Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV, Chapter XXV, Chapter XXVI and Chapter XXVII.
© Copyright 2019 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
charlie says
Friends on IM:
Here is some good advice that may well save your life> That corona virus escaped or was released from a Type 4 biological facility. That is where the most dangerous lethal type air bornvirus are deveoped and played with. We have 16 such facilities –China has only one where that Corona Virus originated.
The virus has spread already similar to the way the Spanish flu did during WW1. My Dad helped stacked dead soldier bodies from that flu on his way over on the ship to the front during that war. This new Corona strain may well be the killer that will make a major population reduction, especially among the elderly and those compromised in the immune system.
When I visited my son there was already case in Tempe, but most of you know of plenty of cases around the world–Japan, Indonesia, Australia, etc. I believe this one can be defeated with just a surgical mask when you are in a hospital or large crowd.
For your information there are plenty of Level 3 experimental labs–mostly at the Universities. They are not necessarily guarded as Level 4 would be but also contain potentially lethal virus experiments. Britain has 9 of these level 4 labs–something for a small country. Prince Paul better watch out, his dream of coming back as a virus might be in one of his own labs. If you want the whole list of where they are in the US and other places, Wikipedia has them
We are a war like people on this planet–even devising methods to take people out by lethal diseases. What alien with any good morals would want to contaminate himself by showing up on the White House Lawn–well he would get lead poison there–the lethal kind–one I have experienced and one you do not want to experience–nor even the deadly virus the Chinese have invented.
charlie says
China has 1.46 billion people. India has 1.35 billion people. The US has .31 Billion people. You can see that we are quite small in population to these giants in human resources. If either China or India were to loose a population equal to our country they would still have over a billion people to carry on with. The Arabs have above .4 billion–so only have the states outnumbered by 100 thousand or so. Pakistan with its nukes is also famous for housing Osama Ben Lauden. North Korea has only a little over 22 million people–Mexico City has more than Korea.
But a sneak nuclear attack from any one of these small countries would leave this country so vulnerable. The idea that the citizens should be disarmed in this country is total ignorance of the world situation. Instead, every American Citizen, especially those trained in military action should be required to be armed. That may someday be the only hope for a last ditch effort to save the Country and its people.
This Bush, etc. idea of a New World Order is based upon the hopes that a few World Bankers, Corporate Trillionaires and Oil Magnates will be able to control the world populations. Common sense should tell you that any attempt to remove the sovereignty of this country will result in reducing it to third world status and perhaps even a slaughter of a large group of its citizens by removal of protection. We have not made ourselves popular among the world nations–and quite a number of them would just as soon see our demise.
So do not think this world will come to a peace loving situation by some New World Order crap. That is only made up so the dynasties that already exist can maintain their controls. It is not for the good of the sovereignty of our country and the common folk within its borders.
Joy A. Collura says
Yeah. chapter 29.
See you over there.
Happy Autumn.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Here is a direct link to the next ( new ) Chapter XXIX ( 29 ) of this ongoing discussion…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxix-here/
Charlie says
Joy, have your considered doing a UFO site? You are pretty famous with the site you are doing on firefighting–lots of revelations of truth there but I also know you are beholden to partners there and that site is dedicated to the Yarnell Wild fire on the main so I could understand and also the religious ramifications. Some of these fundamentalists think it is evil and of the devil and should not be looked into. That is like saying an evil molesting Priest or Preacher out not be looked into.
These drones, UFO’s and such could be behind some of these wild fires if not many–they are at an all time high the world over–including such big land masses as Australia, Russia, and Brazil and I am certain even Europe where my Irish relatives are even turning out to fight wild fires. As the Canadian Minister, retired said, the UFO thing in the US is above top secret, even more secret than the Hydrogen Bomb was during that time he worked in the Ministry. Now that means UFO interest by “Trade” secret laws has kept UFO basis only on allowing the public what the secret holders want to allow the public. Obviously they have plenty fear–one that the public might panic, and even more fearful is the fact that when public is the one providing the funds for these goats, there is the high possibility they would be removed from their powerful positions and replaced with honest folk willing to tell the truth.
So you are away from your computer but should you decide to make a UFO site on the side, I already some amazing photos–(I do not think these are government at all by their actions) and of course you still have some photos we took together over the years we pioneered Arizona. You are already famous for your efforts in the Yarnell Fire, the many people you helped to get to the site and inform about the fire and because you were a civilian with guts enough to go to the fire edge and see if you needed to warn people in the area and what worries your own town of Congress might have concerning the spread of the fire. Also, you Mother is an ardent believer in UFO’s and I am certain would support you to set up such a site.
It is time that people began to take these things seriously and quit making fun of something that is very serious. The public has been deprived in so many areas and it is the shame of such organizations as the CIA when they were doing bogus experiments on citizens and keeping those things under secret protections. Much harm was done to citizens and now we have NASA and the Military controls hiding information about things the public has the right to know–Damn them for using our tax monies and hiding information that really has no right to be withheld from our citizens. And the same goes for the fire fighting honcho group that does the same.
People want to say that well they can’t keep a secret in government–that is a lie–the spy planes were held secret for 12 years before being revealed. One that came in, a long time military and top flight pilot saw for the first time and said what is that–yet it was in the works for over ten years. So yes, the government by need to know and compartmentalization has kept plenty from the public and much of it had no concern at all for public defense issues.
The UFO thing, right along with wild land fire fighting methods and mistakes, in my way of thinking, is one issue that all information needs to be out there. I think because of Joy’s connections with Hollywood figures and her devotion to truth and exposing lies, she would have a great value in presenting to the public what the Feds do not want the public to know. However, she would have to be allowed the freedom of expression and no hindrance from religious people or others with agendas not aligned with finding the facts.
I, for one, know that Joy has some photos that defy reason but the camera does not lie, just as her photos at Yarnell did not. I can add some amazing photos as well and some true stories that bend the mind a bit to drag one out of the box of control–those ideas inculcated into our minds by parents, peers, and authoritarians–who are most often deluded by their false beliefs, religious ideas and learning.
When you have astronauts telling us we have been snowballed by truth then it is time for someone with the ability to challenge ideas we have been falsely given and someone to start a move to reveal things like what are the added chemicals in retardants that affect the health of humanity? Or did you know for example that Tungsten is very near the hardness of diamond and has a density a tad more that Uranium at 19.25 and just barely under the density of gold. Tungsten carbide is a very much harder and safe and better bullet perpetrator than depleted Uranium and does not have the dangerous radiation effects uranium does. But then what better way to get rid of the depleted by products of nuclear reactors than put them in bullets to light up your enemy and make your own soldiers exposed as well? Well you might say Tungsten is expensive–truth is if you want to replace depleted Uranium at only 6 in hardness then use the abundant manganese with the same hardess at 6 or even better mix it with a bit of iron to bring it up to 7.5–add a little Tungsten to bring the density up more but keep the depleted uranium out of the environment–well of course we don’t mind polluting the Arabian environment–but maybe we are polluting the desert right outside El Paso these days on those Army Practice ranges that some day may be used for habitation.
At any rate, there are indeed some idiots that run things–well maybe not so much idiots as people the care less about the environment and the health of people and leaving the planet better and not worse for our progeny.
And Joy–if you do get a site going–I have some true stories–most of what you already know that might make the hair stand up on some. Remember Robert Long–His hair looked like he had his finger stuck in a light socket.
Happy trails and Christmas, New Year, and Holidays or whatever religious idea you have–may it serve you well and may the truth bear upon you.
Charlie says
Also–Tungsten is 7.5 in hardness pure but add a bit of carbon and get a carbide at 9 in hardness that I use on my circle blades to cut sandy mesquite–forget those chain saw blades that have carbide–the tips have a habit there of breaking off unless they have improved the process. But tungsten carbide will cut through nails with not problem.
And Joy go to your email and answer a question.
Charlie says
Sometimes if I go back and re read things–snowballed by lies not truth–hard snowballs at that. If there is a hell some of the Feds will burn especially those involved in such things as the Yarnell cover ups and using citizens for experiments and lab rats when they know the effects already but just want to verify their experiments–In Scientific circles you have to repeat experiments to see if they are repeatable. Common sense ought to do involving people exposed to the retardant, but what does it matter to some that they wiped out so many elderly at Yarnell?
And you say well that is outlandish thinking? Shit they had no qualms doing testing of Atom Bombs with citizens downwind getting heavy doses of radiation–nor did they mind sending crews in to inspect the bomb sites and clean up the area after. But you can bet those same scientists knew that Madam Curie and several that got exposed to Uranium accidentally at Los Alamos took a very quick and painful unnatural death from radiation poisoning–the Scientists certainly did not go in for clean up jobs. Nor did the Uranium Mining Companies take proper precautions for its miners–you can use any excuse to sacrifice men in the name of National Defense even after there is enough atomic artillery to destroy every living thing on earth.
And yes there are many, probably most scientists that are of a good and true nature and worry as much as any citizen about the environment and health of the people and the planet. But there are definitely some goats in high places that ought to be put out to pasture.
Charlie says
And to understand the goat– If you have a Mexican call you a Cabron, it is an insult–he called you a goat. If an Irishman calls you a Poc or if female a Minseach, I will let WTKTT tell you what that would mean.
Charlie says
Gary, I had missed your comments about how you were treated but wise enough to get under the whistle blower’s act. The experience shows the extremes people will go to maintain their devious actions and anyone exposing them will be attacked. Why so few want to go against the flow–too much pressure to point out wrongdoing by the cronies working their system.
Someone decided how the Yarnell incident should be presented to the public and others then with collusion and with fear tactics applied to those that wanted to tell what really went down to kill the GMHS, the culprits managed to arrange the presentation so reputations remained intact. The murky waters were looking good on the surface by their methods but the divers would go below the surface to see the sharks patrolling their territory.
And indeed, the Ukraine whistle blower will face controversy–likely he is one of the fellows who could not stand by when he witnessed obvious wrong doing. One man that wiould gladly stomp on you if you pointed out the wrongdoing of his ways would be Trump. This guy is going all out to maintain power–and unlike a Nixon, he will not be easy to admit wrongdoing even if he is caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
There is so much in government wrongdoing that is hidden under what is supposed National Security ruse. There are certain things that hold justification for those measures but I could bet some 90% hidden under the act would be considered criminal acts if facts were known.
There was a documentary about the Navy building underground and even under sea areas where a small city of people could reside for a long stay. It mentioned this had been going on since the 1940’s and even continues. It is well known there are several locations–well secured but places where there are at least three areas underground where certain elite can go should chemical or biological warfare or atomic warfare–or any other catastrophe should occur.
But I had in mind that it would seem strange that the Navy would be doing underground things. Then I remembered years ago I had asked Vern Harkness where he had gotten hold of his outdated stopers. Those stoper machines were not like a jack leg but had the air leg permanently attached to the drill machine and were such that you could only drill either vertical or perhaps up to a 45 degree angle. There was no water needle so you had to drill dry.
The point was he had told me he bought those at a Navy auction and I had always wondered what the hell would the Navy be doing with drill machines. They were Atlas Copco–heavy mine stopers–clumsy beasts to handle but nothing a jack leg couldn’t do better since a jack leg can do vertical or horizontal or even angle down holes. So likely the Navy had upgraded to more modern Jack Legs and gotten rid of those old stopers that Vern likely bought for a song.
It does make sense that the Navy would want under ground access to the sea for submarines and even areas below the ocean where people could survive a nuclear holocaust totally undetected.
We do know there are trillions of dollars were moved around and unaccounted for–when Building 7 went down–CIA records and records that included many black secret projects went down with it so only a few will know the extent of what was really spent on these projects. There were leaks and whistle blowers but Gary tells us exactly how it is done to discredit people by sending them to a Psych test and other means to present them as a mental case even on a project such as a forest service job then you can imagine how much more devious things can get as you go into the higher echelon of clandestine operations. People do go missing and if you remember the Foster case–connected with the operations of Bill Clinton then you can understand it is a situation where you can find your life at great risk.
I personally see the Democrat-Republican as essentially a one party system with both controlled by the same forces–Banks, Corporations, Oil and Chemical Companies and those individuals that are low key generally unknown yet own the political system and can easily make directives no matter who might be in office. They would be the 1% who own 90% of the wealth–those that would be first to occupy the underground cities should the shit hit the fan–and those that own the media in the back ground.
When Gary said that Whistle Blower that talked on Trump will have his life totally screwed with from now on–it is no joke. Some big money got Trump in since he is a friend of big business–where we go from here is anyone’s guess–but I got an idea the the nation will all be singing Aquarius within a very few decades.
Joy A. Collura says
Sonny,
I emailed you just so you know it was me today but I will not be near pc for awhile – maybe three times in this Season- I am in a on and off remote “off-grid” situation and awaiting STILL “clearance” to log back on to my blog- it has been a very rough time since coming back from D.C. yet if there is something we learned in pioneering, Sonny – there is “good times” and then there is those “rough times” but always good times again so I remember that but meanwhile if any ONE person wants to elaborate to me or the world on prior GMHS close call or near misses besides the Holloway Fire, please come share or visit me in person by name or anonymous … YOU MATTER and I am really wanting specific ones and wish I could name you but if you are reading this … please note … I know and I will help you or you help me if you please can manage in some way … it matters. I am not doing a book or movie ever on the tragedy but I am three to five percent from completion on June 30, 2013 and I know Corey Moser would beg to differ yet Corey you never met a person that was on those Weavers who has the depth of passion for that day and truth like the hikers will always have… I pray one day the person who had a falling out that afternoon if he would come to me; that person too. You seem to have got “freaked out” at the N.C. conference yet there is not a day that goes by that I think you can help even if I pulled the records on “PB” – it is your true account that matters. But so many accounts pending – too many …
I want to assure you the rest of information has not been stuff you can just “toss out” – oh hell no-
it has to be brought out just right not so much for sensitivities of others but for the sensitivity of it for sure not vanishing or denied or whatever yet in all my heart I know there is much more. I have to be glad in all things but it has not been easy if one knew all the details that has happened in 2019 especially- whoah … been a tough year
Sonny, I emailed these folks the past 24 hours because a “google alert” came to me and I will expect photo courtesy credit addendum to be made but this powerpoint presentation has us all through it without credit and I can only find the author properties as follows:
h t t p s ://7x24exchangerm.org/index.php
h t t p s ://7x24exchangerm.org/gallery.php?id=16
elementsofdisaster_03_23_2017.pptx – Microsoft PowerPoint Presentation (.pptx)
saved by Joseph Parrino for John N MacLean
I am documenting every conference and action of John Norman MacLean and the disrespect and inappropriate behaviors and illegal use without giving us proper photo credit on the pics in his presentations but in google search it does show:
#16 on left side is my photo in that Microsoft PowerPoint Presentation (.pptx) is my photo.
#17 my photo is on the left and the one on the right is from the hike with John Norman MacLean of us hikers.
#18 both my photos and he does mention us in description and so Fire20+ maybe you need to peak at his presentation because he does not say it is Moki helitack at 6:30am- you might wanna go read it since you are an avid investigation gal…he actually says “Marsh observed by Joy walking up the ridge ahead of his crew and later talking with someone on the ridge top.” Note that Fire20+ … yeah, later not “before” … “just saying” … it gets tiresome how many try to discredit or put lies and misinformation out there on me and my account … but hey I will challenge you always no matter who … really and Moser your days have not even surfaced on what we can learn from you on June 30, 2013, right?
#19 left photo is my photo.
#21 is all my photos.
#24 what an endearing photo of you Sonny helping me get up from spot you had left me on June 30 2013 – a re-enactment on the hike with John Norman MacLean yet John stated “1: 10 PM: Tex saves Joy and the hikers head out to the west.” … to clarify … the photo was taken above the Helms on the 2 track by the old burned bush and we headed West for a moment to get to Congress side then headed East which is Number 11 Anthony Rose on the Arizona State GMHS Memorial Park then down to Acri’s and out towards the Susan’s on Foothill Rd. so little bit right but more information is needed because to say headed west and leave it at that means we went towards the flaming front out by the old grader and we veered South then East…
#26 – I am getting sleepy but this photo looks to be one of mine zoomed in and I would have to fact check so I am tired and about to close this post out – yet it was something I wanted on Google Search results that I gave the photo credit to a presentation that had my information and I have always asked for photo credit- I mean come on, you all who made profits and income out there – it is not much to ask for … I mean John ruined it for so many because I use to state only photo credit yet that shifted that you have to now ask my permission and reason for using my photo since I seen so many misuse of them. I gave the world the chance to be pure – it was some who changed my photo usage so now I ask for my handwritten permission “photo release” – I never at that time imagined people to be distasteful in the manner I have seen.
#32- that photo was the pic John Norman MacLean took and he was present when all that happened and it was many months later…
and Sonny this was me at the hotel who wrote this:
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-481075
it would not allow my name on there and I was frustrated and tried your name and it posted-
h t t p ://7x24exchangerm.org/images/downloads/2017_Presentations/elementsofdisaster_03_23_2017.pptx
Charlie says
Joy–Yes I believe you said you had posted under my name but it was obvious you were the one posting–well understood since you were unable to post under your own. It was an interesting post OCT 4:2019 and I had not seen it.
Sonny,
I have been in Santa Fe-
I met some old Grants NM miners yesterday –
when I am near an able place I will email you a man who may know you-
They are way old timers and they knew about Gary’s father and said many of men died in that mine noone even knows about – “tramp miners”
you are lucky to be alive, Sonny the way they report the treatment you all saw-
they said it was a daily war no woman could ever get-
I was at a wealthy type ranch yesterday – a kind of place only seen in movies – and I walked the area and if I ever participate in this firefighting role – I need to bring more tools along and not a pulaski or fire shelter.
Anyways- still in recovery stage and if my site emailed me I am not able to get on there anytime soon to get to it.
Just a pop in to let you know Sonny I am still breathing
I think it is breathing
it is for sure one foot in front of the other
Yes there is a sadness for Gary’s father–something that should never have happened. For those that do not know, Gary’s father fell or was knocked down a 900 ft shaft that I later worked in known as Section 30, Grants, New Mexico and owned by Kerr McGhee Mining Company. There were few safety precautions taken since the government was in a rush to get a stock pile of Uranium under the idea that the country needed the security of more atomic bombs. I believe the date he was killed was 1963–the early stages of the mine. Perhaps Gary will correct me on that since I had worked there in my younger years for a time and I believe about two years after he was killed. I later returned and again did time in that mine. Maybe Gary will give us his name–he is one of the unsung heroes of Uranium mining that gave his life with good intentions of risking it all for that need of Uranium. I saw his photos and had them on a computer and felt the comradeship a wild land fighter would feel for a fallen wild land fire fighter.
Gary’s father was indeed a true underground miner wearing the same yellow suits that you often see firefighter in during wet situations. I believe someone knocked him down the shaft either accidentally or by some silly joke. I was once goosed near an open shaft and boy did I take a swing at the joker that did it. Not funny but just as in fire fighting you will find idiots that ought to have the shit kicked out of them. Those are life and death situations and not a place for horseplay.
About every hundred feet or so there are tunnels going back in off the main shaft–levels as you would lable them such as the 100 foot level, 200 foot level and so on down to the 1200 ft. level which would have been the bottom of that mine. The tunnels going off from the shaft can go in any direction but go following the richest Uranium Ore. That is found by drilling long holes–usually 75 ft drill holes -and I have done these –you use a jack leg which is essentially a Jack Hammer you see on streets attached to an air leg that lifts the machine for you so you can drill horizontally or vertically or any angle in between. The long holes are made by screwing on a 4 foot piece of drill steel as you advance until reaching what distance the geologist wants to push a probe up into to measure radioactive levels.
So there is a little about the experience of Uranium Mining and I had known when my son Ted got caught up in a huge boat winch by his glove catching on a frayed cable how that could happen. When blasting out uranium in a stope you tie a slusher bucket off by drilling a hole in the face after a blast then screwing in a rock bolt and plate with your jack leg and a steel that has a socket to fit the square head of a rock bolt. A block or pully is hung off the bolt and plate and cable that is attatched to the back of the slusher bucket. That way you can pull the bucket back to the face over the muck and ore–there is another cable attached to the front of the bucket to drag it back toward the operator. That winch of course has two sides, one side pulls the bucket forward the other side back and is operated with a lever–and yes with slusher cables you could be caught in one like Ted was–but once you take your hand off the lever it snaps back and immediately stops the winch. So on the same principle my son had his arm literally torn loose from his body and was being wrapped up in a huge boat winch–by luck a boss heard his screams and ran and shut the winch down. Simply because they neglected to replace a defective lever my son lost the use of his arm and eventually died from the medications to keep him out of pain. He had gone through many operations, including removing nerves all the way from his ankles to his buttocks which they attempted to implant in his arm but that never worked.
So you see how I can be so angered that Gary’s Dad’s death was never properly reported, nor were the Storm King Deaths reported truthfully as to causes, nor were the Montana
Mann Gulch deaths reported with the correct information. Dr. Ted Putnam was lead investigator on the Storm King involving 14 deaths and he spent years–I believe about 10–investigating those 13 deaths. He certainly was not wanted to investigate the Yarnell incident of 19 deaths and was even discouraged from going into that area. He had found too many discrepancies in the 27 earlier wild land fire fighting deaths so that the so called Fire Gods, tin men that they are, were totally uncomfortable having him anywhere around. His credentials are too overwhelming and his character impeccable to have such an authority on wild land fire deaths looking into another cover up.
So yes, Joy, I did have a tinge of guilt after I had learned that the hybrid GMHS crew had dropped off in that box canyon of choked manzanita growth. I had though what if I could have been there to stop them. How could they have done that knowing they were supposed seasoned wild land fire fighters-it would be like a Uranium miner going into an open stope. (an open stope is an open area where no mesh was bolted up to keep a rock of slab from falling and either injuring or killing you). And if a miner did that and he were seen by a boss or shifter and reported he would automatically be fired–the one thing they would automatically fire you for since too many were injured or killed that way–a big expense on the company.
There you have it–a bit about the hard rock and Uranium tramp miner. The tramp miner came from miners because they were such a breed that you did not fuck with them–they knew their lives were on line and kind of like a war zone. And mining depends on the price of metals or demand. When tungsten was up the mines were open–but as soon as price drops they would close so your job was always iffy. I was a raise miner at Fierro, NM for a measly 9 months when a strike shut that one down. A zinc mine I worked in at Mt Hope Nevada I was fired because the boss and I were together on a three day drunk–he would not let me go back to work and wanted the company. I did not care–that was a rat hole and I was nearly killed there more than once–once a slab as big as a pickup truck fell within a foot of making a pancake out of me and George–that boss I was with. That was one dangerous rat hole–but I was at work in the Union Carbide Tungsten mine near Rachael, NV within two days of being fired. That mine shut down in only a year or so–tungsten prices and it just did not make Union Carbide enough money. But I had rolled my pickup and dis located a shoulder so lost that job.
But you can see the independence of being a miner but know that as high a paying occupation as it is, it is iffy. My Mormon helper at that Tempaiute mine bought himself a new pickup and got in debt since he had thought that job was going to be a long one. It shut down soon after my accident. The sad thing was some from Bisbee Arizona were coming there. That open pit mine had operated for years and some of those miners–I have never been an open pit miner–but they had almost got to retirement –you needed 20 years–then the mine shut down so Phillips Dodge did not have to pay retirement to any of them so they were seeking jobs at random mines and an open pit miner is not savvy to underground mining. But that is the way the cookie crumbles for some.
Here I am still picking up rocks on the desert hikes I am making and can smile this morning at seeing the fellows–my pooches wrestle with each other and happy to see they are going to be amply fed and walked on another hike–without leashes I might add. I dont have one either or a barbed wire around my neck that someone wants to twist.
Charlie says
I did only two short hikes today–those recent October rains had mudded up a field that is a drainage area about a half mile back. So I did cross at least a quarter mile area where I had to hop from grass mound to mound but still areas where your clod-hoppers get mudded so bad that you have extra pounds on your shoes. An Indian would have taken off his moccasins and waded through bare footed–but I did not think of that until now–other things on my mind and I was able to bear the weight by huffing and puffing. It was a great thing to get across that plain and I could see that the dry lake some two more miles south had filled with water.–That lake had killed one cow that got stuck there and I had photos of–she looked like a cattle mutilation when I hiked by her carcass a few weeks back when the lake was bone dry–but despite what looked like she had been dropped from a heilcopter, I know she was stuck in the mud when that lake bed had filled with rain water. I wondered why the rancher had not tried to rescue her since his home faces that dry lake bed and she was about three quarters of a mile away in his plain sight. She was close enough to the edge of the lake and the water had to be shallow–less than 3 inches I would say since the mud was pushed up by her sides and with both legs folded under there was an evidence trail for only about three ft where she either struggled or slid–but no tracks leading in–her carcuss is still there but you would be wading shallow water and fighting mud to get to her. Oddly my dog the “White Coyote” and Blackie would not get close and there was no evidence of any coyotes or other carrion had ever approached the animal. Generally the buzzards and animals tear a dead animal apart and scatter bones everywhere but this one had been dead what looked to be months and was now petrified and only the hide peeled back from the face exposing up to just above the eye sockets? Strange and I will go back for more photos after the two or three inches of H2O evaporate. My phone that had the other photos was ran over by a semi when I forgot it on the side of my pick up.
For some reason because I had remembered that building 7 came down like a demolition job, I was interested in how that is done. I have used dynamite and prima cord wrapped around a timber or a stick of powder (dynamite) tied to a 12×12 timber will cause it to splinter apart. I had understood that 1700 engineers were not satisfied with the government version of things and had signed a petition to get a re-investigation. The government had lagged its feet–they had enough to deal with on the twin towers and those deaths so it was 7 years until the Building 7 investigation was completed.
Then there was a fireman on TV the other day of 30 years NY experience of burning buildings–He said in his 30 years of experience he had never seen high rise buildings come down due to an office fire. Building 7 sustained very little damage where some of the other buildings did but did not implode as did 7 and the twin towers.
A guy with 30 years in the NY City fire fighting ought to know his onions damn well and this guy had witnessed the fall of these buildings so I had to think wow–but it must be hard as hell to bring a building down.
Now having been an underground miner and having handled dynamite and even cramming it into holes for my Dad, I thought I ought to look into this building demolition thing. To my surprise it is not all that complicated. Of course, like mining, you need to have a good period of experience on how much dynamite to use, where to drill your holes and how to space them and a burn hole so you can pull the round. There are different ways to do it but each has to be done correctly or the round freezes and you will find yourself usually with a difficulty of re drilling and re firing a round. If you happen to drill into a dud hole which did occasionally happen to miners they they were off to their maker. I have drilled out a few rounds that did not fully pull and you are sure to have a few holes with dynamite still loaded in them–and it is a risky thing to do if you don’t see those and properly fire them before re drilling.
But the demolition I find is not all that complicated–I see they mainly take out the support beams on the first floor with charges and the middle support is fired first if you want the building to implode on itself. Electric blasting caps are set in milliseconds so that you can use them according to what you want to do. In pulling a round in a face say in a tunnel you would fire the burn hole first–that pulls out enough rock so you can then fire your center holes, then the back or top holes then the bottom holes say to shove the muck back or if you prefer in a v cut work the v from center to the side–all done will millisecond electric caps or if fuses you cut shorter ones for the burn hole and so forth.
So with a building they sometimes do also the second floor and if it is very tall then the charges are set to beams ever so many floors like a sequence of towers. Of course a plan is needed of the building to locate the support beams and a bit of time to drill cement around the steel support beams and get a hotter type special explosive next to the steel. Computers are now used as well to determine the best charge so this stuff is something a miner could learn fairly quick.
For mine charges you string a double stranded wire out from the face a ways where the blast won’t affect you and touch the ends to a battery or a box that is made for that purpose–a battery works fine since it takes very little electricity to set off a blasting cap. But in a building situation it is the use of a remote switch and a cheap 6 V battery or the like and you just send a radio frequency out from a mile away if you want–why you see them say turn off radios in a blasting area–in case they happen to be using remote switches.
So maybe that fire man had his first view of some imploding buildings–but it was not all that complicated to do that.
Charlie says
Joy, The people from the UK did show up to film the ordeal about my dog shooting me. I took all day–tired me out for sure –started at 8 and ended at 4. Had me lay under the truck as I had after being shot and many takes of the dogs and retakes. I had not known that it would be a job. So Mark my son was there as well and will be paid $250 for taking off from work. I am not sure how their take will be but I am sure some Brits will get entertained.
I did talk about the 19 and their demise and also about the half million tons of retardant that was dumped around Yarnell with the loss of 200 elderly in 6 years after those dumps. They were amazed to hear that and knew nothing about the 19 deaths of the GMHS. So I did direct them to Investigative Media–maybe it will draw some attention there since outsiders have a more objective view of things that the media here caught in a hard place not wanting to face too many of the facts since the general consensus it to go with the flow.
Long day–Cheers and Happy Trails.
Charlie says
That should have maybe been half million gallons retardant. We never had any real solid statistics on that and I was going off what someone has posted somewhere. Maybe WTKTT or someone knows the facts of all that was dumped on the Yarnell Fire and the Tenderfoot Fire soon after–I had mentioned both fires.
Charlie says
It is cold outside enough I have lighted up my tin heater and even enjoying a baloney slice being fried in a skillet on top. I made popcorn on it last night and perfect–enough I did a second batch while watching a documentary. Truth has always been stranger than fiction to me and I am certain with all the government secrecy that we are even ahead of the star wars movies in technology–much of course such as free energy will not be revealed. The powers that be are beholden to oil companies and chemical giants that expend millions to put them in office and besides own the media as well.
They will tell you the economy will be ruined if we get off oil–always garbage but presented in a way the general public will believe –after all they voted these entities into office –or did they really and did it matter which of the two you have represent your interest?
Most religious people will have you basing your life on faith–so you have a faith in your Preacher, Priest., Rabbi, or Mullah and in your President since God said you should and not only that you voted for him/her and you ought to have faith in yourself and God. Well if you are an alien you better have faith in An and Anna–and if a Celt, Ana (Danu),. or if a Viking perhaps Odin and Frigg might help matters, and if an Indian perhaps one of the Gods of the Happy hunting grounds or if Mayan, Itzamna, the creator Goddess. You might even respect the earliest of writings in cuneiform and refer to An and his sons Inki and Inlil, or some of their later generations of Osirus and other entities. But at least your brain has been trained and you live in a contented state awaiting your turn to either be raptured or moved to Hades, or maybe Pergatory, then a Heaven of sorts and descriptions depending upon the trends, cultures, fakirs, preachers, Bible interpretations, Pope’s ideas, and so forth of the era.
Good luck, there are 7 and one half billion residing now and plenty of billions already deceased so if you get a ticket to be among the 144,000 it will be like winning the lottery chances reduced by a factor of ten I suspect. Well you might have a pretty good Biblical chance since King David had a soldier killed so he could lay with his wife and he is touted as one of God’s favorites. But I think a tearful repentance got him some reprieve there and for a few other bad things he did. Well he knocked out and sliced up that giant and sent his arms, torso, head and other parts around to various kingdoms to express how you might wind up against the tribe of Judah. I think he kept the big penis for his own prize possession.
Well whatever idea you have for religion is fine with me. I do not proselyte–we have too much hidden and too many lies fed to us from birth so that the authoritarian types maintain their control, the preachers, priests and even the devil worshipers enjoy their stations and life goes on more or less in a mundane fashion with people accepting the propaganda and life on murky, often stormy but sometimes still waters How can we know if we do not know the facts and truth of matters — just so many phonies in the world and those that will not own up to the truth in important matters–we are left to have to delve into things ourselves. Can we accept the unacceptable?
But I was not to muse on that line of thought–instead about mining uranium and stopes. Wild land fire fighters start out as heroes. Uranium miners and most hard rock miners are usually dreaded dregs of society–wild men found in your worst dives, let all hell loose once they survive a day at the mine and acting as if it is their last day alive though they might have many and a retirement of good old age slim but possible.
I was a tramp miner–a name given to the type miner who when things were not right or the mine shut down because the mine was no longer profitible would grab his sleeping bag, diggers and hard hat and hit the road to where it was rumored miners were needed. It was 99% sure you had a job if that mine was operating and God always allows miners into heaven since he knows they won’t stay long despite Peter at the gate wanting to keep them out.
So about stopes=- Stopes are the miners’ working face. They can be just a few feet wide–say 15 or even 50 and an open stope is very dangerous. Open stopes are created by pulling Pillars. The Pillars are what holds the mine up. In Uranium mining in the richest ore, every 50 ft crosscuts are made so that 50 foot square pillars are made. Then there is pulling Pillars. The Pillar miner is akin to the Raise Miner in that it is a job that is bound to eventually get you hurt or killed. The Pillar miner goes in and starts slicing off the edges of the tunnels and shushing the ore out so that there is an open stope. In Uranium mining it was nothing to look up over a hundred feet where the unsupported sandstone had fallen in an open stope. So my hard hat is off to the many Pillar miners that did not make it or were hurt–especially in Uranium mining.
Hard Rock mining is not so bad in open stopes but as I once said I have had a slab the size of a vehicle only more dense fall so close more than once that only good fortune had been the reprieve. George Latham, foreman and a man that his lungs were so bad that he had to take ten minutes to climb a 30 ft. ladder was with me on one of those times in the Mt Hope Zinc mine in Nevada. But mining is like going to war–you become very religious and just do what the Bible says eat, drink and be merry. If you are a mormon-and I had a Mormon helper at the Tungsten mine 7 miles out of Rachael Nevada, that downwind place for cancer studies, and I think he said thank you Joseph when he stubbed his toe. I wonder if he is still alive–likely cause he was not a tramp miner and had other interests and affiliations.
So, yes–might be a good thing for the wild land fire fighter to have a mentor. And maybe it is not a bad idea to do what the GMHS crew did concerning religion if it can get you away from drugs then go for Jesus or Allah–though I am not for head bumping of any kind. Even the foot ball players wear helments–and I can’t count the times I have bumped my head in a tight rat hole when I did not have a hard hat on.
But the whole world lives dangerously–just avoid it where possible–but someone has to do the dirty work.
Charlie says
Now before you make a joke about someone believing in UFO’, you need to go to Tubi and get through a documentary titled BEYOND THE SPECTRUM– It is a bit hard getting through the beginning where Jaime Maussan describes his Journalistic Journey and how he got there. Jaime speaks good enough English and it is easy to see he is an honest person–quite sincere at getting at the truth of a situation.
After the documentary some might want to get an infrared camera–but not all is on infrared. There is also an American pilot telling his encounter–with others–and just too many people that see these things and now record them.
Perhaps someday I will tell of my experience of a silent bright light hovering over me sometime in the desert night maybe midnight maybe earlier and the next thing I remember is walking down the Southern Pacific railroad with ripped up clothing–and to this day I can not tell you what happened to get me 20 miles from where I had seen that light? Joy knows the whole story–but like most you just do not want to be called a crazy by telling something you absolutely know happened but have no explanation of it. On that track I was walking the wrong way like a zombie when my mind suddenly began to register again. What was it? Well it was a brain farc for sure–and to this day no recollection of that interim. I have been there since to see the distance and from where I was to where I wound up is way too far to have made it walking through the mesquites, barbed wire fences, ditches and obstacles–so did an alien grab me and suck me up into that light? Your guess is a good as mine.
And maybe like the Yarnell incident I will get to the rest of the story–maybe even sooner than six years.
Charlie says
I once sold gold when it was around 300–I was good at it and people that bought some in the hundreds of thousands from me made a killing once it went up. I am now buying myself a bit of silver–it has been low for a long time about 20 per ounce–expect it to take off once that market bubbles. Well otherwise hang on to the green back–it will do well for paper decorations and St Patrick day fire starter.
But this country will never go broke–how can it–when the government needs money they borrow from the Fed Reserve by taking an official looking paper and exchanging that for green backs. That goes into the Bank–and the Bank only needs 10% on deposit so they can lend out 90% which is mostly deposited right back and again they can lend out another 90% and so on so they create a bunch of debt and do well with usury. When short of money they can again print a piece of paper with a neat seal and official looks–trade it to the Federal Reserve for more green backs–of course they pay an interest fee of green backs to get that money supply but they also get to lend out all that and more for their interest–the debtors are all happy paying the interest and things are good. But somewhere folks might figure out the pyramid scheme it is —and that might be a good time to have some silver, gold or a good sack of beans and potatoes. Gold is expensive right now–but maybe not if you have lots of the green–if not opt for silver but it is heavier.
Trump was about to refuse a few hundred millions of these green backs to the Ukraine if they did not investigate Biden and Son–but it might cost him some. Kind of like Nixon when he had his cronies break into the Democratic Headquarters. These guys fight among each other–and do crap like that–but just don’t get caught since the other side will want your seat. Using tax payer money to induce investigations of political enemies might not be Kosher.
charlie says
I think that was Prince Phillip–I am not one to keep up on English royalty–but the Christmas Tree decorated Prince (uniform similar to the Colin Powell regalia)–did state he wished to destroy the major portion of the Earth’s population by returning if he can as a deadly virus to do just that. Maybe Gaia or his secret gods are working on his wish.
So you want to know what are in the Chem trails. This is from the horse’s mouth–a couple military pilots who have dispersed the SEAD–a program that they have been doing full force for over a decade. Most of the chem trail dispersion is done with commercial jets–the pilots unaware of the SEAD additive in their fuel–they can not even see the trails from their cockpits But the military pilots are under STS-12 orders. Their planes are equipped with dispersion nozzles but well camouflaged so hard to detect..
The SEAD stands for Strontium, Enriched Atmospheric Dispersant. That sounds just like government lingo–Defensible Space and other terms to make things look scientific. The job is to do a sortie ADO (Atmospheric Dispersal Operation).
If any of the yellowish SNEAD is spilled or a leak happens in the nozzel area, the pilot must call a HAZMAT team to clean it up. But if there is a question about Hazmat suits, they are to say it is oil from the jet and the Hazmat suits on the clean up team is only to teach those men or practice in the use of the suits. In their more than ten years of flights they say only twice was there a leak–the inspections and work is very meticulous when using this SNEAD since it is higly corrosive and you have to know poisonous.
The ingredients beside Strontium are generally Barium and particulate aluminum. Barium of course is and has been used as a rodent killer. The aluminum particulate is a great health concern. EPA plays it down some but admits to lung problems, bone disease, kidney disease and birth defects–young children on the bone disease. And I have to wonder what trade secret ingredients the government has added as well.
There are thousands of jets daily and if you have not witnessed the chem trails then you need glasses. Con trails use to be clear within 5 minutes or less, especially at low altitudes in areas like Arizona. Texas, and the like. Hot dry air evaporates con trail water vapor almost immediately. So I can remember when you would see a jet with only a small white trail behind.
Obviously when you witness parallel chem trails those are not commercial air lines and sometimes those will be criss crossed to make the chemical thicker in the atmosphere. “But no matter, there are thousands of jet flights and all commercial fuel has the additives.
The scientists involved say it is absolutely necessary since global warming is already beyond reversing. Without the dispersants they have determined that the temperatures would already be in the destructive stages so that crops, people, aquatic life and environment would be in a destructive stage. Maybe they have something–are these mega fires not only due to over protection of forests, but also abnormal temperatures?
Anyway there is much to argue here since independent studies of such areas of the earth as the snows on Mt. Ranier have concentrations of aluminum exceedingly concentrated–enough to kill small rodents already. And like the retardants–years of applications have caused accumulations that border feed disasters for health, environment, and aquatic life.
There is no wonder for the increase in disease such as cancers and heart and lung problems. It is to be expected with the chemicals so profusely dispersed even in the air.
The information comes from a pilot who wrote it and printed actual copies of his dispersal manual. The documents are all titled STS-12 at the top–quite risky on his part but published anonymously. His statement–he was told the information would be out before now yet continues to be kept secret. He says people need to know how far things have gone so that it is now necessary to have these constant dispersals to protect climate. He stated much had to do with solar flares as well.
;Published 2017, it can be purchased on Ebay for $25 titled SMOKING GUN. That is a dollar a page–but most pages of fed documents STS-12. Education costs for a bat hide are extremely expensive these days depending on where you go–but even the cheap ones are expensive. Knowledge is at the base of freedom. It is also a form of empowerment. You are not so easily fooled if you have the facts for the truth.
charlie says
Sorry–I meant Amazon, not Ebay–though they might have copies as well.
Robert the Second says
Came across this section on ” Box Canyons ” today from an article by John Reed titled: “John T. Reed’s review of The Unforgiving Minute by Craig Mullaney.” John Reed is a researcher and author that was a Team Leader in Vietnam.
( http://www.johntreed.net/UnforgivingMinute.html )
” Box canyons
“I was an elementary school kid in the 1950s, the era of cowboy movies and cowboy TV shows. Like all kids of that era, there are old snapshots of me wearing cowboy clothes and a pair of six-shooters in holsters. We loved Hopalong Cassidy, the Cisco Kid, the Lone Ranger (I saw him and his horse Silver in person at the state fair), Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, and a bunch of others.
” Any kid from that era knows you must stay out of box (dead end) canyons or narrow rocky canyons when you are moving around in enemy territory. Time and again in cowboy and cavalry movies, the good guys would come upon such a terrain feature. The smart good guys would stop and find a way around it. Only the dumb settlers or immigrants would go into those canyons. Bad guys and Indians would ambush people in those places. Afghans have been ambushing people like the British and Soviets in such canyons for centuries.
” What is correct military doctrine for passage through narrow canyons? Based on the Hollywood cowboys, just say no.
“I must admit I was in some hairy situations in Vietnam … We were very vulnerable at the bottom of a bowl of jungle-covered mountains. My men and I survived that simply because the enemy chose not to attack there. No other reason. Similar to what happened to Craig. But I never went into such a situation where there was an alternative.
“… there was a standing order throughout Vietnam that American and Allied forces did not move on the roads at night. We found a place to sleep for the night and left first thing in the morning. I never got any crap about it that I know of. I think the boss simply decided, “Yeah, that’s right. it was too late to start.” The problem is there are too many junior officers who would have said an order is an order. Craig may be one of them. I was not there so I cannot draw the conclusion. But the point still needs to be made for readers who may find themselves in those situations in the future.
“Apparently, the modern U.S. military does not have that knowledge. In the Pat Tillman friendly fire death, his unit was moving through a rock walled canyon so narrow that their humvee scraped against both sides of the canyon at times. A soldier who normally would have his head on a swivel scanning for enemy instead laid on his back on the humvee roof looking straight up the rock cliff walls because that was the only place an attack could come from. Of course, that begs the question of exactly what was he planning to do if such an attack came vertically down on them.”
Surely, the GMHS were among the smart guys that watched Westerns when they were growing up, ey. McDid-Not stated that they were in one of his interviews …
Reed also asks an interesting question elsewhere in the paper in the section titled “Killed his platoon”:
” Please name a U.S. Army platoon leader in the entire history of the country who ever “killed his platoon.” How would one accomplish that? ”
A quick GTS reveals: “Three or four squads make up a platoon, which has 20 to 50 soldiers and is commanded by a lieutenant.”
Charlie says
RTS says do not get caught in a box canyon in a fire fight–and GMHS crew did. But high ground above a fire is deadly as well since the fire will take the high ground in a hurry. You certainly did not want to be trapped in that box canyon the GMHS crew were in since the fire was below them whether it came from the Shrine, Sesame St. Dirt Road or even from the main fire itself. The two track was highly dangerous as well –that piece of white 2″ PVC pipe in the middle of the two track where they went down was scorched brown and melted into a snake by the fire. When Amanda wrote that people do not know fires, she was right. GMHS crew did not either and it seems that some wild land fire fighters have no clue of the dangers of getting caught in a box canyon or above a fire below apt to reverse direction. Was it because these men were hybrid fire fighters that knew about house fires but very little about wild fires?
Everyone talks about lessons learned at Yarnell. There were no lessons to be learned. What went down there was plain ignorance and for a wild land fire fighter stupidity. Those lessons of keeping out of box canyon were already known. Those would be criminal acts to disregard the lessons Marsh and Steed already knew to carelessly risk 17 young lives they were responsible for. Like RTS, Steed likely served in Viet Nam as a Marine. He would have known not to get trapped in any box canyon in a fire fight–be it bullets or wild fires. He died a hero for his service yet really screwed up by obeying orders from Marsh and if the story is true, he did it against his better judgement even to the point of arguing with Marsh.
It stands to reason that chain of command in wild land fire fighting is stringent enough to cause people to obey superiors even in cases like the killing of the GMHS crew. That idea of having to strictly obey orders on a daily basis is likely what Steed had in his head–what he expected out of his crew, he also had to set the example by obeying Marsh even at that dire risk he knew he would be taking. That problem needs to be addressed and discussed with crews and bosses–absolutely do not obey orders when some ass orders you down into a box canyon when you know that is a pilgrim move and why so many were caught as RTS points out–trapped in a Box Canyon.
Those stories by RTS remind me of what my Dad told me about catching the Germans at Alsace Lorraine. He said his outfit and another company had set up on high ground on both sides of a canyon. The German troops were marching through on low ground unaware—Crossfire from high ground in his words and they fell like cord wood. He was a machine gunner and that would be equivalent to a wild fire with machine guns coming down in a cross fire. They had wiped out a company of men in minutes just as the wild fire had taken out the GMHS crew in minutes and all because the German command had taken their men through what amounted to a box canyon situation.
The Lone Ranger and Tonto were no fools–you wouldn’t catch those two in a box canyon with outlaws around. I think Roy Rogers and even Dale Evans would have avoided the narrow canyons and Box Canyons with desperadoes on the loose. And when my Dad cut loose on some bad men and claim jumpers he took the high ground–they had lost the battle before it started.
The platoon of GMHS with said 2nd lieutenant Marsh was wiped in in their fire fight at Yarnell. Said platoon was caught in a box canyon with no escape route.
During the Viet Nam war most 2nd lieutenants were what were called 90 day wonders. They got a bat hide at some University then a bit of military training and were then put in charge of a platoon. The results were sometimes fatal since experience in war games overrides book learning. My MOS was Bulldozer Operator Engineer Corps and my orders did not involve me in fire fights. I strictly obeyed orders on a daily basis and my heart goes out to those that did as well and the sadness that many of our young men that are war time vets came back in body bags. War is a horror scene and the Viet Nam thing has always been debated–yet the men including myself that were involved believed it to be the right thing to do. My Dad tried to join the second world war after serving the first. He saw defending the country as a duty. Yet he too had questioned the Viet Nam thing yet was not a friend of Communism.
These days we see so many of our Vets coming back maimed and I sometimes wonder if this oil is worth the cost of all those young lives. Those men too believe in what they do and are heroes for their efforts. Yet there is technology to ween us from oil. Global warming is a real concern and the young ones are right in making an issue of it. This is their inheritance and some of them are gung ho to protect the planet. It is a shame that Trump is weighing America’s greatness based on wealth instead of doing the right and proper things–protecting the health of the people and environment. The pollution problem is real and the chemical world and oil world that is a big part of that must be throttled–and those kids need the example–not of greed but of doing the right thing.
Robert the Second says
Sonny,
Here’s a classic box canyon scene with some Groupthink to boot.
“The Big Country – Blanco Canyon Sequence” ( le0pard13 – Dec 14, 2010 )
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SDYkONnfCw )
“… When it becomes apparent that he and his men will be riding into an ambush, the Major turns to Steve for support. However, this man has had his bellyful of mindless violence and says so. The Major rides off alone to meet whatever fate awaits him. … ”
“… Steve gallops into view, drawing level with the Major he looks back to see the rest of the ranch hands come one by one round the rim of the canyon. … the importance of loyalty, affection and sheer guts even when good sense should dictate otherwise. ”
And maybe even some of the Abilene Paradox as well.
Charlie says
RTS, Probably almost identical to what happened at Yarnell. I could imagine Marsh not saying are you yellow but implying it. And even after Steed giving the back talk finally deciding to what the hell–if Marsh had done it I will chance it too and then likely Steed telling the men falling in line or stand back if you want. It would have taken some grit to be the one standing back there. And had Donut been there he would have been the first in line behind Steed. That was a scene of peer pressure extreme.
A sad scene for Marsh and his argument to do the unthinkable by risking lives to protect structures when nothing could have been done against such intense fire. I don’t know how mega fires are identified but if the fire scientists Wooten and Morrison were correct in saying the Yarnell Fire was releasing energy equal to a Hiroshima type A Bomb every 15 minutes that might fit the classification. Certainly what we were witnessing I knew an Army could not have slowed.
I would guess from the clip that those cowboys did not get hung up in a box canyon and managed to get through although the scene had them going through some country they could have easily been picked off from the bluffs.
Robert the Second says
Sonny,
A clarification and / or correction here.
You posted: “Like RTS, Steed likely served in Viet Nam as a Marine.”
RTS was NOT a Marine or anything else in any branch of the military, ever.
After Jesse graduated from high school he joined the United States Marine Corps, serving from 1996 until 2000. So then, he was clearly way too young and served in the wrong years long after the Viet Nam era
Charlie says
That would be true–that war ended in 1975–I was drafted July of 1967. You are right–he missed any war then. with Gulf war 90-91. He was much younger than I thought. Somehow the descriptions given by the press had me thinking he was a war time vet–no matter he served and did a good job I am certain or he would not have been able to advance as he did in wild land fire fighting.
He would have been, because of his training adhering to the GMHS creed that stated “you must strictly take orders on a daily basis”. There used to be a sign of the wild land fire fighter standards a person had to meet to become of wild land fire fighter posted along with the names of the GMHS crew there in Yarnell. I don’t know if it is still there but it listed some things that would turn most people away from wild land fire fighting.
Then I saw a whole crew of ladies being taken out of prison and used as wild land fire fighters and I thought how could this be since the description of the wild land fire fighter as posted there in Yarnell would test even the hardiest man. Maybe Joy has a photo of that since I know she took photos of it.
And that was sad–taking women out of prison and not paying them a wild land fire fighter wage knowing that they are being used like a soldier as gun fodder. Some greedy bastard gets rewarded while they do his job and he directs them. This world is too much based on greed and using people like that is equal to slavery. Certain they are paying for their crimes–many for smoking weed or other dope or peddling it–I call these petty crimes of the poor and uneducated. The wealthy and educated go to the doctor to get their dope but it is costly–works more or less the same though.
Well, the grunt wild land fire fighter is not all that rich and some use weed and dope pretty regular. I think Marsh even had a weed thing on him and we know Donut did time for his habit.
Double the wage for any wild land fire fighter is only fair these days and especially knowing what went down at Yarnell. A fire fighter in a crew is almost totally dependent on the boss of the crew. Those young men, trained as they are, if Donut is any example, are clueless as to safety and how to understand the nature of wild land fires and the importance of knowing a few things about them
Ted Putnam told me about an incident where he literaly had to cuss out and threaten a couple guys that were going to follow orders from their boss to go down in a situation that would have killed them. The fire burned over the very area they were headed to. Tells you how in too many instances these people do not understand or even follow common sense and can get themselves trapped as the GMHS crew did. Too bad Ted wasn’t there that day–he would have again saved some lives–but so would about a hundred other wild land bosses that we know about.
Charlie says
Well anyone serving as a wild land fire fighter is on a battlefield to preserve the things including lives of their fellow Americans and deserve highest honors. Those 17 fell through no fault of their own and I am inclined to give some slack even to Marsh since I believe the system let him slip through and Steed was a classic example of brain wash to strictly follow orders on a daily basis–his Marine training followed over into his leadership duties and despite his disputations with Marsh he would succumb and follow orders of the superior position of Marsh. These are my own ideas and opinions and if you wish to challenge them I want to hear and also why what I have said does not make sense. I would like an alternative explanation lie God fucked with their minds or the devil did or maybe some alien or the smoke had some chemicals from mind altering bushes that screwed with their minds. None sensible there–but what makes sense is the screening of bosses very carefully so you do not get another Marsh taking men down in a deadly situation.
I have hounded on Marsh–but I am not the only one, and rightly so. Maybe the tin men in charge above Marsh grade will start to take notice–maybe the rinky dink politicians that know so little about fire fighting will listen and start demanding a change in the system. It is a shame they have not noticed by now–but then if your life is about where the most influence and votes will be perhaps 19 lives is a small issue and since the majority of voters are already convinced along with likely the uninformed politicians, the Fire Fighting at Yarnell, the debacle that it was remains untold. The Fire Gods are safe for now, reputations intact and no changes be made. God fucked these guys over since he needed them somewhere else and if God did not do it, then it was just one of those things in wild land fire fighting–accidental death no one did anything even remotely wrong. Makes you want to puke. And what about those 200 lives that are dead after the retardant dumps–since they are citizens and generally elderly they might not register high on their agenda.
Anyway I was not going to post on the Yarnell thing. But we need to ban knives now–some bloke killed four with his knife in a police station in France–those knives are dangerous. No matter what you have some yoko is going to figure a way to use it to kill people. Car bombs, airplane bombs, knives, guns, rocks, sticks, and especially base ball bats ought to be banned. Al Capone was known to kill people that way.
The only reason anything is banned is because the government in charge is not trusting the people. The reason gun ownership in the second amendment was made was because if a militia needed to be formed to protect the rights of the people then it could. Those fore fathers knew there could be a time when a tyrannical government could again try to rule them. We fought the British for the express purpose to keep the country safe from such as the King George types. He was taxing hell out of the hard earned money of the colonists and even housing his military in private homes.
If You think gun control is a good thing then be ready to be the servant to the government you deserve to be. The government was formed under the constitution to serve the people but that has been steadily turning around as you see when now people in government can assess your private phone call, emails or anything at all if at their whim they decide to do so.
I thought Beto might be a good candidate until I see he wants gun control. But that is a politician for you and I am not sure but what most of the American public also wants gun control these days. They have little understanding of freedom which in reality does not exist these days. Yet if things get really bad–which in this world as it is with its barbaric ways anything can happen and by Murphy’s Law will. There are too many nuts loose out there and some of them have their mitts on nukes, bacterial diseases, chemicals and so on.
But sometimes I wonder if the real rulers of the world–those that own the banks, the big Oil Industries and so on that work in billions and so on are looking at the science view that if this planet does not reduce population to 800 million, it is doomed. Anthrax, Aids and Ebola are patented biological warfare creations–and we have seen their experimental use in third world countries. It was well known the effects of fall out and that it would douse those heavily east of the Mercury site where over a hundred above ground nuclear bombs were exploded–even one hydrogen bomb. Did the government warn people–hell no and those fall outs have definitely greatly infected people downwind mostly with high cancer rates. Now if you are a down winder you can collect up to $75,000 for your disease. I can tell you an operation will cost twice that much and likely end up ten times that amount of medical bills. You just fill out a form and prove your were there during the years of testing. January 27, 1951 the first atom bomb was exploded 500 ft above ground –higher than the original tower of 300 ft they used for the New Mexico Trinity Bomb. For a decade more they exploded something like 125 above ground and about 900 underground tests. And did they give a damn about the down winders then by warning. Hell no–kind of sounds like the Forest Service People that run the programs concerning lives of the wild land fire fighters doesn’t it.
It took many lawsuits and years of battling the powers that be before any redress was given to the victims. So do not give up your freedoms thinking good old Uncle Sam will save you–there are just too many factions in government that work their own scams their own way–and who is in control. Don’t think your Senator or Representative can walk into that Nevada Test Site and say what are you fellows doing? If he does he will be detained and if one of us does we will more than likely be summarily shot or minimally relegated to a nut house or a prison cell for a very long stay.
And if some bastard Sharia Arab decides to blow up our cities and their cells and hoards try to take over be they Arab, Chinese, or any other nationality I will gladly take up arms against them But if I have no arms to defend with–well I am up shit creek —
Charlie says
It is quite apparent that RTS, Gary, Dr. Ted Putnam Gary, Powers, Norb, Woodsman, and like individuals of long time wild land fire fighting experience should be getting high dollar to inform and train those young wild land fire fighters. Their expertise would not only save the taxpayer boo coos of money but more importantly the lives of those young men so green at what they are doing. You could see from Donut’s talks that too many are wearing his boots–ignorant of how to keep themselves alive.
What you do not want is people that are redactors, and yes men that want to protect reputations and make heroes out of wrongdoers. It is well known by many of the truth of what killed the GMHS crew–and if the true story were presented from the start much more attention would be made toward screening bosses and the importance of following simple and common sense safety rules. Yet it takes men who have saved their crews, saved lives despite orders that would kill, and men that can instill the fortitude in the young ones to resist following orders such as dropping of in a dense box canyon that is an obvious trap.
I have to believe some on that GMHS crew beside Steed knew that it was against all good judgement and what is taught concerning box canyons with a raging wild fire below. I know one young man had ranch experience and certainly would have known. One lady said her husband that died there at Yarnell had told her it was an absolute wrong to drop off in box canyons such as he did at Yarnell. This is where Dr. Ted should be talking to these men and paid some thousands to do so because with his bat hides and wild land fire fighting experience of even having saved lives against orders that would have killed, young men would listen.
When you get up and give a line of shit that these men were out to save structures and bunk along with it instead of saying we can not understand how those men all listened to Marsh, et. al., dropped off in a box canyon choke full of manzanita and broke every safety rule beside–you have done one of the worst disservices to the safety of any future wild-land firefighter. You may have even caused by proxy the injury and deaths of some in the future.
I have to applaud DND. He steeped out boldly and his actions will likely be a key to unraveling the mystery of all that killed the GMHS. But more importantly his actions will benefit the safety of future wild land fire fighters. He is a hero in his own rite.
As a citizen and non-wild land fire fighter I have benefited in ways I never thought I would although if I could turn the clock back I would never have wanted to be a part of that tragedy. But who would? That is history we never want repeated and therefore demands some changes and some funds set aside in the thousands to pay for time and expertise from the proven winners–those that kept their men alive and detest lies and deceptions such as the Yarnell incident became. That simple actions though seemingly costly to taxpayer dollars actually would save millions and the horrible grief of seeing more young heroes killed by careless and needless stupidity.
Joy A. Collura says
PLEASE SKIP READING THIS IF YOU GET OFFENDED EASY- IT WAS JUST A STEP BY STEP DREAM I HAD—NO OMITTING FOR THE SAKE OF OMITTING- LEAVE THAT FOR THE YH FIRE INVESTIGATION TEAM
I had dreams about Gary and Sonny last night-
They were at one of Sonny’s infamous cowboy campfires and they were comparing life notes of why they prefer their dog over a lady and it was funny because Sonny said he would have to start off saying if he was late home his wife had a revolver waiting but his dog no matter “how late” loved on him and was excited to see him…then some side person at this camp fire with them (rugged mountain man) said he liked his dog over ladies because if he called his dog any other name than his dog’s name his dog licked him but a lady gave him a licking- Sonny chimed in and said I like all my dogs because if I have things scattered about they are okay with me and my area but not the ladies …and Gary chimed in and said my dog had no parents that visited…smirk made…then this rugged man said well I like my dog because if I raise my voice my dog gets it but not the ladies they go into this mood I cannot stand…Sonny said I like a woman you know that is much like my dog where they are ready 24/7 to go in whatever I want to do and then Gary chimed in and said my dog loved me and found me amusing hen I was pissed…the rugged man said hell Sonny and Gary I like my dog because I don’t get asked from my dog that if my dog died am I gonna have another one like ladies do…Then Sonny said well I like my dog because if they get pregnant you can sell the pups at a flea market but not a lady…it causes more problems…oh yeah Sonny the rugged man said when I eat some of your good old cowboy beans and I start to tooting my dogs love it but the ladies they run around spraying that “room spray” chemicals and Sonny said do not get me started on the chemicals…Shit, don’t get me started on the chemicals…let me grab me another chocolate soda (Guiness Stout) and Sonny said it his dog came over and handed him with his mouth a beer…and Sonny smiled and said that is another reason I love my dog…and the rugged man said to Gary well Gary when I scratch my nads my dog looks at me puzzled why I cannot lick them- then we get to why we like our ladies fellas…and Sonny closes and said yeah I like my dog because the more I see my dog he does not get offended that I smell like another dog but man the ladies…come on now…that’s when I have to protect the nads…then Gary could not allow Sonny to have the last word and he says to the fellas yeah but when my dog goes and runs off my dog never left with half my stuff and then some…then all three men toasted to that and watched the fire…
Vivid dream it was…felt real…kinda like the book I am reading Wind Stalker from Owen Irons- wish I owned the book- my chiropractor let me borrow it.
Charlie says
WARNING: Due to Presidential Executive Orders the National Security Agency (NSA) may have read this email without probable cause, warrant, or notice.
What was on my email–so I will post that last email here::Keep dreaming–ha ha. Pretty much the last of me now wouldn’t be any good with cookie cutter types. Slept lot of the day–maybe that long hike two days ago and a fair one yesterday shut me down. Today only a short hike maybe a mile. I am doing them cause I know it is the end if I don’t. My lungs are shot, you would think I smoked all my life. Humid days are harder than dry days–I think those retardant runs we made got me–maybe you but not as bad..
Yeah you are hated by Amanda and a few that love her. But I think in the long run people only pity that woman since most know the truth of what went down to kill those men. Firefighting is dangerous, if the fires don’t kill them the bosses will or the retardant and mad wives will get them. It is a good life to have a few beers if you are the poor bastard on the work line.
Yeah you stepped on a few toes–ouch! Too many liars got lighted up by you. So yes, but you got plenty friends supporting you. I have the shike of Geronimo hanging around–his bull shows up regular now.
Charlie says
It is very wrong in a free society that on a secure E-mail site I get this message: “WARNING: Due to Presidential Executive Orders the National Security Agency (NSA) may have read this email without probable cause, warrant, or notice.” It is obvious that this President wants every private email so there is complete knowledge of our thoughts and opinions and private lives. With this information the government has invaded our privacy–the one thing that changes control of the citizen and his rights to question government to that of the government who can now control the citizen. Certain the government at this time may not be the tyranny but when politics change in time there will be a government that will use and control people like so many slaves with their knowledge of your most intimate and private thoughts.
Since NSA needs no reason at all to invade your private emails, phone calls, etc. you know they already have uploaded every citizens private conversations to their super computers and cloud. That information is now in a bank they can and will use to maintain control, to manipulate public lives and opinions, and to farm out to industry so you can be a target not only for political gain but monetary profit. George Orwell was a bit behind on his date 1985 but not that far either. He knew the plan long before most and if you look at his connections you will know he was even a part of formulating it.
We will make America Great Again–Trumps ways and ideas will be advanced and had Hitler the same resources to the world’s private lives, he would have had no problem taking over the World and finishing off the remnant of Jews. This is sad to see we in America have gone this far allowing our so called “Security” to take away the most basic freedom we have–that of personal privacy.
But the idiots of the world will say, oh but this is a good thing. And you forget that the government was doing such things that were later revealed such as the mind experiments on over a million American Citizens by such things as doping them with LSD without their knowledge. Or did you forget that Ollie North and his gang of CIA were allowing dope into America and even part of it on the pretense that it was to benefit America’s security.
There are people in government that do not trust the public. They want every bit of information they can get their hands on to maintain control. Welcome to the New World Order and Prison Planet Earth. And who ever believed America would remain free (at least to some degree at the private level) and does it matter to anyone as long as Trump can make America Great Again. The masses are screwed now–they have literally lost their minds to the powers that be.
Charlie says
About lining up the Immigrants that are imprisoned from the recent influx from South America for mandatory DNA sampling to be added to the computer banks of the Federal Government.
When will this also be mandatory to American Citizens. My DNA samples are already in the computer bands since I paid for DNA tracing to look at my ancestry. However, if your were a Jew or any other race that suddenly a tyrannical government wanted to extinguish, then all they need do is look at the data base and pull you out for extermination.
Hitler returns in spirit. One of the most devious things could do is sanction mass DNA sampling of those Immigrants. This is one of the most insidious and dangerous actions taken by Trump and his cronies. There may well be a few criminals among the population but it is enough to check criminal records of immigrants then perhaps if found to be felons, take the DNA samples of those few.
People do not realize the dangers lurking against a free society that is already controlled beyond what we saw and still see in communist and fascist governments. Welcome to planet earth, the soon to be globally controlled world where a few direct the lives of the masses according to their whims. America the free, and make America Great Again my ass. Don’t bullshit us Trump–a few of us are wise to the plan.
Charlie says
Despots take any measures to maintain control–legal or illegal . When you see no concern or empathy for individuals or the environment but great concern of putting dollar values on lives then you should take notice. Of course in a way presidential offices have some influence but they are only in office at the mercy of industrial complexes and people that have world influence. When a Rockefeller speaks or any of the industrialists make directives the president listens with a keen ear. After all it is their billions that put these people in office. In ways Trump is not the braggadocio monster he could be because he will be limited in the ways the masses will not see–and of only two choices–either is at the mercy of those who really have the sledge hammer above their head. Still it is fun to see the ballyhoo sort of like watching a foot ball game–screaming for your team yet you really have no power of the outcome. And for all the drama it ends up that the best team is usually the one best financed–the financiers are the actual winners in the final analysis.
The American experiment of the free individual has eroded. It had been a republican experiment.
The concerns these days are pollution and environmental concerning masses and health. Those that have the gold will make the mold. The next 50 years will be the most interesting yet horrifying years to endure unless changes are made. That is highly doubtful.
When we looked at such benign things as FOIA records involving the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew we saw pages of records concerning the tragedy blacked out with the magic markers. We talked to people whose jobs were threatened if they talked. There were official mum orders. We saw Donut, the only survivor of that crew speak with a forked tongue and withhold information he knew despite the grief of loved ones needing resolution and truth. We saw individuals flat out lying to maintain reputations.
How could this be? Joy and I were on that two track and knew the situation–her photos were not needed said the firemen in Prescott–they already knew and had their take on what happened. Their story was already determined by only a few days after the deaths happened–there would be no blame, no fault to anyone-this would be just another wild land fire fighting accident and certainly no mention of the terrible mismanagement of that wild fire that nearly killed a lot of residents of Yarnell as well. It would be a God thing where the good Lord needed those individuals somewhere else, no way would there be the reasons those men were killed due to negligent actions told to the public.
And for Joy and Sonny who did hike there they would be challenged, labeled as kooks and clowns. It is easier to attack the individuals than deal with the facts. But what of all these retired wild land fire fighters who knew safety measures were flaunted and could see that even Donut did not have a clue about safe wild land fire fighting techniques. Why haven’t they been labeled as clowns and kooks? Why have such men as Dr. Ted Putnam been avoided despite his expertise as a smoke jumper of many years and PhD in Psychology ? Are Gary Olson, RTS, Hondo, Woodsman, Norb, Powers, DNA, WTKTT, fire scientists Morrison and Wooten, and others that say there has been an official false presentation to the public of what happened to kill those 19 wild land fire fighters—are these men also kooks and clowns? On the contrary they are heroes who for the most part were in charge of 20men crews or more and upon retirement of 20 years are more left their crews alive and intact.
Wake up America–your tax dollars deserve the truth and truth is the only thing that will change practices allowed that cause deaths to young hero deaths (some as young as 21 on that crew).
Charlie says
Whew, It did rain cats and dogs last night–well dogs at least–I found three huskies, a bulldog and a white German Shepard in my yard this morning –a welcome sight with that many friends to enjoy the day. So I will be inside to take a little more time.
Some had said Joy and Sonny were out to get their 15 minutes of fame in the media. That is funny since we were the ones sought out by the media as well as wild land fire fighters who wanted to hike the route the GMHS took and to see the death site and pay their respects. We had watched them from the fire line and knew exactly how they had hiked, knew most of their actions and even their physical condition as we accessed it as we passed them on the narrow trail they were taking to the fire edge as well as the hours we watched them and the fire advance from the two track near their location. No one could enjoy talking about a tragedy that killed 19 young men–However it became a necessity to talk about what we had seen and what Joy had photographed in over 1500 photos that day.
Channel 5 is coming over to film something about the ordeal of my dog Charlie shooting me in the back with a 12 guage that shattered my clavicle, pierced the right lung, cracked 3 ribs and scattered lead shot about my chest like a star system when seen of X-Ray.
They sought me out and I have no qualms in the truth of what happened nor am I seeking fame as a dummy that allowed his dog to learn how to shoot me–this was however not a planned murder on the part of Charlie. I did die but either Jesus or the expertise of likely a dozen doctors at the only Trauma unit in El Paso, Texas (University Trauma Hospital) were able to bring me back to life. Unlike Lazarus I lay dead only 10 minutes of so and not the three days, but it was my second resurrection from the dead–that first one being the death outside the cardiologist office of the Prescott VA hospital.
For those that worry about dying, the first one was easy except for the excruciating heart pain getting there. And I was not happy waking up since death not a state of anything–no pain, no consciousness of anything. I did not see Jesus, lights or any of the things others report on that one. On the second one I had lost 6 units of blood and plasma–you are dead at 4 or 5–but after a call to my son also a RN of long time experience in truama cases, with his permission I was given blood transfusion and the Lazarus syndrome of life came back.
However on the second death I was in the copter when the second death began to appear. I am hard to kill since I had laid through this on that desert floor for over 30 minutes with a gaping hole in my back bleading profusely from the 12 guage hole in my back, one that would take over three months to close and require my living 24-7 attached to a wound vac.
Unlike the first death, I started going down a tunnel and I did not want to go. There were musical sounds and a neon rainbow colored polygon with rounded edges the shape of that strange ford pickup window. I felt like I was traveling at the speed of light. But then I suppose I went bland and I was not conscious of how long–My son said I was out for three days and it cost him $140 in coffee and donuts to people attending me–He was overseeing and had taken off from his job to see if I might make it.
I have and am back and believe me I do not worry about something as petty as trying to get famous because my dog shot me. If it will add to the entertainment of people, maybe make they more cautious of letting their dog learn how to shoot or keeping the gun away from their availability and add to the enjoyment of their lives then I will gladly go for it and no fees expected just as we did on the Yarnell tragedy.,
Life is too short to deal in anything but truth–Cheers, may our journeys be happy.
Charlie says
Blood level 15 mcg/dL Lead. That is three times maximum the allowable level of <5 mcg/dL. Charlie may kill me yet from lead poisoning. The doctor said it however is not enough to cause him to recommend chelation or have too much concern. He says it is likely other causes for my complaints.
Good thing I am not a developing child–that amount of lead in the blood would lead to my being a idiot–something a few have dubbed me anyway. Oddly I must have never gotten lead poison as a child since working on my masters in Clinical Psychology I could easly muster A's and B's. I did IQ once at 120 which is some above retardant but my son Ted IQ was above 140 at mensa level. He was doing straight A work in Chemical Engineering when he passed. None of my kids are idiots and true to my personality they generally avoid publicity. My daughter has been a manger in finance matters and has done so well that even Trump would label her as a winner. He only labels those in the multi million dollar class as winners–
I am ordering a TeePee–Plains Indian Style–whew from Underground Uranium and hard rock tramp miner back to the earth again. We do what we enjoyed most–I think as a youngster in those Burro Mountains living in a tent but with little subsistence and having to live off the wild lands has a hold on me. The old way of the Indian and my years of pioneering with Joy are fond memories of being close to nature. I have a great respect for wild life and animals.
The one ceremony I attended by invitation was with a Laguna Indian Friend named Stanley on off times at the SOHIO Uranium Mines made me understand how much the Indian respects nature and the environment. There were thanks given to the Deer who provided the meat that he would give life to us through his life sacrifice. That was something I had never done when I had killed a deer for its venison. We can learn from those most humble and appreciative of life and the planet.
Charlie says
correction >5 mcg lead blood level allowable–I got that less than sign reversed. Just do not get lead in your blood–very poison and does give problems to health
For those who do want to know the test is used to measure water content of lead mainly–few people need it. In fact the doctor at the VA, a Hematologist had to look up lead poisoning symptoms and remedies–it is just a very rare situation that doctors deal with.
Charlie says
> = greater than < = less than, but most know that so why am I explaining?
Charlie says
I had read this and remembered how labored Amanda was to keep people away from the death site even to the point of attempting to purchase the property so private access could be made according to her ideas.
Now it is a public access with even a parking lot that cost near a million to build and a trail that many young volunteers built to get to the site. However already they have air lifted one out for the difficult hike of climbing the West side of the Weavers from that parking lot.
It would have been cheaper to have spent a million to buy a private property access into the place–In fact from the east side it is a short maybe half mile hike past the helms ranch and a gravel road right to the fence–then the elderly and the handicapped could go right there and pay their respects rather than risk heart attack, heat stroke, rattlesnakes, fall injuries and so forth. Leave the long hard trail to the young and the hardy–but it makes me think people think that plan these things –are they educated? God keep you and me from that University.
Charlie says
Correction–Learned today from Mark and this filming it was two hours before they could contact Mark to get permission for blood transfusions–they must have slipped something in in the meantime–I mean you can’t lie bone dry of blood for two hours or maybe you can with the new medical technology. Shit they can screw with DNA and clone you and even put a dog’s head on a Buffalo. Science has advanced to such a high degree–yet in a hundred years they still can not cure cancer. That one has them stymied.
Charlie says
About redactions and the quest to understand them. Redactions that I refer to are the pages and pages of actions at Yarnell that were blacked out concerning pertinent facts concerning the death of the 19.
Of course wild land fire fighting actions have nothing to do with national security but individual security and safety is highly dependent upon facts. Contrary to blacking out information about what killed the 19 or any wild land fire fighter, it should be mandatory to give all facts, presentations, testimony and so forth so that men of integrity can evaluate precisely why the deaths occurred. But we saw the pages of black outs, mum orders and threats, misinformation and blatant lies and even removal and editing of film to what one would have to believe was the ultimate in making a sow’s ear into a silk purse.
Well I was watching a documentary on UFO’s. A topic if you happened to have seen one and talk about it will give you the kook label in a hurry. I have seen them, Joy has actual photos of them shooting green lasers out and another with the mother ship surrounded by small craft. So give me the kook label–this will help David and the Amanda bunch that already have their opinions made up.
However I do believe they are government experiments–the photos were near Las Vegas and of course the famous Area 51 where one engineer said he saw flying saucers being put together. Hitler was doing them–we did get the plans for their anti-gravity machines–but of course if the government had such things then it would be even more top secret than the F-15 was for more than ten years.
So Stanley Friedman–nuclear physicist and aerospace scientist believes in these things as do many people of PhD status including a number of medical doctors. Even President Jimmy Carter had filed a report when he and ten others had seen a UFO–something of public record and not to many thought him to be a nut. But Stanley had used the FOIA to get reports on certain UFO reports and in the documentary holds them up with several complete pages blacked out.
I thought what the hell is so secret about UFO sightings that the government has to black out pages–and then I thought of all those FOIA’s about the Yarnell fire that Joy had ordered and so much was blacked out. Obviously it is a way to keep the public from knowing the facts and even in such non-security issues as UFO sightings and Wild Land Fires. Shit and we put up with it but how can you challenge the government–That is the mouse trying to screw the elephant. it ain’t gonna happen.
So we wind up relying on testimony and truth found through what we can glean and the testimony of people willing to tell what they did witness. I would exclude Donut on that since we know he never gave dependable information–but there are many men of integrity that speak about it, and what we know at this point is that the real and true story is still some incomplete.
It would have been easier on the fire gods had they told the truth from the beginning–and even the survivor had that duty. But seems that at least here on IM people are not willing to end it until it is all revealed. And that is the right thing to do.
Oh, I should add there is one photo of a dragon we could not see as Joy took a photo of the moon, yet appeared on the film. I can only say it must have appeared and disappeared so quickly that only the shutter speed could catch it because it was quite huge. I can’t explain that one–it is on the film–but it was there. Maybe Joy will someday put those photos on her blog.
Charlie says
Before I retire for the night, a better explanation for the deaths of the men (and the insanity of Marsh ordering them into a box canyon) that Willis gave that God had other plans for these men would be an alien abduction thing But on second thought stupidity overrides that even.
Joy did say there was a huge boulder in a pre-fire photo that in an after fire photo was missing. Remember she had taken about 1500 photos that day before the fire on that mountain. Where did that boulder go–well we do have copters that can remove big boulders or maybe it rolled down the mountain.
Joy A Collura says
there is a video of that boulder on highway 89 on a boulder rock trailer Sonny so there is documentation where it vanished to-
Charlie says
I thought your weren’t paying attention Joy. Glad that mystery was solved and you posted–I was beginning to think those Yarnellites that belive there are aliens encapsulated inside those granite boulders waiting to be releases might have substance. Can you imagine an alien getting heated inside one of those boulders and bursting out–instead he finds himself being transported to someone’s front Yard–could it be traced to see if it is a politician’s delight?
Joy A Collura says
Sonny said_ I thought what the hell is so secret about UFO sightings that the government has to black out pages–and then I thought of all those FOIA’s about the Yarnell fire that Joy had ordered and so much was blacked out.
My reply- Yes much was blacked out but since I was there and these people who gave me the documents do not “get that” I knew the blacked out areas so all it did was show the lack of transparency and I am really solid and confident and maybe those spur road folks sooner than later gain that same level of strength and tell their accounts … the sad part there is just too many “ok” at sleeping at night … yet soooooo looking forward to reading the MacLean Book to-be especially with Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair – really am… It will tell me who got “real” and who did not … I have pondered for awhile if I should place Alan’s pic on my page from that time because man for empathy reasons I have not due to his face says alot …so yeah looking forward to their book – when is it due out? I look forward to his real account or will he too play the role as so many others are doing-
Who was that person anyways who got kicked by a firefighter boot? Just curious … would he know? or is that just possibly you “JC” ??? I mean how many days and years have to go by???
Gary Olson says
Well…in addition to my best friend and Jeeping buddy who I lost some time back and you all know by her fierce reputation, (as a reminder, she jumped out of the back of our Jeep, off our sleeping platform and into the pitch black night to engage two raccoons who had broken the perimeter that existed only in her mind. It could have been two velociraptors, Una didn’t care. She was one bloody mess by the time I managed to break up that death match. She had the heart of a Lioness, but the teeth and jaws of a Yorkie mix) dear X wife had a chocolate Lab I found for her in Florida for us to adopt about 5 years ago because I always wanted a chocolate Lab and her second Golden Retriever had died. It’s been almost exactly one year (in less than one week) since the last time I saw Barkley and my dear X wife. I sure do miss that dog!
Gary Olson says
And FYI, Una was a rescue dog. So don’t hate me too much for the three thousand dollar Lab who had to be flown in from Florida. I do have a social conscience that I didn’t even know I had until I got old and started caring about other people.
And Joy did get her Special Edition Challenge Coins for her and her posse designed by yours truly. She also received lots of matching patches (there are three different ones) so if you see her, ask her for one of each.
Downhill Direct had the same offer, but he never sent me his address, I don’t think he trusts me? Maybe it’s because RTS accused me of being a student of Machiavelli several years ago on this thread.
That’s why I was so happy when he also accused me of being a student of Sun Tzu, (The Art of War).
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/202800-appear-weak-when-you-are-strong-and-strong-when-you.
That was a big step in the right direction as far as I was concerned.
I have always been so misunderstood. Well…maybe not always? Sometimes I was exactly what people thought I was. Say…have you ever heard the fable about the scorpion and the frog?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog
😎
Gary Olson says
Oh and one more thing. I didn’t pick a Yokie mix to be my dog. I didn’t even want a dog. Una picked me and she was persistent.
Charlie says
Agree on the Lab–could not be a finer dog faithful to their master. I miss Diamond –amazing dogs and if someone decides to own a dog, Labs won’t disappoint
Reviewed some of the Staff rides Joy posted about on her Blog. A real joke. All at least the Yarnell ride does, if it is any example of staff rides, is to further the lie about what really happened at Yarnell. You know the poor little or maybe big Ranger that attends people at the parking lot to make the hike up the way we escaped the fire does the same. She/he likely does not know a different story and parrots what she/he is told happened. But those Staff Ride Stiffs are men who do know.
Ain’t it sad people can’t be like Gary and just give us the cold bare facts and let us deal with them. That pussy footing around only keeps people sick. We need the facts so we can work though the horror of how those young heroes were outright victims of negligent homicide.
As bold as wild land fire fighters are I wonder why so many are timid at telling the truth. Their should be yelling from the truth from the top of their lungs on this one–19 brothers killed needlessly in the worse possible tragedy and for the worse possible negligence in the history of wild land fire fighting death incidences.
Living a lie is a sickness that can only be cured by telling the truth.
Gary Olson says
Clarification;
1. I agree Sonny. I don’t think a Lab will ever disappoint. But on the other hand, (I used to work with a guy for years who only had one hand and whenever I used that time honored catch phrase around him, he would always interrupt me and say, “But I don’t have another hand.,’ Anyway: he broke me of suckin’ eggs when it came to using that automatic phrase whenever he was around.) Una never disappointed me either. Except maybe whenever I had to get us out of trouble because she wrote a lot of checks with her attitude that her teeth and jaws couldn’t cash. So…it’s probably safe to say, “Unlike most people, most dogs don’t disappoint” and I finally understand another common catch phrase I used to say before I became the people person and humanitarian I have evolved into today. “Fuck you…if you want a friend, buy a dog. But I’m going to do my job even if it is over your dead body….so choose wisely asshole.”
2. Joy didn’t tell me that she has a “posse” or who is in it, but I did tell her who I thought was in it so these are the ones who have a very rare unique and special Challenge Coin coming from Joy in no particular order. Her posse started a tradition to meet at the deployment site once a year a try to figure out how the fuck an entire hotshot crew was burned to death even with their command structure intact and functioning as it was designed to operate. Which was a horrific event that none of us thought was even possible right up to the minute it happened and became our previously unimaginable reality.
2a. So here are the names I came with; Sonny, RTS, Ted, Norb and JD. I also think Bob P. should have one even if he was on an R-5 hotshot crew, but he has to email me his address in Bumfuck Idaho. It’s Santa his fault, not everyone can be on an R-3 hotshot crew. The fire gods in their wisdom made R-3 hotshot crews and then they made the rest. Even if they had to start with hotshot crews in on the Angeles and Cleveland National Forests in the Cradle of Hotshot Civilization…SoCal in 1947-48. They must have wanted to get most of their mistakes out of the way right off the bat (another time honored phrase, that started…why? Off what bat? WTF…Over?) You know…my attitude about other hotshot crews isn’t my fault. I have told you several times how the fire gods created hotshots in their image…as assholes who play a zero sum game. What one hotshot crew gains…another one has to lose. That is why there never was a hotshot brotherhood. Just bunch of crews all trying to advance their position in the food chain at the expense of every other crew. Like I have also said, even the Flagstaff, Mormon Lake and Blue Ridge Hotshots weren’t our Brothers-in-Arms, Buck was only happy when we were trying to outdo all of the other crews to earn his love and affection. I now think that was one fucked up culture and ultimately…unhealthy. But…you can’t teach an old dog new tricks, so next to the Happy Jack Hotshots of Legend and the Santa Fe Hotshots of today, all other hotshot crews, you know…suck. Although all R-3 hotshot crews suck less than the others do and R-5 hotshot crews suck the most. Hey, I didn’t make this stuff up…it’s what I was taught.
3. I would actually like to give everyone who has supported this blog either by direct participation or by faithfully reading it a Challenge Coin because this…is the Official Court Of Record for the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster. But…that just isn’t possible because only 50 Special Edition Challenge Coins were ever made and none will ever be made again. 50 was the minimum order and I wanted to see how l liked then before I ordered anymore and that never happened. Which by the way, put the per unit cost if those coins very high since the dies and set up fees could only be spread out between 50. I should have ordered one million and then each coin would have been relatively inexpensive. Too late now.
4. If you don’t know the history of Challenge Coins, it’s worth reading about. They say Special Forces (Green Beret) coins are numbered and whoever has the lowest number at a chance meeting…has to buy the drinks. I do know numbering coins sequentially would really be expensive.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin
Here is my distribution list of my Special Edition WLF Challenge Coins to date;
1. 19 GMIHC families
2. Sad Sack
3. Ed Hollenshead
4. Darrell Willis
5. Two former squad bosses that I still have regular contact with
6. My dear X wife
7. My Very Special Lady Friend
8. And now Joy has seven of them
9. I am keeping one with Downhill Direct’s name on it just in case he changes his mind
10. And a few to other current and former WLF friends
11. And one of my very few remaining coins has Bob P’s name on it.
12. I would really like to send one to WTKTT, but he would have to violate his Prime Directive (other than to lay the ground work for the eventual domination of our world and to enslave a deeply flawed species who is doing everything they can to make themselves extinct in record time, just as soon as he learns how to self replicate) and reveal his true identity other than his chosen nom de guerre of, Wants To Know The Truth, or the one I chose for him…HAL 9000.
5. When I started my latest sabbatical, I said I had done all I could for “the memory of the crew” and it was up to others now. I was specifically referring to those who know what else happened on what is now the worst day in hotshot history…by a factor of X. And that is because I don’t think we know everything even after more than 6 years. I am still technically on sabbatical trying to get my lung function under better control to make my Very Special Lady Friend happier, get some Jeepin’ done, all while I engage my greatest adversary in life. A blank Word page with a blinking cursor that mocks me as I try work on…all together now, the Greatest Books about WLF in history, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” and “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters.” Good thing I am focused like a laser ligh…Oh look, there goes another white car! But…I just couldn’t resist commenting on Joy’s dream…and dogs, specifically my dog. Because Una will always be my dog. “There is a meadow on the other side of the mountain, I will meet her there.” as quoted by G. Olson, C. 2019. Does anybody else think Joy had a very weird dream? Joy is the only person I know who dreams in complete sentences and can quote them. My dreams are usually just various kaleidoscopic views of darkness that make less sense than, “A Clockwork Orange.” Just kidding…I don’t want anyone to think I need ANOTHER Fitness For Duty Psychiatric Examination. I aced two of them during my 18 years as a Special Agent. The teams of psychiatrists and psychologists who examined me (just try taking one of those several thousand question tests that ask the same tricky questions over and over again in different ways so you can’t remember how you lied and as a result, you are forced to admit the truth…twice) concluded I was a normal and rational person who was simply trying to function in an ABNORMAL and IRRATIONAL environment…working for the BLM in Law Enforcement. Say…Am I only the only one who thinks no one else besides Americans should be allowed to make movies…especially the British?
6. Okay, I’m going back on sabbatical starting right…now! 😎
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. I am being dead serious when I say that when I was a GS-0462-Forestry Technician, I always colored inside the lines. The system rewards the bold who color in bright colors right up to the very edges of the lines, but it punishes those who scribble outside the lines.
And yes…I also always said that. “I bleed green.” just like Bob P. still says today. I also carried water for the fire gods.
But…when the U.S. Forest Service Family tried to abort me and then I went to work for a Continuing Criminal Enterprise, (BLM top managers and NOT the rank and file) they taught me how to make managers get a thousand-yard-stare whenever they fucked with me.
But….that is all water under the bridge that we can laugh about now. Hahaha!
Gary Olson says
Clarification.
When I use the phrase, “The System”, I am specifically referring to U.S. Forest Service FIRE back in my day. I don’t know how it is today, or how other agencies function.
And as I asking keep writing, my experience on the line was actually very narrow and specific to theses three areas.
1. Hotshot crew member.
2. Hotshot squad boss.
3. Hotshot crew boss.
I can’t speak for anyone else. And in fact, I can only tell you how it was from 1975 through 1984 in the USFS, Region 3, on the Coconino and Santa Fe National Forests.
I spent my entire very short career time on the Prescott trying to figure out who was on first.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg
Although I did learn about hotshot crews that season the same way most people learn about hotshots. And that was when a fire was looking like it might go-to-hell-in-a-hand-basket somewhere.
A group of us Walnut Creek techs were standing around talking about it and one of them said in awe, “Maybe they will have to send the Prescott Hotshots?” And the other techs solemnly nodded in agreement.
So of course I asked, “What is a Prescott Hotshot?” And then the group took great pleasure in enlightening me.
And all I could think of was, “Why the fuck would anyone want to be a hotshot?” as I stood there in my nice clean U.S. Forest Service uniform that came with a badge?
Charlie says
Gary-Your experiences are so valuable to the understanding of wild land fire fighting and the “system” that as it is presented could only improve. It appears to be on rock bottom at the present with so much lies, redactions, mum orders and obvious skirting any truths that might make changes.
The Fire Gods forget that it is public tax dollars supporting their work-you are public servants–A servant must be true to his master and the public has not seen that in too many of these needless deaths of the young heroes you command.
Gary Olson says
Okay…okay, here’s one more True Story because it’s True Story Time.
As I have written, my first job with the U.S. Forest Service was on the now defunct Walnut Creek Ranger Station. The actual Ranger Station (administrative headquarters) was actually located in Prescott, but they had two work centers where most of the 462’s worked out of and even lived during their work week in shabby old rejected FEMA trailers at the Camp Wood Work Center.
The other work center was at the very old Walnut Creek Station. Both had fire caches in old barns and a collection of outer buildings, barns and corrals for both riding and pack horses. The USFS back in my day loved horses that had been a primary means of transportation since Gifford Pinchot founded the Forest Service in 1905. I was lucky enough to work for them before ATV or Side by Sides were invented and to fight fire on the Gifford Pinchot…several times.
There were even horse corrals and stables next to the Santa Fe Hotshot Headquarters in the middle of Santa Fe. I have a great photo of my hijita (loving daughter) feeding the horses with my mother who was visiting when she was about two years old. I was buddies with the District Range Con (we were deer hunting buddies etc.) and I often fed them on the weekends when he was out of town. Pack horses were actually used to supply the lookout tower during the fire season on on the Walnut Creek District and damn…I can’t remember the name of the lookout tower. I will have to get back to you on that one. I want to say Hutch Mountain but that was one of our towers on the Long Valley District on the Mighty Coke.
The Walnut Creek Station had a bunch of old buildings (cabins) that were all stained U.S. Forest Service old building reddish dark brown that looked like they should be U.S. Forest Service buildings instead of rejected FEMA trailers that included an office, a training center (a big cabin that had a big room) which all had old rock fireplaces. I didn’t know at the time just how special those buildings were because they are all gone now and have been for decades. Bulldozed, burned down or demolished by a bunch of crazed 462’s? Probably because they cost too much to maintain and somebody deemed them no longer needed to accomplish the mission of the new U.S Forest Service.
I lived and worked out out of one of the rejected and surplus FEMA trailer at Camp Wood that doubled as a tech bunkhouse because most of my patrol area was to the west and north of there towards the Seligman. Seligman is a classic Arizona shit hole Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe railroad town the Mother Road went through the middle of but I-40 bypassed with nothing more important in the entire town than the Black Cat Bar. Another tech and I went with Bob Short to Seligman one night because that was just how boring it was at Camp Wood.
And Bob drank the case of beer he had bought at the Black Cat all of the way back to Camp Wood until he finally ran off the road and hit a big tree with his pickup truck while chucking the empties out of his open window in classic Forestry Technician style. I think that is last guy in the photo I put on my now defunct website wearing the cowboy hat. Good thing the road at that point was really in bad shape, so he wasn’t going very fast because of course none of us were wearing seat belts much less shoulder harnesses and his busted up POS truck was still drivable by…Bob Short of course.
http://ourfiregods.com/CampWood.html
Bingo…I have now remembered everybody’s name in that photo even though I can’t remember what I did yesterday.
Forgive…I digress. So…back to the true story. On my first day of work I showed up at the District Ranger Office in Prescott in my brand new U.S. Forest Service uniform I had already ordered, and they gave me my badge, the keys to a four wheel drive truck, instructions on how to find Camp Wood and a pack set radio to communicate with who; I was unsure of since I was afraid to touch the damn thing because I didn’t have the slightest idea how to operate it.
Side True Story…I used to go to movies in downtown Santa Fe carrying a pack set radio when I was on call from the dispatch office and I was usually on call. If you have ever seen an old pack set radio…you would know just how ridiculous that must have looked, but it was the old days and nobody seemed to notice or care. They probably thought I was a Bag Pipe Blowin’ Round Hat and so they automatically loved and respected me.
Anyway…on the way out to Camp Wood the pack set got jostled somehow and started making one the most most awful sounds I had ever heard…really loudly. I was still afraid to touch it and so I listened to that noise all of the way to Camp Wood (about a two hour drive). All I had to do was to adjust the squelch knob…which sounds pretty easy unless you don’t know what squelch is, that there is a squelch nob, or that you can adjust it and you are afraid to even touch the pack set because you don’t want to be accused of breaking it and then have to pay for it. I was a very slow beginner as a Forestry Tech.
I also clearly remember attending my fire training in that big cabin training room with the rock fireplace that was probably built by the CCC’s and being told that in order to stop the fire, I would be required to construct a fire line down to mineral soil that was at least one and a half times wider than the tallest fuel that it was burning.
I just sat there thinking about the mature Ponderosa Pines I was surrounded by and I was sure glad I was a Fire Prevention Technician and only technically a firefighter of last resort. Because damn….that was going to have to be one wide fire line I didn’t want to have to cut. I don’t know how many months if ever…it took me that season to figure out the instructors weren’t referring to the trees, but to the ground fuel underneath the trees. Like I said…I was a pretty slow beginner as a Forestry Technician.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and I finally figured out what that rack is of what I thought were various flavored single cup coffee mixes that are always in the frame behind President Trump whenever he is being interviewed sitting at the Resolute desk. They are Challenge Coins.
And when we finally meet Sonny and Joy, I have every expectation you both will slap down your Challenge Coins on the bar and whichever one of us doesn’t have theirs in their pocket for immediate display and to tap on the bar…they have to buy until we are drunk enough to drive off the road and hit a big tree…in slow motion classic Forestry Tech style where nobody gets hurt.
Charlie says
It is sometimes wise to examine the Psychiatrist or Psychologist. Many of them took up the role because they were sickos themselves. Suicide is excessive among them. Some of them are actually good people–and you can pick them out intuitively. But most want to drug you up–well maybe the brain is low on lithium but generally it is stressors and finding the root is the way for a permanent cure. A little dope can relieve–even pot–but once the smoke clears from the mind the problem likely will return unless they use the old method of stirring the brain with needles inserted thought the eye sockets or else by burning the brain with 600V jolts until the zombie state appears. No shit little beaver–this is modern science, but chemicals are the preferred brain fixer these days.
Sometimes the bartender makes a better psychologist if he/she will listen–it is a hell of a lot cheaper unless you get a DWI. Well Brandon Donut is keen on chemistry about like he was on fire fighting–doping and drinking. Maybe a little psychiatry can get him on legal dope. His group therapy is always a good thing–he might even start telling the truth there. A clean conscience can help the psyche oodles.
Don’t you just love the merry go round of life? As Gary says, six year and we still don’t have all the facts about the worst fire fighting negligent homicide case ever. Nothing like keeping the Americans in suspense–and what keeps us coming here at least to a large degree.
That and the wise sayings of WTKTT, Gary, Ted, Joy, RTS, Woodsman, JD, Norb, DND, Powers, and forgive me for my short but aged memory cell for not listing them all–well Bill and those good Canadians that exhale the fresher air. Maybe we think Donut would post here or even Amanda–I did not mean to forget Holly=she has had some good input-output as well. It takes some fortitude to post here since BS will be spotted quickly.
Charlie says
Well I had forgotten to mention, Dr. Ted Putnam has a good solution and being the pro he is you can count on his advice. He would suggest meditation–a good stilling of the mind and elimination of thought intrusion so the subconscious can work on the problems which is very effective.
I would suggest if you are Catholic, hit the confessional stand–unload those sins, but you might have a Priest that needs to confess himself. I don’t like confessing to the devil but who knows any type confession might be good. The devil likely would not want to hear you confessing your sins especially if you intend to keep a clean slate after. You might want to add meditation as well. Forget positive thinking–thinking is the problem–you need calmness of mind and truth–well the know thyself type truth.
Other than that try Joy’s hiking therapy. It is called putting one foot in front of the other for some distance. That adds strength, deep breathing and healthier attitudes–some have even lost many pounds of excess fat–a much better way of loosing fat than a divorce.
To live alone and not be lonely is hard–you would need a good inventory of yourself enough that you can love life and are fine with live and let live. It is best to have a mate since married people live longer–and if not a mate then a pet and having both is even better. But of course get a mate and pet that are compatible–some of us that is about one in a million.
None of us get out of this world alive but we ought to make the best of what we are allowed. Love life and do some good things –tell the truth since it will reward with good karma.
Charlie says
I did the Joy thing today–full 10 miles the weather was cool and Maya (Whitey) my white coyote was along to encourage me. She chased at least three rabbits and has yet to catch one. She wasn’t staggering like me when we got back to camp but she headed right to my cow tank and dove right in.
Geronimo the bull was inside my fence cropping the grass. I don’t know if he opened the gate and made his way in but I walked him out–he rubbed against a big yucca tree and it went down–that fellow is strong–broke it off right at the root. I wouldn’t mind him but he also rubbed against one of my small Cherry tries and it went down too broken off about two foot above ground but maybe a tiny sprout will recover it –yet it was about 10 ft high. Maybe he is part George Washington –Cherry tree killer.
I have the Brits coming with their film for TV over there. I am going to try to direct their attention to Yarnell and the 19. We will see there are many lives there and all much more important than my own story. I have always considered myself only a bystander and in so many ways if I could turn it back would not ever have gotten involved and never taken the trip. On the other hand I can say well had I not then who knows what would have happened with Joy–she was determined to go whether I went or not. Those days I hated getting up at 3 in the morning, now sometimes I am up even after that 10 mile hike.
Well I do have chest pains from it on the left side==but that is a given after those heart stints and plenty of lead shot–an ounce scattered about in my chest cavity. Maybe between the stainless steel heart stints and the lead I am getting a chemical reaction like a battery. My body tests acid so I take baking soda for acid –kills that burning quick but you have a battery either way.
See they wanted me to do at least 3 weeks therapy in a hospital after I got myself out. Well they move your arm around and have you blowing through a plastic thing lifting a plastic bobber. But hiking is deep breathing and physical movement of the arms.
And if you breathed in enough retardant as Joy and I did on those hikes then add a shot up lung and shattered clavicle and cracked ribs then therapy does not help–you are pretty much wrecked. Just consider another day a plus. But I am a lucky one since so many of those elderly there are either on their death bed or dead. I don’t know if dying fast in a fire is easier than the slow deaths by cancer and heart attack, etc. Being dead once you are there is not so bad–I can speak to that with authority–and I do have the bat hide in Psychology then religion for more–so if that really means anything. And no I have not had a lobotomy such as I described where sharp probes are incerted in the eye sockets and used to stir the frontal lobe of the brain. Dr. Putnam can tell you more–and it would require a Psychiatrist to do that or prescribe dope as well.
There were and likely still are a number of Psychologists and Psychiatrists working for the CIA–and they did do some extreme experiments on humans–some that in my mind were right along with the Dr. Mengela Nazi experiments. But then somehow there is always the excuse that what they did was for the protection and benefit of America–keep it great or make it great again–whichever slogan suits the situation best..
I should be more trusting of Doctors–they have saved my life more than once, even twice and revived from the dead as well –those were good ones. But it is wise to look into a doctors work history–a few have a record of dead patients above the norm–sort of like how too many died in Yarnell after the retardant dumps. Not all are at their best and Joy can testify to some bad situations there. But I think likely the luck of the draw is hopefully above 80%.
Medicine like the retardant business is into the dollar market big. Even with 20 per cent plans people are finding themselves so deep in debt they are loosing their homes. And for some reason there has been almost a 100 years at Cancer Drives and cancer only increases in the population. Cures are pretty deadly as well with many doctors saying they would not do the kemo themselves. But who knows what you would do if you were on your death bed and wanted a little more time?
Would I go back to mining if I were capable? Likely but not Uranium and with hearing protection instead of the old days when it wasn’t part of the game. Would I log again–that too I would do. Would I cow boy–only if I had my own cattle and spread. But probably not since I never liked killing animals and still do not though I do kill rabbits occasionally for the dogs. I gave up meat eating to almost totally but I am not against it. Would I take on a wildland fire fighting job–I would if I were younger yet I would be damn sure of my boss and would be one to walk away from a killer situation which means I would have a short history in that line of work.
Be safe, follow your love of life and what you do that you may live long and happy.
Charlie says
Sonny,
I have been in Santa Fe-
I met some old Grants NM miners yesterday –
when I am near an able place I will email you a man who may know you-
They are way old timers and they knew about Gary’s father and said many of men died in that mine noone even knows about – “tramp miners”
you are lucky to be alive, Sonny the way they report the treatment you all saw-
they said it was a daily war no woman could ever get-
I was at a wealthy type ranch yesterday – a kind of place only seen in movies – and I walked the area and if I ever participate in this firefighting role – I need to bring more tools along and not a pulaski or fire shelter.
Anyways- still in recovery stage and if my site emailed me I am not able to get on there anytime soon to get to it.
Just a pop in to let you know Sonny I am still breathing
I think it is breathing
it is for sure one foot in front of the other
I tried posting under my name
let me try your id input but mine just goes into moderation so this is Joy but may show under Charlie-
give it a try
one more attempt
Gary Olson says
It kinda sounded like RTS was on a roll for a while working himself up to telling the rest of us what happened, but then he went silent again? Maybe he will come back and give it another shot?
Back in the day…he was the rebel and I was the conformist. Now I’m not sure who is who anymore? Actually…I’m pretty sure neither one of us are conformists.
And yes…a time honored dirty trick of management for law enforcement people who get out of line is to pull their creds, take their guns and send them to shrinks for Fitness For Duty Psyhiatuc Evaluations.
They did it twice to me because the Continuing Criminal Enterprise that is BLM manage reasoned that I MUST have been crazy to talk to them like I did?
But…I kept acing all of the written tests and actual psychiatric examinations by a two person team that included a psychiatrist and a psychologist…twice.
And then I got my creds and guns back both times and then I got to tell them I was the only person I knew who worked for the BLM who had been certified in writing by mental health professionals to be SANE…twice.
If anybody is curious why the BLM managers are in a class all by themselves compared to their nearest sister agencies, the National Park Service and the U.S. Forest Service, here’s why.
Both of those agencies have long and proud histories of fulfilling the missions on behalf of the American people as those missions were envisioned by the visionaries and politicians who created them, whether you hate them or love them. They both have over 100 years of tradition, history, culture and a strong ethical ethos.
And in the case of the NPS, their primary mission was to take responsibility for all of our “National Jewels” like Yosemite, the Grand Canyon, Sequoia-Kings Canyon, Yellowstone, the Olympic National Park, Mt Rainier etc. and lots of other things like the Liberty Bell, Ellis Island and hundreds of miscellaneous things nobody really cares about while being led by men like John Muir in the name of PRESERVATION policies and staffed by professionals who got college degrees in whatever they get college degrees in, but almost all of them are dedicated idealists who care about what they do.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir
And in the case of the U.S. Forest Service, they were created by visionaries to manage our vast expanses of great western forests to meet the needs of a growing nation who needed wood for almost everything for then and for the future generations in the name of MULTIPLE USE policies, which of course environments hate because they cut down too many trees and business interests hate because they don’t cut down enough trees.
And since nobody is ever happy with the job the USFS is doing, it probably means they are doing their jobs about right led by men like Gifford Pinchot and staffed by professionals who got college degrees in Forestry etc. but almost all of them are dedicated pragmatics who care about what they do.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifford_Pinchot
The BLM on the other hand, has NONE of that going for them. The politicians and special interest groups took all federal land that was left over that weren’t either great National Parks or National Forests that had been land the General Land Office couldn’t even give away back in the day.
They that land together with everything managed by some bastard federal agency nobody has ever heard of, the Taylor Grazing Service, and every other section of land that wasn’t given to the railroads to pay them for building the Transcontinental Railroad and you know…ultimately driving the Golden Spike somewhere in Bumfuck, Utah.
Hence the “checkerboard” appearance of millions of acres of BLM managed land that was “one for me” (the railroads) and “one for you” (the ranchers, miners, utility companies, oil and natural gas companies etc.) and every other special interest group who has gotten filthy rich from raping the land and ripping off the taxpayers for decades now.
And as a result, the BLM now manages more land than all other federal agencies put together by a Factor of X because they also manage all oil, gas and minerals owned by the federal government and that on Indian Reservations (on behalf of the tribes) as well. And land that was once worthless and could only be loved by God and the BLM…is now PRICELESS in every respect including almost the ENTIRE state of Alaska.
All of that wouldn’t have been so bad, but the corrupt, bought and paid for politicians and the special interest groups staffed almost all top BLM managers from the very industries they were supposed to be regulating. People who were oil executives one day, became BLM State Directors the next day. Mining company executives one day, became the BLM Washington Staff the next day and their job was to give away the candy store…no questions asked until they went back to their industry jobs and the next wave of thieves, grifters, con artists stepped in to continue their criminal enterprise.
And so virtually NO MANAGERS were either college educated professionals who came up through the ranks and were either idealists or pragmatics. They were all just criminals ripping off the tax payers YOU PEOPLE and me.
It was an incestuous and filthy dirty relationship between corrupt politicians, all of them including both Democrats and Republicans, special interest groups and private industries who the corrupt oligarchs of Russia have nothing on.
Oh…and by the way…it’s always bad, but the Trump Administration has managed to take the wholesale rape of America to entirely new and previously unheard of levels of greed and corruption.
How can they get away with it? It’s because YOU PEOPLE don’t either know or care about the more than 200 million acres of BLM land you own and should be benefitting from. You only know and care about your National Parks and National Forests, which are doing pretty good because the FOXES WEREN’T PUT IN CHARGE OF THOSE HEN HOUSES.
The only thing that will ever change the cancerous ethos that has been created and developed unchecked over the preceding decades to manage the BLM is if the Attorney General Bill Barr and President Trump, or those who replace them, eventually…be it either Democrat or Republicans would round almost all BLM managers up and charge all of them with RICO and send them to prison so the few professionals they do employ could have a fighting chance to hit the reset button with what is probably the most corrupt agency in the federal government.
And NONE of that is going to happen because the very worst offenders, are all of the WESTERN Senators and Congressman who legislate the BLM to sell your resources for pennies on the dollar in exchange for pennies on the dollar to their re-election campaigns from the special interest groups because YOU PEOPLE don’t have the slightest idea just how bad it really is and what’s more…you really don’t care enough to find out.
Gary Olson says
For example…here is a current one to watch…if you care?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_Mine
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. They started the party by forcing me to sign an undated letter of resignation under threat they would fire me if I didn’t.
And so before they could use the resignation letter I signed under duress, I filed a Whistleblower Complaint (a book) with the USDI Office of Inspector General which triggered a massive investigation of them, which none of them survived, but it took several years.
That gave me formal protection from direct retaliation under the Whistle Blower Protection Act and so they tried back door tricks like the psychiatrist Fitness For Duty Evaluations, and I was targeted by 6 internal investigations by special agents from outside agencies, But…I was cleared by every one of them and never even had one day of leave without pay.
I showed up for work one morning and I had my badge, credentials and guns taken away from me and I was put on a plane that same day to another state begin three months of psychiatric testing and evaluations.
But it didn’t start then because I knew it was coming for months and after it was over, I knew they would try again at some point, which they did and so the stress never started or stopped. It was ever present in my life.
The stress ? It almost destroyed my life and me, but I retired and most of them didn’t except under threat of being fired themselves.
So…we can laugh about it now. Hahaha.
But…it hasn’t stopped just because I’m not there anymore. The BLM top level managers are still giving away your resources for pennies on the dollar while industry executives do the revolving door thing with the blessing and protection of most, if not all Westerns Senators and some Western Representatives.
Oh well…it’s not MY problem anymore. I have my piece of the pie. I’m going’…Jeepin’ etc. and so on and so forth.
😎
Oh…and that new Whistleblower for the Ukraine thing and nice life they and their family used to have? In a best case scenario…their life as they knew it is OVER and they are OFFICIALLY FUCKED FOR LIFE.
Gary Olson says
Okay…here is just one small example to illustrate the point I am trying to make that both BLM top managers and politicians are in it together.
When I retired from the BLM in 2006, there were about 50 Criminal Investigates (Special Agents) in the entire agency and that included state office and Washington Office supervisors and managers who didn’t go to the field or conduct investigations. And there were about 150 uniformed patrol officers in the entire agency with the same ration for non field going Rangers in both state offices and D.C. and that number is probably the same today.
Now…I have explained to you briefly just how complex the mission of BLM law enforcement is with everything that is going on, on BLM land. which includes all of the oil and gas (including offshore deposits) and subsurface minerals the federal government owns, even those subsurface minerals that are under National Forests and other federal land. They manage the surface, but the BLM managers the subsurface.
Now…I have explained to you how YOU actually own all of that land and the resources on it, is worth a total in dollars that is to big of a number to write.
Almost everybody who operates on BLM managed land making money, and I have told you that is just about everybody, is responsible to self report how much they are taking and how much they should pay in fees because the BLM isn’t able to hire civil servants to do that kind of work the Foxes who run the hen house, or the politicians who provide the funding for the agency to operate with, want them to have any more employees they can possibly get away with.
Now…I have explained to you that you own so much land and so many resources, the value can’t be calculated.
So..here is the bottom line. You only have a total of about 200 investigators and uniform patrol officers to patrol your priceless resources and investigations to investigate when someone steals from you.
You have about one law enforcement officer, (which includes investigators in addition to state office and WO personnel who don’t really do anything proactively protect your property) per 1,000,000 acres of land you own. That is about 200 LE personnel to protect about 200 million acres of your land and corresponding resources on that land that is worth so much money the number can’t be calculated.
Does that seem like a reasonable way to staff a money making business in order to protect what you own…if you were in business it make money from the land you own. Oh…and ranchers, lots of ranchers graze their livestock on federal land for next to nothing compared to what they would pay…say their neighbor to use their land.
Why do you think neither BLM management, nor the Western Senators and Representatives who provide both the funding and authorization for you to hire people to manage your assets, keeps those numbers so ridiculously low?
Do you think it might be because none of them want either patrol officers or investigators out there on your 200 million acres of land protecting it?
Because maybe…just maybe, they are afraid that might interfere with, or make it harder for them to give your candy store away…for pennies on the dollar, or even less?
How do you feel about that?
Gary Olson says
I didn’t intend to be opaque when talking about how I showed up for work one morning and was put on a plane that day and flown to another state to begin three months of psyche testing.
My office at the time was with U.S. Customs Air Interdiction where they maintained both Blackhawks and pursuit aircraft on the Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque.
I was then flown without any advance notice for a psyche evaluation by a Police Psychiatrist and Psychologist who had the federal contract to do that kind of thing in Tucson, Arizona.
My testing started immediately upon my arrival in Tucson that same morning and continued for the entire day to start with.
After they finally finished with me, I met with the psychiatrist and he only spoke 4 words for me. I don’t know everything that was in his report, but he said to me, “Go back to work.” That was it. Go back to work. And so I got up and went back to work.
😎
Gary Olson says
Oh…and just one more interesting thing I never understood even after 18 years with the BLM.
There is a BLM Office in Milwaukee from where they manage the eastern coal mines and fields. Figure that one out if you can?
Oh…and I was never much help with most of the things I mentioned anyway.
I was usually just too damn busy fuckin’ around down on the Mexican Border because you know…that’s where the pure adrenaline shots were and I had to feed the monkey.
Everybody has to feed the monkey on their back.
Fighting wildfire…is addictive. It would be best just to never become addicted to adrenaline and then you neither have to feed the monkey, or suffer through withdrawals. Just you know…FYI.
Charlie says
You can not not like Gary O. I know a double negative forbidden in the Kings English but forgive my Irish brogue.. Foibles are meant to testy your mental stability. If ye be offended then reach down into your innermost being to see what is the problem. It might also test your empathy factor to give latitude to those of lesser ability. No I am not degrading you or me. But I would understand how Gary sets the pace for honest–right out front and you never have to guess his take on things. Thanks Gary we do need more like you–well there are quite a few here on who wants to know the truth.
That was a good article on the Alaskan Pepple ordeal. Good Lords of the Irish–they have already spent a couple hundred million trying to figure out how not to kill the fish. EPA said no matter, putting the mine in will be a disaster to the Salmon and more concerning the environment all around. But you notice EPA was not about to put stops to it–who would want Trump breathing down your shirt–did you see what he did to Vince McMahon? Vince is a pretty tough hombre but Trump had him on the floor in a heart beat. Can you imagine some of those wimps in EPA back talking Trump? He already has their DNA samples–God knows he has their Emails and private lives down pat–even photos of them stuffing twenties in some stripper dive in Alaska. He could cause some bad damage physical or emotional–wives see those public photos and the shit hits the fan but worse if you find you are unseated from your position. EPA and high government do not have jobs–they have positions–and a big pecker sized according to the pecking order.
Bernie Sanders is out with a couple heart stints–caught him before he went down totally with a public heart attack. He would have been a weak choice anyway–who knows maybe one of the ladies will beat Trump out next round–but I wonder does it matter who will be there.
Oil and big Industry can and will crush anyone trying to mess up their golden goose egg production. And in that mine they are talking about many billions in profit–Salmon and environment will always be secondary. And do not think Big Oil is not into mining–the Uranium mine that caved on me and got me disqualified to contract mine underground was owned by Standard Oil of Ohio. They generally use straw companies so it does not seem to be their operations of pollution and environmental damage. Well you have some of the best minds working out the problems when you can pay top wages.
In the case of the EPA guys, whoever put up a semblance of resistance yet did no action to prevent the mine operation from going forward will be rewarded in two ways–Trump won’t send his goons up and the mining companies will (may have promised) him a fat cat position in the mining world. It is no problem to grease the wheels if you have no problem spending a couple hundred million just looking at a mine situation. Good bye Salmon–you just got killled–jobs Great America, and progress have just outbid your plea for life and justice.
Robert the Second says
Gary,
Finally getting around to answering you … in part.
You posted “It kinda sounded like RTS was on a roll for a while working himself up to telling the rest of us what happened, but then he went silent again? Maybe he will come back and give it another shot?”
Still working through the odious Windows 10 ongoing nightmare … the gift that keeps on giving. And have to wait for the formal investigation on the hacking incidents..
Still a rebel and non-conformist. Both of us non-conformists.
When did I accuse you of being Machiavellian? And the same for following Sun Tzu?
Gary Olson says
Oh man…it was like 4 years ago on the Machiavellian post. And you didn’t write I was a student of his, that was just my interpretation. I think you actually said I was Machiavellian because of the whole special agent mind meld thing I periodically try with very little practical effect. And I was just kidding about being offended, because I think there are some good things we can learn from everyone…including Machiavelli. Just sayin….
Take Marsh for example. He reminded us that sometimes when people are sanctioned by the system for recklessly scribbling outside the lines and then using pages from the coloring book to make some big blunts to smoke with the saw team on the line…they really are Terminal Fuck Ups as opposed to how I have always viewed myself…as merely a Situational Fuck Up.
Although went I went out on my first expanded dispatch team with Sherrill Lambson, who was an old school BIA FMO from Ramah, New Mexico, to fight the big one from the comforts of a nice office and motel room, he taught me that it’s NOT a Fuck Up IF you can recover. That is a critical skill set when working expanded dispatch in an area you are unfamiliar with. Tom…Tom…Tom…damn it…from ABQ BLM was our third team member. Tom is a great guy, we had a lot of fun during that trip.
We went to Asheville, North Carolina, for a couple of weeks where we ended up at Bill Stanley’s Blue Grass and Barbecue to party. And there wasn’t any place to sit because the place was jam packed.
When Bill Stanley heard from the bouncers that we were “firefighters” who had come all of the New Mexico to save their in their “hollers” and the Forests on their Appalachia Mountains…Bill Stanley personally escorted us up and seated us at the bands table in the front of a really big room with hundreds of drunk crackers and hillbillies where the band’s wives and girlfriends were already sitting. at their personal table.
And then Bill left us sitting there without any explanation to the crackers and hillbillies so at their first break, the band and their cracker and hillbilly posse wanted to fight us. And neither Sherrill or Tom are very big guys, a lot of fun, but…
But then when Bill heard the ruckus…he came running up to the front and after he explained what was going on…the band wanted us to come up on the stage and clog with them and buy us drinks.
And then all of the cracker and hillbilly women lined up to insist we clog with all of them. I was really relieved when I found out clogging didn’t mean what I thought it did!
Anyway…we had hundreds of drunk crackers and hillbillies celebrate their new heroes until closing time because we (the great firefighters) had come all of the way from what they thought was a foreign country ( New Mexico) to save their forests and “hollers.”
Anyway…that trip confirmed exactly what I had always suspected during my 10 years as a hotshot (during which I never spent even one night in a motel, or anywhere other than airport tarmacs, National Guard Armories, high school gyms, or just sleeping on the ground in a parking lot. And during that time, I only ordered one cooked to order meal when they didn’t get the memo at a Denny’s on our way to the Crossman Peak Fire of 1980, that they were supposed to just put precooked scrambled eggs, hash browns, link sausage, whole wheat toast and orange juice in front of us and call it good, And I was so confused when the waitress asked me what I wanted, I said, “I would like precooked scrambled eggs, hash browns, link sausage, whole wheat toast and orange juice, thank you.” And then the entire crew, except for my assistant, ordered the same thing I did one by one as the waitress went around the table) there are firefighters and then there are…”firefighters.” And i did find out what I had always suspect, it was much better to be a “firefighter.”
I did feel very guilty for about 10…or maybe even for as long as 15 minutes? And then I announced to all of the adoring hillbillies and crackers that yes…they were correct, I had traveled a great distance just to do what I could to save their world.
And as far as the whole
Sun Tzu thing goes, that was just a few weeks ago…so one of us…or both of us, needs to get screened for Alzheimer’s disease and either Sudden Onset Dementia and/or Frontotemporal dementia. Just sayin….
And as far as your computer issues go…I feel your pain. I have sworn for years I had bought my last PC and when that last one crashed for good, I was going to make the BIG SWITCH to an Apple.
And the reason I had put the switch off for so many years was because I feared the steep learning curve and it has been even worse than I thought it would be.
And I’m pretty sure you know I was just tryin’ my SA mind meld thing again by pimping you about telling us what you know? I believe you will tell us when you deem the time to be right and you think we have evolved enough to handle the truth. I trust both you and Joy to do the right thing.
Namaste…🙏🏻
This is the new me. How do you like me now?
Robert the Second says
Gary,
The Machiavellian thing, if I accused you of it, would have been about manipulating and using people just to get what you needed and then tossed them away like a rag.
The Sun Tzu thing was a heads up for Harold or someone, just letting him know what he was getting into. More a subtle compliment to you to acknowledge your actions.
Regarding the bits and pieces of the truth yet to come out, I was (and still am) hoping for DND to come forward and contribute.
It’s gonna be forever waiting for me to to “think we have evolved enough to handle the truth” because I refuse to believe in the lies and junk science of evolution. It’s an insult to my intelligence to believe I came from a slime pool and so much more.
This is an amazing website well worth checking out.
( https://answersingenesis.org/ )
And the new you? You were okay