actions can never be challenged and whose errors can never be exposed.
The situation is grim, yet generally people in this country are well enough educated to understand issues that need to be addressed and do not believe truth trumps Trump based ideas concerning pollution and slogans to direct people away from facts.
The heroes in the end will be those you read here on IM and like sites that go after the details and facts of what was and what will be. I could list their names but that is needless–they are simply those willing to go the extra mile to get at what happened and what will happen if facts are not faced.
And of course that should read Truth trump Trump and anything or anyone fostering false ideas. That we all make errors is certain as I just did in my writing without proof reading–The greatest error is when a person, especially a leader can go forward like a god and never admit to his humanity. Hitler, Trump, Mao se Dung, Kim Jong-un, Putin, Castro and the like show that a great majority of today’s leaders consider themselves beyond reproach. It filters down even to lower levels such as we saw with the leaders at the Yarnell fire debacle. And should you look at the leaders of the chemical giants, it is like looking at a who’s who of the nations greedy.
Intelligence has little to do with truth in some circles. Some of the worlds most prolific psychopaths are in the highest IQ ranges. Their cunning keeps them undetected and getting them out from under their blanket of lies is no easy project.
It will always be OK to fuck up as long as it continues to be OK to cover up the fuck up. The habit continues due to fear of exposure and since the blame goes to the higher levels we will continue to see the redactions, mum orders, threats and lies to keep those high level reputations intact.
Thanks RTS and WTKTT for exposing those criminal acts that are bound to cause continuing harm and death to the wild land fire fighter that has his safety almost totally contingent on his superior officers to keep him/her safe.
At the least, these exposures will forewarn the young fire fighter that his safety will almost totally depend upon his own wits, not the expertise of some wannabe wild land fire fighter boss.
Welcome to the new world that I am not much longer to be a witness to. It will be an interesting journey–much more interesting and dangerous than my 75 year journey on this earth has been.
We have come a long way from my tent living as a child where even a transistor radio was a rare thing and although television had come out not long after WW2 and by the early 50’s many homes had TV, I did not see one until after high school graduation in 1961. It was still radio for us and I actually never owned one even after discharge from the Army in 1968. In fact, I finally got one here at Tex’s Ranch–a big sucker–50 incher–$259 at Business Supply. They had the same for up to several thousand dollars but this one does just about everything the expensive ones do and my viewing does not require all the bells and whistles an expert might want.
Who would ever expect I can walk around with a phone in my pocket and anyone with any expertise in electronics can know exactly where I am in the world–how they located me when Charlie shot me in the back with the 12 guage. And I am certain they can hear my conversation even if my phone is off and are able to look at my face right though this 27 inch computer monitor if they so desire. Maybe my disparaging remarks about Trump and his getting rid of the clean water act have me on some sort of list–political enemy number 500,000 or whatever low number I might be assigned. But the Democrats will have me on a good list–yet either way I am an independent and last election it was a no vote on my part. So what attention does one get there? Well I suggest I am not important enough for any attention and I like that idea.
I was able to do a 6 mile hike-3 out and 3 back yesterday –I wanted to see a structure that far away to the south of me. There is no road there so I walked it. It looked to be an adobe casita from here but when I got there it was a cement tank much like the one Joy saved a wild cat from near her home in Congress, Arizona. She threw a log in that dry tank so the cat could climb out. A good heart that lady.
But this dry tank had no water or cat in it either–a few beer cans from times past from people hiking there and some bullet marks in the cement to where someone was trying out a high powered rifle. There was a well casing and pipe broken off and a foundation where years past someone had resided there for a few short years. The trash around told me it was likely in the early 4o’s and later than the abandoned well about two miles east of that tank. There someone had a well and the connector fittings to the wooden succor rod had rusted so badly that part of the flanges were gone. The wood itself had completely rotted away and the brass pins that hold the wood in the fitting were all that was left. I wondered who the cowboys and outlaws that must have visited that place and resided for a time were. Maybe even Billy the Kid or Pat Garrett who by the way was killed by a shot gun ambush on a ranch near Las Cruces, NM –maybe near where I live now. That evidence told me that people had a wooden shack there, likely a cowboy bunk house some hundred years ago and likely abandoned more than 50 years before.
Today we have the most intelligent computers–something I am typing on–that can access information at the speed of light and solve problems as fast. In fact the most intelligent ones have determined that the only solution to saving the earth is to get rid of humans. Their intelligence is beyond our own and soon they will be able to replicate themselves–hopefully we will have shut off valves in place since to their way of thinking we are bad for the earth health. I wonder if they have looked at Trump getting rid of the clean water act–and a prime environmental polluter supporter. He might be on their most wanted list.
So I did make a good 6 mile hike and spotted an Indian knife and a chip where one had made an arrowhead. I left them there–evidence they were here and owned the land before we killed them off and took it–well after the Spaniards and Mexicans had killed what they could of the Apache tribes.
Sadly we had a few bad Irish–one guy named Kelly when Mexicans were paying for Apache scalps was turning in quite a few. The Mexicans quit paying him after a while because he was turning in too many. It was thought he was mistaking Mexicans for Apaches–maybe too much rot gut had messed up his vision and it is hard to tell a Mexican scalp from an Apache scalp.
The world has now entered the world of every thing is known and everything is under control as certain leaders would want it. Soon you will be getting a chip similar to what your dog has–just walk into the grocery store–the scanner will scan your purchase and you and all you do is walk out –the scanner will automatically deduct your purchase from your bank account–no plastic card needed–all your info will be on that chip embedded in you. And when the blue coat stops you for speeding, his scanner will give your records, status, etc and automatically tell you when you need to see the judge or if not deduct your fine right on the spot.
Life will be interesting as progress evolves, we will have mechanical wild land fire fighters and better insulation than the flimsy safety blankets now available. Those expensive robots need good protection for the electronics–and like the future robot warriors–they will be able to endure things a human can not. And this is not imagination–que sera, que sera.
Ha–on todday’s hike I had the new white German Shephard along. She is only 8 months old so learning the country ways. Yesterday’s hike she was barking at a tall mesquite tree that I thought either had a rattle snake under it or some baby crows in the nest up high in the tree. So no snake, I did not inspect the nests and so she followed me off. But today, she was barking toward a prickly pear cactus so I was certain it had to be a snake there. But my inspection found none or in the grass about the cactus. Finally she got up close and I realized she was barking at the cactus itself. They do look like some sort of animal with the mickey mouse ears but once she stuck her nose into the cactus she realized this is a bad creature and backed off. A city dog takes some learnin’ about the ways of the outback and it took a few cactus needles to inform her to leave it be.
I was thinking of the GMHS city fire fighters–damn don’t you think they needed some more wild land fire fighting experience-especially their bosses–know when to fold and know when to hold.
Experience is the ultimate teacher.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on September 3, 2019 at 4:44 pm
>> RTS said
>>
>> WTF is happening lately with these Hybrid FFs… getting burned over…
WTF indeed.
Regarding what just happened to Okanogan County VFD Assitant Chief Christian Johnson…
Just slightly more than 1 year ago, on August 13, 2018, pretty much the exact SAME thing happened to another volunteer FF with the SAME vounteer fire department under the exact SAME circumstances, and almost in the exact SAME location.
SAME volunteer fire department/district ( Okanogan County VFD – 8th Fire District )
SAME general area ( 2019=Spring-Coulee-Fire 2018=Grass-Valley-Fire-near Coulee Dam )
SAME circumstances ( Brush Truck, 2 crew, 1 burned but 1 able to run away )
SAME Fuel type ( Mostly grass )
SAME Result ( 1 FF seriously burned )
SAME air-evac to SAME burn unit ( Harborview Medical Center )
The Spokesman Review
Article Title: Firefighter injured Saturday in Grass Valley fire in satisfactory condition
Published: Mon., Aug. 13, 2018, 7:54 p.m. – By Jonathan Glover
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/aug/13/firefighter-injured-saturday-in-grass-valley-fire-/
Internet Archive ( Wayback Machine ) link to first capture of that original article…
https://web.archive.org/web/20180814063600/https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/aug/13/firefighter-injured-saturday-in-grass-valley-fire-/
From that August 13, 2018 article…
——————————————————————————————————-
A firefighter injured Saturday in the Grass Valley fire near Grand Coulee Dam was a volunteer from Okanogan County.
Chief Ed Townsend of Okanogan County Fire District 8 identified the man as 38-year-old Brett Read, a volunteer of seven years who lives in Omak with his wife and three children.
Read was burned in the fast-moving fire that quickly swallowed over 70,000 acres of land.
It started 12 miles east of Mansfield and worked its way northeast and up to the edge of the town of Coulee Dam on Saturday.
He was airlifted to Harborview Medical Center in Seattle, where he is listed in satisfactory condition.
Townsend said through a news release posted Sunday by the Department of Natural Resources that Read and another firefighter were attempting to leave their work area near the fire’s origin at the intersection of Highways 17 and 172, when the “fire behavior unexpectedly intensified.”
“Read became separated from the engine he was working on and suffered burns during the incident,” says the news release.
“The second firefighter on Read’s engine was not injured.”
—————————————————————————
In last year’s incident involving the same Okanogan County VFD, FF Brett Read suffered serious burns to his face, hands and upper body. Skin grafts were required but there was no ‘medically induced coma’ required, as is the case with this second ( more serious ) incident involving Okanogan County VFD Assistant Chief Christian Johnson.
WTF is happening lately with these Hybrid FFs, on an Asst. Firer Chief, getting burned over and burned on two separate incidents (CA and WA).
“CA Firefighters Airlifted after Suffering Burns in Vegetation Fire
“It’s unclear how many firefighters were injured in a rural Monterey County fire. Their conditions were not released.
“Sept. 2–Multiple firefighters suffered burn injuries while battling one of two vegetation fires in rural Monterey County on Sunday, officials said. The first fire began before 3 p.m. in the area of Throne Road and Arroyo Seco Road in the town of Greenfield east of Big Sur near Highway 101.”
( burned-in-vegetation-fire?utm_source=FH+Newsday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS190902004&o_eid=5668G1183545G6J&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C5668G1183545G6J&oly_enc_id=5668G1183545G6J )
_____________________________________________________________
“Airlifted WA Firefighter Suffered Burns over 50% of Body
“Okanogan County Assistant Chief Christian Johnson is in a medically induced coma while he’s stabilized for skin graft surgery after battling the Spring Coulee fire Sunday. (Sept. 2, 2019)
“He was injured in the Spring Coulee Fire, which started around 4 p.m. Sunday near B&O Road N between Fletcher Loop Road and Spring Coulee Road, according to the release.”
This one has an expertly done AUV fire perimeter overfly video that reveals the major fuel type as grass, grass, agricultural fields, grass, and more grass. WTF happened here to get these kinds of severe, life threatening burns in this fuel type??
( https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/news/21095162/okanogan-wa-firefighter-airlifted-after-battling-brush-fire )
Trying again on the first link ( https://www.firehouse.com/safety-health/news/21095139/ca-firefighters-burned-in-vegetation-fire?utm_source=FH+Newsday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS190902004&o_eid=5668G1183545G6J&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C5668G1183545G6J&oly_enc_id=5668G1183545G6J )
And it’s UAV and not AUV
A PUBLIC posting that appeared online with a little more detail, including the name of the VERY seriously injured FF…
—————————————————————————————–
We had a recent fire injury in our state. Assistant Chief Christian Johnson’s brush truck was overtaken while he was working the Spring Coulee Fire near Okanogan, Washington. The firefighter he was with outran the flames, but Johnson suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns to 50-60% of his body, as well as damage to his airway. He’s currently in a medically induced coma while they attempt to stabilize him for skin grafts.
——————————————————————————————
From the article at…
https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/news/21095162/okanogan-wa-firefighter airlifted-after-battling-brush-fire
———————————————————————————————–
OKANOGAN, WA—A firefighter was airlifted to Harborview Medical Center on Sunday after sustaining an injury from brush fire near Okanogan.
The firefighter was from Okanogan County Fire District 3, but his name, type of injury and current condition have not been released.
He was treated on the scene by Lifeline Ambulance before being airlifted directly from the scene to Harborview in Seattle on Sunday, according to an Okanogan County Emergency Management press release.
———————————————————————————————–
NOTE: The Harborview Medical Center is the exact same facility that received FF Daniel Lyon Jr. immediately following the August 2015 Twisp Fire incident, which killed the other 3 members of Lyon’s Brush Truck.
They have a VERY good burn unit there.
WTKTT,
There are even more wildland fire burn victims treated there.
“Burn victim plans to fight fires again – Yakima man details his brush with death in Thirtymile blaze
By GORDY HOLT, SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER Published 10:00 pm PDT, Thursday, September 20, 2001
“The fiberglass shelter is a firefighter’s last resort, a last chance against heat so hot it can crack granite.
That awful afternoon, as fire raged into the Chewuch River canyon, firefighter Jason Emhoff placed a foot and hand in each corner of the tiny tent to hold it against the ground and seal off the raging storm outside.
Emhoff, who describes himself as “accident prone,” had forgotten his gloves, and as he lay in the shelter the fire became too intense, particularly for his hands, now frying in the heat.
So he fled into the blazing gale.
“I just took off,” he said yesterday, speaking publicly for the first time since the July 10 fire, which killed four of his Forest Service crewmates.
That he did so rather than stay likely saved Emhoff’s life.
As he broke from his shelter, Emhoff emerged into a dark storm of swirling embers to sprint the 50 to 60 feet downhill to the van that had brought him so close to death.
With the inferno raging around him, he climbed inside and sat, head down, his forearms resting on his thighs. Occasionally he would lift them because his arms were “too hot.”
His hands hung between his knees, useless but without pain. At one point he noticed they were white and that the skin was hanging loose and ragged.. He shook them, and in doing so, he shook off his own skin.
“When you have third-degree burns there is no pain because there’s nothing left,” he said. “It’s all gone.”
On the rocky slope above, Emhoff’s crew was doing what it had been taught to do as firefighters. They stayed in their shelters. No matter what.
As a consequence, crew boss Tom Craven, 30, of Ellensburg; Karen Fitzpatrick, 18; Devin Weaver, 21; and Jessica Johnson, just two weeks shy of her 20th birthday, all died.
Although Emhoff survived the Thirtymile Fire, he was so badly burned that doctors had to insert his left hand under the skin of his abdomen to help it heal.
The 21-year-old Yakima native checked out of Harborview Medical Center’s burn unit last week, and now, he wants to head back to the woods to pick up where he left off as a crew boss trainee.
“I’m getting my old personality back,” he said yesterday. “But I’m still a little grumpy.”
The hand? He held it up and wiggled its fingers. “Complete feeling,” he said.
Wearing logger boots and the blue baseball cap of the Entiat Hotshots firefighter who rescued him, Emhoff sat before microphones with his physical therapist, Beth Costa, Dr. David Heimbach, who directs the Harborview burn unit, and his mother, Jeanne Emhoff of Yakima, who has been at his side daily.
Emhoff suffered burns over 30 percent of his body. His face, ears, neck, arms and legs were burned. But his hands took the heat’s brunt.
After doctors placed his badly burned hand inside his abdomen, the skin’s blood supply encouraged the growth of fatty tissue where there had been none and gave the hand enough tissue to hold a graft.
Enduring the three-week immobilization period that followed, Emhoff said, “was like being in a big splint.”
By Aug. 13, enough tissue had accumulated so that the hand could be removed and skin taken from his back could be grafted to it as well as to other burned areas of his body. At the same time, the small finger of Emhoff’s right hand had to be amputated.
Although a U.S. Forest Service report on what happened in the Chewuch River canyon is pending, a seven-week investigation by the Yakima Herald-Republic published earlier this month concluded that the four firefighters died needlessly because safety rules were not followed and water had not been airlifted to the site.
Emhoff would not comment on the Forest Service’s tactics that fateful day.
But he did say he trusted his crew boss, Craven, implicitly and believed he and his crew were in a safe place as the fire approached..
“We weren’t worried,” he said. “We trusted each other. We knew our boundaries.
“ Then it just happened — so fast. All of a sudden it was like we were in an oven. Someone had shut the door and we were inside. ”
Despite his awful experience, Emhoff said he intends to resume the livelihood he loves best — fighting wildfires in the forest.
*******************************************************
Per usual, LOTS of cover-up, whitewash, and lies on these wildland fire fatalities as well, including NLP-trained “investigators” telling – not asking, but “ telling ” some of the survivors what they saw and heard.
This was similar to the alleged “investigators” telling Joy A. Collura that “Mystery Man” did not exist and that she never saw him talking to GMHS Marsh that morning.
Jason Emhoff–describes himself as accident prone, got into a terrible near death burn situation and is a wild fire crew boss trainee? Good Lord, don’t let one of my kids be under this man once he becomes a boss. Another Eric Marsh type–but I wonder why at 21 years of age any wild land fire fighter would be training as a crew boss. That is screwed up if such is allowed.
RTS is this true that the FS actually allows a 21 year old to be training as a crew boss. I would believe wisdom would say that a man/women ought to have a minimum of 5 to 10 years proven wild fire experience before he could even think of being responsible for 19 other lives in a crew. What gives there?
Charlie-
check your text.
I need to know about a hack and at this moment we need to talk to confirm something.
The writing I am getting has keypoints like you but no way do you type like that.
I do know my site has been hacked and working that out with webmaster.
I just want everyone to not email unless you know such before hand that I am having cyber weirdness.
Whatever it is … it is being handled professionally.
This has been my most odd Summer in my entire life.
Weird stuff-
joy ;it is me — somewhere I got screwed. OK but hard to do with me.
Some facts. WTKTT u should be in charge of the country–Trump cant hold a second place with y9u. The Irish DNA can not be challenged except with a few blondies of the norweigen people. Sorry but facts and what is what is. WE live a while but since I died for sure at least twice proven I can say God and his servants does allow some slack. So Hitler et al are not at all right. But the Irish do have privileges way beyone what a fe blokes woud want to think. I
IN my book if WTKTT runs for Pres he has my vote –we need a boss of the military who knows
Someday the kids will come here–they will say here is RTS,here is Gary, here is Woodsman, here is Joy Collura, here is wtktt, here are people that only abide in truth. Those children, now adults will know because y9ou can not hide the truth.
Thank you cause lost a son too. And nothing but the truth will suffice..
Joy, if you have something important to add and post you can e mail to me first and if your post does not work, I will post it for you. Your posts and information are too important to loose–
7:40 pm tonight another large “drafted” post hacked and vanished – whomever is doing it – we will get to who so you know…that is three times in the past week. I won’t stop at accepting such behavior – there will be legal prosecution on this not because of time spent doing these posts but because it is criminal
Man, I thought it had stopped.
Three in a week…I am not going away if you wondered.
I shake the “ughhs” off and start again.
At least I got smarter during be ill so all it is – is loading the content again because this I saved it.
All you did was waste a month+ of my time but I will get who you are and you will be arrested.
You are behaving very wrong.
Instead of rebuilding my post right now
I will pause and have an online specialist private investigator look at first-
Thank God I know people that do that…
The following is well worth reading, from the former ” Wildlandfire.com ” – the self-proclaimed ” home of the wildland firefighter .” Among many resources on their site is the bulletin board, They Said It , which was first moderated by the original “Abercrombie” and now by Abby. They Said provides its readers with LCES, /b> : a Lookout for what we probably couldn’t otherwise see happening in the rest of the wildfire world; Communications to bring together a diverse group of agency, contractor and cooperator folks (and even some of those structure types); Escape routes for when the off-season or office day lasts too long or is just too far from the smoke; and ultimately, a Safety zone in the information, innovation and motivation to help bring us all back home.”
DEFINITELY check out the Former WildlandFire.com – They Said archives (1999-2004) with a ton of good stuff! Especially read the “ Common Errors 1919 ” and SMJ “Tony Petrilli’s witness statement from the South Canyon Fire report ” and “ Similarities of Fatality Fires, Observations of Payne, 04/04 ” and all former USFS Hot Shot Supt. and FMO Doug Campbells’ Campbell Prediction System (CPS) links
The “Wildlandfire.com They Said It” link below:
( http://www.wildlandfire.com/arc/arc.htm ) will need to be run through the “Internet Archive Wayback Machine” link ( https://archive.org/web/ ).
This is a great critique of the South Canyon Fire debacle and fully supporting the Fire Orders and the 18 Watch Out Situations by “They Said” Abercrombie
.
“Assuming there may be a few readers left with me here, I’ll now address the issues noted in the second paragraph of this article. The failure of a firefighter, all firefighters, any firefighters, regardless of rank, to follow established rules or guidelines have little to do with weather forecasters, district managers, or dispatch centers. Yet, Mr. Maclean in his ignorance and some of the readers of his book seem to prefer blaming some of these individuals, or others who were far from the fireline.
An excess amount of uninformed, misplaced, insinuations filled far too many pages of the book as the author critiqued decisions and placed blame on those making decisions about when the fire first ignited, how long it was left to burn, whose jurisdiction or responsibility it was, and how long it took until resources began to attack the fire. I consider this extraneous information as fluff, dander, and fill to make the book fit the parameter of a novel at around 275 pages. Most of dialogue, interviews, and conclusions fail to address the primary responsibility of each firefighter to comply with the fundamental rules already existing to govern their actions and behavior.
“ It didn’t matter if the South Canyon fire was burning for a week or a month, it didn’t matter if the fire was 5 or 500 acres prior to initial attack, or if there were 10 or 100 airtankers five miles away ideally spinning their props. Understand? It doesn’t matter and has absolutely no bearing on why the firefighters died . Do you get it? The primary responsibility for a crew’s safety lies with their crew supervisor. Period. It doesn’t matter who the IC is, who the Division Supervisor is, nor the Branch Director, nor any other person in an observing status. It’s the crew supervisor!
“I believe adequate training was provided these people to prevent this scenario from happening. They just didn’t follow the rules. I would like to have the capability of making sure each firefighter reading this understands that a similar situation may happen to them on any given fire. My hopes are that each of you are aware that you have the right to “question authority”. Ensure you understand and are aware of the 10 Standard Orders and the 18 Watchout Situations! Make sure you understand them and apply them to every fire you fight. You have the right to refuse any assignment you are uncomfortable with. You have the right to say NO!
“Seldom politically correct, always fire correct. . . Abercrombie
However, McClean is correct in criticizing those for allowing an easy containment to turn into a fiasco. Certainly once that was allowed, and the novice hybrid commanders made every mistake possible causing the death of the GMHS crew to be cremated, that should have been addressed in detail as well.
As a witness to the fire and survivor with loss as well I want to know the whole picture but certainly did not want to see the reason for the negligent deaths of the GMHS crew downplayed.
Author John Maclean has said many time, in public, that if/when he ever gets around to publishing a book about the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire it is GOING to pay particular attention to the day the fire started ( Friday ) and then the botched initial attack that was going on all day Saturday, the day BEFORE the tragedy.
I hope he does.
Not nearly enough attention has been paid to the incompetence and bad decision making that was going on in Yarnell for 48 hours PRIOR to Sunday, June 30, 2013, when 19 men ended up burning to death on a fire that SHOULD have been already contained.
**
** CHRISTOPHER MACKENZIE IPHONE 4S IMAGE: IMG_2738
The link below is to a NEW crossfade/fly-around video which focuses ( once again ) on GM Hotshot Christopher MacKenzie’s iPhone 4S image IMG_2738.
IMG_2738 was taken at exactly 3:55:31 PM on the day of the tragedy.
It remains the LAST known photograph taken by any of the GM Hotshots that day from their last ‘Rest Spot’ location ( in the black ), before heading south towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
The moment after this iPhone 4S image was taken, ALL photo-taking by ANY of the GM Hotshots abruptly STOPPED.
This remains the likely moment ( 3:56 PM ) when all discussions between DIVSA Eric Marsh and Acting GMIHC Superintendent Jesse Steed about whether to even attempt the move to the Boulder Springs Ranch had now ended, and Jesse Steed told his GM crew that the ‘break’ was over and it was time to “Gaggle up”, leave the safe black, and begin to head south.
This NEW video focuses on the RIGHT SIDE of Christopher’s IMG_2738, and shows EXACTLY what the ‘field of view’ really was, and what terrain features and locations could ( or could NOT ) be SEEN in the photograph itself.
In light of recent events and postings, it was worth taking another ( detailed ) look at exactly what the right-side ‘field of view’ for Christopher’s IMG_2738 really includes.
In the video, the YELLOW LINE represents the exact sightline for the right-side edge of the photograph and is also translated onto the ground in the subsequent fly-around.
As the fly-around shows, the ‘field of view’ for that right-side of Christopher’s photograph includes locations in the distance that are all the way up to halfway down the road that led out to the Boulder Springs Ranch itself.
BOTTOM LINE: As of 3:55:31 PM, there was absolutely NO fire OR smoke emanating from ANY area contained within the ‘field of view’ of Christopher’s IMG_2738, other than the main fire line seen on the LEFT side of the photograph.
Here is the new video…
Video Title: MacKenzie-IMG-2738-035531PM
Date Created: August 12, 2019
Video Description:
Crossfade from Christopher MacKenzie’s iPhone 4S image IMG-2738, taken at 3:55:31 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013 at the Yarnell Hill Fire, into the equivalent Google Earth terrain view. The YELLOW line represents the right-side edge of the image.
Video Link: https://youtu.be/KCB1mcS22Ys
Something of the photo is if there were a burn outside the yellow line that would not have been seen with the wind in the direction it was. Would that be likely-or did it happen. Only the men doing the burn if it happened can come forward and let us know. DND do you know?
Reply to Charlie post on August 21, 2019 at 10:27 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Something of the photo is if there were a burn outside the
>> yellow line that would not have been seen with the wind in
>> the direction it was. Would that be likely-or did it happen.
Not likely.
Not at 3:55:31 PM, anyway.
That was sort of the point of the latest crossfade/fly-around on that Christopher MacKenzie iPhone 4S photo taken at exactly 3:55:31 PM.
It was to show that IAOI ( If And Only If ) there had been any kind of manual burnout anywhere near the BSR at that time… then how CLOSE would it have had to have been to the BSR to NOT be visible in the MacKenzie photo.
The point where the right-edge sightline of the MacKenzie 3:55:31 PM photo actually intersects with the road leading out to Boulder Springs Ranch was only 271 yards ( 813 feet ) away from the BSR front gate security camera, which was recording video all afternoon, until the power went off at the BSR at 4:54:49 PM.
At its closest point, the right-edge sightline of the MacKenzie photo comes within just 171 yards ( 528 feet ) of the security camera.
Even according to the security camera footage… at 3:55:31 PM there is NO sign of any ‘smoke’ in any area between the security camera and any part of the right-edge sightline of the MacKenzie photo.
Remember… we are ONLY talking about 3:55 PM.
That photo taken by Christopher MacKenzie was the LAST one taken by any Granite Mountain Hotshot before they ‘Gaggled Up’ and left the safe black.
So that simply remains the LAST ‘good look’ at that entire area from the Weaver Ridge vantage point… and it confirms that, circa 3:55 PM, there were no VISIBLE burnouts happening in either the Shrine / Youth Camp area OR anywhere along the dozer push or along Sesame Street.
WTKTT
Finally getting around to this after dealing with “the gift that keeps on giving” – Windows 10.
Thank you for your usual good work on these crossfade videos and this one in particular. The few WFs and FFs involved are fairly adamant on the “18 to 20 minutes prior to the GMHS Burnover” as their firing operation timeframe.
I came across this YH Fire SAIT Drop Box link the other day from a thread with you and Rocksteady that should definitely add fodder to the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing Operations issue. It’s loaded with excellent fire behavior photos in the June 30, 2013, timeframe even though the metadata is really mucked up.
This is the “read me.txt. from the Drop Box: “Rick Tham, a local resident, took these June 30, 2013 photos before and while evacuating. Stewart Turner, the Type 1 FBAN on the Yarnell Hill Fire, gave them to the Accident Investigation Team. The file names for most of the photos begin “Yarnell Hill Fire june 28-30 2013.” The earliest photo is stamped 6/29 at 10:28 am and the last is 6/30 at 4:59 pm. However, an email to Carrie Templin, member of the Accident Investigation Team, states Tham took them just before and while evacuating, which would have been June 30.”
This was your edited March 2015 post on the topic of fire behavior with Rock Steady.
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiii/#comment-273115 )
“WantsToKnowTheTruth says March 11, 2015 at 4:05 pm
“Reply to rocksteady post on March 11, 2015 at 1:28 pm
********************
“TWO of local resident ( and photographer ) Rick Tham’s photos have ALWAYS shown an obvious TORNADO within the smoke column even as early as 3:21 PM.
********************
“Rick Tham’s photos are all HERE in the SAIT Online Dropbox
( https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAa-lsvLUB16n0wjQpatZlPa/Photos%20and%20Video/Rick%20Tham%20Photos?dl=0 )
*********************
You refer to these two photos: “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 197.jpg” and “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 198.jpg” … “were taken within seconds of each other on the NORTH side of the fire on Sunday, June 30, 2013 at around 3:21 PM”?
So then, with non-existent metadata in these photos, I’m curious, how you concluded the date and time on that photo? And what program did you use to do that?
Now leaving the tornado issue, I offer these three photos (and others) below and within the SAIT Drop Box to address the germane aggressive fire behavior and firing operation photos, especially the three listed below.
( “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 267.jpg” ) view from Burro Trail off Hwy. 89.
( “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 268.jpg” ) from above Pat Bernard’s place near where Jerry Thompson and the SCW FD FFs were perched.
( “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 269.jpg” ) view from the Assembly of God church off Hwy. 89.
In my professional opinion, this Drop Box is replete with LOTS of relevant fire behavior photos supporting the ongoing firing operation(s) in the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing Operations discussion
I am confused.
On Friday, August 30, 2019 10:44 PM I received “A new visitor just sent you a chat message on yarnell hill fire revelations . com”
Location of Message: Yarnell, AZ
“rick thams photos were 90 present in peeples valley”
————————————————
The confusing part is I spent years on IM stating there is not ONE SOUL who can say they know that terrain as much as I do in the way I do (and blind-folded) so it would be obvious to me that I would know if this person’s statement above meant 90 percent then I know and I have expressed the importance that people share their pics with me because I know that area and can pick it apart to exact locations showing you HOW I came to this. Now, if you meant 90 present than I need more than that to comprehend.
The photo I know was taken right near Kramers place (photo 268) has a google off the streets to the sky to show you where it leads to and it leads to Sesame to Shrine Corridor areas not way out by the old grader yet Tham is not an easy person to reach but by snail mail so it is a long process.
I do not do social media so if any of you want to take that task and reach him – go ahead.
Email online for him was unsuccessful.
There is some tips I can share with you … Damion Tham may be able to help or Gloria Jean Tham … or Corey Tham … or Sherri Taylor. We need to see the originals from his photos. I really think it was savvy of the SAIT SAIR to label the TITLE June 28- June 30, 2013 because people would overlook it with first glance saying June 28 but number 268 is significant if we know the exact metadata and WTKTT mentioned the smoke whirl ages ago yet very odd not much “talk or discussions” on the 242, 258- 266, 268 , 269, 270, 273, 003.
————————————————————-
We need <much more clarification yet it also is a public reminder how the SAIT SAIR failed us in their investigation because they failed to look into this area more in depth … I am greatly disappointed. SAIT team had this opportunity to be with Tham so how did it become some general dropbox. link and not be a focus on the times of the above photos and show the times when adding to dropbox.
—————————————————————
In Addition, some of you got the D.C. post in published form via email when it published then vanished and if there is any way if the link shows content let us know – we need to figure if it was the webmaster technical difficulties — if it ends up being the other that someone hacked in two computers of ours I am legally going to prosecute for that D.C. posts took many weeks to do and I thought when it happened – ugh timing – yet listen I saved most to content to PDF so it is just a matter of sitting down to do it all over again yet all of August and this month I am dealing with health concerns and I also am on tri-therapy of antibiotics so I am not going to begin to redo the posts until I am clear headed because I may get harsh toned on some … I will be revealing Fire20+ in that post to show about certain folks behaviors and placing misinformation out in the Hotshot Industry.
REMEMBER THIS on June 30, 2013 I was just your housewife hiker and helped local elders and kids and that is on pause because I do not mind getting as educated as I can get with Wildland Fire conferences and training and school until those MANY people who think their secret(s) died with the men and can lay until their grave.
I met people who have been true legends and I have met people who think they are a legend in their own mind. You are about to see me challenge people even more so you can lawyer up all you want or even have others get in your ears to say deny it ever happened yet you never seen a human being with a fire in the belly like me.
You want to be legendary yet be anonymous – I have kept everyone’ story to myself even people in the in of all this … their is a man who told me who is the man (well respected) in your industry that if he was put on the stand he would tell what Musser told him … now for me, no court room will get me to give the anonymity of these people up even if it meant jail time for me. I am that serious about protecting people who were there those last 18 minutes. It needs to be told first hand and that us how I am doing it. Some were pissed off all through year because I say I am gonna do this and then it does not pan out what I say I was gonna do … that is usually due to external factors or my health but not a day goes by that I stay the course
Anyone who was a part in the beginnings to knowing me will also be brought to the light to show the world your only stance was narratives and campfire stories.
Since that dog bite my health journey has been not so great yet every day I am doing my part to heal and get prepared for training next month.
You all that tried to knock me down this Summer 2019 where I thought you were on board as first or second hand to start talking then clammed up after some on IM said a few choice words… (sigh)
Cobra Kia and as well Mr Miyagi really taught me something ages ago and google Cobra Kia on YouTube to see the re-vamp 34 years later … listen to some good 80’s music and take you back to when time was not the bullshit we see today. Simpler times.
https://youtu.be/81XSlh_UKJg
h t t ps://images.app.goo.gl/ wAcUKpTsiRMBeJVb6
Mr Han: “Life can knock us down, but we choose whether to get up or not.”
Oh and for the ones who feel the above is eighth grade mentality shows … that’s your take … TV was so popular in the 80’s so if I want to get a little eighth grade nostalgia … it is my life and right.
God Bless you and stay the course and I get the clam ups
I do.
Yet I also know when to do the right thing by these 19.
Me publicly sharing and others taking it as teases .. I am sharing my journey … as you share yours. So what you wait until you gather then tell. I tell things as it comes to me as a online time stamp so I can easily go CTRL F on the topic </b versus looking at hand written notes.
I have not read IM in awhile … been really trying to get heal and start on my path to train up for October if they give me that call that I am in I want to be healthy and clear-minded for the people training me and the students.
Some do not like Gary’s ways yet he is the sensai of IM because I remember the days I would ask for removal of harsh comments back yearrrrrsssss ago to John Dougherty and I even asked for stuff to be removed on the widow due to its heat effect. I have the deepest respect for each and everyone and what they presented here.
I am confused though how all these years later Bob Powers wrote some harsh stuff about MacLean and his team and yet they are buddy buddy now and a book was born… was their something to that …did IM help you bridge to MacLean because IM tore me and MacLean in person a part and awaiting its on Earth healings … no reason to tell me it is a dead end when I tried in person to present documents to try and bridge an area I thought he had a better chance at than me.
Ain’t doing a book or movie and recently Weather Channel asked Sonny and I to do a show called heroes and survivors … I tried to reroute them to some that were there the last 18 minutes and told them maybe that is their platform to speak up…
Tuesday, August 20, 2019 9:33 AM
Hello,
I’m hoping to find Joy Collura. We would like to do a story on the Weather Channel about the Yarnell Hill fire. I have found a YouTube page which lead me to this email.
Not sure who it is associated with – but please put me in contact with Joy Collura or Sonny Gilligan. I can definitely give you more information.
https://youtu.be/uv-VGRdFWko
Contact me as soon as you can.
Thank you!
—
Sabrina Hawkins-CONT | Associate/Story Producer
——————————————-
Hey people that were their last 18 minutes … you wanna call them and be for reals and become a true hero and survivor
Donut was the survivor of the Crew yet he is not the only one who survived that day…
typo:
that is usually due to external factors or my health but not a day goes by that I stay the course
that is usually due to external factors or my health but not a day goes by that I don’t stay the course
I was alerted in the past day why would I mention the whole thing with the past how Bob Powers wrote on here to then they worked it out some how – none of any bodys business _
My reply to that is John Norman MacLean’s emails to me over time have always been pleasant and John named me one of his friends even during the whole 2015 situation so when I saw him in person and he calculated IM as he did – I did my best to explain how this is a “tool” and a free place to share except the moderation hang-ups and rants and raves over time.
So I felt I had a right to share if he feels that way naming all of us here who participate on IM he does not participate with than I have a right in my next post to add in some areas to fill in some of this gap and pieces.
Hey, we all like and perceive people differently. I get that.
Yet, Bob Powers in earlier chapters was not always cordial or respectful to John Norman MacLean – then at the 2018 The Southern California Association of Foresters & Fire Wardens Conference John Norman MacLean was there for presenting YH Fire Five Years Later and book signing.
I always felt their research team had their own flair yet I did not expect the response as it happened alone without others there that I would have got the reaction I did. For some reason as he spoke on the front door step as butterflies so beautiful flew near us all I could think is try to explain IM yet he was serious on if I wanted to present information and documents he was a dead end for me and he extended his arm and cordially shook my hand like not “see you later” feel but ‘goodbye, deal with it Joy we are on two different paths”
I walked away. I am stubborn. I do not believe it is a dead end if we are all here to try and piece what happened that weekend making a book or not as he is … We all should be doing the best even if one promised anonymity to get the data out in best way we can
.
In closing, that was why some of my next post will reveal you IM’s Fire20+ because someone tied to you or even possibly you have placed misinformation out to the Hotshot Community on March 7th, 2019 12:23PM in regards to me and the photos I took June 30, 2013. Someone close to you or even possibly you wrote someone that my photo was taken at 6:39AM on June 30, 2013. I was there and Sonny was there. We know where we were when photos were being taken and 6:39AM I would have been curving around what would become later that day the Deployment Zone Box Canyon at that time of day and if you ever been on the bottom where the men died than you know I could not take a photo that was right of the lunch spot area which is hidden by that right boulderous hill that leads to the Saddle.
I just want to show the world John Norman MacLean states all of IM but in reality it’s selective because he did end up gathering data from Bob Powers to make his book. The same Bob Powers who wrote on IM some pretty harsh perceptions all along I was telling the world we all can be free to have our style of who we are in doing this yet if anyone is shady in it – the light will eventually hit that shade.
I hope this helped that one person explain what I meant by mentioning Bob Powers. I have always enjoyed Mr. Powers and still do. His only tie of mentioning his name is because of John’s comments did not match reality when he said all of IM… Both John and Bob are fine by me just making a point.
Here is something that would help change your health. Avoid plastics hard but will make the difference. Plastic bottles for water–flexible by use of phytalates–not strongly bound so seep into the water more if plastic is warmed. Phytalates are endocrine disrupters, increased allergy reactions, and asthma. 99% people have this in the urine tests. banned in cosmetics in europe and now in baby bottles in US but BPS is just as bad a substitute.
Next BPA and substitutes BPS–small amounts in animals dangerous. linked to cancer, asthma, including heart disease and a host of health problems.
Despite the chemical companies telling you that plastic is safe, you see cancer is is expected to infect 50% of the population by 2025. Heart disease right up there with cancer and other diseases on the rise–medical profession is the money game now.
PVCs in carpet, flooring such as I had floored my place with,, roofing, etc are the worse with the dioxins that are deadly even in small amounts but all these chemicals over time are cumulative in the body
Here are some of the other chemicals emitted off PVC–dioxins,phytalates, vinyl chloride, ethylene dichloride. lead, and cadmium. There is no safe way to use or dispose of vinyl chloride.
Now you see that between your carpet life, your exposure to so many plastics-even worse when heated, the chemicals you use in cosmetics, then another dose of deadly chemicals from the fire retardant we breathed and smoke that also has enough carcinogens, it is no wonder you are seeing doctors for all kinds of sickness. . Damn this chemical industry but they are such liars and know they are killing people and making the world sick. And here is the thing–if you want to risk that lifestyle then go to it. But my own idea is wood flooring and staying away from plastic and retardant and other chemicals where I can.
We erred at Yarnell–should have never made those hikes through the retardant drops–but we were ignorant at the time of the chemical problem. So were the people we hiked, and so were the Yarnellites that are now dead or sick after being subjected to an intentional or unintentional experiment that has reduced the population by almost a third in just 6 years.
But know that the toxins that you breath from the retardants and plastics are generally cumulative and may take some time to give you the cancer, heart disease, and a host of other health problems in time. However, if Yarnell is any example, and you have some age on you, expect the effects to be fast to put you in illness and on your death bed.
JD is a hero–his work on preventing the polluting by mining companies and other interests greedy for money but lacking in concern for the health of people and the environment is laudable. The polluters need be exposed–this planet and its environment are at a desperate turning point and the health of the people has been disregarded with industry and corporations the major participants. What he is fighting is against criminals of the highest order since it affects all of us, the wildlife, environment, oceans and all we experience though this life.
About Plastic:
There was 35 million tons of plastic produced in the US in 2015. The wold produced 270 million tons and that year 275 million tons went into waste–some went into land fills, a small amount was burned. 91% of plastic is not recycled meaning this world is accumulating plastic that never disentigrates except by burning. The oceans are now getting 8 million tonnes per year and along with the retardants and phosphates is there any wonder how dead zones are increasing and aquatic life is threatened. Then you have a President that is opening the valve to more of the same.
But for your health stay away from plastic as much as possible and for sure the retardant scene.
Next in the plastic is BPA
About Retardants–19 million gallons were dumped on forest fires US 2019. It was a 6+ billion dollar industry. We all know the devastating effects of Phosphates on fish and other aquatic life and the causing of ocean dead zones by phosphates and ammonium that are by rain waters and rivers added to the ocean waters. Little is said about the health effects on people, yet Yarnell is a prime example of how deadly these substances are, especially the elderly and those already compromised in health.
My opinions–do your own studies–you will then understand the magnitude of the problem.
correction 19 billion tons of retardant was dumped on lands in 2016–For 2018 I did not give the figures but it has to be much more and the industry has moved from a 6 billion dollar figure to a much higher amount–
It is easy to understand how a 6 billion dollar industry can put up a 100million or more in funds to keep its propaganda machine well oiled. But these companies all go together in an organization that includes such giants as Monsanto, Standard Oil, Wal Mart and on and on to promote their interests–money money–but at what expense to the health of the masses and the environment? Clowns are we? I have to wonder who is foooling who and who wears the clown make up?
Why would there be absolutely no other photos available of the area after the McKinsie photo? A burn started after that time of that photo would be seen. It would only take a few minutes for a burn to proceed to the Helms area and block off the death canyon . Even if started ten minutes before the men died, it would have been long enough to have blocked their escape.
As I was reading this, it seems that they were burning as they were leaving and Donut and his buggy passed them. One fireman had seen that his burn had advanced up the hill for half a mile in five minutes. He saw it was moving fast–then they realized suddenly that their burn was a factor in trapping the GMHS crew.
I wonder how it is this information was never investigated. You can’t make this shit up and nobody would.
I begin to understand it–If you are in law enforcement it is OK to lie–especially if it can entrap a criminal. In fire fighting bosses it is OK to lie as well as I saw at Peeples Valley–and I am not making this up–Joy has it on tape. It is OK to do a big lie if you are CIA–Ollie North did it and the CIA cronies at that time got away with it.
But to lie when 19 GMHS crew are killed is not at all proper. No excuse on this one.
” How liars create the ‘illusion of truth. ‘
Repetition makes a fact seem more true, regardless of whether it is or not. Understanding this effect can help you avoid falling for propaganda, says psychologist Tom Stafford.”
“’ Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth,’ is a law of propaganda often attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels . If repetition was the only thing that influenced what we believed we’d be in trouble, but it isn’t. We can all bring to bear more extensive powers of reasoning, but we need to recognise they are a limited resource.
Our minds are prey to the illusion of truth effect because our instinct is to use short-cuts in judging how plausible something is. Often this works. Sometimes it is misleading. Once we know about the effect we can guard against it. Part of this is double-checking why we believe what we do – if something sounds plausible is it because it really is true, or have we just been told that repeatedly?
This is why scholars are so mad about providing references – so we can track the origin on any claim, rather than having to take it on faith. But part of guarding against the illusion is the obligation it puts on us to stop repeating falsehoods. We live in a world where the facts matter, and should matter.
If you repeat things without bothering to check if they are true, you are helping to make a world where lies and truth are easier to confuse. So, please, think before you repeat.”
( http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20161026-how-liars-create-the-illusion-of-truth )
BBC Future. Psychology. Tom Stafford. 26 October 2016
Sonny,
I have been working on what HB told us Sonny long ago and even he told RTS recently about how and what he saw and identified a FF who was badly burned in front of his place and yet the Chief said there was no injuries so it is still a “shelved” area…
I sent you an email that I think belongs to you and may help in your documentary
Joy,
How about some clarification on this one.
There were also numerous credible reports of “several injured firefighters” and “FFs with burn injuries” that have never seen the light of day.
It’s not clear from the article if these were FFs working the YH Fire but a permissible inference since the article was on that subject.
( http://archive.azcentral.com/ic/contest/pulitzer/yarnell/ )
Wickenburg hospital expecting to treat “several” injured firefighters; 19 still unaccounted for. ( #yarnellfire
http://bit.ly/14kf8Kh ) 6:41 PM – 30 Jun 2013; 6:41 p.m.:
The hospital in nearby Wickenburg prepares to receive the injured, prompting The Republic to send reporters Dennis Wagner and Lindsey Collom there. Twitter link.
Additionally, an anonymous local source mentioned by Joy above, stated that he witnessed a local FF on June 30, 2013, being treated in front of his house for burns on both of his hands.
However, the Wickenburg Hospital neither confirmed nor denied any such injuries and cited HIPAA laws (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, Public Law 104-191), regarding any further information.
With the deepest depth of thick tears in my eyes … deep … there was a local FF being treated in front of a homeowners home next to Helms entrance for bad burns to his arms and I have for years tried to properly identify these reports from more than one person and the Chief sticks to no injuries even though the dept has been verified by more than one person. I have always tried to get a name and maybe some day that person reads IM and knows I have tried – and hopefully you tell your story how you go the burns and where at …
I hope that added clarification, RTS but with all the recent attacks to me I just do not get why ??? and this has not been an easy path … the more I learn the more I wonder how can so many still keep it all out of the public …
his arms and hands
Reply to Charlie post on September 13, 2019 at 10:14 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Why would there be absolutely no other photos available
>> of the area after the McKinsie photo?
There are TONS of “photos available of the area” after GM Hotshot Christopher MacKenzie took his final iPhone photo at 3:55:31 PM from the vantage point of GM last rest spot, up on the Weaver Ridge.
There are even many photographs / videos covering the 3:55 PM to 5:00 PM timeframe that I am given to understand haven’t even been made public yet.
But Mackenzie’s 3:55:31 PM photo apparently remains the LAST photo that was taken from the vantage point of the Weaver Ridge and looking BACK EAST towards Yarnell, Glen Ilah, and the Sesame Street / Shrine Road area(s).
All of the other ( published ) photographs and videos after 3:55:31 PM were taken from somewhere in/near Yarnell and Glen Ilah and looking back WEST towards the approaching firestorm.
That’s what makes it difficult to determine exactly what the source of the smoke is/was in most of those other photos.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> A burn started after that time of that photo would be seen.
Yes… and if it started shortly after 3:55 PM… it would/could/should have EASILY been seen by the Granite Mountain Hotshots themselves from their excellent vantage point up on the Weavers the WHOLE time they were hiking SOUTH towards what would become the ‘Descent Point’ into the box canyon.
Until about 4:20 PM when they ‘arrived’ at the ‘Descent Point’… Jesse Steed and the GM Hotshots SHOULD have been able to easily see ANYTHING that might have been happening “out there” in the Sesame Street / Shrine Road area(s)… and would still have had time to react accordingly and change their plans.
They didn’t.
They still dropped down into that blind box canyon circa 4:20 PM.
I have to agree with WTKTT–not likely yet with the winds the way they were that afternoon a burn out of the Shrine would have flared up extremely fast. I have to really doubt that anything but the main fire killed those men yet all angles should have honestly been presented. The fact that we did see that a burn was being made at the Shrine yet was never reported is suspect and should have been addressed instead of redacting the video that showed the burn. It shows the dishonesty involved in the investigation which of course was rampant and a fiction created then only facts gleaned and half truths said with many redactions and threats to support the fiction. It is sad that such men of so called honor would do that but it seems to have been the norm in so many investigations–Mann Gulch, Storm King and several others qualified firefighting experts have attested to.
I had thought the burn being made was late at the Shrine but where did it start from since where they were using drip torches would have been the end of their burn line. And time of that burn would be important–this is something several men know about including times and extent of that burn. I am certain the talk is out and it would be very nice if those people would post here on IM. IM people are only seeing the truth as harsh as it is in this case as has already been proven even with just what we know in the careless manner the crew were killed. Facts are sometimes brutal but the truth is the only way progress will be made to save more lives.
For me, I could never hold back something like the times and facts about any burn. It would be too much weight on my conscience considering the value of how the truth bears directly on the lives and safety of future wild land fire fighters.
https://youtu.be/KCB1mcS22Ys
I promise you I am not WTKTT-
that is so unusual for you to drop just the link
You always describe everything
Summer heat got ya
or the annoying time trying to post.
or both
Thank you for the link-
It will be in my next post.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on August 20, 2019 at 5:45 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Summer heat got ya
>> or the annoying time trying to post.
>> or both.
Only the former.
That ‘link only’ message was actually just a TEST to try and work out why the original message just ‘vanished’ on August 12.
As it turns out… it went straight to the system’s SPAM folder ( and NOT into moderation or something like that ), and then all further attempts to post the same message would just return a “Duplicate Comment” rejection notice even though the original comment never appeared.
The complete original message that never made it to the forum back on August 12 has now been reposted above as a new parent comment.
That’s the first time I’ve experienced the ‘vanishing comment’ thing… but I guess it can happen to anyone at any time. Sometimes the system just ‘hiccups’ and makes a mistake.
Perhaps that is what was happening to Downhillndirect when he first started trying to post messages. If the message goes into the system’s SPAM folder, then it never even enters ‘moderation’ and it looks like the message just ‘vanished’.
Yeah…I was about to post my DC thing this week and today it vanished- someone is messing with us… Starting Over but very frustrating.
It certainly looks in that photo the McKensie photo there were burns being made they would have been after 3:55:31 PM-which would be a span of about an hour before fire caught up to the GMHS crew..
That requires a wild land fire fighter expert in laying burns out as to what might have occurred in that time frame. There would have to be a knowledge of where the firing was done and what wind velocities were present during and after the firing.
I am certain there were torches being used to set burnouts above the Shrine. Those could have been started even before 3:55 PM and would not have been evident in the McKenzie photo. Reason being because the Shrine is in a deep canyon where even from the two track could not have been seen. However, those fires were while the wind was up and I do not have any knowledge when the winds started to reverse at a fierce rate nor the direction they took at various changes. I do know when I topped the Weavers I could tell there was going to be a storm coming in and could feel a with a gentle motion of air reverse from what I was seeing when I had left Joy. Joy had said it took 40 minutes for me to return so whatever time I did see her upon return would approximate the time I was at the top of the Weavers.
There is evidence of a burn at least at the Shrine area–and I would think there would be more than just that area knowing how wild land fire fighters use burns to protect residences. So I have to believe that reports from fire fighters that were involved in burns are true but they would do well to say when and where to clear up whether there would be any possibility that these burns could have affected the demise of the GMHS crew.
But I am so interested as well in why so many residents of Yarnell died after the fire–well beyond the national average–something on the range of 5-7 times of what the death count should have been in the six years after the Yarnell demise of the 19. We are looking at approximately 200 souls dead and many others ill–obviously from the inundation of Yarnell by the chemical retardants of Phos Chek and its secret ingredients.
I had wondered if lead or even arsenic or cyanide and other chemicals such as bromates and phylates (known and proven carcinogens) were present would they be required to report them to the EPA or any other government health agency. The answer is no they do not. They can put whatever they want in those secret formulas and anything they report is voluntary–which of course is very little. They are innocent until proven guilty no matter what they include. Their reports concerning safety to health are totally acceptable to EPA and until it can be shown that their retardant chemicals are sickening and killing people they can continue their poisonous attacks on people and the environment.
You see, the chemical effects are more often chronic rather than acute. It takes some time for the bromates, lead, phylates and so forth to accumulate to a point that cancer sets in. Our bodies are amazing and can withstand so much chemical attack but there is a breaking point. Once over that threshold there is no turning back and with the huge rise in cancer the doctors are using even more toxic chemicals to try to extend peoples lives by a few weeks, or maybe months or years. Yet many of the doctors that use the chemo-therapies say they would refuse them if they themselves got the cancers.
Well there are only about 10 chemicals out of over 17,000 used in products including retardants, household goods, foods and just about anything we live with today. Even cosmetics or where ever they wish to hide a chemical dangerous to health they will list as a fragrance component. Fragrances are also trade secret and by law they do not even have to be reported to anyone including government as to their chemical make up.
It is a win situation to the big chemical companies and a loss to your health. Only about 10 chemicals have restricted use in the US out of the
more than 17,000. In European Common Market countries over 1200 are banned so the Europeans can sell products to the US that they can not sell in their own countries. That is how strong the American Chemical Council (ACC) is in keeping laws in force so people can not know what they are being subjected to.
The ACC is made up of a group of the most powerful chemical companies and industries and funded by hundreds of millions of dollars so that propaganda, promotion of products, and highly paid lobbyists with access to million dollar funding aimed at promoting friendships with lawmakers is available. ACC after all has resources from such people as DuPont, Monsanto, Standard Oil, Wal Mart, and on and on. It is a huge list of chemical producers and vendors of such products with secret ingredients so you can see that money is unlimited in such an organization to promote the protection and growth of their money trees.
If you look at all diseases including cancer, heart disease, renal problems, neurological problems, and many more you will see that since the 50’s and 60’s they have sky rocketed despite all the science to find cures.
And certainly I am a marvel of modern science. Doctors saved me from death more than once and I am talking of real death where you go down the tunnel and know your are dead–people that loose 4-5 units of blood go into a death situation that only extreme measures occasionally can bring them back–I had lost 6 units–my son a long time RN trauma ER hospital nurse said Dad you were dead–they brought you back and I spent $140 making sure the doctors and nurses working on you had coffee, donuts and whatever I could provide to keep them working.
Yet I might be fortunate but too many of the Yarnellites were not. Nothing brought them back and I have to feel the sadness of those facts. But also the sadness that I realize that many will live though life in a diminished condition due to the slow debilitating effects these chemicals take. Too many are living in such a diminished state it is a shame to our system when we see people having to visit the medical profession so often and even now children in cancer treatment or in diabetic or autistic states.
Do I expect my little talk about the retardant and other chemical evils will do much? Maybe I am naive enough to think it could help some one and if it should then it has been well said if you save a life then you save a world. It also might even save someone wise enough to think and research a life of misery.
Before I met Joy not very long I had a friend named Peggy Long. She had a disability where she could not speak. We made good friends cause she could not talk and I could not hear worth a damn. She had to write everything down and her scribbles were hard to define so when I would take her to the doctor or other places I often had to interpret her writhing. I always said she was a God send to teach people patience. And many did not have it and suffered frustration trying to contend with the slow method of communication and the ever presence of her Saint Bernard service dog.
Her one thing was that anytime I went to town, even if she did not go,. she would request cherry coke by the case. She drank it like a chain smoker smokes. I tried to tell her that it could not be good for health, yet as many people can be, she stubbornly adhered to her habit.
The result was she ended up with cancer. It came upon her suddenly and within a month she was breaking out in black tumors that had their black veins running off the tumor like the insidious killer it was.
When I got her to the hospital in great pain, the doctor said we can give you Chemo Therapy but either way you only have two weeks to live. She lived a little longer than that and I did care for her service animal and was there at its final death. The ordeal weighed heavily on me since I had cared for Peggy and truly felt that she was a chosen person. To see her die at the young age of 54 was a tragedy to me as even my son’s death was a tragedy.
Since I have come to the idea that the secret ingredients in the Coke had much to do with her cancers and death. I do not know what they add that is artificial chemicals to make it smell and taste like cherry coke but they can not be good.
I conclude that our health and well being is totally dependent upon our own knowledge and desire to avoid best we can the chemical world we now live in. You will not see much interest in the billionaires and their instigated laws and bought politicos in the common person’s health.
Tex Gilligan
3:13 PM (3 minutes ago)
to me
The more I study about the chemical situation the more I am appalled at the lack of information given to the wild land fire fighter about the dangers involved in breathing the gases produced and the effects on human health. Your chances of having respiratory, cancer, heart failure are excessive compared to the general population–your fate that similar to the coal , uranium and hard rock miner in later life.
You can certainly expect to have breathing difficulties in later life and from the low oxygen levels to your body you will eventually find yourself suffering heart attack and cancer if you survive the heart attack. To give you an idea of your future here are some figures concerning heart attack these days copied from a report of the Institute of Medicine concerning the 600,000 heart attacks that occur each year in the USA.
“Every year in the U.S., approximately 395,000 cases of cardiac arrest occur outside of a hospital setting, in which less than 6 percent survive. Approximately 200,000 cardiac arrests occur each year in hospitals, and 24 percent of those patients survive. Estimates suggest that cardiac arrest is the third leading cause of death in the U.S. behind cancer and heart disease.”
All my own heart attacks occurred outside the Hospital but the first one that laid me on the VA Hospital parking lot also killed me, yet modern science in some instances can save you. Since only 6 out of a hundred survive an outside heart attack I can now understand when Joy said you know Sonny there were 9 heart attack victims in the Prescott Hospital but you were the only one that survived that week. She had been consoling those that had lost loved ones while I was still in intensive care.
So even in a hospital you chance of surviving a heart attack is only one in four but there one in nine although some survived for the week. This heart business is very serious. Sudden cardiac deaths (SCD) account for roughly 40–50% of annual duty-related fatalities in the fire service. So despite the risk of being a fireman, your risk of dying by a heart attack as a fireman is much greater.
I had to wonder why so many fire fighters die from heart attack. Then I had to know about Phos Chek and other retardants with the chemical toxins that can not be avoided by the fire fighter.
Yet it is not only the fire fighter that has a death knoll due to the chemicals. Some of the very same chemicals are found in dynamite fumes, gun powder fumes, rocket fumes and other industries especially where noxious gases are produced from heat applications. Plastic workers are especially subject to these problems–though more toward the cancer problems.
But to give you and idea of what firefighters, miners, and people that breath such things as burned retardants, explosion gases, propellant gases and diesal and gasoline exhausts here are some effects of one chemical class only–Nitrogen. I will list only the Nitrous dioxide since it is most common –Nitrous Oxide and Nitrous Trioxice have similar effects and this is from an Army Medical Report:
TABLE 10-11
TOXIC EFFECTS OF HUMAN EXPOSURE TO
NITROGEN DIOXIDE
NO 2
(ppm)
Exposure
Time (min) Effects/Comments
1,000 15 Immediate incapacitation;
respiratory and eye injury
followed by death
100 60 Immediate respiratory and eye
injury with progressive respira-
tory injury and death
50 60 Immediate respiratory and eye
irritation with possible sub-
acute and chronic pulmonary
lesions
25 60 Immediate respiratory irritation
with chest pain
5 60 Acute reversible respiratory
function effects
5 15 ACGIH’s STEL
∼1 60 Equivocal respiratory function
effects and impaired dark
adaptation of vision
The report talks of Geman Soldies that had died in their tanks from this Nitrous Oxide poison –the gases off firing their tanks.
You see, Phos Chek and other similar retardants contain and produce much of these gases once they encounter the fires. And Nitrous Oxide is just one of the lung killers along with the ammonium and other chemcals known and unknown produced when retardant is applied to fire.
In the study that I pasted about Nitrous Oxide on health, Germans were using repirators filled with carbon and sodium carbonate. The scientists doing the study surmised that the masks were likely concentrating the Nitrous Oxide rather than reducing it–why so many Germans were getting ill despite the respirators.
The scientists also stated that in our new age of chemicals and changes in gunpowder, etc there are even more dangerous chemicals involved. For instance mentioned was the white smoke you see from rocket launches. That is mostly hydrogen chloride gas mixed with other chemicals that if you breath for a while will kill you just as dead as the Nitrous Oxides will.
So it is no wonder that wild land fire fighters and other firefighters are on a journey that is time lapsed– your chemical intake is much more dangerous than the job you do–well unless you get a boss who is too stupid to follow safety rules.
That nitrous oxide copy paste thing was in columns. The 60 meant constant exposure of say 1000ppm or also 100ppm for 60 minutes equals ensuing respiratory and eye problems ending in death.
The final thing was approximately 1ppm minute of exposure resulting in impaired night vision.. etc
The facts are not debatable. There are enough out there to offer some solid reasons as to why 19 men are dead. One was the careless, needless and thoughtless risk of 17 young lives by their leaders, although Jesse Steed did give some thought and argument against the risk. We do not know how much Marsh’s bosses were involved but there has to be some culpability there as well since Marsh was also taking orders.
We know that the risk to “protect structures” was also taken breaking every safety rule in the book known and taught to fire fighters and fire fighter leaders. Of the four LESC rules all were broken. This knowing that the fire could not have in any way been deterred by waving Pulaskis or by squiting 5 gallon back packs at it. It was of megafire proportions being driven by fierce winds in the densest of dehydrated manzanita growth releasing energies equal to a Hiroshima type A Bomb according to fire scientists Morrison and Wooten. To get in front of it or caught in a dangerous box canyon choked with manzanta was comparabole to suicide and certain horrendous death.
No one can debate the facts as stated above. But what can be debated is policies. The policies to redact facts in order to maintain a false story, the policy to threaten peoples livelihood and careers, the policy to make every fire fighting death an accident, and the policy to do everything possible to give a great public image to the Yarnell Fire Fighting incident and every debacle at fire fighting a fairy land Cinderella ending can be changed. Lives matter and truth matters and nothing will gain by subterfuge but much will be lost by refusing to face the facts
Order was off on LCES but so non fire fighters know and in case Donut types that rely on bosses instead of not knowing the “hillbilly” safety rules abreviated as LCES:
What are these rules? We would have the GMHS crew all here and alive today had they been followed instead of being considered “hillbilly”.
Lookouts
Have experience to recognize potential threats
Be decisive
Communicate clearly
Be in a position to see potential threats and the entire crew
Be in a safe location
Communications
Have a communication plan
Command to retreat must be clearly understood by all
Escape Routes
Easily traveled and lead away from the fire, directly to the safety zone
If there is cut-off potential, two routes should be planned and discussed
Establish new escape routes as the effectiveness diminishes
Safety Zones
Locations of adequate refuge from advancing fire
Large enough for all who might use them
Located for effectiveness
Large enough for protection without a fire shelter.
All these commonsense rules were broken on June 30,2013. That is scary considering no mention of this was made in any official report and Investigative media wild land fire fighters are about the only ones that drum on this tragic event that certainly would have been avoided by observing the commonsense safety rules.
To not do so is tantamount to murder.
Simply put :
There was no Lookout posted–the Lookout man was left in a vulnerable position two canyons over and out of sight of the crew.
There was no communication. According to official reports there was a black out of communication from when the crew left the black until they were within seconds of dying.
There certainly was no escape route once dropped of the two track and down into a box canyon choke full of manzanita.
There was no available safety zone although the Helms was touted to be. Truth was you would have died outside the home and it was a very precarious situation even inside the home. Fire damage was such that even the tires on antique vehicles burned off in the defensible space. Also, the area would not have met requirements in that definitely safety blankets would have been in order and likely useless to save lives outside the residence.
Since I am not a wild land fire fighter, my observations are open to debate. Maybe Holly can chime in on this one since she was a visitor at the Helms for 11 days some time after the fire.
Credit where credit is due: that posting of LCES was a copy and paste from googling title LCES — Your Best Defense California fire fighters
Thanks to WTKTT for showing the McKenzie photo. If I am thinking of where it was taken near their lunch spot, then it would have missed a bunch of territory. If Joy has some photos of that same perspective it would be nice to see and better if someone could find the spot then photograph and look at what could not be seen. At that time it seems the smoke was going pretty much straight up or perhaps a bit to the south.
That North Ridge of the death canyon would cover up much territory from the lunch spot area and specifically if there were any burns near the Helms. But again it will take someone to come on and let us know exactly where burns were being made and the times involved.
There is substance to what DND has said–has he or will he give us more as to times and locations of any his friends have revealed? I appreciate his posts and know he is no green horn in the wild land fire fighting area. He has plenty expertise and I believe his statements are highly credible though I would like more clarification.
On the Mendocino Complex, the report is also mostly false.
( https://wildfiretoday.com/documents/Green_Sheet_Retardant_Drop_Fatality.pdf )
WFs and FFs that were there stated that because the 2018 CA fire behavior was so extreme and the CDF was so bewildered about it, they had asked WFs and FFs to “document the fire behavior” in photos and videos for research and such.
The DIVS had a large firing operation with a lot of Resources over a large area planned and was told by Air Operations personnel and Operations personnel that they wanted to pretreat the area with VLAT retardant drops SEVERAL TIMES.
And the DIVS told the Overhead SEVERAL TIMES that they wanted NO retardant because of all his Resources spread out over a large area and because of the twists and turns in the control line which would end up with retardant where he did NOT want it. SEVERAL TIMES!
Finally, some Overhead called him on the Command channel and basically very matter-of-factually told him that they didn’t care what he thought about him wanting no retardant and that they were overriding him and that he was going to get the retardant drops anyway, so he’d better get his people out of the proposed drop zone.
Ultimately, the VLAT came in VERY, VERY LOW and dropped VERY HEAVY on top of the Engine. The SAIR is fairly accurate on the damage, death, and destruction that ensued. Several FFs inside the cab of the Engine were seriously injured and another Engine Strike Team came to assist with Basic Life Support.
These Engine guys that administered the BLS said it was “f**ked up” and the FFs inside the cab were also “f**ked up” and the overall experience “f**ked us up” dealing with all of it … and they are STILL coping with it.
They were told to sign “Non-disclosure statements” and they sternly refused and succeeded.
These are the bullets included in the CDF Green Sheet (page 5) “SAFETY ISSUES FOR REVIEW”:
“Aerial drops are inherently hazardous and caution should be used when working in areas with aircraft operations.
“Supervisors must ensure all fire line personnel are notified and acknowledge impending aerial drops (fixed wing and rotary wing). When personnel are working under a tree canopy, supervisors must ensure the drop path is cleared.
“Fire personnel need to always maintain situational awareness”
The DIVS was heeding each one of these and did his level best to be proactive. You’ll notice there is NO mention of any of the above details from those that were on that incident and recounted what they experienced. And he too is dealing with all of it … and he is STILL coping with it.
RTS-that report goes to show how determined these retardant people are to get that retardant down. I wonder would water do the same damage to individuals as the retardant–one thing it is much lighter in weight and I imagine much less dangerous when dropped on people? Something you would know whether firemen have been injured like that by water drops?
I caught the news tonight on Antarctic snows. The former pristine snows there are now tainted with micro plastic and rubber particles. So we are breathing in plastic and rubber particles along with the other chemical pollutants in the air.. You can imagine the amount of micro particles you are breathing after the retardant dumps–if they do not kill you with the actual drop, then they will get you after with plenty of micro particles in the air. Those micro particles of plastic and rubber contain some highly toxic chemicals that are constantly floating in our air and though in small amounts add up. But can you imagine being right in the area of a toxic retardant dump? You will get a good heavy dose of some of the nastiest killer toxins available.
It should be no wonder that the Yarnell area had such a high death and illness count. The cyanide created is just one of the deadliest of chemicals breathed in but you have to know it is only a small portion of the concoction that is dispersed into the smoke and air.
I see that the gold mine near me that wanted to use cyanide in their gold separation process drew in enough protesters that the mine is not going to use it after all. People are getting wise to these deadly chemicals. Yet as long as we have retardant dumped into the environment with the smoke, plastic, rubber and other toxins in the air, cancer, heart disease, COPD and other chemical related diseases will continue to plague us.
A young man will do well to become a medical practitioner–it has a great future and will continue to be short on personnel. Wild land fire fighters and others in related work along with miners and others working in chemical areas will greatly contribute to the medical profession. Sadly so will the general population since even they are getting enough of the tainted air, yet not so much.
I think Gary is onto something about the respirators and I am reminded of Zack Ashoor
died not too long after his hikes into the retardant infected area around Yarnell. He was on the respiratory board for the State of Arizona and trying to invent a system where wild land fire fighters might have a portable source of oxygen. He would have been well advised had he lived to also work on a better system to filter out the poisons the fire fighter is breathing in concentrated amounts.
Are these companies spending some of their hundreds of billions on doing something along that order? No chance since they are feeding you hidden chemicals and even denying that these chemicals they disperse are harmful to health. They have to know they are. harming the health of people, animals and aquatic animals and environment. Yet they know the longer they can maintain the farce that their retardants are harmless the more of the billions they can rake in. Certain somewhere they will have to pay out a few hundred millions for the damage they are doing but this is chump change compared to the hundreds of billions they are collecting from their toxic dispensing.
Just as the Monsanto people were never held criminally responsible for the PCB’s and other deadly chemicals they have dispersed, neither will the retardant companies be charged and they know that.
Trump celebrating the plastic factory on the Ohio river is another example of ignorance among our illustrious leader. He has to know that the whole planet is becoming toxic and in a way that is unconscionable. His supporting the Saudi Arabians to build 17 nuclear plants because he sees an opportunity to sell them plans, parts and Uranium as well as military weapons and at the same time keep oil flowing our way is a crime in itself. He has to know the Saudis en mass were celebrating the deaths of the thousands at the fall of the twin towers–what more do you need to know that you are dancing with the Devil–that Devil that wants to kill you. How can you explain except for a puny mind such as that except that greed, need to make “America Great” by such stupidity. Who really does he represent beyond the interests of the industries?
Certain the future for making America Great Again is going to be interesting but not in the way Trump and his cronies industrialists are portraying it. There will be plenty of woe and sadness now the line.
Unfortunately, it is once again to time to announce the anniversaries for two separate wildland fire fatalities, namely the 2016 Strawberry Fire on the Great Basin National Park in Nevada and the 2018 Mendocino Complex in California.
And it is also once more, me kinda slacking and being a day late in the announcements because of being committed to working on the Washington, DC AHFE Conference post with Joy.
And yes, once more there are the cover-up, lies, and whitewash associated with all wildand fire fatalities.
The Strawberry Fire records are within the Wildland Fire LLC (WFLLC) which I have never been able to provide a link, so I will provide at least the data listed on the WFLLC website. So the, just GTS the fire based on the information provided below.
Strawberry Fire – Strawberry Fire Tree Strike Fatality (2016) – Incident Date: 8/13/2016
[State]: Nevada; [Date]: 08/13/2016; [Incident Type]: Hit by Tree
#HitbyTree #Medevac #FallingOperation #HandCrews #Nevada #Fatality
Strawberry_Fire_Fatality_Learning_Review.pdf 3.28MB – Uploaded – 06-09-2017
Updated Strawberry Fire Fatality 72 Hour Report 648K – Uploaded – 08-31-2016
Strawberry Fire Fatality 72 Hour Report – Uploaded – 08-20-2016
Strawberry Fire Fatality 24 Hour Report 45K – Uploaded – 08-15-2016
Strawberry_Fire_Fatality_Press_Release.pdf 240K – Uploaded – 08-15-2016
Strawberry_Fire_USFA_Notification.pdf 147K
_______________________________
The Mendocino Complex fatality information is provided in Wildfire Today and is tilted: “Report released about firefighter fatality — trees were broken off during retardant drop
Draper City, Utah Battalion Chief Matthew Burchett was killed when a low drop uprooted an 87-foot tall tree that fell on him”
( https://wildfiretoday.com/2018/09/14/report-released-about-firefighter-fatality-trees-were-broken-off-during-retardant-drop/#comments )
___________________________
Strawberry Fire
I was a Safety Officer on the Strawberry Fire in another Division and we provided two EMTs, a Paramedic, and cell phone coordination.
In Figure 4 on page 8 of the “Learning Review Report,” the fatality occurred on top of the main ridge in the photo and the fatality occurred on a small bench, basically flat ground. However, this quote begins to set the stage for part of the cover-up: “The ground was decent at the bottom of the drainage, then got bad mid-slope, then super-bad towards the top. – Lolo IHC Superintendent”
In Figure 5 of the “Learning Review Report,” the following “confirms” their move toward cover-up with this caption: “FIGURE 5: REPRESENTATIVE TERRAIN, GROUND COVER, AND PRESENCE OF RETARDANT ON DIV A ” and Figure 6 provides an overall map of the fire and accident scene: “FIGURE 6: MAP SHOWING CREW LOCATIONS ON AUGUST 13, 2016.”
In Figure 7 on page 10 of the “Learning Review Report,” the following “confirms” their move toward cover-up with this caption: “FIGURE 7: DETAIL OF TERRAIN WHERE SAW TEAM 1 WAS WORKING.”
In Figure 8 on page 12 of the “Learning Review Report,” clearly indicates some serious obfuscation and outright lies with this ARTISTIC DRAWN IMAGE in “FIGURE 8: DETAIL OF STRIKE TREE AND SUPPORT TREE.”
On page 11 of the “Learning Review Report,” is this completely false statement regarding the actual distance from the hazard tree: “Approximately 15 feet away from his cutting position, he was struck on the top of his hard hat about 2/3 of the way up on the falling strike tree. Saw Team 1 Lead Sawyer estimates the entire sequence of events from first saw cut to the strike took less than a minute.”
The actual distance was quite a bit further, more like 50 feet “away from his cutting position.” The “he was struck on the top of his hard hat about 2/3 of the way up on the falling strike tree” portion is correct
An that pattern fits with what a SAIT “investigator” told us one time during a HS Workshop discussion about the April 1993 fatality on the USFS Santa Fe NF Buchanan Prescribed Fire in north-central New Mexico Buchanan RX, ” There is a grain of truth in everything I said. ”
In Figure A7 on page 35 of the “Learning Review Report,” clearly indicates some further serious obfuscation and outright lies with this same (Figure 8) or similar ARTISTIC DRAWN IMAGE in “FIGURE A7: SUPPORT TREE STANDING WITH LOCATION PRIOR TO CUT. THE SUPPORT TREE IS VISIBLE AT LEFT. REMNANTS OF STRIKE TREE ON GROUND. ”
On page 35 of the “Learning Review Report,” indicates a much more realistic view of the ground Justin Bebe was struck by the “FIGURE A8: LOOKING DOWNHILL FROM BASE OF STRIKE TREE TO WHERE IT CAME TO REST, SUSPENDED ABOVE THE GROUND.”
On page 39 of the “Learning Review Report,” begins “APPENDIX C: HELMET REPORT. The following report is based on interviews and visual examination of accident site photos and the helmet.” However, this photo is a completely different Lolo HS hardhat compared to the one that Bebe was wearing when he was struck by the felled dead standing hazard tree in “FIGURE C1: FRONT AND REAR VIEW OF HELMET SHOWING OUTER SHELL SURFACE SCUFFMARKS.”
On page 40 of the “Learning Review Report,” is a completely different Lolo HS hardhat suspension compared to the one that Bebe was wearing when he was struck by the felled dead standing hazard tree in “FIGURE C2: INSIDE VIEW OF HELMET SUSPENSION WITH DETACHED SUSPENSION KEYS. THE SUSPENSION RATCHET KNOB IS MISSING.”
Here, the LR disingenuously and quite falsely notes: ” However, we could not quantify the actual total force that detached these keys. ” What BS we have here! They know completely well the force, that this man was struck with that took his life – maybe not “the actual total force” .
In reality – based on statements made by the two EMTs and the Paramedic – Bebe’s helmet was shattered and the suspensions completely collapsed. They said his fatal injury was basically the result of severe neck trauma so these images of “a hardhat” do NOT reflect the true damage to a hardhat hit with this amount of force.
This was a text thread to one of the alleged “Investigators” – “Subject Strawberry Fire
Good afternoon. Pretty disappointed about the Strawberry Fire Fatality Review
“The Accident” page 11, middle paragraph regarding the “15 feet.” More like 50 feet
“Figures 5-7 regarding the typical slopes we were working on but NOT where fatality occurred.
“Figure 8 is phony idealized drawing of support tree and hang ups on a 60% to 70% slope. Totally false when compared to my photo.
“Appendix C, last 2 pages blatant >. Medical personnel stated his helmet brim on struck side and suspension were shattered, including all support clips.”
His response was: “I’m sorry to hear you are disappointed in the report. Multiple agencies and people spend a tremendous amount of time on that report including myself.”
The reply was: “Thanks for getting back to me. I have no doubts at all that you all spent a tremendous amount of time on that report. However, it sure appears to me and others that were there that there was an intent to deceive with those things I mentioned in my text to you. I’m disappointed with the CRP concept in general, except for the sense making portion.”
And there is a June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire connection to the Strawberry Fire. The Paramedic was the Fire Chief of the Yarnell FD.
>> His response was: “I’m sorry to hear you are disappointed in the report.
>> Multiple agencies and people spend a tremendous amount of time on
>> that report including myself.”
Classic non-denial denial.
Just “spending time” is never the point.
The point is to get it RIGHT.
They spent a tremendous amount of time on that report in order to deftly and deceitfully wordsmith it and tweek it enough to falsify the details and the truth.
“To respect words and their conveyance of reality is to show respect to the very foundation of reality. To manipulate words is to seek to manipulate truth and to instead choose falsity and illusion over reality. The manipulation of words is itself a violent act. …” (emphasis added) The authors confidently argue, this ongoing, unsettling truth manipulation has occurred with all wildfire SAIT Reports, Reviews, and the like where WFs were killed by fire.
Cummins, M. (2011) Words: Pieper’s “Abuse of Language, Abuse of Power.” The Alternative Path
( https://thealternatepath.org/2011/05/25/words-piepers-abuse-of-language-abuse-of-power/ )
It also reeks of the insidious term ” Doublethink ” that George Orwell describes in his novel “Nineteen Eighty-Four”: “Simply put, doublethink is the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in one’s mind at the same time. … To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to [be] contradictory and believing in both of them …”
At 19,200 gallons of retardant those pilots dropped 120 tons of retardant in 2 seconds at only 191 ft above ground. That would be enough force to knock any firefighter down and out with a broken body–likely killed from that force alone. How is it that the life of a wild land fire fighter is rated so low that men would be anywhere subjected to such a situation. That force would also definitely uproot trees and at that low elevation and that much retardant would be about like having a ton of bricks coming down on you.
The more I understand about the fire fighting system, the more I see that it is a situation where too little care is taken for the lives of the people on the line doing the grunt work. The public knows little of the absolute carelessness of situations that are not addressed properly simply because the powers that be continue to hide the facts about these situations. No remedy can be made if the truth is hidden.
It seems that anything that might impede the dropping of retardant or the reputations involved or the facts that the fire fighter is dealing with the most dangerous and toxic of situations will continue unabated simply because there is too much money on the money tree that is threatened.
The little man on the line is given a pittance of a wage and kept ignorant of the real risks to his life and future health. These companies spend millions and if need be hundreds of millions to keep their profits of hundreds of billions. With the money they make even a billion spent is resented but feasible to keep a money tree in the green. So the fight to get the truth out in these situations will be a tough go when you can see that every death or injury is treated as an accident and part of the job–no fault and no bad decisions and no bad guys at work who make up the cover stories.
I can tell you being the hero is just not enough. When later in life the hero is dying of COPD, other lung issues, heart disease, cancer, renal problems and so forth the hero part is diminished and his life is shortened. If being a hero means you have to give up ten to twenty years of your life or more to a miserable disease then it is an exercise in futility. The truth needs to be told so that solutions that can insure a full healthy life for the hero can be had. These profiteers are not out to insure that simply because it will hurt their profits.
So the battle goes mostly to the man with the gold until he is found out. And these connivers always have plan B, and likely even C, D, and F. Like the Nazi killing Jews would say, I was just obeying my orders-how can I be to blame?
And yes there is a provblem of abuse of power–the Stanford experiment of allowing cookie cutter type students play prisoners and guards proved that kids from the “norm” of society can turn into monsters once they are given power to do so. The abuse became so terrible from the guards that the two week experiment had to be stopped within only 6 days.
Those in power are quite apt and capable of abuse as we saw at Yarnell and the cover up there. People were ordered to keep their mouths shut and threatened with their careers if they were to testify of what they knew or saw. DND’s statements verify exactly of how abusive the powers that be were–even a probation officer was threatened to keep quiet. I personally heard his statements with Joy in presence where he said he received a letter that told him he best be quiet or his 3 years left to retirement could be lost. With only three years to retirement he had no choice –or loose all those years. A man that is a probation officer is not one to fabricate a story like that. But that is the abuse dished out by that system of wild land fire fighting commanders.
But the worse abuse was to order those 19 down into a death canyon and even to leave Donut in a death situation.
People want to say there is no blame–those fools are the ones that want to maintain their reputations and are doing so at the peril of the safety of those young men that have not matured in wild land fire fighting. It is quite apparent that the commanders have allowed men in positions where it is of utmost importance that they know the dangers and how to follow safety rules without question. They want to make Marsh a hero but he was a killer instead by his careless actions with his crew. It can not be accomplished unless you fudge the facts, make mum orders and threats, and provide a story then back it with half truths and black outs of information.
No matter what, the truth will come out on this one. I happen to have been exactly where Marsh and then his crew went down into that box canyon and not long before they left that two track to their demise. I saw the fire and knew the denseness of that canyon and damn well knew that once that fire reversed you would be a dead one trapped in that box canyon with no way to get back up that steep box. So do not tell me Marsh and whoever else was involved with killing those men gave any thought to the lives of those young men. Every structure in Yarnell was not worth one life of those young fire fighters. And waving a Pulaski at a flaming front of burning manzanita in the hottest and worst of dehydrated conditions when an Army would have retreated showed me that I do not want to be a wild land fire fighter that takes orders on a daily basis with strict military type obedience. You got to be kidding me when you have bosses like I saw at Yarnell.
Gary, charcoal respirators work best for mop up and working the line but moderate to extreme exertions, it is hard to get air and it filters out the particulate matter but not the dangerous carbon monoxide (C0) so I disagree with you and I am just “housewife hiker” and never will be a Round Hat Bagpipe Blower. There is indeed during mop-up and in the inversions that smoke inhalation is a concern or as you call it – an issue.
Gary, does that mean I have mangina if I think like that and disagree with you?
would carry a mask myself and as you know Gary – Sonny and I in our first hikes wore masks so we get you there,
I do not see the logic of tying DHD to Prescott Hotshots? and would he be here if he was neck up in the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra (Our Thing) ???
As a housewife hiker and new to the Fire Industry – Student of Fire I think it begins with you Gary and it only take sone so keep on that campaign….you are only doomed if you ALLOW yourself to feel that way….stay the course.
Make your bones on the PHS???? Like the Mighty Coconino were it in the day – are they still? You been out awhile…
I know Tony Sciacca is considered the “grandfathered-in” Wildland politician or advocate to train up new firefighters yet in my assessment some of the current need “re-training”….Really they do-
see this:
https://youtu.be/tAg3WuuKpTk
Do you see the PPE concerns there, Gary???
Mark Zumwalt – man he has to be about 70 nowadays – is he still bending nails? or widdling? Last I heard he was coasting by your area…
You said you knew Tony back in the day- how do you think he has changed since then?
Gary said:
So…you have convinced me to drop my one-person respirator campaign because you’re right, there are thousands of people who know everything I know and a lot more including those jerk offs up at MEDC and that certainly includes you.
WTF? so people are jerk offs if we engage with you and share our thoughts? Come on, really ? Behave…I am the biggest jerk off than there is because I always share my thoughts with you… 😉
You colored always inside the box my ass…Dr Ted Putnam is one I can see to do that not you, sir.
my mailing address is still the same and is found on http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com –
Ed Dewitt Hollenshead – wonder how he is nowadays – probably PV’ing it … be interesting to sit down and talk with him about the 80’s …
You gave Donut a coin and not me….what gives ??? I have shared more on the YH Fire than he has (sad face)
Get your site back up- seems the links to it keeps “tabbing” Eric Marsh- go see.
Try your last link with the cowboy in it.
About your health- feel read bad you face that in your retirement but please let the world any other causal factors besides the smoke that may have contributed….
You still going to Moab?
please tell me what the doctors say about your throat and lungs on this thread after you see them and your Special Lady Friend has made it a condition before she will go out to dinner with you and she has a one track mind on the subject. So…
So let her know – it should not matter – one is at your side at all times… right???
Woodsman stated:
Back to the top. I hate to make a rule but how about we leave this here so Downhillndirect can give a reply? How about it, Downhillndirect? Why did your very close friend die with his crew? I think you know or at least have an opinion on it and I believe now is the time to let us know.
I get that DHD made it to this forum but what were you thinking to ask this…and why should he have to start believing IM is the place and it is the time because you wrote it… really? That sucks. I encouraged some folks to get into the feel to write here and I think respect is lacking…when I am on the Weavers and Steed comes to me. He is happy and at peace and feels for the ones he left behind as they struggle and he had this way about him when I walked with Mando and the Weather Channel that you can still feel the presence of Steed on the Weavers and it is not funny to just come out and say come on tell us your opinions…if and when he opts to than fine…you got your inquiry out but reverse it Woodsman and someone asked you that to someone you grew up and think about it before you answer on how so far so many do not like DHD because he does not answer your direct questions and gets torn here…that’s messed up….
Woodsman said:
I’ve been informed you don’t really like answering questions, even though that was what you initially said you came here to do… but since query/response is still pretty much the engine that drives a public forum like this… it’s gonna happen.
he still comes here. Free place to come….just because people do not engage does not mean much…Diane Lomas, I asked direct stuff to you – HOW COME YOU WON’T TELL ME … I think I will pick on you Diane because you don’t answer me…you know Diane it was just an example not factual…it is just childish and ridiculous the whole topic…
Woodsman said:
There has always been a report that on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013, Jesse made a cellphone call to a male “friend” and confided to him that “Eric Marsh is going to get us killed”.
it will be in our next post this topic.
Wtktt said:
How did Jesse really feel about working with PFD / GM and/or Eric Marsh?
I actually would like to hear from all FFs and WFs that knew and worked with Steed their views there versus back channel chatters.
Sonny said:
Joy, I know you said you had plenty more to post after the Washington visit. I would like to know more of what the Washington visit entailed. Seems like those people in the thousands were also paying in the thousands to occupy a seat–was it worth the money and did you make it so?
I never got the email back with actual numbers so yes it was thousands y what other presenters stated yet you have to understand the conference was set up in ball room to conference room settings with classroom size allotment of chairs if that helps you…and I am working on post but more outdoors laboring to get rid of the detox and travel cruds…so when it happens – it will …I am in no hurry to get it out and there is also one area I am awaiting to travel and so if that happens first than it still waits but in August God-willing it will be up but nothing you have to go oh gotta see…remember Sonny- Summer is not over…also keep in mind…organizing on a ten year old pc is frustrating and tedious thing too…
It’s part of my frustration on how long it takes to find out the truth about all of the circumstances surrounding the demise of almost an entire hotshot crew. No disrespect intended. I doubt I’m the only one who would like to get some questions answered. I’m no longer willing to pay the cost of waiting around for some or attempting to prove that I have earned the right to get any. Take care.
yeah Woodsman – get that
yet I only had one of you take me up on the offer to organize my documents and it was retired RTS who stepped up and has been helping to organize the data on my ten year old computer that when I type a few words forty four seconds later it appears so I get you on frustrations
John Dougherty last Summer wanted me to dump the data to him when it is not just Fire data on my EHD- it is a needle in a haystack of my other stuff in life too so it was not something I can just move this to there – otherwise it would have been done so it is what it is…
it is to much data and RTS can confirm if he ever gets off the pc organizing and ever comes here again…
No reason to leave…I have a right to say my say and you have a right to yours… shoot we here on not even the ones who should be speaking up – its the people on the YH Fire but the next posts do offer a sneak peak into 3pm to 4 pm Fire Behavior since they always like to cut away a lot of that data … more have some and more need to speak up but it ain’t us on IM
Sigh…I was referring to the experts up at MEDC as being jerk offs because they all keep making up pseudo science reasons why respirators aren’t necessary, but they do know a lot about the subjunctive even though I don’t agree with what they know,
I was including Downhill Direct in the group of people who know a lot and don’t need me to tell them about the issues with smoke inhalation because of his fire background, especially as a hotshot with eleven years of experience, not with the group of jerk off experts who have made all of those ridiculous statements over the years from their previous smoke inhalation studies.
If a former hotshot tells me he doesn’t think respirators will work, I can accept that. If an expert from MEDC says the same thing, they are jerk offs because they haven’t been there and done that on the fire line and it’s not their health I’m worried about.
I said in my last post I’m am out of the argument game regarding respirators. Thousands of people know more about it than I do and that certainly includes Downhill Direct. Those people need to decide if WLF need or can use respirators, it was presumptuous of me to tell a hotshot with 11 years of experience he didn’t know what he was talking about, so I have tried to apologize to him but I guess I wasn’t clear. So…
I hereby and forever apologize to DHD for arguing with him about the need for respirators, I’m not going to argue with anyone anymore on this thread because I’m not participating anymore on this thread, I have done as much as I can for the memory of the crew and future WLF in my own way, and now it’s up to others who know more than I do and are more connected to the WLF on the fire line today
But let me make myself perfectly clear, I am out of ALL of the argument games, especially with you JOY, but especially with everyone else as well.
So to quote the Woodsman, “It’s part of my frustration on how long it takes to find out the truth about all of the circumstances surrounding the demise of almost an entire hotshot crew. No disrespect intended. I doubt I’m the only one who would like to get some questions answered. I’m no longer willing to pay the cost of waiting around for some or attempting to prove that I have earned the right to get any. Take care.” I’m going Jeeping.
We will be having a Trump visit to the new plastic plant being built along the Ohio River and covering 386 acres near Monaco, Pennsylvania It is amazing how so many polluting industries wind up near our rivers including the most deadly of all, the nuclear plants. But this plastic plant will be producing a million tons of plastic per year. Talk about the mother of all polluting industries, the plastic world has taken us by a storm. The dangerous chemicals used become part of the plastic anywhere from ppm to percentages depending upon the type plastic. Some poly vinyl Chlorides PVC’s have up to 40% and regardless, the dangerous chemicals do leach out into the environment. Even low level BPA from the leach can cause inflammation and heart disease. So you can bet our intelligent President will be waving the America is Great slogan and look how I created more jobs by bringing this poisonous industry right to our rivers. Yes but what will he say to the destruction of human health and the aquatic life and pollution this stuff is. And what will they do with the poisonous solutions of waste created by the plastic making process? The chemicals added to this plastic requires full face respirators. They are deadly and if inhaled are guaranteed to make you future life m
Coincidentally the Flame Retardants use many of the same and similar poisonous chemicals. I am not sure those flimsy face masks even carbon based will do much to save the wild land fire fighter from future health miseries. Full face masks are required in handling many of the chemicals used making the flame retardants and to not use them guarantees a future life of health disasters–from heart disease to cancer to renal problems and in general situations that keep the medical profession in business and the human victim in misery.
I do believe that if you are a fire fighter then you just better understand that you are devoting yourself to an occupation that will cause you to sacrifice in more ways than you can imagine. Your life will guaranteed to be shortened, if not by careless action of your bosses or accident, then by the chemicals you will breath. The latter will likely take some time to affect you if you are young but if you are already compromised, the effects may be accute.
Brominated fire retardants are most effective. However they are among the most dangerous. They produce the dioxins well known to cause all sorts of malaise. They produce chemicals abbreviated as PBDEs very similar to PCBs known to enter fat tissues and causing neuro toxic effects and thyroid dysfunction.
Supposedly the Feds are phasing out the use of Bromates in fire retardants whatever that means–in 20 years?
Then I had once mentioned that lead since its compounds degrade in specific gravity only to a small degree would be good weight additives to fire retardant. Gary had informed us that the problem with just water is that it disperses in the air thinly so it is hard to lay a good line of it whereas fire retardant is heavier and will lay a better line. To my surprise in researching retardants, lead is added to some fire retardants. Is it one of the secret ingredients? You realize that lead in gasoline was “phased out” as well since the lead does all kinds of destruction to human health.
How much is 10 or 20 years of a human life worth–to him, to the government, or to the companies that make and distribute these poisons. How much can you compensate a person willing to work under the conditions that guarantee a shorter life span? Seems to me like the fire fighter ought to be one of the highest paid individuals on the planet–at least it would have to be for me since I do value my life highly and that even after being dead twice.
In other words what puny wages we are paying these people subjected to the chemicals and smoke–much like our coal miners and uranium miners–in later life shortened in life or commiserated for their occupational caused diseases.
Then to think we would take imprisoned people and use them without wage to battle these fires. We are indeed an inhumane population to allow such.
It is the great good of truth that saves lives and makes things right. The villains spreading the toxins are not making America Great Again.
And can you imagine–5000 new jobs at that toxic plastic plant that is slated to produce a million tons of plastic per year. So Trump can not only tout his efforts to make America Great Again with the plastic plant but can you imagine 5000 plastic plant employees walking around Trump with their full face respirators on? I am certain they will have a full face one on Trump–will we be able to hear his glory speech of the great thing he did for America?
Not only that he created a whole new industry in manufacturing full face respirators. And think also of the greater need of world wide industries to clean up the pollutants in the environment. Somebody has to clean up the dead fish, make a stab at cleaning up hundreds of square miles of swirling plastic in our oceans and land and think of all the new medical people needed to treat the increase in cancers and heart disease from the pollutants. Yes Trump you do well for the economy and the fellow needing a job. Maybe we will all soon need full face respirators–that will really be an economy booster.
Really long sigh…..Joy, I have stated many times that respirators can’t be worn during arduous activity. Do you read what I write and if you do, how is your comprehension at understanding simple concepts?
I have always written that respirators CAN NOT be worn during arduous activity…what the FUCK is wrong with you people and WHY do I have to keep defending something I never wrote? This is because it likes breathing into a paper bag and you would pass out because you can’t get enough new air in fast enough, I fucking know that…I wore a fucking respirator for 7 years as a hotshot…why the FUCK do I have to keep repeating myself?
But…respirators can always be worn during mop up and even during many other times like going into a porta potty, believe me, you will thank me that you have one. And they can ALWAYS be worn during mop and that is BY FAR when WLF are subjected to the very worst smoke and particle inhalation.
And FYI…that is because NOBODY works hard or “arduously” at mop up!
And FYI, I often just kept my dangling from around my knock on one strap so that during odd times when smoke came and went I could just reach up with one hand and temporarily hold it over my nose and mouth, YOU PEOPLE ARE NOT using your imaginations to look for the grey areas where respirators will work, you keep trying to make everything black and white, by saying respirators can’t work and I say you are full of shit because I made one work for seven years and it really helped me. Now…as far as the rest of you go…FUCK OFF and go and do whatever you want. You have been warned what could happen to you…case closed. You all have to keep one thing in mind. My race is over….I WON!
Oh…and one more thing Joy. A challenge coin plus sever WLF patchedIS what I have been promising I am going to send you for about a year now. It’s on its way, just as soon as I get everything boxed up. There is one for RTS, Sonny and the rest of your posse for the next time you all get together for your annual fire site meeting.
I left all of the others with Willis to distribute like the one that went to Sad Sack.
This respirator thing is of utmost importance. Too many wild land fire fighters of long service are proof of that. If you check the statistics you will find that they as a group are bound to suffer in later years. And when you are young you do not have the knowledge and wisdom of the fellow that had been there and is now experiencing the health disasters brought on by the combination of smoke and chemicals he/ she is exposed to.
Someone is going to get deservedly wealthy if they can invent a respirator that is not cumbersome to wear. I had invented a few things and drawn them out–but this one will take a guy with some real savvy. And that person will be a certain hero since these chemicals and smokes are definite killers.
Oh, and forget the retardant companies–to invent something like a good respirator with their billions–no way–that would be admitting how their inert claims are a lie.
I do listen
🎶 whistle why I work 🎶
I got the verbiage of my reply using your words silly you…
You keep sharing…and glad you are back from Moab😛
Yes, if you have an old computer time to upgrade. I bought a gaming fast one on Ebay for something like $500 –3.2ghz then for $50 found a small Lenova 3.9ghz and almost new but even a bit faster than the gamer. Simple to plug in a SSD hard drive and if you do that even to your old computer it will seem like a new one it boosts the speed up so much. I got a 1TB for about a hundred and added 32GB memory. This shit just plugs in once you take the cover off and if you add say 8 GB memory with that SSD hard drive you will have a buzz saw since you are hooked up with good internet. I have hot spot only and Verizon is stingy as hell on that giving the slowest download possible that way–so watch movies off it but will likely put dish in instead since I don’t like the interruptions slow does to streaming.
I am using eucalyptus oil for the breathing problem and it seems to help quite a bit. Don’t order Swanson’s since it seems weak and I don’t like plastic containers for water or oil. They do use Benzine making their plastics and you do get it leached into your product despite what they plastic people say. Yeah it is small but small becomes big over time.
Joy–you take your time on that report,. If it were anything great you would have already posted. Too much BS for those thousands people paid–You can bet Eric was in attendance–hope he listened too. I would not expect Donut to be there unless he was one of the instructors. He gets paid for his valuable information. (his opinion, not mine)
Yes, too bad Dr. Ted does not contribute–he has plenty, but maybe Buddha says keep quiet. There is so much that would help the young wild land fire fighter to stay alive. Why I like Gary’s and others posts. They are putting out information that gives new people and even experienced in the wild land fire fighting vital information–some information that is bound to save lives. DND is much appreciated–he has plenty to share and it is going to help many.
Joy you have done much–if you never did another thing you deserve a place among the heroes of wild land fire fighters. The information you have produced is similar to WTKTT and John Daugherty in value. If anyone deserves awards there are all listed as contributors here on Investigative Media. I know there are others out there that ought to join the heroes that post here. Saving lives is the name of the game. What has been allowed in free sharing on IM will do just that.
Gary, try some of that eucalyptus oil–seems to open up the lungs and natural treatment. Maybe I just think so but if thinking so works, good. I hate being limited in my air department. I have been rubbing some on my chest so I wind up smelling it as well but don’t taste the stuff. I believe it will keep mosquitoes off but might attract ladies.
Downhill Direct said,
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-480592
And I say,
Well…given your background I am so much more disappointed in your attitude towards charcoal respirators than I was when I thought you were a Round Hat Bagpipe Blower and I feel so much worse that you would say something like the answer to smoke inhalation issues is for WLF is to rotate out of the smoke…which just isn’t an option based on my experience.
I’m sorry you weren’t able to wear one for more than five minutes and I don’t know how you were able to make it on a hotshot crew for eleven (11) years with your mangina? You must have been with the Prescott Hotshots and you still work on the Prescott so you are up to your neck in the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra (Our Thing)…am I right? I do want you to know however…that you AREN’T being helpful in my “Respirator For Every WLF” campaign. Ahhhh…fuck it. It was doomed to failure anyway, so…fugetaboutit.
I’m sorry you had to make your bones on the Prescott Hotshots brother, but not everybody can be off the Mighty Coconino and at least you didn’t work on the Payson Hotshots…am I right? Did you work for Tony Sciacca, Mark Zumwalt or Tom Tobin? Tony and I used to know each other back in the day, but I bet he’s plenty pissed off at me now…probably just like almost everybody else I used to know and the few guys I still do. Tony and I even ran into each other out at the Fire Center after I retired and was still livin’ in Prescott. I went out there to apply for an AD job workin’ off hours in dispatch, or the warehouse, or whatever. I was hopin’ to get a job driven’ supplies out to fire camps, but since I wake up in a new world almost every morning, I never followed through on it. Were you around when Zumwalt almost cut his head off when that chainsaw kicked back on him…ole scar neck they called him back on the day? Did you work with Bud Shaver by any chance…I used to work for him and we go way back? Anyway…that’s all of the guys I know from the Prescott Hotshots that I can think of right now at least, I bet there’s about zero degrees of separation between you and me and a lot of the same guys…am I right?
You must know my ole buddy Tom Tobin pretty good huh? Tom was like me and went into the dispatch office when he couldn’t make it on the fire line any more. Say…have you ever seen that photo I posted years ago of Tobin and me when we were 19 out at Camp Wood on the now defunct Walnut Creek Ranger Station? Talk about a couple of goof balls, nobody would have ever believed they were lookin at two future hotshot crew bosses, even if I was an accidental one…am I right?
http://ourfiregods.com/CampWood.html
I’m the one in the nice clean U.S. Forest Service uniform that I gave up to be a hotshot FNG, WTF…Over? Tom is the guy I’m leaning on and who is pointing at me. Also shown in the photo from right to left is Darrell Tersey and Tom Lyman. I don’t remember the guy in the cowboy hat. The rest of us were all Prescott High School graduates, by even so, I’m surprised I can remember their names since I can’t remember what I did yesterday.
You do however…prove my point. In the macho curious and confused world of WLF…they wouldn’t even wear hard hats unless those were mandated Personal Protective Equipment (PPE). And if given the choice, most wouldn’t wear other PPE such as gloves, earplugs, goggles, or even fire clothes either. I know for sure most of them wouldn’t carry fire shelters. I was the same way when I was a WLF, long on attitude…short on good sense. Except for the fire shelters, those should all be fed into wood chippers…am I right? But…if God didn’t make people short on good sense…we wouldn’t have any WLF at all when you compare the investment versus return for doing the job.
So…you have convinced me to drop my one-person respirator campaign because you’re right, there are thousands of people who know everything I know and a lot more including those jerk offs up at MEDC and that certainly includes you. Nobody needs me to tell them about the dangers of smoke inhalation anyway…am I right? And even if it was a successful campaign, in the macho curious and confused world of WLF’s everyone would just cuss me out anyway because they would have one more piece of mandatory PPE they don’t want to wear…am I right?
I will say one thing about you though. You are one of the few people I have “met” who has bigger balls than I do because you’re right about one thing…you are writin’ a lot more than I would when I was a 462. Back in those days, I always colored inside the lines and I would be like almost everybody else…silent on the issues except among my own kind. Only we understood us, so nobody’s else’s opinion on WLF matters is needed or welcomed…am I right?
So…email me your address because I have some WLF memorabilia I would like to send you that includes a very rare and collectible challenge coin and some patches. This is a very special offer because the only people (other than a few special people in my life) who have received these coins and patches up until now are Darrell Willis, Ed Hollenshead and each of the families of the dead 19 dead Granite Mountain Hotshots.
[email protected]
Oh…and Sad Sack, I even gave him a set. I bet he was a pretty good hotshot and he didn’t ask for his fate…am I right? I was going to make up a line of WLF merchandise to sell on my website, but since I wake up in a new world so often, well…you know the rest. But…there was a minimum order when I had the prototypes of the challenge coin, patches and even one version of my bumper stickers made. So…I have a bunch I need to get rid of, although I have been promising to send a bunch of them to Joy now for a couple of years for her to distribute to RTS, Sonny and some of the others in her posse. But…I’m getting real close to putin’ hers in the mail any day now and I will mail yours at the same time. 🙄
Anyway…I have taken down my website because I am suspending my one-person respirator and I’m not going to put it back up until I spend some serious time working on it because right now…it’s a real mess. But…just do me one favor…don’t feel sorry for me about my COPD because I still have it better than most people do. There isn’t anywhere I want to hike to anyway…I can Jeep everywhere I want to go. I’m off the reservation and I’m not going back, my X let me go for time served, my 3 children are all raised, are on their own (thank God) and doing well. So…my time and my money are my own and I gettin’ ready to go Jeepin’ in Moab and beyond.
http://ourfiregods.com/
And I’m not going to tell you what the doctors say about my throat and lungs on this thread after I see them, because I can tell you right now what they are going to say. You have Chronic Bronchitis related COPD which is irreversible and there is no cure for it. I have heard it before and the only reason I am going again…is because my Special Lady Friend has made it a condition before she will go out to dinner with me and she has a one track mind on the subject. So…
Back to the top. I hate to make a rule but how about we leave this here so Downhillndirect can give a reply? How about it, Downhillndirect? Why did your very close friend die with his crew? I think you know or at least have an opinion on it and I believe now is the time to let us know.
Reply to Downhillndirect post on August 7, 2019 at 11:56 am
>> Downhillndirect said…
>>
>> Jesse ( Steed ) was a dear friend…
>>
>> Long before he became a Hotshot he and a small group of friends
>> and I navigated our teens and twenties together.
>> That same group of friends all became FF’s and WFF’s.
Glad to see you don’t seem to be having any more technical problems with posting messages.
I’ve been informed you don’t really like answering questions, even though that was what you initially said you came here to do… but since query/response is still pretty much the engine that drives a public forum like this… it’s gonna happen.
So forget the mysterious videos and/or the supposed manual burnouts for a moment.
I believe you also said you wanted to talk about Jesse, and tells us some things we might not be aware of regarding his relationship with GM and/or Eric Marsh?
Do you know what was really going on with the two of them?
How did Jesse really feel about working with PFD / GM and/or Eric Marsh?
Also…
There has always been a report that on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013, Jesse made a cellphone call to a male “friend” and confided to him that “Eric Marsh is going to get us killed”.
Are YOU that “friend” who might have received that phone call?
If not… do you know anything about that?”
”
Let’s hear it.
Reply to Downhillndirect post on August 7, 2019 at 11:56 am
>> Downhillndirect said…
>>
>> Jesse ( Steed ) was a dear friend…
>>
>> Long before he became a Hotshot he and a small group of friends
>> and I navigated our teens and twenties together.
>> That same group of friends all became FF’s and WFF’s.
Glad to see you don’t seem to be having any more technical problems with posting messages.
I’ve been informed you don’t really like answering questions, even though that was what you initially said you came here to do… but since query/response is still pretty much the engine that drives a public forum like this… it’s gonna happen.
So forget the mysterious videos and/or the supposed manual burnouts for a moment.
I believe you also said you wanted to talk about Jesse, and tells us some things we might not be aware of regarding his relationship with GM and/or Eric Marsh?
Do you know what was really going on with the two of them?
How did Jesse really feel about working with PFD / GM and/or Eric Marsh?
Also…
There has always been a report that on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013, Jesse made a cellphone call to a male “friend” and confided to him that “Eric Marsh is going to get us killed”.
Are YOU that “friend” who might have received that phone call?
If not… do you know anything about that?
Good questions WTKTT. DHD is a great person to help get the truth out and so much hinges on his knowledge of what happened that day. We can only appreciate his candor and your questions so important that were never asked by the investigative teams–or if they were had been redacted from public view.
Joy, I know you said you had plenty more to post after the Washington visit. I would like to know more of what the Washington visit entailed. Seems like those people in the thousands were also paying in the thousands to occupy a seat–was it worth the money and did you make it so?
I would not be hesitant in getting the posts out. You had mentioned you live there so you need to be careful of information you have on the Yarnell Death Situation. The thing is you have already been vilified as have most on this web site. But the hatred spewed your way can not be increased by any factor–it will always be there with some that hold on to their tunnel vision and closed minds that refuse to look at other alternative views and facts to back those views up. What I mean to say is any new information you have to reveal will not increase or decrease the disdain some have for your participation. Truth will garner that hatred–but something that will eat more on the haters than you and your truth revelations
SO FIRE THEM TO US!.
I have taken my tumeric and rose hip vitimin C and some ground mesquite beans so I can handle the truth.
This site can come off so crazy at times
but we all are learning –
I know I am all the time.
I feel the site is not tainted due to rants and vents over time like some do….
I take ownership for my words
I know when I am wrong
I know I am flawed
This site as showed me that.
Mistake 1 – lesson learned
Mistake Twice – lesson lost.
We learn from it and we move on from it…
YCSO deputies were dispatched to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial trail near Yarnell regarding a 59-year-old woman suffering from heat stroke.
https://youtu.be/R5DHWfUxquE
Air Lifted From Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial Trail this week-
It was 103 degrees on that event.
On June 30, 2013 the temps were higher with much smoke…
Air lifted Joy? That poor lady–she will get a bill for something like $48,000. That was what had to be paid for my last copter ride from down the hill 9 miles to Prescott–If she went to Phoenix it will be more. Hope she has good insurance or is a war time Vet. And 20% is still $9,600 if they pay that by Blue Shield.
Downhillndirect got me doing some reading. Try not to throw up when you read this link. Dotson, you’re a hack…
https://wildfirelessons.wordpress.com/2018/05/29/underslung-heroes/
…and…….guess who was a member of the module who helped light what turned into the Cerro Grande fire (the $billion one)?
What for it….
Holly Neil
Small world.
I can’t help define the personal motivation of one person to protect the reputations of EM and GM than that. Any questions? Didnt think so.
In response to Dotsons article shaming all of us who want to make observations of the facts and tell the truth about them (despite the overt acts of management preventing us from doing so) in order to prevent future deaths, on May 29, 2018 at 8:27pm, Holly Neill made this comment:
“Underslung Heroes hits very close to home. I currently work with John Maclean on a book about the Yarnell Hill fire, and I think the “bad apple” points between Mr. Gleason and Mr. Marsh are very interesting and relevant to the Yarnell Hill fire discussion.
I was on the BAND Fire Use Module in 2000 and we lit the Cerro Grande fire. For me, one of the greatest gifts to come from this terrible tragedy was the opportunity to work with Paul Gleason. A lasting lesson and strong impression I have carried with me for 18 years is of Paul’s great character and integrity during and after the fire.
It was clear to me that efforts were made to protect his level of involvement, but he would have none of it. He went on to teach and talk to as many fire folks as possible, about his role in Cerro Grande and his level of responsibility and accountability.
Paul was a true fire manager and leader, with special qualities of honesty, transparency and a deep desire to make a difference. It takes a rare courage and wisdom to admit “There is no way to get around how uncomfortable it is to stand accountable for your decisions”, and then go out and actually do it, stand accountable. Mr. Gleason, you are missed.”
after reading all this … my next three posts I have been cracking at since I got back will cover some of this topic …
Holly Neill (May 2018) and John MacLean (July 2019) are on different paths than the Yarnell Hill Eyewitness
and John told me when presenting to him that I want him to help me bridge a sensitive area and he told me that if I thought that – it is a dead end.
He would have been the best person to stitch that area together.
I learned something this Summer …
Woodsman, they are on a different path and John does not like anyone who participates to IM …
It’s been obvious to me for many years that those 2 and a host of others are on a different path.
Reply to Woodsman post on August 7, 2019 at 6:03 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> In response to Dotsons article shaming all of us who want
>> to make observations of the facts and tell the truth about
>> them (despite the overt acts of management preventing
>> us from doing so) in order to prevent future deaths, on
>> May 29, 2018 at 8:27pm, Holly Neill made this comment:
>>
>> “Underslung Heroes hits very close to home. I currently
>> work with John Maclean on a book about the Yarnell Hill
>> fire, and I think the “bad apple” points between Mr. Gleason
>> and Mr. Marsh are very interesting and relevant to the
>> Yarnell Hill fire discussion.
And directly underneath Neill’s comment is the third ( of only 3 comments ) about this yet-another-leap by WFLLC writer Travis Dotson…
————————————————————————-
Robert L. Withrow, B.S. in Forestry
October 31, 2018 at 10:12 pm
I find it difficult to make ANY comparison between ( Eric ) Marsh and Paul ( Gleason ).
From what I have read and heard, Eric ( Marsh ) was USED to working on the edge.
The assistant fire chief for Prescott said that he thinks Eric believed it was worth the risk to go and protect Yarnell rather than stay in the black as he was told. Pauil would never have done that. I worked for Paul and Chuck Hartley in 1966 on the Dalton hot shots. Paul was both crew pusher and lead sawyer and I was his swamper. He was tough, fun, and a student of fire from an early age. On November 1, 1966 we were dispatched to the Loop Fire. We cut line from about noon on and were assigned to cut a sector of line to tie into the county. Paul and Chuck scouted the line and turned down the assignment and said it was too dangerous. You just didn’t turn down assignments in those days. El Cariso took the assignment and the rest was history. Chuck and Paul saved my life. Two years later we were both squad bosses on Dalton. Paul was more focused on safety than anyone I have ever known except perhaps Chuck Hartley. When Paul died we lost a great firefighter and a great man. I lost a great friend. Rest well Paul.
————————————————————————
And just FYI… the Robert ( Bob ) Withrow who left that comment above refuting ANY comparison between Paul Gleason and Eric Marsh is exactly who he says he is.
Someone who knew Paul Gleason VERY well.
Robert ( Bob ) Withrow’s bio goes like this…
He worked on the Baldy District of the Angeles National Forest as a ‘Dalton Hotshot’ from 1966 through 1970.
During that time, Chuck Hartley was the Dalton HS Superintendent and Paul Gleason was first a crewmember, then a squad boss right alongside Bob Withrow.
In 1971, Withrow earned his BS in Forestry from Northern Arizona University.
From 1971 to 1973, he was the Helitack Foreman on the Mount Hood National Forest.
From 1974 to 1975, he worked directly for the National Interagency Fire Center ( NIFC ).
From 1976 to 1977, he was FAI-BLM.
In 1978, he became the first Chief of Wildfire Management ( Forester IV ) for the U.S. Territory of Guam, and remained in that position until 1980.
Etc…
The problem is there really are bad apples and to deny that fact is to deny reality. There are some places in LA you just do not want to walk down the street at any time else you run into a bad apple or maybe even a gang of them. Some of these bad apple types can be found in any place–even law enforcement and fire fighting. If you do not know about the New Orleans situation or the New York situations where law enforcement had to be cleaned up by the FBI then you have been born yesterday. There were murderers and robbers in them just as in the fire fighting business there are arsonists–some that even became murderers by their actions. There are also wild land fire fighters who had been careless with safety and would end up committing mass murder for their willingness to wantonly risk their crews lives. I believe Eric Marsh and likely his foreman would have been charged had they lived. To deny the facts is also to deny changes that would save future lives. How can you be a hero by killing your crew for the reasons they did?
And speaking of bad apples, Pepsi is using aspertane as an artificial sweetener in its soft drinks–something that coke had done for years. Aspertane is one of Monsanto’s money babies. Monsanto was behind the Phos Chek invention starting 1962, they were also behind the PCB’s of the 30,s and it was proven that they knew of all the dangerous diseases that toxin was doing. Monsanto also created the Agent Orange that reduced the population of Viet Nam by millions as well as a host of our American Soldiers that served in that war and were exposed to it. Monsanto is behind the GMO,s and now Roundup that is another cancer causing agent. They use their own scientists to present their product investigations which Federal agents continue to accept despite the fact that Monsanto has repeatedly lied about its chemical products to keep them on the market.
I wondered why Monsanto would give up such a money tree as the Retardant Business is? That is a Global business and with the world wide distribution and increase in wild fires, the Israeli’s have to be making a killing. Perhaps they have some connections still to the business like supping the toxic chemicals involved in the making of Phos Chek.
If you google Monsanto you will get some gut wrenching information about their practices and you will see that the idea that there are no bad apples out there is quite naive.
Just to give you an idea the aspertane that is making Monsanto so much money breaks down as copied from an article about it from the Monsato report:
“Searle’s (subsidiary of Monsanto) real goal though was to have aspartame approved as a soft drink sweetener since exhaustive studies revealed that at temperatures exceeding 85 degrees Fahrenheit, it “breaks down into known toxins Diketopiperazines (DKP), methyl (wood) alcohol, and formaldehyde.”(4), becoming many times deadlier than its powdered form!”
That stuff is foods and soft drinks and it is more addictive than cocaine. I don’t know about you but I do not want anything that breaks down into to three deadly toxins at 85 degree F when body temperature is about 98.1F at its norm. Yet our government food watchers are allowing it. How is that possible? Well Monsanto has hired many of the key ones at exorbitant salaries and puts millions into the lobby system and offers up its own scientific evidence touting that their aspertane is harmless to health.
Don’t believe them because each of those three chemicals created at 85F are extreme poisons even in small amounts. Wood alcohol is known to cause blindness. The formaldehyde is embalming fluid and the DNA is a proven carcinogen.
Known effects of aspartame ingestion are: “mania, rage, violence, blindness, joint-pain, fatigue, weight-gain, chest-pain, coma, insomnia, numbness, depression, tinnitus, weakness, spasms, irritability, nausea, deafness, memory-loss, rashes, dizziness, headaches, seizures, anxiety, palpitations, fainting, cramps, diarrhoea, panic, burning in the mouth. Diseases triggered/mimmicked include diabetes, MS, lupus, epilepsy, Parkinson’s, tumours, miscarriage, infertility, fibromyalgia, infant death, Alzheimer’s… Source : U.S. Food & Drug Administration.(5)
But is that stopping Pepsi and other companies from using it in their products? And is the government FDA doing anything to stop it? Absolutely not and neither will they stop the use of Phos Chek. These people do not mind paying out hundreds of millions when they are making profits in the hundreds of billions. They see that as part of their business costs–minimal at that compared to their profits and to hell with the public health–they are helping the medical profession and reducing the population–maybe that is what they intend to do.
Be aware of how just a small temperature change can produce results of even more toxic chemicals than the originals. And I am not born yesterday Mr. “Don’t be blaming the bad apple person”–there are more than a few in places they ought not to be. Some are even presented as sheep yet are murderers in a high degree.
Correction DKP instead of DNA concerning Aspertane–but you can bet it works on DNA in a bad way.
And a small follow up–Remember the Clyclamates used as sweeteners that were banned finally –“Abbott Laboratories claimed that its own studies were unable to reproduce the 1969 study’s results, and, in 1973, Abbott petitioned the FDA to lift the ban on cyclamate”. That while the proven studies showed rats and monkeys and people infected with cancerous tumors after using it for a few months. They did not give one damn knowing they were getting people sick. So what did coke, pepsi and others do–they sold their products to Mexicans where there was no ban.
This and the Aspertane ordeal goes to show that you best not rely on either the FDA or the Companies dispersing these chemicals to understand what the true effects they will have on your health. WTKTT said it is time we start independent studies of what the Phos Chek and other chemicals are really doing to our health. But what will it take for the general public to understand the magnitude of criminal acts these chemical companies are guilty of. Media seems to be the best answer to educating the masses–are there any other suggestions?
Once again, asleep at the wheel and slackening in remembering a classic wildland fire tragedy yesterday, August 5, 1949.
( https://www.nwcg.gov/committee/6mfs/mann-gulch )
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Gulch_fire )
What are you thinking? What are YOU doing?
I’m thinking that it looks like a wall of fire, and not a bunch of spot fires, coming up at us from the slope below.
I’m about to be in front of the Board of Inquiry and ready to give my testimony, however, I have been told that the District Ranger does not have to face the Board members, that he must testify first, and that none of us are allowed to contradict his testimony.
That sure sounds a lot like the genesis of the “conclusion first and then the ‘facts’ to support the conclusion.” Sixty years ago!
Sonny- this kid plays the guitar like you:
https://youtu.be/9mew997-5lQ
you never disappoint…keep strumming, sir…
because of you, I still take time out of my days to take the time to watch the show we watched when you recovered from being taking off life support….
Smiles.
there is not another Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny)
here is another video insert that reminds me strongly of you playing guitar Sonny
you are a natural genius…
https://youtu.be/JI0DFK7-d40
(mind you can I insert I find you to be a BETTER player with a little help from a friend… :; )
https://youtu.be/YaTUwiHYBI0
Sonny- listening to this kid it brings me back to your cowboy campfires and as the hours progressed and you went to gather another piece of wood and tossed it on the fire and the embers would scatter to the skies lighting the dark with vibrant colors and the moment you grabbed your guitar I would hear the most enchanting moments to my life and this kid reminds me so much how you played that I do not think the world knows how genuinely gifted you are once the sun went down and one sat under the moonlit stars with you – very few got to see those moments – because they wanted to know the GMHS trails that day yet Ered Matthews saw it -because he went back to the area we were crashing as we looked for missing fella Mark Danielson then in the Congress desert. You were like listening to classical and Spanish ancestral tones and your “Green Back Dollar- won’t you come back home…”
Thank you for showing me I could pioneer in a modern world.
I have a lion in the area lately and I feel and smell and see the scat so close that I feel your presence within that … It so reminds me of days gone by…
Sorry for the losses near you – El Paso Texas.
God put us up on the Weavers, Sonny…that is for sure…
Yes I had seen that kid play on the Americas Got Talent show. And I still plunk away on my guitar now and again. My dogs give me a strange eye at times unless I sing a dog song. How much is that doggie in the window? Mine were free from homes that no longer wanted them or could keep them. Those two pups that now weight at least 80 pounds are water dogs–soak in that cow tank and love it.
I miss Charlie and Cowboy–shot by the rancher here–but that is the law in New Mexico. Fact is that these dogs might have gotten out but I had watched them around cattle–the cows did not pay them any attention–but I had not given enough time to train them to stay away from ranchers and cattle areas–and you can understand the rancher view of things. That is his livelihood and anything that might threaten that he is likely to kill. It is kind of like the Yarnell ordeal in a way–no consideration–just kill anything that gets in the way of your livlihood and that is why you saw so many bosses killing the truth of what killed the GMHS crew.
The reason that the authors do not espouse the truth in full is because their livelihood is in writing and they must present what is acceptable to public opinion and what the fire fighting gods have presented that the public believes. To not do so would mean that they would have to face poor public image and likely poor sales as well.
What is really perplexing is how few of the people that know the facts and truths about all the redactions, presentations of half-truths, orders of mum, and threats have continued to keep their mouths shut even after 6 years. Considering that the children have a lifetime of suffering without a father figure, you have to think there are a bunch of cowards out there. That the truth is denied these people, especially loved ones and the fact that this denial will cause future wild land fire fighter deaths makes me state it that way. I could never hold back what I know and saw that day and have a clean conscience.
I know I have said I am in course to train to be a Law and Fire Investigator yet it seems what I said early on here, Diane –
Fire Deep Ecologist seems to be the FUTURE
Fire Deep Ecologist of the Wildfire Reader book that Diane Lomas was reading – what was your take on that, Diane, when you read about that in the book?
What is fire ecology?
Fire ecology is a branch of ecology that focuses on the origins of wildland fire and it’s relationship to the environment that surrounds it, both living and non-living. A wildland fire is defined as any fire that is burning in a natural environment. Fire ecologists recognize that fire is a natural process, and that it often operates as an integral part of the ecosystem in which it occurs.
——————–
So when you think about it that is where with my tools and Enterprise AI “Wtktt” – we would make a solid team “in person’ there –
This Summer I applied to be a mentee and specified in my application “fire ecology” because I think with my tools and training I would fall smack in that area
yet I would need Wtktt organizational skills and why I say we would make a great team – plus you have shown here you ‘succeed in the fact that it does not matter what industry or size – you have shown here the must use data to continue’ to innovate in the unfolding of the YH Fire – ‘your analytics and “machine learning” model deployment/management’- it is unique.
we know John Doughtery owns the site ( I have donated financially in the history of the site and I hope others have as well to keep this alive and running )
and it has been obvious you are a branch off John in recent weeks when a hoax or hack happened and then just say “it’s all gravy” …
I believe you yet I also believe it could have been a possible ploy not yet known…
I am here to protect avatars from public articles and display of full names. Why? Some spent hard work here giving purely
HOWEVER….
– in my next post on my blog I plan to expose one of the avatars of IM not to be a snitch but to show John MacLean that when he stated my participation and my association to IM drew his line with me as a “dead end” – I plan to explain that fully on my next post. I want John MacLean to know some tied to him are an avatar on IM and I will expose them in my next post. There should be no dead ends or lines drawn when trying to get evidence to the front on a tragedy where 19 men died and I gave in person recently some data to John MacLean and it was left with a handshake of “dead end”…
Why not just say you do not like my persona but why use IM as the cop out when people from your own team participated as an avatar here and that was your excuse in our talk.
The Smithsonian in DC offers a lot data … and this video helps explain a little on fire ecologist, Diane : https://youtu.be/K1g8s3hlwDc
However wtktt – if we ever became a team we could not be tied to an agency – it would need to be as an independent…with my human capacities for learning and perceptions and interaction with the locals and firefighters all at a level of complexity and what you are capable of- it supersedes any SAIR or ADOSH – OSHA reports…or C R A P ….we can embed a new beginning of your AI methodology into the very core of me knowing the actual peoples…
you game wtktt to be the new kind of Fire Deep Ecologist?
We can make the Wildfire Reader book pale in what we can do and become…
you agree?
😉
oh and one more thing…name one fire historically where 19 died and 2 external hikers not related to the fires system were out there watching it all…and they lived to talk about it…name any of the prior fires where you met a set of hikers who kept at it to ensure the data is pushed to the front and we do not gain shit from it except bullshit at times…we even took the time out to learn the rhythm and style flows to the Fire Industry…
just saying…
my apologies – the ” ‘ ” above and most of the verbiage was tied to ABOUT page on Dataiku and I failed to insert credit were credit is due-
I want the world to know the young today have this tech way about them I could never have-
yet I can tie in the hands on the ground to the plate where the young seem to not have and that was the “walk away” I had with wtktt yesterday-
I know Gary has the instant “attack” mode on Direct Downhill person yet I really doubt you would -have you got to know him … yet you do this time to time treatment and I have fall under the wrath at times and yet I really think Gary no sabbaticals needed – we all have our own perceptions and lifestyles … I mean we could not do IM without you…
And as we go down the slippery slopes and or the rabbit holes we all have learned each of our realities do no match up … I learned that in the “audience” ( John Mac Lean ) and his take away of IM.
For those who think WTKTT is the owner of this site than I can state you need to do more research and digging because if you look at key words wtktt said over time would not lead you to long time running Arizona Journalist – John E. Dougherty.
If you have paid attention to 2010 than you would know WHO wtkkt is-
he gave so many clues over time-
and from the way back data-
[2010] ‘As one of America’s premier investigative journalists, John has served the public by holding Arizona’s most powerful politicians and government agencies accountable for more than 25 years.
John’s investigations and articles have played a major role in Arizona’s recent political history and directly impacted Senator John McCain, former Arizona Governor Fife Symington, fundamentalist polygamist leader Warren Jeffs and Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio.’
Thank you Mr. Dougherty to you and all around you who has taken this time to “DEDICATE” to this site – it matters!
WHO IS JOHN DOUGHERTY?
‘John’s 1989 story in the Dayton Daily News triggered the Keating Five Senate Ethics Committee hearings that nearly ended Senator McCain’s career.
In the 1990s, John’s series for the Phoenix New Times uncovered Gov. Symington’s use of multiple financial statements to disguise his crumbling development business from lenders.
John’s stories attracted international attention and unleashed widespread public outcry that finally forced law enforcement to take action. Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs is now behind bars.
In the summer of 2004, John revealed that Arpaio had $1 million in secret real estate holdings. John also described Arpaio’s flagrant abuse of power aimed at his opponents and a reported on a systemic pattern of campaign corruption. Arpaio retaliated and convinced former County Attorney Andrew Thomas to launch an ill-advised grand jury probe that abruptly ended following its exposure in the New Times in 2007 and loud public outcry.
The Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office is now the target of a federal grand jury investigation related to possible abuse of power.
John’s freelance stories have appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, High Country News and the Arizona Republic and he’s been a frequent contributor to KJZZ and KAET’s Horizon. John has been named Arizona Journalist of the Year three times and won the prestigious Don Bolles Award for Investigative Reporting on two occasions.
John’s father, Jack, is a U.S. Naval Academy graduate (1954)
(THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE, SIR), and his mother – a homemaker.
John was named to the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism Hall of Fame in 1996.
I am THAT homemaker – I keep my records and have that proof – do a background and it will prove that – For people like his mother I want her to know I will not give up on “us homemakers of the world” as when you place oneself in the spot I have – I get being picked on or all the judgments of what credentials I lack – if it was not for InvestigativeMEDIA participants I would not be currently being trained in the Fire Industry or going to these conferences to LEARN – I have always been quite “comfortable” as the “housewife hiker” helping kids and elders.
The naysayers and people who like to pick on me do not get it but my family and friends do that I am a very solid person (unless I am sick or tired – keep your space arms length away) yet I let you know at all times where you stand with me – I am very upfront.
I am not John Edward Dougherty’s campaign gal yet I want to state we have a FREE place to work through areas ( there is a donate link on this page ) or we read it and shelf it or ignore it but again it takes a lot to keep a site going and when I heard recently that Fire Author John N. MacLean when giving him a snip-it to important details – he turned to me and really had a disgust for my participation to IM so I want the world to know what IM should represent to us is a FREE spot to share and interact and yes it can seem like jumping in a pool with piranhas and YES many here still do not get IM is new to people like Harry and DHD and not there type of world but they took the time to express and the dissing and hissing effects I have seen them being shown is wrong…
In person I rarely call John D….John…I use his initials JED and so in my world he is Jed to me…
Now, with that said I have not given direct in person data to JED like I did MacLean and I did that to see if John N. MacLean would show me if what Charlie Moseley told me years ago and his other friends if it was true if he really wanted the evidence and data and his exact words was “if I thought going to him with it – than I reached a dead end.” My association here on IM ruined that path and yet I disagree.
I have spoken on IM at times my personal emotions what I feel about my hike with John Dougherty and etc and how I did not like the late arrivals and yet I am “housewife hiker” not a business person where time is money so I get JED – I do. I have brothers who I respect their careers and so I get it. One is a high profiled architect and my other runs his restaurants since 1990 so I get it- they have strong work ethics- my world was always my community and the elders and kids but that dos not make me a gal who could not do my best to contribute to get data out on the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire. What I never got to this day was the lamb article and the Dr Ted Putnam article and I have that right-
I ask the world – HOW MANY OF YOU were there Thursday June 3 2010 in the Copper Room at the Hotel Congress, 311 East Congress Street, Tucson? Those people I would like to contact me if you were there.
repeating…
‘Dougherty’s work has also appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, High Country News, Phoenix New Times, the Mesa Tribune, the Phoenix Gazette and the Arizona Republic. He’s been a frequent contributor to KJZZ and KAET Channel 8’s Horizon. John has been named Arizona Journalist of the Year three times and won the prestigious Don Bolles Award for Investigative Reporting on two occasions.’ [tucson weekly]
Anyone who feels any sorted away about John Edward Dougherty-
think about this
MOST papers have editors who have bosses and this man took the initiative to do what most would never do – giving him sorted views yet this is an important site, John Mac Lean – important.
let me close with JED’s own words [Phoenix New Times]”
“This will be a great exercise in the regular folks standing up and saying, ‘Enough of this bullshit,'” Dougherty says. … ‘Dougherty is passionate about almost everything and is well-versed on myriad topics.’
this article shows how dedicated he is –
http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/043010_dougherty/freelance-reporter-john-dougherty-seeks-us-senate-seat/
So please “newbies” coming here weed through all the areas and stick with it
this site does matter –
When the Wildland Fire Academies shut off any further conversations to be had on Yarnell Hill Fire – InvestigativeMEDIA is the only place in the world where one can share and sometimes it does not feel freely when you are quickly questioned or picked apart but once you make it through those moments you “exist” as a contributor here and IT DOES MATTER!
The censorship…the ILLEGAL censorship I have seen is not fair to these people in the Fire Industry. I have proven that in my blog that there is MORE DATA that was shown to me on ERIC SHANE MARSH than the ADOSH so it has to make one question WHO are the past and current SAIT and CRP (CRaP) folks and Subjective Matter Experts (SME) – I challenge that areas and will always …
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-348365
this person gets me and thank you Diane Lomas-
I know it is “frustrating” and I am working on the posts at the same time I got hit hard with travel cruds so I have spent 6 to 8 hours daily since I got back on the 28th and some days minimal time online due to Monsoon thhunder and lightning… but I am working on it. It is a post of three-
oh yeah Diane-
https://worldnutrition.net/vitalzym-xe-2/
https://youtu.be/9ODMuHC8SdQ
that stuff works in a way it reminds me of the YH Fire – pure pains
The pains are not in 1 spot and it is PAINFUL and it is like yeah like the product just not the timing of pains…but it is interesting to learn and you will LEARN internally where problem areas are
I am in activation phase and it is PAIN not discomfort so from perception Sonny and family and friends can share I am a person who can tolerate pain but this really sucks this hour so if anyone runs this product with their doctor – keep this part in mind –
I did pass on a procedure to do this route and hope this is a temporary phase but in testimonies some have done his for 6 to 18 months so that would suck…but if it removes old scar adhesion and such…hope so…
I can tell you I was on a 2-3 times a week regimen with chiro and I began this product for my colon but what I saw within days was complete relief from spine and neck issues and I am on maintenance program and no longer 2-3 times and I have seen improvement in both hernias so it HURTS in colon area indeed but I see it has for sure healed areas the chiro was like you are a chore one week to then “healed” the following week and so giving glory to God because He shared the tools for me to be able to use this item versus procedure. Thank you to a Yarnell physician who is my dear friend to CARE ENOUGH about me and my health to always taking my labs and health and giving me the education and self care tools versus just doing a procedure because another physician says lets do it to rule out this or that – thank you.
Get with your doctor and as if this product will help you…it has helped me. Thank you to IM participant for caring too so I can try this route.
It is expensive but seeing results.
Thanks for the post about John D0ugherty –well done and well taken. Some would not know of his good works that go much beyond even what Joy has posted.
People who are in the business of exposing scoundrels and criminal acts will always suffer much reproach so I am not surprised by those that rave against a forum that works to bring out facts and expose skulduggery. I would be concerned if they did not–they must after all attempt to support their story and one method is to disparage some and to limit free discussion. But eventually there will be a consensus of the truth–an embarrassment to those that continue to deny.
Joy-we dd have many great experiences in our pioneering journey as you termed it. Of course I was brought up with an Irish Dad who lived that life–somehow he got hooked on the prospectors dream of finding that bonanza. There are indeed so many wonders buried beneath our feet and in his case it was the living the dream and the hunt that drove him. I have a small collection of minerals here and am still amazed at the wonders of nature. On my desk right now is a twinned quartz crystal–an Arkansas Diamond–something that made the first radio sets possible, yet it has its value to me just to remind me of my Dad and the adventures I had as a child with him.
If you look at the brilliant rainbows of an Australian or Nevadan Opal, or the brilliant green of an Arizona Fire Agate, or the deep green of a turquoise or malachite, or the purple of an amethyst you realize the creator of these things is one of great variety and color. Nature and the wonderful world of animals, stones and plants is as much music as my Dad’s old banjo was to his part in a small band as they traveled across the great state of Texas to entertain those in Taverns and audiences as they found them. I am fortunate to see these things here on the desert even as the cow bird visits and my bird of paradise blooms in its fullest and my pine trees and small orchard draw them in.
Fire destroys so much of this and we see that the fire fighters have had to intensify their efforts–the fire seasons have greatly increased and fire firefighters have said there is a new era in fire fighting–hotter more intense and more numerous and larger areas of destruction. California is releasing low level offenders to train them as fire fighters–the older experienced fire fighters are spread thin and retiring so that a new generation of fire fighters are involved. I fear there will be more GMHS incidences as I watched the women prisoners being trained on a video by having them practice deployment into those blankets.
California fires are said to be human caused 9 out of 10 times. You could almost say that the Yarnell fire was human caused as well. No immediate effort was made to put it out when it could have easily been accomplished so those men responsible for proper and immediate action showed their irresponsible inaction –they had their share of blame in the destruction of Yarnell. The town was not prepared for a wild fire, yet the men experienced in wild land fires knew the area was a powder keg waiting for a spark.
To have created defensible space about the town and about homes would have been so much less expense than the destruction and the millions spent in useless effort to stop that fire. There was talk of lessons learned, but how can that be when it was such a cover up and facade to keep the face of failure hidden?
Joy, if you do become a fire investigator you will be excellent at that work. Your experiences at Yarnell will amplify your already uncanny ability to investigate and work the truth out. You already know the propensity for people to hide the facts in that business, so it would be difficult to hide the facts from you. But also if the rains have washed away enough of the poisons in Yarnell –if that is possible–then you would set well as the Fire Chief of that town.
There was a certain sadness seeing that video documentary of California wild fires. That of seeing the long experienced wild land fire fighters leaving and being spread so thin. You can imagine the loss of life and destruction –so much depends upon the experience and wisdom that those people have to contribute–so many more Yarnell incidents in the future.
Small world- are you born the same day as Brendan McDonough’s – Declan James?
Happy Bday Gary
let your special lady friend know about this tee too:
https://teespring.com/shop/fate-whispers-to-the-kbmg35?aid=marketplace&tsmac=marketplace&tsmic=search
Just the way you type on here I would never thought you were an August born- seems you are born the same month as me (July) but heck who am I – except the gal who always thought you were 7 foot 4 and learned by other WFs that you are this tiny guy- so who am I…a nobody who knows nothing…I thought you were literally this larger than life man…
I was born in July, on the 31st. 😎
Oh…and thank you.
https://images.app.goo.gl/kbqfxGnZFxH3dYNC7 forgot to add image…
isn’t always about the image?
I plan to talk about IMAGE and IM on my next post because it is serious because I learned a lot in DC….
should have it up by the end of the week God-willing
been taking the ACTIVATION PHASE of vitälzȳm® xe
on pause from the rattlesnake and bushmaster venom…
Thanks for the nice birthday image. And do you mean to tell me that my lifetime of grief because of my attitude is all the result of being born on July 31 instead of August 1? That really sucks. I want to be liked…I really do.
Can you answer this RTS about the Dugger Hughes letter for the newbies-
David Turbyfill says
MAY 31, 2016 AT 6:50 PM
Really??????????? Well hell yes. Why is it so easy for the living to condemn the dead but its not ok to question the living? I am not actual saying “go easy on GMHS” its just that JD did not, in his article show any background research to the claims made by those describing their beefs with Eric. I was trying to reach JD about whether or not he had checked into any of Dave P’s assertions.
Dave P came forward, on his own, he wasn’t asked or sought out, He interjected his Personal Opinion about Eric’s fitness as a Leader by sending the email to Mike D. His email and interview does NOT give any documented facts. That also means that he has not been asked to produce such evidence as yet. Hollies statement shows from here work that at least 2 shot crews objected to a assignment on the HS2 fire. It is only fair to take a look at his complaint, email and fairly access it by all means, which means it will be scrutinized, questioned not just taken at face value.
Quoting JD’s Article “Marsh, Provencio said, had quickly developed a reputation for pushing his crew to outperform other hotshot crews. By 2009, other hotshot crew superintendents began derisively referring to Marsh as “One Up” because of his attitude.”
Did GMHS produce more work when on fires?
Does IC or line command know this?
Is it often that ICs send Shot crews letters of Thanks or Recommendation?
What would IC have to gain?
Is there a competitive spirt amongst Shots crew on the line to the work that’s accomplished?
I do believe that Dave P’s assertions, assessments, thoughts on Eric/Jesse can be relevant to latter Human Factor Assessments
>To the rest here on IM this is partly why Mike Dudley did not want to get into this area of thought during the investigation, it would have only presented a lot of BIAS and a whole other set of investigations. To the rest here on IM, “MIGHT” this is partly why Mike Dudley
You can know that Eric Marsh would want people to know he killed his crew because of his disregard for their lives. He would not want the next fellow to demand a dangerous ascension into hell by ordering them into a steep box canyon that had every reason to be a trap that would kill them. That is if he were any kind of man and I believe he would be one to admit his acts were criminal. Let me tell you had I left Joy there I would have had to admit that I deserved to be another Marsh–instead of taking care for her life went on and been a murderer the rest of my days.
When you have knowledge and wisdom of a thing and allow your own well being or hubris override the safety of those that can not know their own danger then you become responsible for those lives.
It is true I once was crossing a wooden bridge when the Gila River was up from recent storms. I was working for Charlie in those days so was in damn good shape. But I noticed that there were some Mexican Families and out in the river was a young girl about 15 floating down river–she was going to be drowned. Yet none of the men or others there were doing anything by yelling. In those days I sometimes got off my horse and would run cattle out of the dense brush that a horse could not get into. I had run grader stakes and if you know anything about blue tops, the grader man had to have a guy running ahead of that grader uncovering the blue tops so he could see to keep a grade. Those runs were long and that was all day on a trot. So I was fast to run down river ahead of her and jump in and swim out so I could intercept her. I fogot how bad a swimmer I am but somehow I managed to grab that gal and keep her afloat enough until I could fight myself back to the bank in that swift current. It does not make me a hero to have done something like that but had I let that girl drown by not taking action then I would have had to live with that the rest of my life.
I think too many of these bosses think they have to prove something by risking their men. I told you about Bill where I hired out at the Ward Mine some 17 miles south of Ely, Nevada. That tunnel went in about a mile with many branches so we would ride a motor (underground mine train) back in to our working stope and then at quitting time Bill would come back in and we would meet at a place to get a ride back out. Well shit there were 12 x12 timbers stacked nearly side by side and I noticed that they were mushrooming on their tops. I told Bill that is going to be a cave. But he must have known the risk was there and that area was due to cave any time. Still he said no we will put in more timbers and it will hold and he convinced 9 of his crew to continue back in there. I had been there only a couple weeks but had him write my check. You know the rest–they were caught soon after I left but I did not know until about a year later when I stopped back by–Bill and another guy were still air mucking the cave in out–they had nearly gotten caught and barely got out a small ventilation shaft that had some caving itself. Some of these guys just look out for themselves and believe their worth is in taking needless chances with their men’s lives.
When these kids grow up they are going to be damned angry—their Dads were killed carelessly and they have been lied too. But they will know you can bet and then the hero card will be removed from more than a few that were involved in that needless killing. I wonder how it will weigh upon the conscience of the liars–maybe they don’t have one.
But I am not about that. People want to believe a fantasy and that is their prerogative. I am more about the disastrous effects of the retardant poisons. How these big companies have no conscience by hiding behind their corporations and lying scientists and lawyers that back the lies. People are dying from these deadly chemicals yet all they want to admit to is a few fish. Shit there has been hundreds of thousands of fish killed with other aquatic life and that is well documented. It is; also documented that the dead zones of the oceans are directly attributed to the phosphates and ammonium nitrates that the poisonous red algae feeds upon. It is also documented that the phosphates and their radioactive associated elements in them are contaminating fresh water sources and ground waters that people need in their homes.
I have asked Joy to give me names of all the deceased in the Yarnell and nearby areas that were affected by the retardant. There should be only about 35 named deceased but there are many more. I intend to send those names to the media in Phoenix and many of those famous people we hiked with–there were many magazine editors such as the Rolling Stone Editor, the Stein Magazine Editor of Germany, Morgan Lowe of Channel 12 and at least a dozen more– I want to get their opinion as to why we can easily accumulate about 200 names of deceased people after the Yarnell Fire when there should only be 35 in 6 years. I want to add names of people we know that are down ill as well. These toxins and hidden chemicals are to blame in my estimation. I am hoping we can at least get the skull and crossbones on these planes that deliver and the trucks and containers that have this aboard.
People are generally fooled into thinking this slurry is safe and has nothing to do with health problems. These propagandists working in the industries–including their doctors, psychologists, and scientists so willing to file false reports defending the company so they get their paid vacations and fine wines have done a superb job at what they do. That the companies have to spend hundreds of millions to continue their evil work is nothing to them. They are making hundreds of billions from these drops–and they laugh at a puny effort of someone such as Sonny–but not so much if some of the media fellows start getting past their propaganda. At times I wonder if they don’t own the media as well as the politicians that seem to turn a jaundiced eye to the truth of the damage this slurry situation has caused.
Reply to Gary Olson post on August 1, 2019 at 12:34 pm
>> Gary Olson said ( in a Reply to ‘Downhillndirect’ )…
>>
>> Yes…I remember Los Alamos. I’ll let you know what the doctors say after I get
>> all checked out here on this thread. I think there are lots of people out there
>> who have similar problems to the ones I have. I really think they do need to
>> put more thought into protecting WLF lungs and throats, in addition to
>> unnecessary exposure to dangerous chemicals.
Just two weeks ago, California became the first state in the nation to create a regulation which REQUIRES employers to protect their employees from any possible over-exposure to wildland fire smoke.
The new regulation takes effect RIGHT NOW ( as of August 1, 2019 ).
USA TODAY – The Palm Springs Desert Sun
Article Title:
California just became the first state to set safety regulation for workers exposed to wildfire smoke
Published: 4:27 p.m. PT July 18, 2019
By: Gabrielle Paluch, Palm Springs Desert Sun
https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/2019/07/18/california-first-in-us-to-require-wildfire-smoke-n-95-masks-for-outdoor-workers/1768118001/
From the article…
————————————————————————————————–
California’s workplace safety standards board voted Thursday to adopt an emergency regulation requiring employers to provide N95 safety masks to workers who could be exposed to wildfire smoke.
The state’s Occupational Safety and Health Standards Board’s emergency regulation will go into effect in early August and will be in effect for one year. When the Air Quality Index for airborne PM2.5 particulate matter measures higher than 150, or “unhealthy,” and when there is reasonable expectation employees will come into contact with wildfire smoke, employers are required to provide N95 respirator masks to workers.
It is the first regulation of its kind in the United States that specifically aims to address occupational exposure to wildfire smoke, according to the agency. The new rule amends the existing California regulations for respiratory protections in the workplace, which are similar to federal regulations.
Worksafe, California Labor Federation and California Rural Legal Assistance Foundation, worker health and safety advocacy nonprofit groups, filed a petition to the OSHSB asking for the regulation in December 2018.
The regulation adds requirements for employers to monitor air quality at the worksites for their outdoor workers. Employers must also take other measures to reduce exposure, such as allowing people to work from home, if a commute would add more than ONE HOUR of exposure to the unhealthy air.
Doug Parker, the executive director of Worksafe, said he was pleased to hear the board had approved what he called an important emergency standard to address the lack of adequate protections in place for workers exposed to wildfire smoke.
“Based on the experience of the last few years, when hundreds of thousands of workers in California were downwind of wildfire smoke,” Parker said, “it’s especially important that it happened in time to protect workers this wildfire season.”
—————————————————————————————————
And another article with more detail…
The San Francisco Chronicle
Article Title:
New rules to protect workers when wildfires’ smoke fills the air
Published: July 29, 2019 – By Peter Fimrite
https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/Employers-now-required-to-protect-workers-from-14191803.php
From that article…
————————————————————————————————–
Wildfire smoke is PARTICULARLY BAD because it contains a mixture of gases and chemicals, including carbon monoxide, nitrogen, hydrocarbons and other hazardous compounds, according to the supporting documents for the new regulations filed by Cal OSHA.
Inhaling large amounts of these fine particles can cause respiratory problems and asthma, worsen heart and lung diseases, cause eye and skin irritation, and contribute to premature death, according to numerous scientific studies and reports.
Employers will have the option to change workers’ duties and locations to protect them from wildfire smoke or, if that is not possible, distribute approved respirators, like N95 masks, that are designed to filter out the harmful particulates.
The new rules, which will be in place while permanent regulations are developed, require employers to take action when smoke from wildfires reaches 151 or greater on the Air Quality Index, a government monitoring system that measures particles smaller than 2.5 micrometers in diameter. That’s about 1/20th the width of a human hair.
Experts say an average Air Quality Index rating of 22 is like smoking one cigarette a day.
By contrast, the index hovered around 271 for the Bay Area during November’s Camp Fire, when San Francisco experienced the worst air quality in its recorded history.
————————————————————————————————–
Sounds GOOD, right?
Well… what BOTH articles fail to mention is that there is only ONE “named” occupation that remains FULLY EXEMPT from the new wildfire smoke exposure protection regulations.
( Drumroll, please ).
Firefighters fighting wildfires.
You. Just. Can’t. Make. This. Shit. Up.
Followup…
Here is an actual COPY of the EMERGENCY WILDFIRE SMOKE PROTECTION regulation that just went into effect in California…
https://www.dir.ca.gov/oshsb/documents/Protection-from-Wildfire-Smoke-Emergency-apprvdtxt.pdf
From that text of this new regulation…
———————————\———————————————————–
Section 5141.1 – Protection from Wildfire Smoke
Paragraph (a) – Scope
Item (2) The following workplaces and operations are EXEMPT from this section ( and these regulations )…
Firefighters engaged in wildland firefighting.
——————————————————————————————-
Gee…you had me going for awhile. But as always…I really appreciate your skill, attention to detail and commitment to this thread. Thank you for the update. Recognizing you have a problem is the first step after all. 😎
Oh…and one more thing. I just sent my Special Lady Friend the following text message.
“Well, I made a special trip to town today because I thought I might have a birthday card from you waiting in my box. But OMGosh…instead, I found the most manly, macho and masculine t-shirt I have ever seen waiting for me.
“I DANCE WHERE THE DEVIL WALKS” and “I FIGHT WHAT YOU FEAR.” Thanks so much for thinking of me on my Special (Medicare Eligible) 65th Birthday!”
https://teespring.com/shop/IDFirefighter
She does know the difference between WLF and Round Hats because we were dating while I was a hotshot, but as usual, WLF are under recognized and appreciated compared to our structural fireman cousins, 3rd or maybe 4th cousins that is.
Do you know what the first thing I noticed is? Of course you don’t because that’s a rhetorical question. The image of the firefighter is wearing a self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA).
Don’t you think our WLF at least deserve N95 breathing masks, or here’s a bright💡idea…something better with a mandate to wear them whenever possible?
And FYI…it’s always possible to wear a passive respiratory during the periods when the WLF are exposed to the most toxic and health damaging smoke
So…I will ask it again, “Does this look okay to you?”
http://ourfiregods.com/REMFIssues.html
The website program I use is kinda funky and it screws up my text without warning and in odd ways sometimes. So I just noticed I need to go in and fix a problem with my text…but the message remains the same, “Does this look okay to you?”
Whoops 😬
“And FYI…it’s always possible to wear a passive respiratory during the periods when the WLF are exposed to the most toxic and health damaging smoke…DURING MOP UP OPERATIONS!”
Okay…just one more for now. The piece of shit made by the Blind Industries, or low bid fucked up goggles issued by the U.S. Government need to be upgraded to the kind of goggles (unless that’s already been done while I wasn’t looking) I bought myself along with my own $25.00 MSA passive respiratory (with a single filter change at the end of the fire season) that I am shown wearing in these photos you stupid Rear Echelon Mother Fuckers (REMF).
http://ourfiregods.com/REMFIssues.html
You don’t send our troops to fight wearing practical jokes for goggles. Why do you value your wildland firefighters eyes 👀 as being worth so much less?
You people are really and truly fucked up and worthless human beings its been so long since you were on the fire line, or more likely…you never were. Or at least for very long and you never did much or you would care more.
The U.S. military has similar purchasing requirements as you do except they had somebody care enough to sit down and write a simple sole source purchase order justification. I’ve written lots of them, just ask me and I’ll write it for you lazy motherfuckers.
Oh…and one more thing. It’s NOT just the pay, benefits and retirement of the Round Hats in California.
Because of their strong unions and their negotiating power, it’s the Bagpipe Blowers everywhere. That’s the only reason they play at being Hybrid WLF, they make a fuckin’ killin’ with their rules playin’ OUR game.
The only reason any of those GMIHC went to work for a rinky dink municipal fire department hotshot crew experiment instead of a federal crew was in the hopes they could become Round Hat Bagpipe Blowers. And in the process get a decent fuckin’ job where the employees at least have some protection in their standard God given PPE gear provided by the REMF.
That and in the case of Eric Marsh, he had already fucked up too many times to be hired by anyone else again. And then as it turned out in the end, he wasn’t just a Situational Fuckup (SF), Marsh was a Terminal Fuckup (TF) just like EVERYBODY already knew he was.
“The only way decisions made by REMF make any sense, is if you consider people to be statistics and not human beings.”
Everyone is a SF including me 😬, but it takes a very special person like Eric Marsh to be a TF.
Oh…and I’m not just being snarky towards the Prescott Fire Department because it works like this. Every year you spend working under a different retirement system than the one you intend to retire from, is one year of your life wasted beyond getting some initial experience to get where you want to end up.
Working for anyone other than a federal agency is a waste unless you are going to stay with them because all of the things that make the job worthwhile, the amount of leave you accrue, your pay raises, your retirement, and your seniority for everything would stay with the Prescott Fire Department or any of the state forestry departments and once you left them, it would all disappear beyond a small refund check from the retirement system you had been paying into.
Whereas in the federal system, you can go back and forth between all of the federal agencies and everything you have earned and have done follows you. I didn’t end up with 15 years with the USFS and 18 years with the BLM, I ended up with s total time served with the Office of Personnel Management. That’s who has had my file ever since I retired. Neither the USFS nor BLM has had anything to do with me since May of 2006.
There was exactly one career path with the PFD. and that was to become a structural fireman. But in the federal system, there are almost unlimited career opportunities and everything you have earned follows you. I never lost sight of my retirement goals for a single day of my career. I was laser focused and it paid off.
As a practical matter, there are probably only a dozen or so likely career paths, but nothing would be stopping you from earning a degree in Forestry and then becoming a professional forester for example, or even getting out of FIRE period and going to work for FEMA or whoever you want to.
But being a GMIHC, beyond some initial experience, or to become a PFD fireman would have been a dead end loser’s job. That is what Eric Marsh’s problem was since I have figured out he was blackballed on the structural side and he couldn’t go back to any if the federal agencies or a state forestry department. Marsh had ONE career path as far as I can tell, and that was into Darrell Willis’ job.
And that fact played a huge role in his ordering his crew out of the black. Once that crew would have been cut by the City of Prescott and Wild Lands Division eliminated, Marsh would have been in deep trouble where his next move would have been a job where he had to ask, “Do you want fries with that?”
Don’t underestimate how much that ate at his mind and affected his thinking and the choices he made. He was forty something years old, it would eat at anybody’s mind at that age like a malignant cancer.
Unless of course, the PFD’s retirement system in linked with other fire departments within Arizona the way some states have it for various jobs like teachers? Then I guess a former GMIHC. might have a second career path without flushing everything down the toilet?
If that’s the case, I guess you could bounce around between fire departments if you get blackballed by PFD?
Maybe that’s how Downhill Direct knew Steed, is a former hotshot who has a mangina because he and his battalion could only wear a respirator for five minutes whereas I wore one for seven (7) years as a hotshot, and then he ended up with the Sun City Fire Department where his union contract says he gets to go home for dinner every night even when on a FIRE it be breastfed for dinner while rotating out of the smoke?
After participating in this goat ropin’ for six (6) years, nothin’ surprises me anymore.
And the reason I keep saying Downhill Direct must be with the Sun City Fire Department is because I think there were some jerk off Round Hat Bagpipe Blowers fuckin’ around playin’ FIRE BUG with some drip torches they borrowed from PFD at the end of the Shrine Road and those are the guys who think they killed the crew?
But…WTKTT will have to correct me if I’m wrong? I do think I remember there were some jerk off Round Hat Bagpipe Blowers with manginas fuckin’ around somewhere playin’ FIRE BUG with some borrowed drip torches?
wow, wrong on DHD Gary but the rest – those people do need to speak up… there is folks who do owe it …
excellent words above on PFD vs Federal-
nice,
thank you , Gary
A N95 mask or even a charcoal based mask while working arduously could cause hyperventilation, we tried it for about 5 minutes.
Cycling people out of heavy wildland smoke is key if we are able to do so. During structure protection is a whole different beast itself. Mix activity burning structures with vegetation smoke brings intense headaches and nausea. Not two weeks ago I directed an entire type 3 Strike team out of the smoke and into fresh air for 10 minutes.
I caught shit for it but my FF’s are my family and I’ll be damned if I over-expose them for houses that were a loss anyway. The word is spreading about Retardant and the known toxic levels.
Walking through an area freshly treated burns your eyes and is pungent enough to taste the vapor coming off of it. Our Battalion has been directed to always cycle out of heavy smoke and keep out or the Retardant if we can.
I am grateful to all of you that support us by exposing the so called leaders that put their people in harms way. Wildland foam, made by none other than PhosCheck is corrosive enough to give a sunburn like task if it isn’t flushed thoroughly with cold water for 15 minutes. Are the 5 gallon buckets placated, no. Why because they’re sent to our source by pallet load. When we get 10-30 gallons that amount is under the limit to be placarded.
Again, I am grateful to each of you for speaking up. Know it or not we all are.
You are full of shit Downhill Direct. I have laid my experience out in detail…you still haven’t proved shit to anybody on this thread except that you talk the talk, but we are still waiting to see you walk the walk…you stupid fuck.
.I wore the respirator for tears in that photo of me as a hotshot on the Mighty Coconino and the Santa Fe during all mop up operations and many other times for SEVEN YEARS. I specifically said you can’t wear them during arduous physical labor or while hiking up a steep slope, but there are countless times you can wear them and that always includes when you are working on mop unless you were the one WLF in history who mopped up working arduously. And that is when WLF are exposed to the very worst of the containment smoke and particulates.
Have you ever even been on a fire line up in the mountains? Cycled out of the smoke, how the fuck is that ever going to happen? What planet and in what universe did you fight fire in? How far would you have to take the crews and where would there replacements come from? That is without a doubt the stupidest thing anybody has ever written on this thread. Who the fuck do you fight fire for? The Sun City Fire Department?
Gary,
I appreciate your way with words. It was brought to my attention that I am “Full of Shit” and supposedly have a “Mangina”.
From reading your posts from time to time it is obvious you care deeply about WFF safety and how the YHF was dealt with. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are retired, right? I am not retired and I have everything to lose if. I was to give my full name, years spent on a Hotshot crew and what position I currently hold. I’m out of Region now as a STEQ (Strike Team Heavy Equipment) in Oregon watching our fire blow by us in our safety zone. I will say I spent 11 years on a IHC and get paid bi-weekly as a 0462.
Jesse was a dear friend so watch your mouth in regards to how I knew him or your assumptions that I work for a municipality in AZ. Long before he became a Hotshot he and a small group of friends and I navigated our teens and twenties together. That same group of friends all became FF’s and WFF’s.
It’s not my fault that some people get sick with respiratory illnesses from this job. I’m sure I have taken years off of my life. I battle that with PT and diet. So far so good.
As far as heavy/and or smoke in general WE take turns getting fresh air as practical and if safe to do so. We tried the masks and they didn’t work for us. If me not using a respirator means I have a Mangina, then so be it.
I’ve always worn a baseball cap style hard hat and sleep at fire camp. We get a hotel on the way to an out of state roll or on the way home from a roll. I follow the ROE’s and take pride in keeping my people safe for years.
Before you start insulting people who truly care about how the YHF finally plays out, remember there are other people out there besides yourself that have legitimate decorated experience that don’t work for SCFD or PFD.
I asked about Los Alamos because I was there a day after they lit it trying to save homes and property.
Back to work with my Dozers, thanks for the good talk Gary, looking forward to reading your colorful response. Have a great day!
You have got be one worthless Round Hat Bagpipe Blower who has pencil whipped quals!
Now…why don’t you go away again because we aren’t nice to stupid fucks like you on this thread?
Rotate OUT OF THE SMOKE! I can’t believe you wrote something so fuckin’ stupid! The only way U.S. Forest Service Hotshots get rotated off the fire line is by being medevaced! Fuck you AND your battalion.
And I didn’t start wearing that respirator until I was in trouble because I didn’t know bad things can happen from breathing that nasty shit and nobody warned me. It was kind of like locking the barn door after the horse had already been stolen. But it did extend my hotshot years for a total of TEN (10) of them. Which doesn’t impress RTS, but it impresses almost all other WLF. You and your fuckin’ battalion of fuckin worthless Round Hat Mother Fucking Bagpipe Blowers. Fuck me…what has this thread come to? We have some fuckin’ Round Hat Bagpipe Blower telling ME about him and his fuckin battalion!
That’s it…I can’t take being corrected by some fuckin’’ Sun City Fire Department Fuckin’ Round Hat Mother Fucking Bagpipe Blower. I’m going back on sabbatical…I can’t take this kind of abuse. I’m only human. Fuck me silly and call me Sally. A fuckin FIREMAN telling ME, the youngest hotshot crew boss in history at age 23 about fightin’’ fire. Rotate off the fire line out of the smoke? Oh fuck me…why didn’t I ever think of that.. I don’t know? I guess I never thought if it because it isn’t a FUCKIN’ OPTION unless you show up in a big fire truck from Sun City and you can go home so you can be breastfed for dinner. We had a total of 6 guys rotated off the fire line by being medevaced one at a time after two weeks on Kanaka Ridge on the Hog Fire. But that’s the most rotation I ever saw on a fire.
Whoops,
That would be the Hog Fire of 1977 on the Shasta T. Anybody who was on that bitch (non gender specific) knows what I’m talkin’ about!
Oh…and one more thing. If during the FOUR (4) years I was the Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher and Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator (the MF-in-Charge) if any Incident Commander would have called me on the radio and said, “I want to order up some replacement crews because I need to rotate the ones I have now out of the smoke.”
I would have replied, “I’m sorry…but please repeat your last because it sounded like you said, I want to order up some replacement crews because I need to rotate the ones I have now out of the smoke and I KNOW you couldn’t have possibly said something so fuckin’ stupid!”
Thanks DHD–I will take firefighters talking about the fire retardant dangers and effects talking about the effects of foam, Phos Chek, and other retardants killing their crews and leaving the retired ones ill and with long term killer diseases.
People are becoming aware of the many dangers of these chemicals not only on human health but the environment, wild life and ocean life. And it is commendable that you concern for your crew–no amount of residences are worth killing the crew to advance your status as a wild land fire fighter.
Now it is where that money needs to be directed at prevention–there are too many Eric Marsh types running around out there willing to unnecessarily risk their crews to protect residences and the fire fighting community is too often covering up the Marsh incidences to keep face. They rather make Marsh a hero than expose him for what he did–his actions made the system look bad so rather than face the facts, the fire gods opted to play the deception.
Yesterday, July 31st, I was remiss and failed to acknowledge a 2015 wildland fire fatality .
Remembering Dave Ruhl, Black Hills National Forest firefighter, who passed away four years ago while engaging the Frog Fire on the Modoc National Forest outside of Alturas, CA. July 31, 2015
Wildfire Today Narrative Report released for fatality on the Frog Fire (October 9, 2015)
( https://wildfiretoday.com/2015/10/09/report-released-for-fatality-on-the-frog-fire/ )
( https://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/images/incidents/documents/2015-07-31-ca-dave-ruhl-frog-fire-report.pdf )
The Wildland Fire LLC has quite a few of the records for this fire fatality, so GTS the relevant info
A U.S. Forest Service firefighter killed while fighting the Frog Fire, south of the Lava Beds on the Modoc NF near Altura, CA. He was reported missing by his crew Thursday night and his body was recovered Friday morning, July 31. His body was found about 14 hours later approximately one-quarter mile from where he was last seen.
“Situated in northeastern California, the Modoc National Forest is a land of contrasts, with an ecologically diverse landscape ranging from timbered mountains to high desert plateaus. The rugged landscape formed from expansive prehistoric lava flow is marked with areas of rough, broken lava rock ridges surrounded by deep basins. The term ‘lava reef’ was developed locally on the Modoc to describe these volcanic flow structures, commonly 20 to 30 feet in height. Walking over them is deceptively difficult.” … “What an ugly place to have a fire.”
Local fire responders on the Frog Fire referred to this area as “ gasoline alley .”
Composed predominantly of Ponderosa pine, scattered juniper, manzanita, bitter brush, and grasses, “gasoline alley” was primed for fire on the afternoon of July 30, 2015. Scattered clouds with 94° F temperatures and RH at 13 percent. SSW winds at 5 miles per hour, gusting up to 12 miles per hour, were recorded at a nearby RAWS. Live fuel moisture in the bitterbrush, known locally as “ plant-based gasoline ,” was measured at 113 percent, i.e. volatile fuel conditions.
David Ruhl, 38, a Black Hills National Forest Engine Captain was reported missing during the initial attack on the fire in the Modoc National Forest. The cause of death for Ruhl was announced following an autopsy and was attributed to carbon monoxide poisoning and smoke inhalation.
Ruhl went missing the evening of July 30 while engaged in initial attack on the Frog Fire. The Modoc County Sheriff’s Office was called for assistance in searching for them issuing firefighter. Search and rescue personnel started the initial search at approximately 8 p.m. The initial search effort continued until about midnight when it was halted because of hazardous fire conditions. Efforts began again at 6 a.m., July 31 and the victim’s body was discovered at 9:17 a.m.
And of course, many of the usual suspects here from the June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, Wildland Fire LLC “Honor the Fallen”, YH Fire Family Staff Ride, etc. …
One of them did tell me that during interviews, many of these young WFs said they did not care about the historical fires, (e.g. South Canyon, 30-Mile, and Cramer Fires) and that the June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire was their historical fire to focus on
Learning Review Team Members:
Mike Dudley (CRaP Response Lead)
Randy Draeger (Learning Review Team Lead)
Joe Harris – USFS Human Dimensions
Kevin Pfister
Don Boursier
Tony Petrilli – MTDC Fire Shelters
Curtis Heaton
“ If this accident didn’t happen, I wouldn’t have any sense of the danger we were in .” —Firefighter
Are you kidding me? Someone had to die to let this WF know about some unknown “sense of danger”
“The U.S. Forest Service is using a tool known as a Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP) to review and learn from tragic events. It is a tool the Forest Service uses to ensure that we learn everything possible from serious incidents to reduce the chances of recurrence. The CRP includes a Learning Review. The Learning Review (LR) is a phased approach designed to help thoroughly study the accident with the focus on helping prevent future accidents. A Forest Service CRP team has been assigned to the Frog Fire fatality. The team is comprised of staff with technical expertise in specialty areas such as fire management, fire behavior, proper protective equipment and human factors / performance. The CRP process started August 3. When completed the final report will be available to the public.”
Classic Watch Out #4 – Unfamiliar with local factors influencing weather and fire behavior and pretty likely failure to follow LCES even though one of the CRaP members claimed he was. How can one follow and heed to LCES and get killed by fire on a wildlfire?
I hope Coordinated Response Protocol takes a look at the deaths and sickness their slurry drops did at Yarnell so that does not happen again. Yarnell was soaked with hundreds of thousands of gallons of the slurry in around the town. If they check on the death and illness since they will find the results approaching what the slurry toxins do to fish. In only 6 years since the slurry drops almost a third of the population is dead and many are ill or on their death beds.
I know there is ignorance prevalent among the perpetrators. I know this because they totally foamed the house of one of the men connected to fire fighting. Was this a favor? Have they checked on that persons health since? Was it Chuck Tardy? If so he contracted prostate cancer since the fire and announced it publicly at one of the town meeting after the fire. He was also seen with the firemen and doing lots of civic good and had his back yard or very near it a huge red streak of Jumbo Jet load retardant dumped. Would he say retardant has anything to do with his cancer? I have no clue–but in my mind it was because there are so many affected by the toxins and like Chuck these illnesses came on suddenly for the elder people after the fire. I think Chuck is in his 60’s but I am only making a visual judgement.
So maybe we can give some of the CRaP members some food for thought.
Gary Olson says
AUGUST 1, 2019 AT 12:28 PM
,Joy,
Thank you…I’m sorry your program didn’t go as planned. not yet – redoing it all to new areas – I do not give up that easy And if I ever talk my Special Lady Friend into going out to dinner, I appreciate your advice, but my cough and breathing is pretty disgusting, it even bothers me. So I can understand how someone else might not like to listen to it. Sonny and I get THAT cough,…THAT breathing and its noises, etc…and again it should be another’s honor no matter how you “sound” to eat dinner and enjoy old times and new times with you as she has to see that…I think if someone I knew from college wanted to dine with me – say NY journalist gal Kaja Whitehouse from my college phase and she said let’s go eat and hang out…I would hope she would not be so shallow and think oh Joy looks nothing like her college days or even SOUNDS like she did – we are made to be WHO WE ARE and in it LIVE and TOUCH LIVES
So…people are just going to have to make a choice…no slurry and bigger fires, or use slurry and accept the health risks. I disagree- I do think there is a better formula than both those suggestions… Something I do not shoot from the hip quite yet but I will say this I disagree there
You and I understand by now that life is a series of choices, trade-offs and compromises. Which is a real BUMMER! as well as there is a choice to do the right thing
Okay, good advice, I will run that by my Special Lady Friend and see if that dog can hunt.
And I don’t know nuthin’ about birtin’ no babies (e.g., slurry)! I am NOT trying to get between Sonny and his favorite bone (chemicals that are killin’ people) to chew on.
I was simply trying to be helpful by suggesting what someone would say in defense of slurry if someone else spoke up. I already said what I thought they should do. Eliminate all slurry and hire more hotshots, Keep them all on year round and make entry level, GS-5, journeyman GS-6, Sr. Crewmen GS-7, Squad Bosses GS-9, Crew Bosses (Superintendent) GS-11.
Since I am a hammer…every problem looks like a nail to me.
I am NOT A BIG FAN (to quote President Trump) of slurry…or slurry bombers ever since the Valdez Fire when that one caught me with my pants down down around my ankles.
Clarification.
The Valdez Fire was burning initially on a VERY steep slope with lots of heavy down fuel such as old logs and slash. But I failed to mention what made it so dangerous. The entire hillside was covered with intermittent patches of very thick dog hair smaller trees that provided perfect “ladders” for that very hot fire with wind pushing it on that very steep slope to keep climbing up into the tops of the big trees and crowning out.
And I have been thinking about why that bomber didn’t drop his load on the fire someplace rather than just jettisoning it in that green valley with me as his center mark. And I think it was because there wasn’t any Air Attack and by the time he dropped that last load, the entire fire was crawling with WLF of every kind (because it didn’t get very far after it topped out) and I don’t think he wanted to risk dropping on the fire with so many people on it so he just dumped it on me.
This is getting down into the weeds, but that green valley (which stretched out to the north further than I could see) would have made the north side secure, and the way the road was initially on the south side and then snaked around down some switchbacks to the valley below, it would have made the south and west sides secure, if we could just have punched in that line on the east side.
But…hotshots working on a very steep slope above a hot fire burning in heavy dry explosive fuel being driven by strong gusting winds. Does that remind anybody of every hotshot disaster fire in history?
Oh..and one more thing. I never could “run” in my size 15 Whites with 12 inch tops because they weighed about 10 pounds each.. The best I could do was chug up that steep slope. That was why I needed a head start on that FNG hippie dude who kept tryin’ to rabbit on me. 😎
And I’m not just pulling those GS grades out of thin air. The complexity of fighting the wildfires of today with extensive wild land urban interface while working with a myriad of other local, state and federal agencies, in addition to the increased tempo with the demands of a virtually never ending fire season placed on the hotshot crews of today far exceeds what was expected from hotshots in my day. I bet I could write those new PD’s to pass a personnel audit.
And that’s the key word for personal audits…”complexity.” It doesn’t matter how hard you work…the only thing that matters for an upgrade is the complexity of that work. I wrote the new Position Descriptions for the agents who worked for me in Arizona and all of them got upgraded to 12’s.
For example, my last year as a hotshot was 1984 and only the National Park Service had a hotshot crew other than the USFS. And I never once worked with a Round Hat…never. Various State Forestry Departments…yes, but that was it. And that was as late as 1988 because I was still in wildfire operations management and it was still the same as it was when I left the line in 1984. It is a completely new world today, Scary.
Plus…OMGosh, have you seen what those non federal WLF’s…Round Hat types name in California? It’s like they can print their own money! Increased grades are needed for RETENTION since that is where the fires are for the future! And their retirement…OMDoubleGosh!
By golly, if I were a young man starting over…
Whoops 😬
Plus…OMGosh, have you seen what those non federal WLF’s…Round Hat types MAKE in California?
Plus their BENEFITS! OMTripleGosh!
And yes…I know it’s expensive to live there, but not after you retire and move to Arizona.
Reply to Charlie post on July 30, 2019 at 3:32 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> What I have found with the toxic studies they are usually
>> done by the companies involved or else funded by such
>> with their pet scientists, etc.
>>
>> ( snip )
>>
>> I am always suspicious when companies do their own
>> investigations. We saw that at Yarnell to the greatest
>> of degrees. How well they manipulated their public story
>> and how hard it has been to get the real story out.
>> The public trusts them and once they make up a story,
>> the public is quick to accept.
>>
>> We need that to change to independent investigators.
Yes. It is WAAAY past time for that to happen.
Also… regarding ‘toxic studies’…
The Wine Industry is getting more pissed off every month about the ‘secrecy’ involved with Phos-Check retardant products.
Cal-Fire officials keep telling them how ‘safe’ it is… but they are also being advised to NEVER harvest any grapes that have come into contact with Phos-Check because of all the ‘mystery shit’ that is in it.
They are losing MILLIONS of dollars yearly because of all the ‘secrecy’ and the lack of studies.
What the California Wine Industry should do is SUE the manufacturer for full disclosure.
And make no mistake… the California Wine Industry is a POWERFUL lobbyiing organization with some real CLOUT. They could “get it done” if they wanted to.
Wine Industry Insight
Article Title:
Phos-Chek: Deadly to salmon, cautions for wine grapes,
sketchy data on human effects, confusion among public officials
Published: October 24, 2017 by Lewis Perdue
http://wineindustryinsight.com/?p=86299
From that article…
————————————————————————————————–
The sketchy and fragmented data available about the uncertain safety of fire retardant on wine grapes indicates that — even if safe — those should NOT be harvested or made into wine because of regulatory issues over unauthorized substances that might be detected in the finished products.
According to the warm and fuzzy (and unconfirmed) anecdotes about Phos-Chek, the bright-red, air-dropped chemical is so safe that firefighting instructors have supposedly been known to eat it on corn chips to show new recruits just how harmless it can be.
But the plural of anecdote does not equal data. And when it comes to Phos-Chek, reliable data is sadly lacking.
There is no question that the fire retardant has played a vital role in saving lives and property in the wine country wildfires. However, the lack of reliable and complete data about it has complicated the lives of farmers impacted by the Wine Country wildfires.
No studies have been done in humans.
No published, peer-reviewed studies have been done on laboratory animals.
The main source of information is a document produced by the manufacturer.
—————————————————————————————————-
Thanks WTKTT–I did not know that the retardant was so dangerous that grapes cannot be consumed or used in the wine industry if sprayed with orange toxin retardant.
There is a lot more to this story –too much illness and death after these retardant drops and the fact that fire fighters die with heart disease statistics and other diseases way off the chart. It is obvious these retardant giants will continue to hold on to their secrets as long as possible.
About the only way to get to the truth is if main stream media starts talking. That was how the thalidomide ordeal was broken up–otherwise that would have continued for decades more.
“As Firehouse Sees It: It’s No Longer a Wildland Season
“Firehouse Editor-in-Chief Peter Matthews explains that the explosive number of wildfires has put an end to the traditional wildfire season.” by Peter Matthews – July 1, 2019
( https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/wildland/article/21084743/as-firehouse-sees-it-its-no-longer-a-wildland-season?utm_source=FH+Newsday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS190725009&o_eid=5668G1183545G6J&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C5668G1183545G6J&oly_enc_id=5668G1183545G6J )
“In December, during a meeting held by the Congressional Fire Services Institute in Washington, D.C., Dr. Shawna Legarza, director of Fire and Aviation for the U.S. Forest Service said her agency is working with the reality that the wildland season is long gone because it is a year-round problem. And it’s not just in the Western United States, it’s all over the country.”
Let’s pause to remember some of the deadliest wildfires for firefighters during the traditional wildland season.
“On June 30, 2013, 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed in Yarnell, AZ. The Rattlesnake Fire that burned through the Mendocino National Forest in Willows, CA, claimed the lives of 15 firefighters on July 6, 1953. Fifteen firefighters were killed on Aug. 21, 1937, as they worked the Blackwater Forest Fire in the Shoshone National Forest in Wyoming. The Devil’s Broom Wildland Fire near St. Joe Valley, ID, killed 78 firefighters on Aug. 20, 1910.
“Turn to page 46 to learn more about the South Canyon Fire that claimed the lives of 14 firefighters in Colorado 25 years ago on July 6, 1994. And, next month marks the 70th anniversary of the Mann Gulch Fire that claimed the lives of 13 firefighters and smokejumpers on Aug. 5, 1949, in the Helena National Forest in Montana.”
Reply to Charlie post on July 28, 2019 at 11:21 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> WTKTT, and others concerned: I am working on the retardant issue
>> with an Australian scientist that wants to know the exact name of
>> retardants that were used at Yarnell.
There is no EXACT list that I know of, in the public record, but you can be almost 100 percent certain they were Phos-Check products.
The Prescott National Forest Aviation Center, where most of the “load and returns” were happening during the entire 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, has a specific CONTRACT with the Phos-Check company.
And not just for the retardants, either.
Actual Phos-Check employees are the ones who do the reloading at the Prescott Aviation/Fire Center.
Here’s a Prescott Daily Courier Article that confirms that…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Pit stops to the sky: Crews at Prescott center move quickly so planes can return to firefighting
https://web.archive.org/web/20190729153250/https://www.dcourier.com/news/2019/jul/27/pit-stops-sky-crews-move-quickly-so-planes-can-ret/
———————————————————————————————
Kurt Estorez works at the Prescott Fire Center as an assistant manager for Phos-Chek, a manufacturer of long-term fire retardant, Class A foam and water enhancing gel.
The Prescott National Forest (PNF) contracts with Phos-Chek so it can use the company’s employees and fire retardant during wildland, industrial and municipal fires in the area.
Similar to NASCAR pit crews, Phos-Check Air Attack teams like the one Estorez helps manage are constantly striving to improve the time it takes them to fill aircraft with retardant. As soon as an aircraft parks in one of the fire center’s pits, the team runs out with its equipment.
————————————————————————————————–
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> He also asked if chlorine or bromine were present and if they
>> were halogenated. If you or anyone can answer any of these
>> question, I would appreciate having them. You can post or reach
>> me at sonny95@proton mail.com or 575-202-5928. Your reply or
>> post will be appreciated.
Again… there is no specific information about that ( that I know of ) in the current public evidence record for the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire… but since BOTH chlorine and bromine are common chemicals used in industrial fire retardants, you can bet those might be part of the ‘secret ingredients’ that the Phos-Check company refuses to disclose.
Followup…
The following is a comprehensive research paper published in 2004 about the effects of Wildland Fire Retardants on the environment, animals, and people.
And YES… despite what US Forestry thinks… there IS a lethal dose level for humans when it comes to Phos-Check and other WF retardant mixtures.
According to the paper… it’s the ‘anti-corrosion’ chemicals that are added to keep the shit from chewing up the airplanes and the pumping equipment that is the really NASTY stuff… but the ammonia and cyanide by-products issues don’t help, either.
This is a VERY high-level academic paper with all kinds of ‘formulas’ and whatnot… but it is VERY well done, summarizes all the other research that has ( and has NOT been done ), and the ‘References’ section alone is a treasure-trove of research on the topic.
There really has NEVER been an adequate study done regarding the long-term effects of wildland fire retardants on humans.
Long-term forest fire retardants: A review of quality, effectiveness, application and environmental considerations
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228836272_Long-term_forest_fire_retardants_A_review_of_quality_effectiveness_application_and_environmental_considerations
From that Research Paper…
———————————————————————————————
Environmental impact of fire retardants
Fire retardant delivery into the environment could have toxicity effects on organisms.
Initially it was thought that fire retardants would have no adverse effect on the environment, as their main active ingredients are agricultural fertilizers; however, even materials of inherent low toxicity can cause adverse environmental effects when the rate or intensity of use is sufficiently great (Norris et al. 1978).
The toxicity studies have been classified by: (a) the effect on water quality and consequently on aquatic organisms; (b) toxicity effects on vegetation; and (c) toxicity effects on humans. There are three works that review the various studies of the impact of fire retardant use on people and ecosystems, by Labat Anderson Inc. (1994), Adams and Simmons (1999) and Kalabokidis (2000). Kalabokidis’ work has many refer- ences to studies on the effects of fire retardants on people, whereas the work of Adams and Simmons (1999) presents a review of the environmental impact of long-term fire retar- dants and foams, with less emphasis on their effects on people. Labat Anderson Inc. (1994) deals with the ecological and human risks of the use of fire retardants.
For each long-term fire retardant mixture, the suppliers publish the safety information in relation to its use (MSDS, Material Safety Data Sheet); primarily human health hazards and environmental regulation data are specified along with toxicity tests, chemical and physical properties of the fire retardant, storage and handling conditions and reactivity. Generally, environmental impact on surface fresh water caused by retardant delivery is the topic that has been studied in most detail, whereas fewer studies have been conducted to determine the effects on vegetation and the reduction of species diversity caused by added nitrogen and phosphorus in soils (Adams and Simmons 1999; Larson et al. 1999)
Toxicity effects on water and aquatic organisms
Evidence shows that the main impact that fire suppression chemicals have on the environment may be through adverse effects on water quality and subsequently on freshwater fish and other stream biota (Kalabokidis 2000).
As mentioned above, ammonium salts are one of the toxic components of some long-term fire retardants for aquatic organisms when it is dissociated by water to ammonia.
The results of the toxicity tests showed that fire retardants applied directly into streams require great dilution to be non-lethal for aquatic organisms; for example, a dilution in the range of 100–1750 times was necessary to approach a safe concentration for rainbow trout (Gaikowski et al. 1996). It is essential, therefore, to avoid aerial retardant delivery near streams.
Further work was carried out (Little and Calfee 2002a) on the main toxic components of certain retardant products (total ammonia, un-ionized ammonia, nitrate and nitrite and sodium ferrocyanide).
As discussed above, corrosion inhibitors are considered toxic substances; the toxicity test conducted on animals (rats) has determined the lethal dose of fire retardant mixtures. For a fire retardant mixture that contains sodium dichromate as a corrosion inhibitor, the lethal dose considered is 3 L of retardant mixture for a man weighing 90 kg (USA Department of Health, Education and Welfare Toxic Substance List).
——————————————————————————————-
What I have found with the toxic studies they are usually done by the companies involved or else funded by such with their pet scientists, etc. For instance the pharma companies usually do their own testing and present it what they have to the proper government agencies to get approval to sell their drug.
The English makers of Thalidomide for ten years continued to disperse the drug despite the many complaints that people believed it was causing people to be born with only a trunk. Even the government was backing them for the longest until about 100,000 babies had been born with horrible deformities to live with the rest of their lives.
I am always suspicious when companies do their own investigations. We saw that at Yarnell to the greatest of degrees. How well they manipulated their public story and how hard it has been to get the real story out. The public trusts them and once they make up a story, the public is quick to accept.
We need that to change to independent investigators.
Obviouslywhat WTKTT has posted is very important to health issues and staying alive. Anytime a half gallon of something will put you in boot hill you had better know that substance is dangerous in any amount. The idea that this toxin is spread in out environment and near our residence is about as criminal as you can get. Now we understand why Yarnell has had so many deaths and illnesses after the 2013 and later Tenderfoot wild fires. The amounts dumped and surrounding Yarnell and even on residents I have not officially verified but believe to be approximating 500,000 pounds. Somewhere then in the neighborhood of 250 tons. If that is true then it will be a wonder if half the population of 650 survives the next ten years. That retardant toxin is deadly.
Something with Fire Retardant Slurry that needs to be stressed is that these retardants once applied to heat they change to different toxins–many more toxic than the original slurry. That gets into the smoke and the air and dust makeup encountered in the environment after the fire
Joy and I began hiking immediately after the fire since we wanted to see the sites and what had happened, even following the complete route we had hiked and followed the route the 19 hotshots had taken as well. Those early hikes had us covering our faces with rags that were turning black. And of course it was soon we were hiking people almost daily to the area. I do not know if she has photos of us early on but our clothes and faces were covered with the contaminated soot of that area. Even later photos of hikes we made –one with the author Fernanda show me with the soot on my face and clothes–that was weeks after the fire.
So you can imagine what the wild land fire fighter goes through since he is in there right after the fire cleaning up and quenching small burns, Well you see them all sooted up. And as Gary mentions they continued to wear their contaminate clothes for days-maybe even weeks during the fie work.
It is similar to mining where say in Uranium mining we left our diggers, showered–you would have 300 men in a huge shower can you imagine–then your locker to keep your diggers and street clothes. The next day and for the time you were there you seldom washed your diggers if ever–but would continue to use them dirty since they remained in your locker for the next shift. We should have had a change every day but that was not a thing imagined to do. Like the wild land fire fighter we were wearing contaminated clothing throughout the day that should have been replaced with clean clothing on a shift basis.
There is no secret that the wild land fire fighter and fire fighters in general will later in life suffer so many ill effects–and these are multiple starting with lung issues. Gary is correct in warning the young fire fighter to use his respirator. However, I feel that is probably a thing that will continue to be skirted. What needs to be done is a restriction on fire retardants in areas they work since many of these chemicals are absorbed right through the skin. Up to 60% of solutions applied to the skin are absorbed into the internal areas of the body.
Women and now men who apply make up ought to see what chemicals they are absorbing. Many of the clays in make up and the massive amounts of clays in the slurry concoctions contain asbestos. The retardant companies will not test the clays for this you can bet. There are also tritymites and crystobllites –tiny silica crystals that add to the lung problems and develope into problems such as silicosis. But you can know they add to COPD and situations concerning lungs. Likely part of my own cystic fibrosis and early COPD.
We are the guinea pigs who did not know we were in later life to be such. The whole town of Yarnell is populated with people in the class–unknowing guinea pigs but I bet a few resent my saying so. Life is not fair, sometimes you become something you did not mean to be. So some are not only cookie cutters and cowboys but also now guinea pigs. A guinea pig so defined is an experimental animal–not necessarily just a guinea pig in the conventional way of thought.
(I resent being one myself and detest the fact that so many I knew are now either dead or terribly ill.)
In the Yarnell case it is incidental and was not a free choice–but looking at the statistics there a now many sick and dead people.
Also…
KQED Science
Fire Retardant Use Explodes as Worries About Water, Wildlife Grow
Published: Nov 27, 2017 by Matt Weiser
https://www.kqed.org/science/1917995/fire-retardant-use-explodes-as-worries-about-water-wildlife-grow
From that article…
——————————————————————————————-
Chemical fire retardants are considered a vital wildland firefighting tool, helping to slow the spread of flames while ground crews move into position. But as their use increases, the harmful side effects of these chemicals are coming under increasing scrutiny.
The chemicals, usually dropped from low-flying aircraft, largely consist of ammonia compounds, which are known toxins to fish and other aquatic life. Studies have shown retardants can kill fish, alter soil chemistry, feed harmful algae blooms and even encourage the spread of invasive plants. Yet there is little regulation of their use, and no safer alternatives on the market.
In California, state firefighting crews have applied 15.3 million gallons of chemical fire retardants so far this year, according to data provided by CalFire, the state’s wildland firefighting agency. That’s a new record, and double the amount used just three years ago.
The growth of retardant use in California has outpaced federal firefighting: In 2016, the United States Forest Service applied 19 million gallons of retardant on all National Forest system lands in the nation, an increase of 55 percent compared to three years earlier.
Timothy Ingalsbee, executive director of Firefighters United for Safety, Ethics and Ecology, said chemical fire retardants are overused. They are intended only to slow a fire down so that ground crews have time to reach a fire front and build containment lines. Instead, retardants are being used in place of ground crews, he said.
“It looks good on TV – ‘CNN Drops’ is a term firefighters use,” Ingalsbee said. “Eventually, the fire burns through that stuff and keeps on trucking.
In 2014, scientists at the National Marine Fisheries Service published a study showing that two fire-retardant formulations are deadly to Chinook salmon, even when heavily diluted in streams.
The chemicals killed salmon at concentrations well below 1 percent of the strength at which the retardants are applied. And the study found the chemicals had lasting effects: Even salmon that survived initially could be killed weeks later when they migrated to salt water, apparently because the chemicals damaged their gills.
The retardants evaluated in the study, known by the trade names 259-F and LC-95A, are made by Phos-Chek, the U.S. subsidiary of an Israel-based company called ICL Performance Products. Both retardants are still in use by both the Forest Service and CalFire.
The primary ingredient in retardants is an ammonium phosphate or sulfate solution – essentially a type of fertilizer. Other ingredients are exempt from public disclosure under federal law as trade secrets. But one is a gelling agent that allows the ammonia solution to cling to plants, temporarily insulating them from heat and flame to deprive an advancing fire of fuel.
Dietrich said it’s likely that MVP-F will also be deadly to salmon. The concentration known to be toxic to fish, as reported by the manufacturer, is still less than 1 percent of the concentration at which the retardant is released by aircraft. This means, again, that it can be heavily diluted in the environment and still remain deadly to fish.
The unknown proprietary ingredients in retardants may play a role in this, he said.
“They’re definitely enhancing toxicity,” Dietrich said.
“Whether they are working with ammonia or just causing separate effects that are accumulating, I couldn’t say. There is some other source of toxicity that comes into play.”
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Very good post by WTKTT. Are these firefighters and the men involved in spreading chemicals reading the facts? I hope so and I hope the politicos and people with influence start understanding the need to curb this toxic dumping especially near human habitation.
If CNN would start telling the truth about these red and orange slurry photos people would begin to gasp at seeing them. They would see them more in the likes of the Agent Orange that sickened the Vietnam soldiers. You see how long it took for the government to recognize how terrible the Agent Orange was to the soldier.
The retardant that can be shown to be more devastating on health than Agent Orange will have the same problem of being shown for what it is. Yet the people that are main stream media need to be getting the true information out and not the glory lies put out by the retardant companies making the huge profits and caring less about what they do to the health of people, the environment, aquatic life, especially fish, and the terrible miles of red algae that have become ocean dead zones.
May the dead of Yarnell bear upon the media people to do their jobs–expose the truth hidden like the secret and toxic chemicals dumped in the thousands of tons on our planet.
Sonny,
I have never given my opinion regarding slurry here on this thread, but now I am about to do so…drum roll please. I think slurry is a huge waste of money and it’s extensive use has more to do with the influence their industry has on politicians in Washington D.C. through their lobbyists and campaign contributions than a net gain in any legitimate cost to benefit ratio study. I developed that opinion very early in my 10 years as a hotshot and my conviction that I was right only grew over time as I witnessed more and more and more waste.
I was probably dropped on more than two dozen times over my 10 years and I worked in close proximity to massive amounts of dropped slurry many more times than that where the slurry was burned through by the fire and then I was subjected to the toxic chemicals that then would have been carried by the smoke.
I can also tell you that in the macho curious world of wildland firefighters during my time, there was never any talk, considerations or concern given to the fact that the chemicals in retardant were toxic and posed a danger to WLF to the point that I witnessed some firefighters who allowed themselves to be bathed in slurry because when they went back to fire camp, it was worn as a mark of manliness because if you were wearing slurry, that meant you had been where the action was.
I never did that because I don’t remember ever changing fire clothes while on a fire because the dirtier and more sweat stained your shirt and pants were, it usually meant the harder you had worked. Few things drew more scorn and ridicule in the WLF world more than clean fire clothes. Anyway, I never deliberately let myself get nailed by slurry because that meant you would be wearing it until you got home and after it dried out, it would cause chaffing around your neck and shirt cuffs, or wherever your skin came in contact with the edges of your clothing. Plus…it smelled like cow manure.
So…I can tell you one thing for sure to add to the list of things THEY should be keeping track of that we have revealed here on this thread unless things have drastically changed in the closed world of FIRE in my absence. THEY need to add training on the chemicals in retardant and the dangers those chemicals pose to WLF and why.
You may think that would be self evident, but I can assure you that it is not. In fact…that thought never even occurred to me until my participation here on this thread and reading what you wrote. In fact, if you remember I argued against you for a few years writing that if you were right, the slurry would be killing me now because I had been exposed to so much of it. And then one day it occurred to me and I said to myself, “Hey…stupid fuck, why are you arguing that slurry isn’t dangerous to people, you’re not a chemical scientist or environmental hazard specialist and how do you know, that very well may what is killing you!”
In fact, I hated getting nailed by slurry so much, it didn’t take me long to figure out that THEY don’t know what the fuck THEY are talking about when THEY tell you to prone out on the ground facing the drop so your hard hat will help protect you. I learned to step behind the biggest tree around me and hug the trunk. Now…there are probably good reasons why THEY don’t want an entire 20 person crew all running around looking for the biggest tree to hide behind, but hey, that’s THEIR problem because it worked for me. And of course that doesn’t work if their aren’t any. trees, but that very rarely happened.
WLF should also be trained to change out their fire clothes after being nailed by slurry because what most of them are doing now, (unless things have changed) is they are continuing to wear the same clothes because once again, clean fire clothes are a sign someone is a camp slug, a worthless overhead, is not on a hotshot crew, or has a mangina.
And once again, you would think that should be obvious, but we are talking mostly about hotshots here…so enough said. And that is because by wearing the same fire clothes for days or even weeks after being doused with slurry, they are continuing to breathe in dried particles of retardant from their clothing and line gear.
Now…as I have repeatedly stated, my view of the FIRE, was always from the standpoint of a grunt and ground pounder seeing the effects of slurry up close and personal and I can tell you without equivocation, I never once said or even thought to myself, “Thank God that air tanker showed up when he did and made that drop because it really saved the day or even bought us a reprieve.”
That never happened. Now I remember thinking often, “Well…that was a huge waste of money but they bitch (non gender specific) about us claiming a break in our time even though we never got one, but they drop that worthless, expensive shit all over the place at the wrong time, in the wrong place and in the wrong way, e.g., way to fuckin’ high and so it was too dispersed to do any good once it hit the ground. Now…I will freely admit my view was clearly myopic as a grunt and a ground pounder and I never saw the “Big Picture”, so I might have it all wrong. Air Attack and overheard may see it differently?
True Story Time
As I have written before, the only fire I know of where I could have killed some of my crew was on the Valdez Fire on the Pecos RD on the Santa Fe Anyway…after things settled down I wandered way out into the middle of a huge green valley that was the anchor point for the fire. I went out there to gather my thoughts, think about what had just happened and rearrange my line gear.
This was always a ritual for me that was fairly complex because I had to take off my hard hat, my bandannas, my radio (or radios) my line pack, my web gear, and take down my pants so I could tuck my shirt back it, dry out the sweat for a few minutes and then start to reverses the process to put myself back together.
Anyway…as a was standing in this huge green valley all by myself (the crew and everyone else was on the fire about 100 yards away) with my pants down…a huge bomber suddenly appeared from over the tree line…zeroed in on me and dropped his entire load of slurry right on top of me.
That pilot must have thought that was very funny. Those old bombers couldn’t land with their heavy loads of slurry if they weren’t dropped on the fire and so they would just find someplace to jettison them before returning to their bases.
And of course there wasn’t any big tree to step behind and I would have had a hard time hobbling to it anyway with my pants down. The crew thought it was pretty funny too and one of my squad bosses came to my LE retirement party and even told that story, which I had largely forgotten about until he reminded me.
Anyway…I will it say once again (because I have written this before) I think that perhaps the biggest flaw and misconception that came out of the movie and the in aftermath the Yarnell Hill Fire, was the suggestion or possibility that a drop from an air tanker, even that VLAT; could have saved the crew, was pure fantasy and fiction. If any WLF ever puts themselves in a position where they need to be saved by a slurry drop…they should just bend over and kiss their ass goodbye because they are already as good as dead.
And I don’t remember giving a summation of the Valdez Fire before? Anyway, we were the first ones on the fire which almost never happened. It was way up the Pecos Valley above the village of Pecos and the start was near the bottom of a very steep slope.
So…when we arrived, we stopped where we could see the column of black smoke coming straight up from (which meant it was a very hot fire in heavy very dry fuel without any wind on it) the road we were on was on top of the steep slope and we could see the fire directly below us. It as just a few acres in size and of course it was burning up the steep slope towards us. It was a baby dragon shortly after birth…and it was right there below us just waiting for us to kill it.
I could see the road snaking for miles as it wound its way down to the huge green valley below us and I knew that by the time we drive down there and started working the flank of the fire from the valley anchor point, it was going to be gone baby gone. The Pecos Valley was a very high resource area with lots of big timber that had been left for the forest visitors to marvel and the canyon was filled with private in holdings and acreage that has cabins and summer homes on it. Plus, in the direction it was burning, it could climb up out of the valley into the world famous Pecos Wilderness in the Sangre de Christo Mountains and make a mess.
Anyway…the temptation was too high for me to resist and I unloaded the crew on the spot, we tied our line to the road and yes…we started constructing hand line on a steep slope above the fire while I sent the bus on down to the valley below. And if you have been paying attention, you can probably guess what happened about an hour later.
Yep…the wind came up from the valley below, hot the fire with a vengeance and the fiery dragon was suddenly full grown and on the rampage coming straight for for us as it blew past our two foot fire line like it wasn’t there because it was suddenly a crown fire. And I had to order the crew to run for their lives up the slope to the road in front of the fire. Whoops…I fucked that one up.
We had this FNG named Mathew Cory who kept trying to run every time a gust of wind came up and it tried to climb into the crown while rye rest of the crew kept their heads down as they furiously cut line as I watched the fire. Finally I went over to him and yelled at him over the roar of the flames, “ GOD DAMN IT CORY…ARE YOU TRYING TO RABBIT ON ME! I’ll TELL WHEN WHEN IT TIME TO RUN! And then I worked my way on down the crew line while I kept watching the fire.
It was a short time later I realized how serious my error in judgement had been when the fire suddenly blew up and I started running up the fire line. I hadn’t gotten very far past Cory as I worked my way down the very steep slope and as I chugged past Cory, I turned back to him and yelled, “OKAY CORY…IT’S TIME TO RABBIT NOW! And yes…I thought that was very funny.
Anyway…if you have been keeping track of my stories, you will already know what should be the unspoken (or maybe spoken) 11th Standard Fire Fighting Order because you will recognize that the only times I remember being in any real danger was the few times we were initial attack, which I have said rarely happened. And the fire was right there….right in front of us as a cute little baby dragon that looked like we could kill it pretty easy if we just got after it.
And those fires were the Clint’s Well Fire, the Huffer Fire, the fire were our crew boss parked right next to it and I took that photo of the exploding fire through the window from my seat on the bus and it’s RIGHT THERE! The fire on the Tonto that I showed we had to run from and there is a photo of me actually cutting line in front of one of my squad bosses and two crew members (the rest of the crew was fragmented into small groups, all working independently of each trying to pick up specific areas) and I spin around and start strait to run as the fire explodes from the sudden wind gust, and the Valdez Fire that also suddenly exploded from the sudden wind that hit it.
All of those fires have one thing in common, we were initial attack and we disregarded the rules because we thought if we jumped on them right away, we could kill them early as baby fires, but the wind suddenly came up and they exploded. And so our emotions and excitement that was fueled by the huge flood of adrenaline into our bodies overcame our training. I can’t believe we were the only ones that has happened to?
I was recently reading about how the Roman Legions deployed for battle (I know, I know, fuck me, I’m retired) and they had three lines of Legionaries. The lines would engage at different times, whereas their opponents always just ran up all at once and started hacking away.
The front line was all of their FNG’s. The second line were guys who had been on the job for awhile and they wouldn’t engage until the first line was tired out and then they would drop back behind the second line, who would then start fighting while the first line rested and then they would rotate again to give the second line time to rest.
They said that rather than just being one giant battle until you dropped from being tired or were killed, it was a series of thousands of individual battles that ebbed and flowed until one side couldn’t take it any more and turned to run and then is when the real slaughter started.
They had a term for when the first and second line had to fall back to the hard core veterans in the third line which meant in Latin, “We’re fucked now!” because that meant they were about to be overrun.
If things worked out good, and the first and second line tired out the opposing army, or the opposing army turned to run, then the officers would order third line of fresh and rested veterans to suddenly engage and win the battle. If the third line went forward too soon, it was bad, and if they went forward to late…it was bad, so timing was everything.
Whew…that was a long set up for the point I want to make with this analogy that just occurred to me as I was writing this post. In order to prevent the third line of veterans from letting their emotions, excitement and the flood of adrenaline into their bodies overcome their training, the officers would make them either squat down or kneel in place.
That’s what veteran firefighters should do before engaging a baby wildfire that hasn’t taken off yet. Take a knee and think it about what you are about to do while you go through all of the key points of your training and list of safety rules or “Watch Outs” as what’s-his-name called them in that stupid movie so you don’t let your emotions, excitement and adrenaline do your thinking for you.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QCVt32O3eRY
Gary,
Much tougher and much better than the Romans were the Greek Spartans, trained from birth to be warriors. The book “Gates of Fire” by Steven Pressfield recounts the Battle of Thermopylae and the Persian War
To guide the young boys to learn discipline and prove their manhood to become Spartan warriors in order to gain citizenship, they performed relentless exercises to strengthen both their minds and bodies to overcome fear and pain.
One of the memorable things they practiced what was referred to as “tree-fucking.” The warrior-in-training boys were tasked with knocking down a large oak tree with only their shields. The lined up one behind the other, and literally bashed their shield against it repeatedly – in succession – until they pushed it over. If they did not succeed, they ran the risk of being labeled as weak and like Arnie says – “girlie men.”
No doubt, their training was for these trying times in battle:
“There was an exercise we of the battle train practiced when we served as punching bags for the Spartan heavy infantry. It was called the Oak because we took our positions along a line of oaks at the edge of the plain of Otona, where the Spartiates and the Gentleman-Rankers ran their field exercises in fall and winter. We would line up ten deep with body-length wicker shields braced upon the earth and they would hit us, the shock troops, coming across the flat in line of battle, eight deep, at a walk, then a pace, then a trot and finally a dead run. The shock of their interleaved shields was meant to knock the breath out of you, and it did. It was like being hit by a mountain. Your knees, no matter how
braced you held them, buckled like saplings before an earthslide; in an instant all courage fled our hearts; we were rooted up like dried stalks before the ploughman’s blade.”
“Although extraordinary valor was displayed by the entire corps of Spartans and Thespaians, yet bravest of all was declared the Spartan Dienekes. It is said that on the eve of battle, he was told by a native of Trachis that the Persian archers were so numerous that, when they fired their volleys, the mass of arrows blocked out the sun. Dienekes, however, quite undaunted by this prospect, remarked with a laugh, “Good. Then we’ll have our battle in the shade.”
– HERODOTUS, THE HISTORIES
( https://www.docdroid.net/x8at/steven-pressfield-gates-of-fire-an-epic-novel-o-b.pdf )
Amazingly fruitful link here, and no need to convert it to a PDF, so just read it as it is!
Well…I have read how the Spartans took their young boys away from their parents at a very early age to train them as warriors and what they put them through and how they killed any defective babies. But obviously you are way ahead of me in reading up on Greco Roman history, so…thanks for the link.
And yes…the Oak sounds positively terrifying to have to face. I will point out however, that what put me to reading specifically about how the Roman Legions deployed for battle, was reading about Macedonia and how up until the Macedonian Wars, the Greek Phalanx.had been the dominant heavy infantry formation of it’s time.
And then I was curious as to how the Roman Legion battle formation could have possibly been superior to what I have always read about the the Greek Phalanx? And that led to learning about the three deep Legion formation and how they often had to make their veterans kneel down to keep them from surging forward into battle prematurely and I could suddenly relate to how we had been as hotshots with those fires….which was bad, really bad.
It never worked out for the best…we never killed any baby dragons that I can remember, they always got too big too fast. So…I can definitely say that starting at a good anchor point with a flanking maneuver for the long slug fest like we had been taught would have been the best way to do it every time. Adrenaline instantly flooding into your system can really alter your perception of reality and cloud your better judgment…just FYI.
Clarification,
I was a little harsher on Mathew Cory than I normally was because he was a brand new guy who had been hired as a replacement later in the season and so that was his first fire. And he was an older Anglo hippie guy and I didn’t want him spooking any of those younger kids on my crew by running, although nobody else was even looking up. The Santa Fe Hotshots had their heads down cutting fire line like Spartans!
And the reason it was a bad situation…is because when the wind caused the fire to hit our fire line, instead of burning with the slope in a southerly direction, the wind blew it east against the flank we were working on. And at that point, it had hooked around below us and so when it resumed burning with the slope as a crown fire, we were directly above it. It was definitely time to di di mau most ricky tick! When I say I fucked up…I mean I really fucked up. Mea culpa! I feel better now that I have publicly confessed my greatest sin after all of these years.
And the Rogue River Canyon where I live and the entire Rogue River Valley are now just giant geographical bowls of trapped smoke for the past three days now. It’s bad..really bad. It’s good for the general public to learn a little bit about what WLF go through on their behalf though. 😎
Oh…and more more thing Joy. I apologize for being so harsh with you the other day and for being such a Richard Cranium.
I am extra sensitive right now because my Special Lady Friend told me I can’t go and visit her until I get rid of my nasty cough and that is