Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV, Chapter XXV, Chapter XXVI and Chapter XXVII and XXVIII.
© Copyright 2019 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
charlie says
I did not need to hear this–my Youngest Son, Jaime is in the hospital for prostate cancer–they won’t know how bad until they operate but the doctors says it is not a good situation. So I do believe in concerted prayer, meditation or good thoughts toward his healing. There is an ether that carries good intentions that the scientists call the Quantum theory. Whatever it is works.
This is something that is ;happening an despite a hundred years of the best medical science, cancer is on the rise. We live in a chemical world and everything from plastic and food additives to chem trails, air pollution and retardant only to name a few are involved in causing the rise in cancer rates. Jet fuel emits some of the greatest cancer causing toxins, retardants are extremely high agents, and even plastic that emits BHP is not good. Chlorine is used to bleach white flour so despite what they say there are small residues that add up in products made with bleached flour. But we can not live without our white bread –that brown stuff has flavor.
So the young folk inherit out generation’s corporate toxic pollution–their health and life at stake. Perhaps by collective understanding of how corporations are only hell bent on profits and have no interest in the welfare of the common folk, the new generation might effect positive changes.
My son is 45–these cancers are attacking people at younger ages and now even babies are being found with them. Can big Pharma medicate them back to health. Well not much success with cancer for sure. And now the super bugs people come down with don’t even have drugs that work.
This new carnovirus–is that one–is it a new government designer germ for low level hidden germ warfare that escaped some government laboratory? Or was it a purposeful experiment on people to see the effects. Governments, no matter whose they may be are not beyond doing these kinds of experiments on their own people. Shit, our own government allowed people to be subjects of downwind nuclear fall out without even warning them–to the tune of over 125 above ground tests at the Las Vegas Test Site. And what the hell is in that secret ingredients of retardant, and what besides aluminum dust are they filling the sky with? If you want to call it cynical, conspirator theory, have at it. But the truth is the truth and as you really got a good dose of government honesty, then look at Yarnell and the purposeful black out of truth.
I did hear some good talk from the Democrats about weening us from oil. Is this another thing like Regan–I am going to do something about excess spending and the deficit budget, then spends more than any other President in history. We are too jaded to liars—we accept them to readily and where it hurts everyone–in people allowed to leadership positions.
Nothing is more distasteful than to see 19 young men killed and no truth of the reasons for their deaths. But we are so used to killing–we wiped out several million Arabs for control of their oil. Worse we caused the deaths of thousands of our own young soldiers for the same reason and we continue to do so–America has to be Great Again. When I see Bush, and Colin Powell, I remember how they used the twin towers knocked down by the Saudis to attack Iraq. How they lied about all the nuclear crap Saddam was supposed to have and the lies they made up to cause all those deaths. Indeed they protected the big corporate oil interests and their own stocks and interests–but at what a horrendous cost.
Will there be honesty in government–certain there are many good people involved but even one bad apple in a power position is too many.
These are my requests, my opinions and beliefs–not necessarily those of the IM site.
joy a collura says
New Chapter:
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-481695
Joy A Collura says
Was anyone from flagstaff interviewed
Any
Bill?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcq-fM-wvFk
charlie says
If sonny were to tell you he has seen unidentified flying objects, even photographed them and had seen aliens in the raw–you would say–yeah we know–so has a bunch of others–and so what?
But if Dr. Edgar Mitchell, ScD, Phd, Sixth astronaut on the moon were to tell you the same, you ought to listen unless you are comatose. Yet he is not the only astronaut to tell such things and add ti that many hundreds of pilots and high ranking military personnel–your objections and excuses against such overwhelming evidence should make you the laughing stock. Yet the people in government covering up the reality of alien appearances is so well orchestrated that those that are pilots or in government circles dare not even report the sightings else they draw ridicule or loose their careers.
Well in the case of Dr. Mitchell and most of the others reporting they have no fear of loosing their careers–most as Dr. Mitchell are retired and can now talk–and do so despite the government having warned them and signed them to a mum order. These are Americans who have risked their lives and would again to defend this country–they are not ignorant of their first amendment rights and will speak about what they experienced. These are people that see it their duty to inform the public of what is in existence with the possibilities connected to what they have witnessed. If Dr. Mitchell said to me there on the moon I saw two huge alien craft and they were watching us–I would believe him. His witness backs up the many other sightings of alien craft by not only other astronauts but a multitude of other reputable people.
Yet when Presidents can not even get into the files that CIA keeps on these thing then I have to wonder do we have two governments–each with tremendous power? Well Kennedy found out that we did after his brother started looking into CIA actions.
So if you do not believe there are things outside your miniscule existence on earth where your 5 senses operate in a frequency band of less than .05% then you are one of the brain trained sheep. Science itself operates in the .05% band, yet even many scientists now espouse the idea that there is more than just the earthlings around. The Physicist Stanton Friedman, MSc has a book called Flying Saucers–check that out of a library and read just the Preface by Dr. Mitchell–if that does not pique your interest then go back to sleep.
It is a similar brain wash about Covid-19. Every President since I was born some 76 years ago has talked about the need for a New World Order. However getting a free people residing in America to accept such a thing has been a long and tedious path for the Elites that believe it is the world solution and the ultimate end to their goal. They believe their imagined god like wisdom with tight controls will not only empower them to rule wisely, but also to save the planet. Their patience is running out–they see the end near if something is not done, including what their scientists affirm–a drastic reduction in population–not in millions but in billions of souls.
The Covid-19 ordeal is just one method in the needed control mechanism. Most of us in the past had been downloaded with one religion or another. They are all very similar, yet causes of major wars. One section is set against another–and if you havr seen a gila monster fight with his brother the rattle-snake you would understand how humans are ready to kill over religious ideas–something that are only downloads operating and manufactured by the wisdom of the elite. Very useful, just as modern TV is to keep people confused and in sheep mode.
Of late, there is a step up in removing freedoms. The big pushers of the New World Order, began with the Clintons–their war on so called militia groups and bone heads like David Koresh–and such operations as Oklahoma City Bombing really opened up the use of force and stricter rules. That bombing was suspect since there were two seismic blasts and a second known terrorist that accompanied McVeigh was never found.
But the real kicker came in when Bush and friends allowed the 911 false flag event. That brought in the Patriot Act so all sorts of breach of privacy, perceived threats of terrorism, searches without warrant, and throttling of free speech and even press could be enforced–and were. If you were at Yarnell during the months of that martial law and necessity of a green card just to enter the town–one citizens were not allowed to pass though for months, then you would know the extent of power the government has in the name of protecting the people. By the way, they never did bother to investigate the many deaths of the elderly after the excessive retardant dumps about and in the town.
So the Covid thing not only follows the Chinese model of Tyrannical shut down of the livelihoods of the small business and common working man, it limits his freedoms and mandates his confinement to his residence. This all an excuse that it will save the elderly–and I have to believe the people instigating this whole ordeal designed this thing with the explicit purpose of targeting the elderly. They know these restrictions are not to protect the elderly–people would do that anyway and much better than the government controls will.
Now enters 5G and they are doing this despite knowing the power of microwave and the disastrous effects they can have on the population. But we are mostly sheep–our government would not lie to us–and especially the Corporations that own the government–or would they. Yarnell is a good example–but only one of the many, many that both corporations and their influence in government have proven that not all politicians are honest, nor are their puppeteers that finance their elections and provide millions of dollars in lobbyist costs.
And if you think Bill Gates and Elon Musk (they are the do- gooder fronts) are not privy to what is going on and New World Order advocates, then you have you head in the sand. Well maybe many do not and are also advocates of this New World Order agenda.
Do I believe all forest people are liars and government people and even politicians? Obviously not, when you see such as the astronauts stand up for truth, people such as Jesse Ventura, a well know politician and Ron Paul and others standing up–you have to say there is hope. Are they overwhelmed? Trump came in like a champ for the people but his colors are known–I saw them from the start and why I would not vote for either of the two liars available.
These are my opinions–likely not your own. But I appreciate your right to express your own. To deny a citizen that right is to limit possibilities–something religion, government, and tyrants would do- do not offend our inalienable rights beginning with the first amendment.
joy a collura says
Hey Gary-
Are you starting the New Year ( 2020) with a bang-
using your new Franklin Armory binary trigger on your AR-15? I am sure Sonny already has his from Santa.
Happy New Year everyone. I took a fall yesterday keeping me at ease and resting-
God Bless you-
Gary Olson says
Yes…I am starting it out with a bang with a couple of Sig Sauer P939 Legion baby Sigs. I had to buy two of them because they are so small. And no…I don’t add after market parts or have gunsmiths monkey with my guns by polishing the actions or anything else because then they would no longer function according to factory and therefore approved specifications and I would be operating out of policy (Standard Operating Procedures) and I coloring outside the lines. How about you? Did you get a new high speed trigger as well?
Joy A Collura says
No. I only like my shots to go off when I pull the trigger not to go off when I pull and release.
You meant the 938…right? I don’t like Cerakote…I like old fashioned blue or black nitrate or stainless..no coating.
Joy A. Collura says
Is that a corporal stripe on your grips?
Joy A Collura says
Is this how it was for you Gary
https://youtu.be/zjBPHEnHsys
Gary Olson says
Gee whiz…kinda like that but nowhere near that level. Those guys are bad ass and kinda scare me and I am normally fearless. 😦
Gary Olson says
They have taken it to the next level. Scary.
Gary Olson says
And the BIA has always been in a league of there own and they can make up their rules as they go along. The U.S. Forest Service Office Of Personnel would never allow anything that takes training to that level of quasi military indoctrination.
American Indians have by far the highest ratio of volunteer military service compared to every other sun group. And they almost always join the Marines.
I think that that Chief and his instructors are all Marines since they say there is no such thing as a former Marine?
That was the same level of latitude I think that the GMIHC had?
Woodsman says
Emulating the military service branches indoctrination training sure worked out great for El Cariso. (Cheap shot? Maybe. Truth hurts. )How about we talk about the green berets again. As a culture we’ve learned next to nothing in over a century of wildland firefighter training. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.
Here’s my advice:
1. Throw out ALL the training and start over. Hire Gary L. Olson to construct the framework and a road map
2. Establish federal oversight to the entire wildland fire service, soup to nuts and specifically exclude all of the traditional land management agencies from having any power in it. We need a 3rd party board for accountability.
3. Dissolve the entire fire retardant program. No more billion dollar red snot shows for the public that doesn’t do any good anyway. Rotorwing and SEATS with H2O only.
4. Claw back every single fire shelter in existence and put them through a woodchipper for recycling. Stop lying about their effectiveness and training good people to lay down and die. Never speak a word of them again.
5. Return to management of public forest resources for people and provide the boss (the taxpayer) unfettered access to the decisions that impact local communities and their economic interests.
I could come up with more but it’s a start.
That video is off all known charts R I D I C U L O U S.
Gary Olson says
Okay, okay, I accept take the position, but only as an independent contractor. I do have my pension and Social Security to protect. I can’t afford to lose one dollar for every two I make! That means…means…means…I would be losing 25% of my pay. 😮
Gary Olson says
Well actually…I did write a partial chapter where I compared the Black Beret El Cariso Hotshots with the legendary 75th Ranger Regiment, also known as Army Rangers with their black beret knock offs and connect the dots between that attitude and their deaths.
Gee whiz…I’m getting back up again on pieces I want to post!
Gary Olson says
No…it’s the symbol for the Legion Series of fine Sig Sauer handguns. And now I can buy LEGION SERIES merchandise because by spending a lot more money for Legion guns that those without Cerakote coating, I proved I am a sucker for the hype and I can now proudly display my extravagance on hats and other articles of clothing because I successfully demonstrated I have excess disposable income and not very much common sense, so they know now they could sell me just about anything by hyping it up as the next great thing.
Why do you ask? Do you want me to buy you a Star Trooper Legion Hat because that’s what it looks like me…the symbol for the new Space Force!
Gary Olson says
Yes…that’s right. the 938.
I don’t know…yet? I wanted to try the Cerakote. You are definitely a traditionalist and I usually am as well, but they have been really talking up the Legion series and I wanted to try them. As I have said before, I now only carry the cocked and locked because otherwise, I will just be standing there pulling the trigger on what my muscle and brain memory says is a standard double action on the first shot Sig like I carried for 30 plus years until the bad guy finally standing there trying to make to my gun go bang and he shots me dared because my brain couldn’t function properly under stress and I won’t be able to remember to click off the cocked and locked…lock that has never been there before. It’s one manual of arms at a time for me because I know how simple my brain works under extreme pressure.
As far as your other idea. It’s going to go something like this;
Mrs. Collara, it is true you are a killer…right?
No.
Well…isn’t it true you killed my clients loving family member?
Yes.
So you admit that are are killer then?
No…I didn’t admit that.
Well…you just admitted that you did in fact kill my clients son/husband/ brother. So according to your own testimony just a few minutes ago….you admitted are a killer.
Now…Mrs. Collara did you make any after market modifications to your gun?
Yes
Did you make those modifications because you wanted to be a more effective killer and make sure you delivered the kill shot?
No
What specific modification to you make to your rifle?
I installed a Franklin Armory binary trigger on my AR-15.
In order to make you a better killer and it a better instrument of death?
No
Why did you do it then?
Because the high speed and very expensive after market trigger has a crisper break and I can be more accurate with my shot.
Oh…so you did put in some kind of high speed special operations trigger so you could be a more effective killer didn’t you? It wasn’t good enough for you use the trigger that the engineers who designed that gun specifically intended to be used with that particular gun? Because why…it wasn’t a good enough instrument of death for you because you are a committed killer?
Yes…I mean no…I mean yes, I wanted to hit what I was aiming at.
You shot that poor man in the middle of his chest and the hydroponic shock wave cone from the bullet you deliberately fired at his chest area that was traveling at 33000 feet per second exploded his heart and it became just a gooey mess of fluid and muscle and he died instantly…didn’t he?
Yes…I dropped him in his tracks like the sack of shit he was.
Objection your honor. I make a motion to remove Mrs Collara’s inflammatory remarks from the record regarding the false narrative she is trying to spin about the victim in this case who was a God fearing and loving family man.
Motion approved. Let the record so show the victim was a God fearing man who loved his family.
Thank you your honor. Now…Mrs. Collara, with your high speed killing tool that had been modified to be suitable for special operations to use in a war zone, you deliberately killed that God fearing man who loved his family isn’t that true?
No…I didn’t kill him deliberately.
Well…you shot him center mass and caused his heart to be liquified in the hydroponic shock wave cone that travels in front of every one of the bullets you were using. What did you think was going to happen.
I don’t know?
Are you a good shot Mrs. Collura?
No…I am a great shot.
So you could have just wounded him without killing him? You didn’t have to kill him did you by shooting him center mass, did you!
But I was taught to aim for the center mass because that is the most likely target to hit.
Well…with your high speed after market killer trigger and your superior shooting skill, you could have just shot him in the leg…right?
I guess so?
BUT YOU DIDN’T SHOOT THAT POOR VICTIM, WHO WAS A GOD FEARING MAN WHO LOVED AND PROVIDED FOR HIS FAMILY IN HUS LEG…DID YOU! And in fact, the truth is…you murdered him with your special operations combat rifle, isn’t that true?
No.
You have already testified you did. Were you lying now or were you lying then?
I don’t know…neither I guess?
Now…about this after market high speed killing trigger system, which authorized, certified and duly trained armorer or gun smith made this major modification to your killer rifle?
I didn’t take it to an armorer or gun smith. I did it at home myself in my kitchen because it was pretty simple to install.
Oh…I see. Are you a trained armorer?
No
Are you a trained gunsmith.
No
Have you been certified by the Serbian military to work on there odd ball caliber combat killing rifles you favor?
No.
Your honor and ladies and gentlemen of the jury…I rest my case against this admitted killer of a God fearing man who loved his family and who died at the hands of a reckless kitchen trained tinkerer who thinks she knows more about her killing machine than the engineers who designed it and the manufacturing company who built it and brought it to market for this…this gun nut to specifically modify so she be sure and explode that poor man’s heart and cause the rest of his internal organs to partially liquify and be violently displaced as well inside his chest cavity. If she would have just used the factory trigger, she probably would have just hit his leg or missed him entirely. But she didn’t do that did she! This Black Widow made sure she killed him dead…DEAD….DEAD!
Judgement for the plaintiff. Court adjourned.
Joy A Collura says
Wow. You read too much Massad Ayoob stories.
Joy A Collura says
Gary, that is a two percent chance your story could happen … also remember it’s in who you know and money money money and your legal team that dance the dance 💃 in that court room. Sonny can tell you a good real time story about the court room and a Satanist.
Franklin Armory binary trigger is a waste of money and ammo and will probably be outlawed like bump stocks
Gary Olson says
Nahhhh, That scenario is only possible if you are a law enforcement officer and you modify your gun in violation of agency policy that always require issued guns (at least at the federal level) to remain at factory specs without any changes that aren’t specifically authorized by written agency policy. That even includes really little changing the grips. And….if you are found to be “out of policy” you get thrown to the wolves. Same thing for the ammo you shoot in your gun, it has to be specific issued ammo.
The factory triggers on most AR15 platform guns are atrocious, even Sigs, so I am saving up my lunch money to replace all of my Sig rifle with Geissele triggers at once. Or at least those that didn’t come with some form of an “enhanced” trigger. Sig actually puts Geissele triggers in some of their AR15 variants.
https://geissele.com/
Happy New Year! 🎈🎆🎊
Gary Olson says
If the description of the trigger in your rifle says Mil Spec…that’s the code word that means your trigger probably sucks.
Woodsman says
So…there’s a chance?
Gary Olson says
😂
Woodsman says
Objection! Badgering the witness.
Sustained.
Gary Olson says
Do you mean the Black Widow killer with her highly modified special operations weapon of war that was used to murder a God fearing, loving family man in his prime? I withdraw the question.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you are to pretend you didn’t hear that last question even though it is seared into your mind.
charlie says
That Trump has stopped the providing of thousands of sniper rifles and propelled grenades among other warfare items to the Ukraine did not mean he objected to it–only that he expected an investigation into the dealings of his Biden rivals. The Bidens were certainly into some financial greed and gains from their political connections and Trump wanted to expose that and of course the Bidens made up some stories to try to distance themselves. But isn’t this what politics is about–you become one to be a power and to feather your nest–if you are honest you soon have to drop out since the corporations will find a way to squash you if you do not follow the agenda.
Why the hell are we not providing sniper rifles and ammunition to all the American patriots? They will be needing them down the line and instead we are constantly supplying foreign nations with arms. We keep interfering in the affairs of foreign nations where we ought to be taking care of our own.
But the facts are there that billions made in arms provisions to foreign nations. And who gets the profits–those arms manufacturers of course gain the most, the steel companies, the mines and the workers. So Trump would say as every President before him has said it is good business and good for the economy. Who pays for the aid money and these arms and so forth–the tax payer. But I am surprised since the country is so deep in debt, can the Tax Payer afford more debt?
The printing presses will be hot keeping up for the payments–printing more dollars. The interests the feds get is so the bankers get richer and the tax payer makes them fatter. But then you see how the worker is in debt for the rest of his life on a home mortgage, a car, his credit cards, college loans and trying to keep up with the Jonesies, he had become a slave to the system. And Lord have mercy should he or his pet get sick. The doctor might own his or her assets but the bank will always get a cut of what is left –usually the home and car to auction off for their interest of loaning out a debt note. And just to think it all happens with phony money created by a Ponzi scheme organized by world bankers. It keeps on working as long as no one notices but you best hope you are out of debt or near so and have a good sack of beans handy in case you happen to be around when the shit hits the fan.
Well we are a resilient people–warriors that are willing to kill even each other off as we did in the Civil War. We just get our wires crossed once in a while listening to the Political Hacks. Lincoln never was much interested in freeing slaves but he did not want to see the country broken up. I personally think all the slave holders should have been hung but that was never done. Jefferson and Washington were both slave holders–so what can you say there. And now the most of the country is enslaved. Karma is somehow tied in with the Leprechaun.
But most of us who came to this country were not slave owners, and pretty much enslaved ourselves by the system and industrialists. We would not enslave others. But certainly Karma always answers those actions and the country is getting some pay back for its ill deeds of those that we have allowed to do their dirty deeds. The Civil was was part of that pay back, but it continues on.
Now we have people in power doing the English thing of becoming an empire controlling world affairs–not because we should be minding our own business but because some organization wants to milk the third world countries.
Is there a silver lining to this cloud? The clouds are even fake these days–so yes there is a fake silver lining.
Joy A Collura says
Happy. New Year Sonny
We all are on. New chapter on IM
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. I’m not saying that RTS is wrong with his views on wildland firefighter safety…I’m just saying they are aspirational. RTS is telling you how wildland firefighter safety would be in a perfect world. The Woodsman, Ted and I are telling you how wildland firefighter safety is in the real world. And life on the fire line is very much in the real world.
There are good reasons why part of everyone’s job was to keep an eye out for overhead in general and Safety Officers in particular making their way down the line. And then quickly nonverbally passing the warning on to others because we didn’t want them to get in the way of you know…our veni, vidi, vici the freakin’ fire!
And the universal hand sign for, “Heads up…Overhead coming” was to wave the flattened hand with all of your fingers and thumb together in short horizontal strokes right above your crotch. Get it…Overhead? 😂 It was acceptable for women to use the same hand gesture although it definitely loses something in the translation.
Thankfully…most Safety Officers spent most of their time sittin’ around the salamanders sippin’ coffee and bullshittin’ anyone who would listen to them. And the rest of the fire overhead? They expected the fire to be fought in the real world…they just didn’t want it done in front of them so they would have plausible deniability when something invariably went wrong.
The bold wildland firefighters are promoted and the meek are passed over. And after consecutive generations of wildland firefighters being raised that way, more than 100 years in the case of the Silverback Mountain Gorilla…the USFS and whose Standard Operating Procedures permeate throughout the entire wildland firefighting community…you end up with a very bold culture indeed and safety be damned.
And like I just opined a short time below…the question wasn’t whether I colored inside the lines or not because I always did. The question is…where were those lines? I was a very good wildland firefighting soldier who always happily and enthusiastically carried water for our fire gods…until I learned they have feet of clay and now I am conflicted 😐.
Joy A. Collura says
Or what your definition is of a line…
Gary Olson says
Take 2
My reference to coloring inside the lines is a metaphor that conjures up an image of a coloring book for children. What I am referring to without using a metaphor is following all of the principles outlined in the 10, the 18 and LCES, in addition to every other principle of safe and efficient wildland firefighting tactics and strategies that can only be described as fighting fire by following “best practices.”
The specific problem I have with the 10 and the 18, is that they are to specific while being overly broad and repetitive at the same time. Which isn’t a very easy thing to do.
As a matter of fact to get there…it took subsequent generations of committee work piled on top of committee work like layers of slopped on paint to arrive at their current status when they started with a deeply flawed and very 1957ish premise in the first place in the apply named, “Report of Task Force to Recommend Action to Reduce the Chances of Men Being Killed by Burning While Fighting Fire. (Nothing was said about saving the women.)
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5393525.pdf
And don’t blame me for this draft copy, I can’t even find the final (which I have) report anywhere by using the Google Machine.
Followed up by the now equally outdated and succinctly named,
REPORT OF THE FIRE SAFETY REVIEW TEAM, MARCH 1967, A PLAN TO FURTHER REDUCE THE CHANCES OF MEN BEING BURNED WHILE FIGHTING FIRES
https://www.coloradofirecamp.com/fire-origins/1967-introduction.htm
And yes I know…I am shameless while using the Colorado Fire Camp as a reference while trash talking them at the same time. But like I said, there is really good and really bad training out there and even the best isn’t using FLETC approved instructor methodology. And as everyone knows, FLETC is the finest law enforcement training facility in the world…according to them. They don’t say why they are better than the FBI Academy
The problem I have with the current way wildland firefighters are taught is that it is done by the numbers and by rote which is a, “a mechanical or habitual repetition of something to be learned.” I could write an entire chapter on how WF training should be conducted and where the current system fails young people.
And just as a reminder, after I was given what is probably nearly identical introduction to wildland firefighting training (what is commonly referred to as S-110, S-130 and S-190, which just all kinda run together in a cartoon format) in 1974, I was left with the impression that every fire line that was cut needed to be 1.5 times the fuel the fire was burning in.
And when I looked out the window, we were surrounded by mature Ponderosa Pine trees up to 100 feet tall…YIKES! Cut a 150 foot fire line? I sure was glad I was wearing a nice clean U.S. Forest Service uniform and they just wanted me to find nice people to talk to about being safe with their campfire.
As a matter of fact, the current system is so deeply flawed and outdated…they don’t even understand just how bad it is. If I had to sum it up in just one sentence, I would say that current law enforcement training is based on how to train adults and current WF training is based on just the opposite of that. And about 50 years behind current best practices standards because it is so outdated to boot.
Now…that being said, there are some very good instructors out there putting on very some good training. But it is hit or miss without any uniformity and without an appropriate level of oversight without quality control. And even the best WF instructors who are currently presenting the best training aren’t being given access to the most up to date methods and materials.
Training is always the FIRST thing the “agencies” cut during budget shortfalls and after decades of doing just that, especially when the training wasn’t very good and was hopelessly outdated in the first place, WF training can only be described as abysmal when evaluated as a whole.
What makes me such an expert? Well…here are just some of my instructors credentials.
1. I was actively engaged in training as an instructor in both FIRE and law enforcement for about 30 years. I was a law enforcement instructor at the national and interagency level for about half that time which even included teaching the military at Ft. Bliss, Texas.
2. My instructor training includes successfully completing the Law Enforcement Instructor Training Program at FLETC, (Glycolic).
https://www.fletc.gov/training-program/law-enforcement-instructor-training-program
Description: The Law Enforcement Instructor Training Program (LEITP) is designed to provide training in law enforcement instructional skills focused on curriculum development and delivery. Students are required to develop two lesson plans for delivery during the program. One of the lesson plans will be used to deliver a 50 minute practical exercise designed to evaluate your ability to instruct from a lesson plan that you have developed. The LEITP incorporates a variety of instructional methodologies including participative lecture, student-centered learning, demonstrations, role-plays, and presentation laboratories. The program provides students an introduction to presentation skills and curriculum development. The LEITP is a Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers (FLETC) Center Basic (CB) training program.
Prerequisites
Be employed in a law enforcement or law enforcement related position and have been assigned duties that require knowledge of the subject matter.
Be actively engaged in, or expected to be assigned as, a law enforcement instructor for your organization.
Program Curriculum/Syllabus
Ethical Issues in Law Enforcement Training
Principles of Adult Learning
Presentation Skills
Student-Centered Learning
Instructional Systems Design for Law Enforcement
Performance Objectives Development
Testing and Assessment
Training Tools and Technology
Lesson Plan Development
Instructional Methodologies
Introduction to Presentation Graphics
Evaluating Laboratories and Practical Exercises
Classroom Management Issues
Exam – Must score 70% or above
7-10, 30 & 50 Minute Presentations
3. And the highlights of my training duties came when I was name requested by FLETC Staff to participate with the course developmental committee that developed the following Advanced FLETC training;
Backcountry Tactical Tracking Training Program
https://www.fletc.gov/backcountry-tactical-tracking-training-program/backcountry-tactical-tracking-training-program
Advanced ARPA, which I don’t see being offered on the current FLETC training schedule, but here is the basic course to give you an idea of what the “Advanced” course included, plus.
https://www.fletc.gov/training-program/archeological-resources-protection-training-program-xp
4. In addition, I attended and successfully completed both the FLETC Uniformed Police Training Program and the Criminal Investigators Training Program in addition to at least a dozen other advanced FLETC training courses. at the Glynco, Artesia, Pinal Air Park and the Davis-Monthan Air Force Base when the latter two facilities were still operational back in the day,
I know good (appropriate) training when I take it, give it or review the syllabus for it.
Gary Olson says
That’s it man….that’s the answer. Excellent, standardized, and consistent training is the bedrock foundation to everything mankind does well. And when training is done and is dependent on a systemic patchwork of hit or miss efforts in addition to complex and highly fluid situational variables (e.g. excellent instructors teaching from excellent lesson plans) it adds up to a broken system with random, periodic and unnecessary catastrophic failures.
And for decades now…wildland firefighter agency managers have accepted those random, periodic and unnecessary catastrophic failures as simply the cost of doing business.
And so when those failures invariably happen, they excuse them in a variety of ways and move on as quickly as possible because they know that a thorough and complete review of what went wrong and why it went wrong would reveal all of their failures and the corrupt Faustian bargain they made with the budget Devil.
Gary Olson says
Thanks JD, I made a rookie mistake by starting to break my comment into sections without saving it in a word program first.
Gary Olson says
And I may be assuming to much with my assumption that all of you know who does WF FIRE training.
All WF FIRE instructors that I know about or have ever known about come from within the rank and file of employees or managers and supervisors of agencies who are selected at random based primarily on their availability and willingness to be instructors and their supervisors/managers/agencies attitude about letting their day jobs (the job they were hired ostensibly to perform) to go by the wayside for a given period of time.
And of course, at least in theory, those “volunteer” instructors have the appropriate level of knowledge, skills, abilities, experience and education. to be instructors for the subject matter they are teaching. And…it is best if they have a natural ability to effectively be able to be able to verbally (and otherwise) effectively communicate to the students they are trying to teaching.
And the reason I say “natural” ability, is because they never receive ANY formal training on how to be good and effective instructors. Some do and are…and some don’t and aren’t.
But once again, that is rarely the deciding factor in whether they are instructors or not, it is based more on their availability and willingness to be an instructor. And it is often a specific job any given person has that determines whether they will become an instructor by default. As a hotshot squad boss and later crew boss…I automatically became a hotshot instructor.
And once I became the Forest Dispatcher and Interagency FIRE Operations Coordinator, i automatically became a Forest and Region wide FIRE instructor on some subjects I literally knew nothing about and never had either the time or opportunity (or interest) to learn about them.
For example, my biggest epic failure as an instructor was trying to teach others how to set up, read, maintain and operate Remote Automatic Weather Stations (RAWS). They are placed out in the middle of nowhere in the forest on a semi permanent basis to provide the data via satellite in order to get more accurate and specific weather data for a given area.
Or they may be set up in advance of where large and complex prescribed burns are planned in advance of, during, and after the burn to reduce the chances the deliberately ignited fires will go to hell in a hand basket and burn down a big chunk of the forest or a nearby town.
If you accidentally stumbled on to one in the middle of nowhere, you would probably think it is satellite or other UFO just happened to land at that spot. So…given my grasp of mathematical principles, I was pretty much like a monkey trying to have sexual intercourse with a football when it came to my tenure as a RAWS instructor.
It was an ugly period during my career. It was pretty much the same thing when I was told to be a helper and back up instructor with the Santa Fe National Forest Assistant Fire Management Officer (Les Buchanan) teach Fire Behavior which is a mathematically based skill set that is part science, part art and part luck, or at least have the ability to extrapolate accurate conclusions from the available and predicted conditions of dozens of variable. Les was a brilliant nationally recognized Fire Behavior Analyst and once again, I was like that monkey trying to @#$& that football. It was ugly. Oh…and tye only reason the whole RAWS thing wasn’t a complete disaster is because Les had the lead and I was once again just his assistant. Les was brilliant with that stupid RAWS stuff as well.
I have a really poignant and (I can’t think of the right descriptive word or term right now and I need the Woodsman’s help) “Yeah…that figures and really sucks” story to tell as part of my “True Story” series that has been hanging since way back when while TWARE and I were going back and forth on control burns. And now that I am working on my book again…I will work on publishing that story. So all of you can say…”Yeah…that figures and really sucks!” Kinda a “Murphy’s Law” thing.
“Murphy’s law is a popular adage that states that “things will go wrong in any given situation, if you give them a chance,” or more commonly, “whatever can go wrong, will go wrong.” A number of variants on the rule have been formulated, as have several corollaries.”
So who creates the FIRE lesson plans who updates the existing FIRE lesson plans? I dunno 🤷♂️? But if I had to guess…I would say nobody does.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. Being an instructor is a really, really, really hard thing to do even if you are good at it. Public speaking isn’t an easy thing to do, just you know…FYI. I did it…but I really didn’t want to do it, but to sometimes get from here to there…it came as part of the job and “other duties as assigned.”
IF you wanted to get ahead by chasing the grade and that was the one constant thing with me during my career. I guess you could say I was a whore? There was never any question of what I was, the only question was….how much were they going to pay me for doing the things they wanted me to do for them?
Gary Olson says
Oh…but I will give you a heads up regarding what I think it is like to be a Burn Boss of a planned prescribed fire.
It is like somebody handing you a revolver with one (1) bullet loaded in a six bullet cylinder (the typical revolver has a six bullet. cylinder, but there are some with five (5). seven (7), or even as many as nine (9).
And then telling you that they are going to spin the cylinder you have to put the revolver to your head and pull the trigger once.(which is commonly called Russian Roulette).
And every time you give the green light to ignite the prescribed fire again…you have to once again put the revolver to your head and pull the trigger after the cylinder has been randomly spun.
And every time you don’t blow your brains out…you get to keep living. That’s your reward. You get to keep your job and come in again the next day because you are still alive.
And if you just happen to hit on the chamber with the live round one of those times…well your life and career as you knew it is over.
Sound like fun? Now you know why all FIRE managers who have a normal instinct for survival would prefer to go their entire careers without ever playing Russian Roulette by green lighting a prescribed fire ignition. And to force most of them to do it…you have to beat them like they are rented mules.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OuGSXflBoWU
Gary Olson says
Oh…and even if you are a great instructor who does a great job of instructing, it is almost always a thankless job except for when you finally shut up and let the students who you are trying to teach go on break, go to lunch, or leave for the day and then they silently thank you inside their heads.
Gary Olson says
Except for when you have students like Joy…she probably buttonholes all of her instructors with additional comments or questions so that they don’t even get to go to the bathroom, get lunch or get home at a reasonable hour. 😂
Joy A Collura says
I am training to be an instructor this year so I can see how it feels to be on the other side so I know both sides as a student and instructor as I push forward. I cannot speak for all instructors but there was a few who stated I intimidate them with my Wildland Fire knowledge and history of it. I am not in this to intimidate so I signed up to learn to teach and instruct to see how they come to that conclusion especially one of the top in the weather field said watch out world because if this housewife hiker can fix my software glitch and I am the best of the best, step aside he said because he said that is my future. Odd thing I got an email for precourse work and I did it but my instructor was on the YHFire…now that’s a small world…I am home Gary recovering from an injury…fun huh. My gosh it was great spending time with you on Christmas 🎄 (hee hee) even if it was your video out of breathe 👍
Gary Olson says
Okay…just one more random thought on the subject of training. And I hate to be the guy who always says law enforcement training is so great but FIRE training really sucks.
But the fact is by comparison to FIRE training…law enforcement training is really great and FIRE training sucks. And of course there’s a really good reason for that…money.
But that isn’t the most important reason, the most important reason is because a succession of top U.S. Forest Service managers like Shawna Legarza have taken the easy way out as they have followed the path of least resistance.
And now to FIX it, they would have to admit they (as an agency and WF community writ large) have done just about everything wrong for decades now, And they want to hit the reset button and start all over with one giant do-over.
Sonny actually instinctively knew what the problem is and he not only correctly identified the problem, but he told us exactly how to fix it many years ago…many times.
But everyone including me just ignored him. Most of you ignored him because you didn’t know he was right…I ignored him because his instinctive and correct solution isn’t feasible and will never probably happen because the WF agency managers, primarily the U.S. Forest Service, lack the will to fight in Congress for it.
The American people would probably support his idea if somebody just took the time to explain the problem to them. Because right now, the American people don’t even know there’s a problem, much less that the problem could be fixed for what in the big scheme of things would be a rounding error in the national budget.
If they were to hire me as an outside consultant, I could fix the problem for them by writing a white paper proposal that would consist of a single sentence.
“Okay…from now on we are going to conduct FIRE training based on mimicking Law Enforcement training as closely as we can but we will change key words where it is appropriate to do so, e.g., we will change “gun” to the appropriate wildland firefighting too, since there isn’t any need to reinvent the wheel so to speak. (Okay…it was one really long sentence, but you probably get the idea).
Additional details to follow.
Gary Olson says
Part 1,
My reference to coloring inside the lines is a metaphor that conjures up an image of a coloring book for children. What I am referring to without using a metaphor is following all of the principles outlined in the 10, the 18 and LCES, in addition to every other principle of safe and efficient wildland firefighting tactics and strategies that can only be described as fighting fire by following “best practices.”
The specific problem I have with the 10 and the 18, is that they are to specific while being overly broad and repetitive at the same time. Which isn’t a very easy thing to do.
As a matter of fact to get there…it took subsequent generations of committee work piled on top of committee work like layers of slopped on paint to arrive at their current status when they started with a deeply flawed and very 1957ish premise in the first place in the apply named, “Report of Task Force to Recommend Action to Reduce the Chances of Men Being Killed by Burning While Fighting Fire. (Nothing was said about saving the women.)
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5393525.pdf
And don’t blame me for this draft copy, I can’t even find the final (which I have) report anywhere by using the Google Machine.
Followed up by the now equally outdated and succinctly named,
REPORT OF THE FIRE SAFETY REVIEW TEAM, MARCH 1967, A PLAN TO FURTHER REDUCE THE CHANCES OF MEN BEING BURNED WHILE FIGHTING FIRES
https://www.coloradofirecamp.com/fire-origins/1967-introduction.htm
Gary Olson says
Oh no. It wouldn’t take my comment because I had to many links in it and so I had to break it down into 3 parts and now I have lost the other two. I just spent at least a couple of hours writing that comment, there is no way I can reproduce it and I was on a roll.
Maybe it will eventually come out of “moderation.” I am devastated because everything I type out is so very important for everyone to be at least given the opportunity to read.
Bummer…man.
Gary Olson says
I will email JD, maybe he can find it…somewhere?
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. Can you tell that I have started working on my book again now that I have successfully relocated to be near world class medical facilities? Well I am. And I am still following my Standard Operating Procedure of publishing key concepts here on the thread so you won’t have to wait for my book to come out to have access to my words of wisdom. So…your welcome.
Man…I can’t believe I lost most of that comment. In just that one comment…I outlined how to fix everything that is wrong with the current wildland firefighter training program. Double bummer.
Gary Olson says
And can you tell that I am now apolitical (because the Democrats have pissed me off as much as Trump has) and I have mostly cleaned up my potty mouth? Well…I am and I have…mostly. I shot my TV the other day with. a Federal .40 Hydra-Shok and had to buy a new TV. I told the police when they came by that I heard the shot also but I couldn’t figure out where it came from either.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and I bet you noticed that I am following good OPSEC now by not revealing where I have relocated to as my new base of operations?
I mean…C’mon people, Joy has apparently gotten some death threats or at least they inferred death threats. YIKES,! And we all know she is tougher, smarter, better armed and I better shot than I am.
Gary Olson says
And speaking of death and this is really getting down in the weeds. But I’m sure it took an insider to notice the detail on the cartoon Death Head I posted the other day from the old WF training?
Not only did someone reproduce a Death Head complete with crossbones and flames…but they put a Bullard hard hat on top of the skull. I mean…that is classic attention to detail.
Back in the day, a WF was very cool if they wore either an aluminum short brim or round brim Bullard (name brand) hard hat with the ridges on top of it.
You couldn’t buy aluminum Bullard hard hats even in my day because they had already gone to plastic ones as every other manufacturer had. That was probably because of safety reasons (like in lightning storms) and insurance liability. But we didn’t pay any attention to that nonsense.
The only way to get an aluminum one was to dig through the old fire caches in out of the way places, or find one at a garage sale, flea market or junk store.
Or…have it issued to you one like I was when I first started in 1974 and then I just kept it to use again the next year when i left the Prescott and went on to the Mighty Coconino.
All of the GMIHC were wearing plastic Bullards. And I immediately noted that both Marsh and Steed were wearing red ones whereas everyone else wore black ones. I didn’t need a different colored hard hat to tell everyone I was in charge once I became crew boss. All they had to do was look at how I carried myself and my command presence and they immediately knew who was calling the shots on that crew. Yep, still got it…hotshot crew boss hubris.
There were some giant A-hole Overhead who had their aluminum Bullards chromed. And your name would go down down in hotshot folklore if you managed to steal a chrome dome and put a giant Pulaski hole in it while crushing a good portion of it at the same time.
You never knew a one way conversation about hard hats could be so fascinating or informative did you? Don’t even get me started on writing about Whites or I won’t get anything done for the rest of tonight and most of tomorrow.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing…Bullards are by far far the most common hard hat worn by wildland firefighters and the difference between the aluminum and plastic hardhats was more than just style, although that was most of it.
Those damn plastic hardhats are much heavier than the aluminum ones and after shifts of to 36-48 hours long (at least on the first shift of a campaign fire) that extra weight can make a difference on your neck. Especially if you have a pencil neck…which isn’t one of my problems.
Plus…the plastic ones just look goofy as all get out. The best way I can describe the difference is by seeing the difference between how a red neck hillbilly White Trailer Trash cracker like me wears a cap and how either inner city youth or Japanese men visiting the Grand Canyon (and other places in Merida, but mostly the Grand Canyon) were their caps.🧢 Everything is EXAGGERATED on the plastic Bullards.
Gee…I hope none of that was racist or xenophobic? If it was that certainly wasn’t my intention and I sincerely apologize for my poor choice of words.
Gary Olson says
That should be ‘Merica.
‘Mer·i·ca
/ˈmerəkə,ˈmərəkə/
nounHUMOROUS•US
America (used especially to emphasize qualities regarded as stereotypically American, such as materialism or fervent patriotism).
“over here in ‘Merica we do what we want”
Woodsman says
Gary,
Thanks for the links. I’ve now read 2 USFS safety reviews from 1957 & 1967 that were both apparently meant to address the issue of firefighter fatalities by being burned on wildfires. It’s now almost year 2020. Since 63 years have elapsed since the first of your 2 studies you posted links to, and we are still not only continuing to lose firefighters by being burned while working on the fire, in 2013 we lost almost an entire type 1 hotshot crew, what seems to be the problem?
If your answer is that you think we need to form a committee and publish a study, I think I’m going to lose my mind…
Woodsman says
And…if someone comes in here and claims it’s “inevitable” I’m going ape shit up in here… (exaggeration for effect, not really going to happen. I’m just going to laugh at you & judge you as one with superficial intellect, unable to think with an open mind) 🙂
Gary Olson says
JD just needs to recover my lost post because I explain it all in detail and give specific examples. But the bottom line is this. Most WF training mostly sucks.
Oh…and because of hotshot hubris. Specifically hotshot crew boss hubris.
Cool me down because I am hot enough tonight to be @#$&% and I am on a roll!
Gary Olson says
And all joking aside, of course I don’t really have the answer to that complex question other than most WF training mostly sucks. Some is great…most isn’t. And there isn’t enough uniformity, standardization or oversight in any of it. In addition to of course hotshot (crew boss, mostly) hubris and the bold WF culture that has been painstakingly developed over more than the last 100 years.
But…that being said, I would START with the three most important things that are the cornerstone and foundation for everything literally everyone does…whether it is commercial fence building or open heart surgery.
1. Training
2. Training
3. Training
And not by either making new WF safety lists to learn by rote or adding to the ones that are already in use.
Woodsman says
While I’m patiently waiting for your post to be recovered:
From the official USFS report on the 1966 Loop fire where 10 El Cariso hotshots were burned to death; here are the conclusions:
“CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS
Conclusions
Overall action from discovery to final control of the Loop Fire was generally good. Included in this action were some outstanding events in the evacuation of hospital patients, the rescue of the survivors of the Chimney Canyon accident and the coordination of a number of agencies involved in control of the fire and rescue operations.
From all that can be determined at this time, there was no evidence of negligence, disobedience or carelessness in the Loop Fire control operation based on present standards and practices.”
Sound familiar? Feet of clay indeed.
Gary Olson says
Okay, we will definitely include deliberate, sustained, criminal, outrageous, blatant, fraudulent lies and deception, etc. After Action Reports Of Disaster Fires engineered primarily by the U.S. Forest Service at the highest levels to our short list of why things don’t appear to have gotten any better?
And just FYI…the original hotshot body count from the official report (which you must be referring to) is incorrect which took me a long time to figure out. I think it might be because two more El Cariso Hotshots died later from their burns at the hospital…I guess?
In addition…most of the rest of the crew suffered severe burns to varying degrees depending on where they were at in the crew line as they tried to scramble out of the death chute.
Although I do think the Loop Fire Investigative Report is in a category all by itself for all of the above reasons and a bunch more. I’m pretty sure they never imagined the rise of the Goggle Machine?
But heck, apparently the authors of the Battlement Creek, South Canyon and even Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster didn’t either…I guess? It’s either that or they get very high marks for brazenness and they just don’t care what we or anyone else thinks of them…I guess?
Gary Olson says
And if JD can’t see my comment on his machine just sitting patiently waiting ti be moderated I will try my best to recreate it. But I really can’t promise anything because I was on a tear. It would be like asking Michelangelo to reproduce David because the cleaning person accidentally knocked it over and broke off his…some body parts. Michelangelo could try I’m sure…but there could only be one David…am I right.?
I mean…that is just how insightful my comment on why the very bedrock foundation of WF training is so deeply flawed and why if it is not THE problem, why it definitely is at the top of my short list,
Bill says
Merry Christmas everyone!
Joy A Collura says
Merry Christmas Bill.
I’m on my moms tablet.
Long travels..
Not near my email or blog for a few weeks.
Rest for me.
Charlie says
On Christmas day when James Lovell rounded the Moon, he said Please be informed there is a Santa Claus but it was astronaut Walter Schirra the first to use Santa Claus for a code word while on the Mercury 8 mission to refer to extraterrestrial craft. So you can truly believe in Santa Claus because the astronauts are at the top of the list of America’s finest heroes– they will not lie to you even if they have to speak in code.
For those that make light of extraterrestrial beings you might want to do some research on the revelations of some people you would be highly unlikely to challenge the veracity of their statements and revelations.
John Podesta, former chief of staff for Bill Clinton and advisor to Barack Obama stated “I am skeptical about many things, including the notion that government always knows best and that people can’t be trusted with the truth. The time to pull the curtain back on the alien presence on the Moon subject is long overdue. We have statements from the most credible sources. Those in possession to know about a fascinating phenomenon, the nature of which is to be determined.”
Dr John Brandenburg at a top secret viewing with Admirals and Generals present stated we were watching what appeared to be a firefight on the Moon. A General turned to me and said “Where do you think they are from”. I replied I don’t know. “I have heard they are from 40 light years from here.”,.
I pulled this information from a documentary titled ALIEN MOON., something I had found on the Tubi free documentaries. Scientists know that the moon is about 3.3 density while Earth is at 5.5. The Moon can only be hollow at that density and if it were not, it would not be able to sustain that perfect orbit.
But I won’t ruin your documentary viewing and I have a feeling that some will start to believe in Santa Claus after the viewing.
You there will have the talks of a number of influential people–none are kooks–not even Carl Sagan, nor the geologist that taught geology to the astronauts–Farouk El-Baz and others involved in these Moon missions.
Joy, you might enjoy that one–and send the info to your Mom–I know she would appreciate.
joy a collura says
yes my mom is the sci-fi gal not me.
Merry Christmas Sonny
Robert the Second says
If these Govt Agencies claim to have this much information on everyone and everything, then they would certainly have relevant YH Fire data as well
An effective alternative to mass surveillance | William Binney | TEDxBerlinSalon
But nobody saw this coming …
( https://youtu.be/LufSe8-50-s )
Living in a surveillance state: Mikko Hypponen at TEDxBrussels
( https://youtu.be/lHj7jgQpnBM )
Sobering
Joy A Collura says
Are you setting the stage to a future post of mine
I prefer to talk next about cell phone records of Willis…or the destruction to a home by loading damaged dozer on lo boy trailer…maybe Donut could fill in some areas there…
How did the dozer get damaged?
Have a Merry Christmas world 🌎
For Gary: 🎄🎁☃️🌧
Joy A Collura says
Oh yeah … Donut let go of Yarnell and the memories … he just makes new kinds to honor the men:
https://youtu.be/koPWspJRz9M
He told me it’s my job to do this…
Job and a Joy don’t match
Unless you mean the one from the Bible…then I always been the female version.
I have a question … how come politics play so much in the Wildland Fire Industry?
joy a collura says
a pal of yours Sonny sent me this:
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/there-are-more-300-us-military-bases-possible-toxic-forever-chemical-contamination
Hundreds of military installations have either known or likely water contamination caused by runoff from firefighting foam used in response to vehicle and aircraft accidents, according to the Environmental Working Group.
“Of these sites, 138 have not been previously identified on EWG’s map of known PFAS contamination at military bases, civilian airports and industrial sites,” according to a Tuesday new release.
“In addition, 42 of these sites were not included on a list of 401 locations the Pentagon gave to Congress of active and former installations where PFAS contamination was known or suspected.”
It would also require that military firefighters are testing for PFAS levels in their blood, as the chemicals do not break down over time and are known to build up in the human body.
joy a collura says
https://www.ewg.org/interactive-maps/2019-pfas-crash-training-military-sites/map/
Charlie says
I am glad to see the media is doing a little to expose the Veteran experiments–so many of us had been used as lab rats including put next to Hydrogen Bombs, various vaccines to see their effects, use of agent orange, LSD experiments by CIA undercover operatives, depleted Uranium bullets, and the list goes on. The fire foam is a new one, but the warriors that fight the fires are more exposed even than veterans. Yet the families suffer as well since the illness extends to everyone–caring for sick veterans is not easy and even the families have to contend with polluted waters and whatever ill effects these chemicals cause.
One of the major problems is that the chemical corporations have put millions into the propaganda to make people believe these chemicals are harmless, yet with all the hundred years and billions put into fighting cancer and heart issues the disease rates have only been increased. Well what do you expect when these things are touted as harmless and dumped in thousands of gallons on residential areas such as we saw in Yarnell with the subsequent drastic increase in illness and death in the village. But what the hell, your friendly Forest Service and Wild Fire Manager will tell you the orders are going to help save your town and are harmless to you and the environment regardless of what happens in the aftermath of his toxic work. But he believes it, or at least acts like he does. I do not know how he sleeps well if he has any conscience at all–but then the doctors have chemicals to put you to sleep with temporarily unlike the retardants that work on a permanent basis.
So, thanks for the article–it shows that a few are beginning to admit tot he disastrous effects of these retardant chemicals and health. The Feds might even come to realize that the Firefighter deserves some financial reimbursement for the ongoing and eventual destruction of his health from being exposed to these toxins.
Of course it will take a Senator or Representative that is not bought into office by these giant chemical corporations to get the law proposed and slim chance unless the Media steps up that it will be ratified. A couple New Mexico Senators have reintroduced the proposal for Uranium miners that had years after the 75 date–and some do try. But getting something through Congress is tough when you know the corporations buy them in. It is not that the Corporations pay, but the tax payer but the corporations do not want it publicized that their shit is poison to the people and environment.
We have to depend upon Investigative Media and small similar Media, Internet and word of mouth to do anything. But if enough people become knowledgeable of the toxic problems and even hidden chemicals in retardant dumps some of these politicos will have to get off their ass and propose something to remedy the damages.
Sometimes I think it is like the man standing in front of a tank we saw in China–small wonder the tank driver did not squash him but I wonder what beating that fellow got afterward and if he survived. Only in America might we escape such despotism, yet we saw much subterfuge even at a death coverup at Yarnell.
Charlie says
Thanks to Joy on that article. I would hope on her site she would start putting up some UFO photos. You might say this is crazy stuff–or even that it is anti-religious, but what if these UFO’s are really government made? You can always use that as a front to save your religious beliefs but I have to believe that men like Buzz Aldrin, Edgar Mitchell, Gordon Cooper, Scott Carpenter, Clark McClellan, Niel Armstrong, James Lovell of Apollo 8 mission, Frank Borman, and lord have mercy even Russian astronauts Viktor Afanasyev and his partner either witnessed unexplainable craft dogging them in flight or in the case of Clark McClellan who in a supervisory position had monitored 650 NASA launchings and witnessed a craft in orbit right behind the shuttle with what appeared to be an 8 to 9 ft tall being talking to the astronauts tethered to the Shuttle –with what he says are six other witnesses–then I am beginning to believe there is more to this UFO-alien talk than our CIA and Army black ops under the highest National Secrecy clearance want us to know. I do think there are con artists out there trying to make a buck or get famous by their stories, but these American heroes now retired from NASA do not need the notoriety or the money by risking their reputations by putting out false statements.
I am more inclined to believe in their later years they want the public to know exactly what their tax dollars paid for–information they did not get about many things in space that those men knew, encountered and were ordered to keep their mouths shut about. Add to that the many hundreds of pilots and thousands of other reputable reports and one has to think about this–and why are our moon photos vetted, why are the astronauts sworn like your wild land fire fighter to keep their mouths shut? Why is the tax payer that puts these lunks in office so treated as nobodies?
Well I have been watching some UFO activity that arrives from out of Mexico and comes into the states at night traveling north from Juarex-EL Paso but skirting the White Sands Missile Range while some accompany some set in a fixed position for hours and some go almost directly west. That was the story on five last night. The one was stationary for some time I got a photo with this new 83x Nikon Coolpix 900P camera. These must be huge since when I can’t bring it up all the way to 83X or I get only a part of the craft. But what I have is circular and it has a dark inner ring so I do not thing I am looking at an orb per se but the bottom of a circular craft. I tried to make a video when it started going north and also of the one going West. I did get the one going west when it stopped on what appeared to be the Florita Range then the damn thing came straight back to look like it was going to come directly over my trailer. I did get a photo on its way back but me, cameras, and the new fumbling around in the dark technology are tough. The think blacked out just after my photo half way between my location and the Floritas where it landed and reversed. Yet looking at what I have is amazing and unexplained.
Well what might be interesting around El Paso and Juarez? That is one hell of a big testing base and Holloman Air Force with all the testing and technical works around Alamogordo as one Physicists told me when I was logging 16 miles up the mountain in the Cloudcroft area–you would not live in this town if you knew what was here. Well I don’t live there now but over the mountain some 90 miles as the crow flies from the town, though pretty near (about 27 miles from the base boundary that I believe stretches some 400 miles north near Albuquerque. I do know the Army has tunnels into the mountain near that edge–maybe they have a few MRE’s stored there and some ammo since the entrances will allow tank entry.
I though well the Mexicans are not real happy with the US so wondered why the government might be hanging in the sky above Mexico? They do have jet fighters and missiles on them but nothing like US and there is one famous photo where their jets a few years back when we were more friendly with Mexico were using American technology and had turned in photos of 11 circular craft following them on a drug surveillance job. Radar detected those yet only the infrared cameras on board were able to photograph them. That event was released by the Mexican Defense Department and on Sunday it is still sometimes brought up on Mexican TV by Jaime Maussan–long time researcher of UFO activity and with a long running Mexican UFO program on Sundays.
Juarez is the murder capital of the world right now. In the past 11 years they have averaged 1357 deaths per year–by August of this year there were already 889 deaths–mostly drug war related. 2010 had 3,042 deaths, more than the twin towers that year and 2,658 the year before–so looks like the killing has come down some. I used to go there fairly regularly importing agates out of Mexico by pick up. But now, not advisable place to hang out. Conversely right across the border in El Paso–the safest place in the USA–they even saved my life at the trauma center–only an average of 16 homicides per year over the past 11 and only 5 the year that 3042 died right across the border. Are the UFO’s looking at that and the Missile Range activities? Your guess is as good as mine.
But the reason for the drug wars is mostly hard drugs that here people can only get at a high cost from doctors if they will even prescribe them. Those bastards killing their own kind and anyone in their way for selling drugs can be stopped in their tracks–it is all about poor people wanting to survive or get rich.. And mostly the gringos are the problem since they are the market.
A drug addict will go to all lengths to get his drug–when will we realize this is just another government scam sort of like the retardant scam? Those amphetamines and cocaine supplies can be offered freely by our tax dollars much much cheaper than the cost of drug enforcement costs and prison costs by simply providing the addict with his drug. It will stop the killing and stop the drug cartels since there will be no market or their suspect drugs will no longer be purchased when they are provided free. Folks, most of these addicts can not help themselves–and we need to own up to providing drugs and treatment facilities where the addict can find safe areas to either continue his addiction for a time or find treatment.
I have counseled and managed a half way house for drug addicts–I am not a drug addict nor ever have been but I do know the horrors these people live and the horrors they put their families and friends into. The solution is not spending billions on drug enforcement and ruining people’s lives by making felons out of them and incarcerating them for long periods only to see them return to their habit.
Despite what law enforcement wants you to believe and the billions they receive to “fight the drug war” that only increases in volume despite their efforts and what the prison system loves–like the fire fighting system–it can be remedied but truth needs to be out there. Education is freedom from false ideas and ways and simple methods can be taken to stop the drug war insanity.
So now you can add me to the Astronaut nuts that say they were dogged, that there were beings on the moon before us, that UFO’s and aliens are real. Trump constantly rails against aliens across the border. But I have photographic proof despite my inept camera ways and I think i was even able to date the times of the photos correctly. This thing has a GPS as well once I figure it out.
I do have a mind to visit the Las Cruces Sun News–a place I am well known as the guy that was shot by his dog. Now it will even get crazier when I show the photos and a small news paper might just print the photos. People just do not look up–but for some reason these things do not appear in daylight at least yet–I will keep this camera handy and if they do I hope to get a big alien smile.
Happy trails and don’t accept any UFO rides–they do nasty things to humans according to some very reputable reports. I do believe however–there are not that many of these thing around so your chances of abduction are slim.
Firefighting?–can you imagine having one of these things that can deliver a half million gallons of sea water at a time in a few seconds and can sit and observe a forest for hours, days or months by beings that might not even be biological entities? It would guarantee a wild fire control system without retardant.
Robert the Second says
Two Aussie Firefighters Die During Wildfires
Two Australian volunteer firefighters were killed during the nation’s current wildfire emergency when their apparatus struck a tree and rolled off the road. Firehouse online – December 20, 2019
( https://www.firehouse.com/lodds/news/21118954/two-australian-firefighters-killed-during-new-south-wales-wildfires?utm_source=FH+Newsday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS191220029&o_eid=5668G1183545G6J&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C5668G1183545G6J&oly_enc_id=5668G1183545G6J )
“The volunteers were in a fire truck travelling in a convoy near the town of Buxton on Thursday night when the vehicle hit a tree and rolled off the road, the New South Wales (NSW) Rural Fire Service (RFS) said.
Earlier on Thursday, three firefighters were injured with burns after their truck was overrun by a bushfire in the same area. Additionally, two firefighters were treated by paramedics for smoke inhalation.
Fire and Rescue NSW duty commander Kernin Lambert called the blaze “a horrendous fire.”
“Around the Balmoral village, we had two fire fronts come together and they merged. We were experiencing firestorm-type conditions,” he told Australian broadcaster ABC on Friday.
And then there is this author’s fauz pax – “ come together and they merged ” tautology and maybe they can add these to their list ( http://www.pilinutpress.com/EditingReference/Tautologies.html )
“Lambert said crews faced winds over 100 kilometres per hour with 60-metre-high fire fronts so fierce they sucked the oxygen out of the air.”
Pretty serious bushfire conditions Down Under and may these Vollies RiP
joy a collura says
Gary L Olson is a pure artist.
Keep being the “Guiding Light” sir
Charlie says
Here is Tex’s notification sent to CDC: Hopefully it will spark an interest in the Yarnell extreme count of dead and ill after the Yarnell inundation by retardant.
CDC contact by email as follows—
It is my understanding that you investigate environmental deaths concerning American citizens. My concern is about the people in Yarnell, Arizona, because in my studies concerning the aftermath of two wild fires–the Yarnell Wildfire of June, 2013 that killed the 19 Granite Mountain Hot Shot Crew and the Tenderfoot Fire of June, 2016. The aftermath of those two fires has seen the population originally of 645 to be reduced by about 200 deaths withing 6.5 years. Many are sick as well. I myself with a heart attack in 2015 and several since.
Because the town was heavily inundated and surrounded by many loads of the Phos Chek retardant and trade secret hidden chemicals, I believe obviously related to the skewed illness and death rate of the Yarnellites. I do know that phosphates have killed hundreds of thousands of fish especially in Florida from mine pollutant leaks an that of 20,000 killed in the Fall River, Oregon incident from only about a 1000 gallons of retardant.
The average per 650 residents should be about 6 deaths per year for USA. Here we are looking at something around 30 per year. Granted these are deaths are for mostly elderly such as myself at Yarnell, yet many are in their 50’s and souls I knew to be robust individuals before the inundation of Yarnell with the retardants.
I also know that legionnaires disease was found to be specific to elderly and those with taxed immune systems.
If this has not been an experiment then it should be looked at closely to see that these retardants are kept far from residential areas if they must be used. It is well known that they have created ocean dead zones from the phosphates and nitrates that feed the red algae. But very little has been done to see what these chemical are doing to health.
For more reference there are excellent posts on the matter Yarnell Hill Fire Investigative Media Chapter 29 and Joy Collura’s website (friend and knowledge of all deceased. Thanks for your interest, Tex Gilligan
Charlie says
For those not familiar with CDC, they are one of our public health protection agencies employed by the Federal Government to look into problems of health involving disease and environment and related issues.
I was amazed to find they had even published a paper on how to protect yourself in case of a Zombie Apocalypse. Few realize there is technology to turn people–possibly masses into Zombies and where there is technology to use such, we know there is always a Hitler psychotic type that may eventually attain and use it. After all, Truman had no qualms using the Atom Bomb and Hitler did sacrifice millions of his own to try to attain his goals.
My understanding is there are at least three ways it can be done. The Zombies are made by poisonous herbs and poisonous aquatic life extractions. Technology uses radiation ray techniques and biological methods through virus spreading. This stuff is real and documented in people actually attacking and eating their own kind–a lady decapitating and eating parts and the brain of her baby–a man in Florida attacking a homeless guy and eating his face away stopped only by a cop’s bullet and of course documented Zombies in Haiti. So yes, there are some very advanced technologies and possibilities of virus outbreaks that are real when people such as CDC have concerns enough to address them.
charlie says
Perhaps my endeavors to understand why officials and even the public to deny the fact evident concerning the deaths of 19 young hot shots at Yarnell may be in vain–but human curiosity and desire makes me want to understand how something so blatant as the reason for those deaths not being an accident.
So looking at other government agencies might give us a clue. One thing is the military There is probably not a single one of us whom have served that would not return and serve this nation again if we were threatened here at home by invading foreign forces. We would, along with most citizens, just as the early revolutionists under George Washington did, be willing to sacrifice it all for the protection of our freedom and rights that this country has even at their diluted state thanks to Bush and others they are in today. Most of us are still loyal to the country and see that the New World Order thing is no more than an extension of what Hitler wanted and attempted causing the loss of millions of lives. Lives were a high loss for that attempt, and the new attempts are still loosing lives at planned and instigated wars such as Afghanistan, Iraq and the ongoing Terrorist thing. The constitution in the New World Order thing is out the window and as Bush once said–it has no relevance.
Certainly to a New World Order Charter it has no relevance yet we as Americans have seen so many millions of heroes defend the flag with their lifeblood and for which it stands that we see much relevance to the freedoms the Constitution and its Bill of Rights protections to citizens guarantees us. Certainly after the Twin Tower ordeal the Patriot Act (what brainwasher made up the term?) we had our freedoms minimized right to the edge of martial law that I saw at Yarnell right after Fema took over in the aftermath of the fire. The press was censored, the roads were blocked for months allowing only green carded residents to use State Highway 89, and even mum orders were officially given to firefighters involved and even individuals present that heard and witnessed things. Joy and I were not censored–we were not state employees other than we were empoyed as all citizens duly paying our state taxes—and there are many on fuel, groceries, paychecks and so on.
But what is so amazing to my way of thinking is that people in Yarnell for a big part were so happy to go along with the government abuse of first amendment rights.
There is a psychology to understand that and a good place to look is the prison system. Once these people are trained long they will often times commit crimes just to get back into the system–they can no longer function independently. So it is with the citizen–we have lived under the thumb so long we willingly give our rights over to Big Brother to bring in his enforcers to insure we have our green cards, the press is denied access, right of passage and highways closed and freedom and right of free speech is hindered, even legally to those that want to tell the story as it was and not the script handed down from higher command.
I think what few people know is that wild land fires ultimately fall under National Security and the US Army. That came about by legislation after the Japanese started attempting to start wild fires by sending incendiary devices over in air current by balloons. A few actually landed in the Oregon area but did no damage.
So now who wants to take on the Army? The Army could not have stopped the Yarnell Fire, and the military training of the GMHS crew failed in their instance or rather they failed in the proper performance of their duties yet they did not fail in Strictly obeying orders on a daily basis. If the Captains say charge that is what you should do. Disobeying orders can get you a court martial and desertion the firing squad.
And how about the retardant situation? Retardants are provided by giant corporate groups including Chemical companies such as Monsanto as well as huge mining corporations that provide the phosphates and nitrates. These companies can drop a million dollars like some of you do a hundred on watching the Stealers or Cowboys get their ass kicked or not. Their pleasure in profits come at a similar cost as your pleasure in watching a game does.
I may be wrong on the football figure–maybe my son said more like $500 for a game–yet the ratio is about the same.
The idea is they can control politics, media, men/women in charge of such operations as wild land fires and if they do not want something presented as it really happened then it will not happen. And after all why deprive the public of the beautiful orange retardant dumping–it is like a Fourth of July event that all want to see.
So things are really compartmentalized to the point there is not much allowed except need to know categories. For instance Donut did not need to know why he was stationed below the grader and he did not bother to ask or why he was abandoned there out of sight from the crew even though he was the designated look out. And he was a nice simple fellow willing to strictly follow orders on a daily basis. Then he kept following orders like the secret ingredients in Phos Chek–you can not talk unless Papa allows and Papa did not. So the real story was squelched as far as he had any information to share. But like wise the Blue Ridgers and all other involved unless the Honchos with the ponchos first heard should you dare ask.
It kind of reminds me of the moon photos==never mind they can read a license plate from satellites in the air–those moon photos are presented even closer to be out of focus and grainy–yet there are photos presented with extreme clarity. Since the Army also owns NASA, the moon photos are first vetted before presentation to the public. Do they have any good reason? Some very competent and respected people say they are in the habit of brushing out structures there as well as UFO’s that the Astronauts nearly all say dogged them throught out their journeys in space. Of course the astronauts are under strict orders to remain mum–but they have not after retirement.
I can see how the Army can keep down information for Security reasons about moon flights. Maybe this country would go ape shit like they did when HG Wells portrayed an alien invasion by radio. And what about religious people, what will it do to their ideas if you have structures there and alien craft and aliens hanging around the moon? The Feds, even Fema would have their hands full and people would be highly disgruntled knowing that officials knew but held back the truth.
But with wild fire deaths–it is not National Security–or is it? What is really going on that a lightening strike is allowed to burn and thousands of gallons are ordered to be dumped on a small village with toxic chemicals? I do not see much we can do about it, or that much will change–the system has its agenda, purpose and plausible cause to bend the facts.
charlie says
we go through life doing some things to try to understand what is behind it all–then you look at natural things, the dog, the quail, birds, animals in the wild and you see how damn contented they are never complaining and smiling when there is plenty and on the move when not trying to forage–but just accepting things as they are. That is what humans got away from–and you will say some of your best memories were living among nature and where life was not dealing with the bullshit and Riff Raff. People would say I have a boring life, and can’t understand how I detest city living and the control issues there. I like the natural thing but then I am not hooked by a job to do unless I want to do it. I do think there will be soon a big catastrophe brought about on purpose because the real powers of the world are seeing that the population of earth is getting too big for them to manage and besides they only need so many slaves at their bidding.
Do what you need to do –maybe not what you want to do–but even the CIA always has plausible reason. This is the bold New World Order and Bush, Trump, etc. and company and their masters are smiling off their golf courses somewhere saying ain’t it great. And I say ain’t it great I ain’t one of those turds.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Reply to joy a collura post on December 15, 2019 at 6:00 pm
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> https://youtu.be/C65FcpAi_-4
>>
>> At 5:34 of the video- who took the video and what is the metadata…
The video clip inside of that ‘Weather Channel’ video that begins at +5:34 is in the original SAIT ‘Photos and Video’ public evidence folder.
It’s in the Blue Ridge Hotshots photos and videos folder, under the subfolder named ‘Mccord’, and it has a filename of “yarnell 081.MOV”.
It is one of the videos shot by the Blue Ridge Hotshots when they were ‘staged’ in the Sesame clearing area, just south of where the GM Crew Buggies were parked.
It was taken at 10:46 AM, just a few minutes after the Blue Ridge Hotshot crew carriers had arrived there at the top of the Sesame clearing and parked just south of where the GM crew carriers were already staged.
Some of the metadata embedded in that ‘Mccord’ video is as follows…
————————————————————————————————————
File Name: yarnell 081.MOV
Camera Make: NIKON
Camera Model: COOLPIX S01
Video Duration: 0:00:30 ( seconds )
Creation Date/Time: June 30, 2013 – 10:46:27 AM
———————————————————————————————————–
Here is a link to the video clip itself that was used in that Weather Channel video…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Mccord / yarnell 081.MOV
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAA6NfZNgzsJRCDEtQXdUR-La/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Mccord?dl=0&preview=yarnell+081.MOV&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
>> joy a collura also asked…
>>
>> …and is that Eric Shane Marsh or a GMHS
>> past the buggy in the bush to the right?
No.
That ‘dark feature’ you are referring to in the video clip is not a person.
It’s simply the dark trunk of a small tree, or a dark piece of vegetation, or some combination of both.
That same ‘dark feature’ is clearly seen in MANY other photos and videos taken at various times at that same location where the GM crew carriers were ‘staged’ at the top of the Sesame clearing area.
I will follow this post with some ‘Replies’ that contain direct links to many of the other photos and videos showing this same ‘dark feature’ at that exact location.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Followup…
The same ‘dark feature’ seen in that Blue Ridge Hotshot ‘Mccord’ video is also seen clearly in another video shot a few hours later by Blue Ridge Hotshot ‘Desoto’
It’s pretty clear in THIS ‘Desoto’ video that the ‘dark feature’ there in the bushes just beyond the GM crew carriers is NOT a ‘person’.
Blue Ridge Hotshots Photos and Videos – Desoto Folder
————————————————————————————————
File Name: yarnell-desoto 003.MOV
Camera Model: iPhone 4S
Camera Make : Apple
Content Create Date: 2013:06:30 13:40:19-07:00 ( June 30, 2013 1:40:19 PM )
Video Duration: 26.07 seconds )
————————————————————————————————-
Video of a 1:40 PM retardant drop taken from exact same location as Weather Channel vide clip. Very sharp focus. Shows the ‘dark feature’ there just beyond the hoods of the GM Crew carrier.
The ‘Desoto’ Folder itself…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Desoto
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAny7hds6QmhtPbhnpc9j0Ka/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Desoto?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Direct link to the Desoto video…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Desoto / yarnell-desoto 003.MOV
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAny7hds6QmhtPbhnpc9j0Ka/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Desoto?dl=0&preview=yarnell-desoto+003.MOV&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
** Another still photo ( PNG photo ) in the same Desoto folder showing the
** same ‘dark feature’ there just beyond the GM crew carriers
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Desoto / yarnell-desoto 004.png
Filename “yarnell-desoto 004.png”
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAny7hds6QmhtPbhnpc9j0Ka/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Desoto?dl=0&preview=yarnell-desoto+004.png&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
** Another Desoto photo showing the same ‘dark feature’. there in the bushes…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Desoto / yarnell-desoto 006.png
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAny7hds6QmhtPbhnpc9j0Ka/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Desoto?dl=0&preview=yarnell-desoto+006.png&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
** Yet another still photo ( PNG photo ) in Desoto folder showing same ‘dark feature’…
Filename “yarnell-desoto 007.png”
NOTE: This one has been ‘color enhanced’ and shows the same feature with higher contrast and resolution.
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Desoto / yarnell-desoto 007.png
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAny7hds6QmhtPbhnpc9j0Ka/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Desoto?dl=0&preview=yarnell-desoto+007.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
** Another photo showing the same ‘dark feature’ there in the bushes.
** This time it’s in the Blue Ridge Hoptshot Papich Folder
IMG_3952.JPG ( Taken at 12:20 PM on June 30, 2013 )
Matches what is seen in the Weather Channel video clip.
You can see right over the hoods of the GM Crew Carriers just like
the view at the start of the video clip above.
But this time, there are other vehicles parked just to the south of the GM buggies.
This photo was taken at the moment when that ‘meeting’ took place there at that
staging area between DIVZ Rance Marquez and the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
The time was 12:20 PM ( 20 minutes after NOON )
————————————————————————————–
File Name: IMG_3952.jpg
Camera Make: Apple
Camera Model Name: iPhone 4
Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 12:20:49
————————————————————————————–
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Papich / IMG_3952.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADuqXo3pgQkUJGLvRf_h3yLa/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Papich?dl=0&preview=IMG_3952.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
** Another Papich photo ( IMG_3948.jpg ) taken with a
** network-connected iPhone 4S smartphone at 10:40 AM on June 30, 2013.
This photo was taken at 10:40 AM, just 10 minutes after the Blue Ridge Hotshots had arrived at the north end of the Sesame clearing area and had parked their own crew carriers just south of where the GM crew carriers were already parked.
Photo IMG_3948.jpg shows the same perspective as the video clip. Same ‘dark feature’ there in the bushes on the left side of the photo and just beyond the front hoods of the GM Crew Carriers.
Link to the Blue Ridge Hotshot ‘Papich’ folder…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Papich
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADuqXo3pgQkUJGLvRf_h3yLa/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Papich?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Direct link to his IMG_3948.jpg photo…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Papich / IMG_3948.jpg
—————————————————————————————
File Name: IMG_3948.jpg
Camera Make: Apple
Camera Model Name: iPhone 4
Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 10:40:20
—————————————————————————————
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADuqXo3pgQkUJGLvRf_h3yLa/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Papich?dl=0&preview=IMG_3948.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
** Also in the same Blue Ridge Hotshot Papich folder…
IMG_3953.mov
Another video clip taken from the same vantage point as that ‘Weather Channel’ clip.
He was filming one of the VLAT retardant drops out in the middle bowl.
This one’s a little blurry as compared to the other Blue Ridge Hotshot photos and videos, but it still shows the same ‘dark feature’ there in the bushes just north of the GM crew carriers.
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Papich / IMG_3953.mov
—————————————————————————————–
File Name: IMG_3953.mov
Make: Apple
Model: iPhone 4S
Creation Date: 2013:06:30 13:40:19-07:00 ( June 30, 2013 – 1:40 PM )
—————————————————————————————–
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADuqXo3pgQkUJGLvRf_h3yLa/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Papich?dl=0&preview=IMG_3953.mov&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
joy a collura says
thank you for taking the time to “define” an area for someone- I am focused on part 3-5 posts so it was worth asking when it was brought to my attention yet I was busy elsewhere-
Gary Olson says
General and Belated Housekeeping:
This post is in response to a question asked by Sonny some time back. My father was killed August 8, 1958 (age 32) in a fall down an underground mine while working in the Kermac Nuclear Fuels mine near Ambrosia Lake, Northwest of Grants, New Mexico.
I want to express my deepest appreciation and gratitude to Sonny for all of the background information surrounding my father’s death that he has provided to me both here on this thread and in private on the back channel. And now I also want to thank Joy for adding some additional context with her comments on this thread. Before learning what both Sonny and Joy wrote, I didn’t know anything more than was contained in the short article on this page, some of which I know is incorrect.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/20518943/lee-merton-olson
For example, my father wasn’t a resident of Grants, New Mexico and Sonny has informed me that he couldn’t have been a shift foreman because they were all busted down old miners who worked for low wages. In addition, we lived at the mining camp near (or in) Ambrosia Lake and not in Grants.
And whoever named that Godforsaken piece of real estate Ambrosia Lake had a very twisted sense of humor since there hasn’t been a lake there for eons or probably much longer. That area is nothing more than an ugly, flat, wind swept, alkaline high desert that is freezing in the winter and burning hot in the summer. In addition to being an underground depository for uranium from millions of years ago when all of New Mexico was deep under an inland sea.
On a side note, the Grand Canyon was formed when this inland sea eventually joined the rest of the world’s oceans flowing down what is known now as the Colorado (Red) River and if you have never seen it up close, I would call it the Liquid Mud River. In my job with the BLM, I saw countless and absolutely fascinating petrified remains of many different Dinosauriformes and other animals that once thrived in the Four Corners region while working deep in the backcountry.
My older sister remembers she and I used to run around and collect leaflets dropped from an airplane that would occasionally fly over the mining camp where we lived in order to fold them up and stuff them in the gaps between the boards of the miners shack we lived in while paying exorbitant rental rates to Kerr – McGee, the evil parent corporation of Kermac Nuclear Fuels that was made infamous in the movie, “Silkwood.”
In addition…my father’s military service as a Marine during WWII, which is emphasized on his gravestone has nothing to do with his death except that the Veterans Administration paid for it, so they got to write his short epithet. Interestingly enough, my father wasn’t a miner any more than he was a heavy equipment operator, a logger, a cowboy, or a butcher, baker or candlestick maker. My father was a blue collar worker who had a family to support so he worked at relatively high paying but very dangerous jobs.
I am still reading this thread, I am just not posting because I don’t have anything new to add to the discussion. I know that hasn’t stopped me before, but I am now really focusing my efforts on what of course will be the greatest book ever written about wildland firefighters and hotshots in particular, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods.”
I am no longer writing a book about the Yarnell Hill Fire because I’m not qualified to do so and I am much to fragile and vulnerable as a person to withstand a withering book critique by WTKTT. HAL 9000 is the only one qualified to write that book which should only be written in a Case Report format rather than as a nonfiction book.
I will however, include a chapter or two about the biggest blunder in wildland firefighting history. And I pray to God we never have another one, but of course we will, because one time (the Loop Fire of 1966) is an anomaly, two times (the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976) is a coincidence, but three times is a pattern (the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013). God Bless America and wildland firefighters in particular! Amen.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. If I don’t see you beforehand, I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas 🎄🎁 and a Happy 😃 New Year 🎉
🎊 🍾
Joy A Collura says
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
I will see you during the Holiday Gary 🌲 🥶🏕⛰
See my tree there above
Needs help decorating 🙏
And last I knew you had the ⚽️ 🏀 🏈⚾️🏐🎱🥎🎾 ❄️🥴🤪👩🏼🚒⚒🗺
Gotta film ya 🎞 🤩🕵️♀️
I know .. I know
Retired means pension not tension but have you
seen how they are running the fire industry
👩💻👩🍳👩🌾 you can be just you…just keep living…
Seems everyone is dying off that was tied to Yarnell and it’s aftermath 🤯
True about AI9000🤖
Merrymaker you…thanks for the compliment about Sonny and me
and Wtktt but what about the woodsman and rts and bob powers
and Diane Lomas and rocksteady and norb and ttware etc..🎁🎉✝️🍾🎄☃️🌬
Gary Olson says
I was specifically thanking you and Sonny for the background information surrounding my father’s death some time back and those other people didn’t add to that body of work that I know of. And I admire your use of emojis!
Gary Olson says
Sonny of course provided most of the backstory of what it was like to work in those mines and even the very same mine my father was killed in years later, both on the thread and in private emails.
But you added some from when you were in Santa Fe way back downstream. (right? That was you wasn’t it?) I haven’t been able to read it all yet or very closely, but I will…eventually.
And as far as the FIRE industry goes, I want to wish them the best of luck because they have a lot of young peoples lives in their hands and I want to see everyone eventually get to where I am. Which is a state of contentment. Happiness is overrated, I just shoot for being content with occasional flashes of happiness. 😎
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. I have been really busy for the past several weeks relocating to have better access to medical facilities. And I can neither confirm nor deny that I am now living in Pattaya, Thailand. But if you look closely…you might see me in the background of this video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HmkKj2BSGxY
In the meantime…I am seriously considering pursuing Far Eastern religious studies in Mexico City. So…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VABCnLvze3I
charlie says
That was the sad part of the Uranium Miner legacy. You see how his death report was posted on the back pages in a small notice. He should have been hailed on the front page–A Marine and Hero gives his life in the Uranium mines– Two honors and medallions earned by his ultimate sacrifice. It was that way because the Kerr McGhee and the Feds wanted to downplay any deaths concerning Uranium mining.
Kerr Mac started those mines in 1953 as I recollect–by 1958 they were deep mines indeed. My Dad could dig a 70 ft shaft in a few months by his old hand steel methods and windlass to pull the ore out–I know because I helped him do one that very depth. Those KerrMac shifts had about 300 men going down into that rat hole and the cage that went down had a cable that was 2 and half inch in diameter to hold. The cage had two levels of men, one above the other so that about 50 men were above or below you as you dropped down. So they dropped down about 100 men at a time and with several working levels and more than thirty miles of tunnel works you could see they were busy getting ore to the surface to get to the mill that stood out in the open an that desert plane and could be seen for miles as you passed it to go to Section 30. Kerr Mac made billions courtesy of the tax payer. Yet the miners and families that suffered loss of loved ones or injuries had to resort to legal action since they only concerned themselves with profits. Miners in later years got compensated if they turned up with cancer or Uranium listed diseases such as COPD and Lung issues–but the catch was that it had to be before 1975. My years were some before that time but most after that year so I did not make the grade even though I have the years in and cancer issues. And it turns out the tax payer, not Kerr Mac, United Nuclear, Standard Oil, Hamilton, or any of the other mine owners have to pay for subsequent health issued due to Uranium Mining. Aren’t these trillion dollar industrial giants grand?
The fight for Uranium Miner Compensation was long and arduous and took Congressional Approval –New Mexico Senators championed the legislation so miners, mill workers, people exposed in the Military and so on that wound up with expensive medical bills could get some compensation. If they update it for elgibility to go past 74 I will be elgible for $250,000 one time payment for having cancer and COPD related to mining that shit. There has been proposed legislation but it is never acted upon.
So hopefully you wild fire and other firemen will get some legislation–you all deserve at least 250 grand for having your life shortened and degraded health issues due to that retardant crap you are exposed to.
Uranium is almost double the weight of lead in equal volume and almost the same density as gold (19.3) but its hardness is at 6 on Mohs scale which means it is close to cast iron. But because it is dense and hard it was used in Iraq for penetrating bullets. It’s radiation is trapped by carbon in the lungs so that it remains until metastasizing the cells. Plutonium is associated with Uranium in the mines and later separated to make the Hydrogen bombs and also in powering satellites, etc. It is known that as much as 17 pounds may be in a satellite and Canada was one place where one scattered a goodly amount. These events are kept low key like the deaths of Uranium miners. Plutonium is touted to be the most toxic substance on earth. One atom of Plutonium in the lungs or skin is enough to start a cancer and a tiny bit killed the Russian Spy in England–closely related is Polonium 210, a rare thing only extracted in making the Hydrogen bombs.
None of the radioactive elements are good for health–and despite what they say about using depleted Uranium in bullets–a damned lie. Any extra radiation is dangerous and can cause ill effects to humans or animals.
charlie says
They say that cancer has passed heart disease as the leading cause of death in fire fighters. Some study says that there is only a modest 14% cancer incidents in fire fighters over the national average. Who the hell does these studies and how can you call a 14% increase in deaths a modest thing? I swear these people do studies financed by the chemical and retardant companies and that is about 95 % true and any independent studies will be challenged by authorities.
You don’t need to be a lame brain to look at the histories of most long time fire fighters to know that the smoke and chemicals have done them all harm no more than you need to look at people that were down winders of the many nuclear bombs set off at Mercury site have high incidence of leukemia and other cancers including defective births. Yarnell is an excellent example of the lame brains not taking notice of how dangerous these chemicals are to human health–especially once the immune system gets taxed by age or other causes.
joy a collura says
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mazd2wv8u4ku9ds/AAChbobXnkLtpDTUfrFyjtGaa?preview=IMG_0412.JPG
what always bothered me about reviewing YH Fire photos was that investigators from both SAIT SAIR and ADOSH did not take the time in the interviews and make sense why people took this photo or that photo- even my own set. Dr. Ted Putnam, Charlie Moseley and Johnny Kirkley were the only people who did take that time on my set. If I was a parent or loved one I would have demanded it.
joy a collura says
At 5:34 of the video- who took the video and what is the metadata and is that Eric Shane Marsh or a GMHS past the buggy in the bush to the right?
https://youtu.be/C65FcpAi_-4
Charlie says
Another one bites the retardant dust. Doug that we met and Joy interviewed for his witness to the Shine burn has pass in October–Joy just had informed me. Whew, who in Yarnell will be able to witness anything–kill them off with retardant, then who is to say anything?
The list goes on–I have been on and near registered to the list a few times thanks to those retardant dumps at Yarnell. You will do well to avoid the town, although hopefully by now the rains have washed away enough of the toxins.
I hope Raul and Teresa are OK, she was hanging in on a thread going from a vivacious person to home bound and ill with Raul also not so well within the year after the retardant dumps. This is part of the horrror story of Yarnell and due to the chemical destruction it has caused to the health of the people there.
Will the WHO or EPA investigate–don’t hold your breath unless you are in Yarnell–and if you can for two minutes breeze through and find safer air.
Maybe there were be a plaque placed there in memory of the Yarnellites used as Lab Rats to prove the danger of having retardant dumped profusely about your village. Add me to the list since I died once from its effects.
Look at the facts then form your opinion–you may agree with those I opine.
Charlie says
I should clarify–Doug was owner of the Grotto–thing that looked like a castle and he was atop his Grotto watching all the action–including who was using drip torches at the Shrine area–very near and just below the Shrine. There are two things that people always went to visit in Yarnall–one was the Shrine where full sized statues of Jesus and a nice trek up the mountain to a cross is and then the Grotto with rocks painted into animals on the way up.
Oddly the Shine buildings burned away except one and the stature of Jesus also had burning around it but not harmed. The Irish Gods might have been looking out for it. At any case, you don’t have to be a Catholic to visit the Shrine and it is a worthy trek–maybe leave a buck in the donation box for that lady that cares for the place if you feel like it. I don’t know if you can visit the Grotto now but at least get a photo–looks like a Spanish style small castle up on the side of the hill below the Shrine area. Easy road and not far off the main highway and you are within a mile and a half of the death zone of the 19.
Charlie says
So before I close it down for the night and do a good slug of triple distilled Irish Clontarf–Joy might post Doug’s age–I though him to be a young 60. But of course that area had heavy doses of retardant with all his hillside looking like an Vietnam agent orange zone. But what part of Yarnell did not get the look?
Happy trails–breath shallow in the orange zones..
joy a collura says
h t t p s ://www.legacy.com/obituaries/ncenterprise-info/obituary.aspx?n=james-douglas-camblin-doug&pid=194444636
This is the Grotto owner you mentioned above where I took many to see a homeowners video/photos on June 30, 2013 of the Grotto angle of the Sesame to Shrine Corridor areas-
Yet there is ONE Northern Arizona Firefighter who was THERE on June 30, 2013 who never made it to the reports yet REACH ME- I know your story already but would like to fact check some stuff by you-
(4 8 0 ) 5 5 9-1 9 7 1
Robert the Second says
Finally! Posting both Parts 1 and 2 of our latest 2019 Applied Human Factors and Ergonomics (AHFE) posts. Please share as you see fit.
Part 1 of 5 – Underneath every simple, obvious story about human error,’ there is a deeper, more complex story – a story about the system in which people work. Will these formerly unrevealed public records change the account of what occurred on June 30, 2013?
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2019/11/28/Part-1-of-5—Underneath-every-simple-obvious-story-about-human-error%E2%80%99-there-is-a-deeper-more-complex-story—a-story-about-the-system-in-which-people-work-Will-these-formerly-unrevealed-public-records-change-the-account-of-what-occurred-on-June-30-2013 )
Part 2 of 5 – Underneath every simple, obvious story about human error, there is a deeper, more complex story – a story about the system in which people work. Will these formerly unrevealed public records change the account of what occurred on June 30, 2013?
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2019/12/15/Part-2-of-5—Underneath-every-simple-obvious-story-about-human-error-there-is-a-deeper-more-complex-story—a-story-about-the-system-in-which-people-work-Will-these-formerly-unrevealed-public-records-change-the-account-of-what-occurred-on-June-30-2013 )
joy a collura says
Simply stated, Sonny, on your recent comments.
just archiving old data to new data – simple as that
before more folks die I want to ensure I documented some certain areas
It is a deep concern the slurry drops, indeed.
As far as reaching me to share – I am always there for that yet as far as a documentary … I will not be making a book or movie yet it is stimulating to talk documentary yet premature but it does perk my attention to maybe put some final areas that way.
I wanted your account again because you are key in this even if some are emailing me what is happening with all this UFO stuff and Sonny – until you meet the folks he use to know and know his pure path; it all just seems “odd” yet I stand by him in his paths he seen because there is witnesses too. People fail to remember- days before the fire CBS producer for film interviewed Sonny on THAT topic of his UFO moment and they took him very serious. It is just “different” and so many are awaiting people to TALK YARNELL like the areas still hidden.
I have to due to legal counsel and my good ethics head to my blog and redact a section on post 1.
Happy Bday again Sonny.
If a documentary was to be made- seems one would want all to know except people fail to remember there are folks in this who do not want the facts out so keep that in mind that-
If you want a documentary to happen then let God direct it and it does not even need others to produce it- we need the fresh real stories in its organic raw forms, Sonny…nothing made for profit.
Just pure people sharing … that is what is needed-
so if you are in that way of thinking then reach me and tell me more …
but I said that for years – nothing new there.
charlie says
Of Course we do need a documentary and to some great degree there is one right here on Investigative media and supplemented with Joy’s Website we have plenty information that would change the way things are managed concerning wildfires, wild fire deaths, and retardant toxin dumping. Someone will hopefully organize and produce a movie that is not strictly about the lives of the GMHS crew–truly a heart breaker to understand how men of such worth and youth were sacrificed for the fire gods.
So hopefully some famous producer like Michael Mann or James Cameron will orient a documentary more in the direction of what went wrong to kill 19 experienced wild land fire fighters and what can be done to change reasons men are being led into deadly situations that are proven to be entirely opposite to principles of wild land fire fighting actions and safety. It had killed 14 at the Storm King fire, 13 at Mann Gulch and many other needless deaths that were presented as unfortunate accidents and not the real reasons the men were killed. The world and the fire community deserve the truth and it needs to be out there in a big way–not watered down and as many are trying to do–forget it and find no reason to change.
Will people tire of the Yarnell Fire Deaths? I think not–Mann Gulch was over 50 years ago, yet it has taken over 50 years for data to be revealed to prove the real cause of those deaths and who was responsible. Fortunately these days we have computers, easy communication, and people in position to contest the thin whitewash over a dirty work.
I do not believe the many efforts and keen investigative work of the elite firemen and other wise individuals that contribute on this site is in vain. There will be results and those results are necessary for lifesaving changes.
charlie says
Cameron the movie producer was in the news just a couple days ago–something about setting up to drag an astroid into moon orbit so it could be mined. I think probably one they know to be rich in Nickle content?
Just do not let one get loose and drop off to engage earth–one about 70 miles in diameter would pretty much kill off life on earth if it came in at the velocity of what the Astronauts do in their capsules. They have to do it at the right angle or they make a big hole in the earth–but angle and parachutes won’t stop a big asteroid.
I think I have a tektite or at least ejecta from the Chicxulub astroid that destroyed the dinosaurs 65 my ago- but you can get a tektite from ebay for $5 or so that came from a crater 700,000 years ago–interesting thing to have and some of the new worlders use them to attract good tidings since they are actually also a form of a meteorite.
Science is pretty good so I am sure Cameron has the system down so an asteroid does not escape the moon and is sucked in by earth’s gravity. Happy asteroid watching.
charlie says
Yes the UFO stuff is real and you only have to visit my abode and look out every night to see them. The 2.3 Trillion Cheney said some time ago that was unaccounted for was his story of course and Cheney and company highly benefited for accountable as well as I would have to believe some unaccountable tax dollars. I have to believe if he said 2.3 Trillion is mission then the figure is more like double or triple that amount used on black opts by this date. I would think he knows more than he dares say. On the UFO thing he said if he knew anything it would be top secret so he would not be able to speak about that.
Certainly with those monies, a number of Mercedes have been provided–even Lamborghinis but you have to know that there is technology 200 years ahead of what is known under these secret black opts programs. Most are hidden under Military and Defense secrets but involve everything from weapons and spy satellites to creating the new Warrior. Already they are implanting human DNA mixed with pigs to grow human hearts and you have to believe foreign countries such as China, Japan, Korea, India and others have melded humans with such things as cattle, lions, or apes to create chimeras –those Minotaur of old were real and creations of alien visitors playing around with DNA. We may be creations of their making and perhaps the many alien abductions are to upgrade our rather dull operating brains.
For certain the technology to tap a computer into the brain is already creating super brains and you have the hybrids and cyborgs that are already in action. The future fire fighter will be able to not only think faster and devoid of emotion, he will be able to carry 200 pounds at a increased pace for long distances without tiring. That is already working in the Military Departments and the new Warrior like the Wild Land Fire fighter will be able to sustain situations and stress that far surpasses the human threshold. The hidden tax dollars have developed some interesting technology to say the least.
Yes I have anywhere from one to four obvious UFO appearances that usually last the whole night–they move around and are proud of their lighting systems–green, red, orange, white, blue and one photo I sent Joy has windows of different colored lights. I do suspect they are not aliens per se from other planets manning these things but some of the shape shifters we have in top government –or at least some brain farcked underling that operates these things. They might be watching dope smugglers or the big influx of illegal aliens or again it is possible they are keeping tabs on the White Sands Missle Operations–at least those more to the North would be. I have ordered an optical 83x with 166 digital so I might be able to see if these are lizard men or something more like the earthly varieties we have hanging around Washington DC.
Anyway, hang on to your hats because the world is changing fast–and maybe why the fire gods are not in a mood to change things. Maybe they know that the old time fire fighter is about to be replaced with the new warrior type that will be programmed and fitted up so well that he will make the toughest old wild land fire fighter a thing of the past.
I don’t see retardants doing anything different since these new wild land fire fighters will be immune to toxins–maybe even designed to breath smoke like oxygen. Anyway if we keep pumping green house gases like methane and carbon dioxide in the air and destroying the forests, mainly the Amazon rain forests-maybe we are needing to redesign ourselves so we do not need oxygen–and I do think oxygen gets the alien sick–so we could use some redesigning there.
This world will be fun–for one thing the paper dollar Ponzi scheme where the government gets the Federal Reserve board to print up the billions every time they spend them off and the banks just give them a paper with an official seal for all this paper that is green and purple with some computer stripe to trace it some day will devalue to what it really is–printed paper and nothing but a debt note with nothing to back it. It is moving toward the German Mark or Confederate money–although they are worth more now for their historical value. I keep saying buy yourself some silver–I bought a few silver 50 cent pieces–only in America do you pay $6 for 50 cents. “But I know it is a bargain because the 50 silvers will always be valuable but that dollar is sliding bad. I saw some things in Wal Mart jump lately–99 cent canned dog food is now $139 in just three months. Now that is Speedy Gonzalez on hormones to move like that.
Smile you are on camera, maybe even as you write your Senator on the Internet. Happy trails but leave your phone at home unless your dogs have learned to shoot.
Charlie says
Good idea to check folks out before they pass on–with over 200 now dead in Yarnell, you will have to hurry. Yes and I know you figure I couldn’t stand a third death–and the clock keeps on ticking so you better get those witness statements as soon as possible. I think some of your prime witnesses are already gone—look to your left if you are living in Yarnell, then look to your right–Both neighbors will be dead by now and you are likely ill from something related to a heart, lung or cancer issue. That retardant is strong stuff.
Is Paul stll alive? He lived across from the retired newpaper editor that was fortunate enough to be out of town and live out of town for a long spell before returning. I know he and his wife are still alive since they were away during the first year but that guy next door is dead–the man with the wife that talked a lot. Is she still alive. You can put names to them Joy–they were all on the Northwest edge of Glen Isla with frontal views of the incoming Yarnell Wild Fire.
The editor and wife had a daughter making a honey tequila–Mormon folks as I remember. They were fortunate since they did not live in Yarnell with their tequila factory. But the editor was the last one on the block so he had only one neighbor to die–and I believe the Witness across the moved to Vegas right after the fire. The fortunate ones got the hell out of Dodge after the fire but no one knew that people would be knocked off like flies after the retardant dumps of 2013 and 2016.
Take a look at wild land and city fire statistics concerning heart, lung and cancer issues. You will see that these men suffer way beyond what the statistics should be–how do you repay them for a service that assures them a retirement of doctor and hospital visits and medical expenses add a shortened life span. Once you see their statistics you can better understand why the elderly and those with taxed immune systems were killed off at Yarnell.
There are no long term studies except they do not want you to know that the fish are killed off immediately and the dead zones are being steadily increased in the oceans. They certainly don’t want you to know the obituary list and number of people sick after the retardant dumps at Yarnell. Those politicians are easily convinced that the retardants are harmless when their coffers for election and re election are filled by the corporate giants–like advertising, just a part of their budget to buy politicans–doing business has its costs.
But the human health and environmental concerns are not part of their idea of costs–the clean up and costs there will go to the tax payer who also pays for the distribution of their toxins.
Just that people are ignorant of the facts or are too busy trying to make ends meet. Only a few of the old ones and then the young ones that will inherit the mess are speaking out. The fat cats that are bulging in money will remain as anonymous as possible–power in money and knowledge kept from the public eye. And besides the corporate 1% that own the wealth also know it does not matter how much you harp about their polluting ways, people will continue to apply the retardants despite what they know. That pretty orange is great to Americans for its look–even they loved it in Vietnam but the Vietnamese did not–nor did the soldiers later once they began suffering the harmful effects of having been exposed to it.
When people look at the orange dumping they thing they are getting a good deal for their tax money. I was not until Bill, our Canadian friend did a bit of research and educating himself that he said how he once looked at the drops with admiration–but now sees it entirely differently. Education is a great liberator and even life saver, yet few people actually change. For example, despite the known facts that smoking is guaranteed to shorten your life, eventually cause horrendous health problems, you still see people lighting up.
In so called free America, you have the right to commit suicide your way–I just don’t want to be the one handing you the loaded pistol–rather be trying to talk you out of it. I know what it is like to be on the heart attack death bed. or having numerous cancerous tumors cut out and other medical nightmares. Sometimes I think I deserved the cancers from mining Uranium, adding to the pollution of the world, but I certainly did not deserve the heart attacks that resulted after the retardant drops no more than any other resident of Yarnell did. I see the dumping of retardant toxins on the village of Yarnell as criminal acts covered by propaganda that these corporations produce. I see the way these phosphates, ammonium nitrates and hidden chemicals under trade secret laws as more blatant criminal activity. Maybe you have a more politically correct term for these actions–I can’t think of one.
My opinions of course but they did not come easily–they came from lying on hospital beds, suffering loss of mobility and seeing the many ill and dead of Yarnell, then researching what these chemicals really do. My college Chemistry was a B+ on the verge of an A–that is not an easy course but one that gives you an idea of how chemicals react and how even new chemicals are made once a wet solution of retardant is applied to heat from wild fires. You can even get Zyclon B (cyanide gas) in the mix but the phosphates and nitrates are bad enough for human health and certain instant death to fish but what are the hidden chemicals these fools are adding?. So don’t let the ignorant dispensers of these toxins convince you that they are doing the right thing with their deadly concoctions–they are not! Too many Yarnellites are screaming from their graves–beware of the greedy dispensers of toxins.
Robert the Second says
Here’s your big chance – NPS Fire Management Specialist (Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (LLC) Manager )
Location: Tucson, AZ OR Boise, ID
“This may be your greatest opportunity to contribute to the growth and well-being of the wildland fire service.”
“Not interested? Please forward to someone you think could handle this challenge.”
“The Federal hiring process is setup to be fair and transparent.”
( https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/553704800 )
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (LLC)Fact Sheet
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (LLC)Fact Sheet – Mission Statement – The Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center(LLC)actively promotes a learning culture to enhance and sustain safe and effective work practices in the wildland fire community. The LLC provides opportunities and resources to foster collaboration among all fire professionals, facilitates their networks, provides access to state-of-the-art learning tools and links learning to training.
“The LLC helps the entire wildland fire community use lessons from the past and present to improve for the future.” And what do you think – how about using the June 30, 2013, Yarnell Hill Fire debacle and the GMHS tragedy as a start?
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
It was in the fall, 2018 issue of “Two More Chains” magazine where it was ‘announced’ that Brit Rosso, the director of the National Park Service’s Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( WFLLC ) would be retiring.. and not by choice.
Brit Rosso had been the director of the WFLLC since 2010 and is being forced to take mandatory retirment next month, in January of 2019.
Here is that WFLLC “Two Chains Issue” where Rosso’s retirement was announced and WFLLC writer Travis Dotson does an ‘interview’ with Brit Rosso…
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/viewdocument/two-more-chains-fall-2018
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Correction for above…
Brit Rosso has ALREADY been forced to take mandatory retirement, back in January of 2019. It’s not ‘upcoming’. It’s already happened. WFLLC is only now getting around to hiring some more management help.
In the Fall, 2018 article above… Brit Rosso said that he wanted to retire back in 2013…. when the Yarnell Hill tragedy took place.
Here is exactly how he described the feeling of FAILURE when Yarnell happened…
———————————————————————————–
Travis Dotson: Were you eligible to retire in 2013?
Brit Rosso: Yes.
Travis Dotson: Did it cross your mind after Yarnell?
Brit Rosso: Yes, actually more than once. I mean that night for sure, and the next day as we learned more. It crossed my mind multiple times;
I was just done.
I don’t know if that’s because of going through South Canyon in ’94, the loss of 34 firefighters that year. And then, losing almost a whole crew in 2013. Our LLC program assistant said to me right afterwards:
“We failed. Everything we’ve done has been for nothing. We failed because this happened again.”
She had this perspective that all the energy and effort that we put in from basically 2002 to 2013 was for naught because it happened again, we lost 19 firefighters.
I had a long conversation with her and said, look, this could happen again tomorrow. That’s how much risk and complexity and uncertainty is baked into this environment that we engage with on a daily basis, it’s an incredibly hazardous environment. And no matter what we do here, we’re not going to be able to stop it, we’re not going to be able to get to zero, we’re not going to be able to keep bad things from happening to good people.
But our hope is with everything that we’re doing here we can decrease the chances of these things from happening.
So yes, I did think about retiring after Yarnell — multiple times.
———————————————————————————–
Newsflash: The BEST way to “decrease the chances of these things from happening” is to, first and foremost, do the best investigation(s) possible and ( then ) tell the TRUTH about what actually happened.
Robert the Second says
WTKTT,
Thank you for posting this. I missed the ‘Two More Chains’ original article.
Former WLF LLC Center Manager Rosso took the June 30, 213, YH Fire debacle and GMHS tragedy pretty hard stating “I was just done.”
“I don’t know if that’s because of going through South Canyon in ’94, the loss of 34 firefighters that year. And then, losing almost a whole crew in 2013. Our LLC program assistant said to me right afterwards:
“’ We failed. Everything we’ve done has been for nothing. We failed because this happened again. ”
“She had this perspective that all the energy and effort that we put in from basically 2002 to 2013 was for naught because it happened again, we lost 19 firefighters. ”
Pretty bold statement to make here, like THEY were the ones responsible for the GMHS decisions, actions, and outcomes that day.
“I had a long conversation with her and said, look, this could happen again tomorrow. That’s how much risk and complexity and uncertainty is baked into this environment that we engage with on a daily basis, it’s an incredibly hazardous environment.”
“And no matter what we do here, we’re not going to be able to stop it, we’re not going to be able to get to zero, we’re not going to be able to keep bad things from happening to good people.” I agree with this statement. WF deaths from wildfire are inevitable due to Human Factors, Errors, and Failures.
“But our hope is with everything that we’re doing here we can decrease the chances of these things from happening.” Agreed here. That is all we can strive for – reducing WF deaths from wildfires.
“So yes, I did think about retiring after Yarnell — multiple times.”
———————————————————————————–
And spot on with your “Newsflash: The BEST way to ‘decrease the chances of these things from happening’ is to, first and foremost, do the best investigation(s) possible and ( then ) tell the TRUTH about what actually happened.”
And add on to this – why it happened!
Woodsman says
There IS the common argument, “don’t let perfect be the enemy of good,” but your position is taking the concept way too far. Your “inevitably” claim is 1 short side-step to the doctrine of acceptable losses (highjacked from the military) and applied to wildland firefighting. While net zero losses may not be possible in the end, it should remain the goal. Accepting any losses due to inherent dangers associated with the job is defeatest and not the premise wildland firefighters should employed under. This is not warfighting and is not akin to taking a risk to save a life. It’s trees and shrubs.
Robert the Second says
Woodsman,
My “inevitably” claim is NOT a “short side-step to the doctrine of acceptable losses (highjacked from the military) and applied to wildland firefighting.”
Factually, it is a solid conclusion in all work areas across the board, (e.g. motor vehicle transportation, aircraft, maritime, railroad, law enforcement, health care,
Latent conditions are “the inevitable “resident pathogens” within the system” that arise from decisions made … ” (Reason, 2000, p.769).
Since errors are inevitable, workplace safety needs to allow personnel or employees to detect, correct and recover from those errors, which applies to the HRO prong of :deference to expertise.
Dekker further noted: “In the human performance system, human error is merely a symptom of some trouble deeper in the system (2006).
Human factors researchers note that a system approach to human error and workplace accidents puts the emphasis on safety management and the “system defenses” that prevent accidents.
Dr. James Reason asserts that the best way to prevent workplace accidents is to take a system approach and look at “error traps” in the workplace that give rise to accidents, rather than taking a person approach and focusing on human fallibility, which is inevitable.
He also noted in a paper on operating room safety that “There are nearly always losers. In judging uncertain futures, it is inevitable that some of the shots will be called wrongly. We cannot prevent the creation of latent failures, we can only make their adverse consequences visible before they combine with local triggers to breach the system’s defenses. ”
Reason further pointed out that “… gradual culture change [is] occurring in health care, which is learning to admit that human error is inevitable, universal and ‘… a completely normal and necessary part of human cognitive function. ‘Incident, near miss, and adverse event data are now being meaningfully gathered. This is leading to the development and application of effective preventive strategies … referred to as ‘closing the loop.'”
And English researchers Rasmussen, Nixon, and Warner believe that characterizing high professional skill, and a large gamut of heuristic know-how rules, will develop through by an adaptation process in which ‘errors’ are unavoidable side effects of the exploration of the boundaries of the acceptable performance envelope.
I totally agree with you here: “While net zero losses may not be possible in the end, it should remain the goal. Accepting any losses due to inherent dangers associated with the job is defeatest and not the premise wildland firefighters should employed under. This is not warfighting and is not akin to taking a risk to save a life. It’s trees and shrubs.”
“And no matter what we do here, we’re not going to be able to stop it, we’re not going to be able to get to zero, we’re not going to be able to keep bad things from happening to good people.” I agree with this statement. WF deaths from wildfire are inevitable due to Human Factors, Errors, and Failures.
You posted: “But our hope is with everything that we’re doing here we can decrease the chances of these things from happening. V/b> ” Agreed here. I still think we’re saying the same thing here. That is all we can strive for – reducing (decrease the chances) of these WF deaths from wildfires.
Woodsman says
Thanks. All of those quotes were not mine, by the way.
How about we take a different tack on this one. Rosso, the recently forced to retire director of the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center, was quoted at the end of his interview by a subordinate saying we cannot fight fire safely.
The final question in the interview was, “Can we fight fire safely?”
The retiring director of the WFLLC said “No.”
What are your thoughts on that? If this is the case than aren’t we lying to firefighters and the public with Fire Order #10?
This comes back to the orders serving to protect management from culpability in the case of an accident. Management has forced the workers to adhere to basic rules that can’t be followed. All of the responsibility for accident avoidance is placed on the ground forces. Management has admitted that we can’t fight fire safely; no matter what and sometimes “bad things happen to good people.” Sounds very similar to the SAIR from Yarnell Hill.
Robert the Second says
Woodsman,
You posted “The final question in the interview was, “Can we fight fire safely?” with Rosso saying “No.”
My thoughts on that? I disagree with him. I believe – and know – we absolutely can fight wildfires safely
You are correct, based on what Rosso claims, we are certainly lying to firefighters and the public with Fire Order #10. However, it’s up to the WFs, FFs, and Supervisors themselves to ensure that, and not the public.
I have never believed in the claim that the Fire Orders serve “to protect management from culpability in the case of an accident.”
I do subscribe to the notion that “Management has forced the workers to adhere to basic rules that can’t be followed.”
I absolutely believe that MOST “of the responsibility for accident avoidance is placed on the ground forces” and the rest on Management.
Indeed, some of management has admitted that we can’t fight fire safely; no matter what and sometimes “bad things happen to good people.” And it certainly does sound very similar to the YH Fire SAIT-SAIR.
I firmly believe in and subscribe to Brazilian researcher Maurizio Catino and his Individual Blame Logic (IBL) and Organizational Function Logic (OBL) method where both are at fault.
Catino, Maurizio. 2008. ‘A Review of Literature: Individual Blame vs. Organizational Function Logic in Accident Analysis.’ Journal of Contingencies and Crisis Management 16(1):
Catino notes that most safety experts believe that IBL, which seeks to allocate blame, can lead to scapegoating of one individual and impede identification of means of prevention that would come from a more systematic understanding of the many factors leading to the accident. OFL, on the other hand, seeks to identify organizational and structural factors that create conditions under which an accident is likely. OFL proponents argue that “blame culture, reinforced by a certain type of legal action, becomes the first obstacle to the creation of greater safety.” And so, the focus on wrongfulness of individual decisions inherent in traditional negligence doctrine can be counterproductive.
Friedman, Ezra (2018) SHARING RESPONSIBILITY INSTEAD OF ALLOCATING BLAME: REFORMING TORTS AND REDUCING ACCIDENTS Univ. of Illinois Law Review
( https://illinoislawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Friedman.pdf )
Gary Olson says
Well…I wasn’t going to post again but wouldn’t you know it, I read the discussion between RTS and The Woodsman and I have gotten sucked in again.
The following is an incomplete draft of a piece I wrote the other day for to publish here, but then decided I wasn’t going to publish it, but now I need to jump in and support The Woodsman because HE IS RIGHT AND RTS IS WRONG…AGAIN.
I am have been very interested in the discussion below among sever people so I just had to jump in with my opinions on the subject. I have been refraining from posting because I am on sabbatical but the posting of the link to the article by Robert Much by RTS was enough to also bring me here today. The reason I haven’t been posting is because I don’t have anything new to add to the process that will help explain the specific reason why the GMIHC left the black and broke almost all of the protocols that have been created to keep wildland firefighters safe over more than 100 years of organized wildland firefighting in the U.S. by land management agencies, specifically the U. S. Forest Service.
And I don’t have anything new to add to that process today either, but I do have some random thoughts on WF safety protocols and my own interpretation of those protocols and how I implemented them in the real world of fighting fire on the front line as a hotshot crew supervisor for 8 years.
I do have one new thing to add to our on going general discussion however, and that is to answer the question poised by Sonny some time back while he and Joy were discussing my own father’s death. I didn’t even read everything they wrote but I did scan it and I caught the question regarding the date of his death. The reason I didn’t read what they wrote is because it is to painful for me to read and hurts to much. I will eventually read everything and even write about it in my book because the topic is important to be and I believe his death can be directly linked to the deaths of our crew in many ways. But I have to do it in small increments so as not to be completely overwhelmed with grief. I don’t know how the loved ones of the crew can follow this thread, I assume some of them are, but most probably aren’t because it must certainly be overwhelmingly painful. I can see the attraction to just accepting the Big Lie perpetuated by so many regarding how and under what circumstances the crew perished to become not only the most catastrophic single event in WF history, but also the most inexplicable and the event that should have been theoretically impossible to occur. But…taking the easy way out won’t help keep current and future WF from dying under similar circumstances because as I like to write ad nauseam, “Once is an anomaly (the Loop Fire of 1966) twice is a coincidence (the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976), but three times is a pattern (the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013).
For example, both my father and the crew died providing for their families or for the families they hoped to have someday by building their resumes one day at a time in order to better their lives and opportunities for a good job with adequate pay and benefits that could support a family which most of them didn’t have at the time. And all of them died furthering the goals of their employers that would benefit others while engaged in what were both inherently dangerous jobs where a making a mistake at work can and does have catastrophic consequences. Furthermore, I believe the most relative connection is that my father and our crew died in the “danger zone” to borrow a phrase that was made popular in our pop culture by the movie, “Top Gun.”
The danger zone is a term I just made up to help explain what safety at work means to me and is self explanatory. The second phrase I am going to adopt to help explain my understanding of WF safety is the “twilight zone.” The dictionary defines twilight as, “a conceptual area that is undefined or intermediate” or, “the period of the evening when twilight takes place, between daylight and darkness.”
Both of these definitions apply to the concept pertaining to worker safety that I am attempting to explain with this post. In fact…I have just discarded my use of the term danger zone because I think the twilight zone is more descriptive and accurate for what some WF face periodically and is where hotshots are bred by the fire gods to routinely and effectively operate in on their own without requiring any support or additional supervision. And for the purpose of this metaphor, daylight is clearly the safe zone and darkness is unmistakably the danger zone everyone should stay out of if possible unless they are really heads up and maybe even then as well?
Now that I have set the table, here is the meat of the meal or in deference to vegetarians out there, we could call it the entree and this way, the main course of our meal can be whatever you want it to be and we won’t take the risk of sickening vegetarians by the thought of eating rotting animal flesh. I mean all meat is rotting animal flesh…right? It just depends on the degree and what specific stage it is in when you actually consume it. Omaha Steaks always advertise their most popular box of decaying and rotting beef on TV this time of the year and it comes with 4 (2.88 once) Potatoes au Gratin and 4 (4 ounce) Caramel Apple Tartlets. Anyway…they advertise their 4 (5 ounce) Filet Mignons are aged for 21 days and that makes them so tender they melt in your mouth. A process that the natural enzymes in the meat to break down the tissue through dry aging. So by eating aged meat, you are chewing on meat that has been given a head start in decomposing…yummy.
My brother, who died from cancer a few years ago and who I have written about many times on this thread was a fanatical vegetarian his entire adult life who liked to travel to many of the places I refused to go with him because I couldn’t take the U.S. Constitution and several guns with me to study far Eastern religions of East, South and Southeast Asia seeking to something…although it never clear to me exactly what he was looking for. Answers I guess? Although I don’t know to answers to which specific questions?
Anyway…my brother used to be a real fun guy to eat at Mexican Taquerias with because he would often discuss the rotting animal flesh I was trying to enjoy in either my Chile Colorado or Chile Verde burritos and what specific stage of decay the beef or pork was in that I was eating. What does this have to do with WF safety or the deaths of the crew? Maybe nothing…or maybe everything depending on how you apply my new metaphor to think of WF safety. And that is because all of the actions undertaken by WF in general and hotshots in particular happen in that conceptual area that is the twilight transition zone that is undefined and intermediate. And that is just like the meat we eat because it’s not from a fresh kill (daylight) like my Uncle [Mule] Skinner Slade and the cow hands used to make right in front of my horrified eyes and it isn’t rotten (darkness)….yet.
Blah…blah…blah. What does this all mean (if you have managed to stay with me this far, however unlikely that may be) to WF safety in general and hotshot fire line safety in particular? There isn’t an obvious, bright, unmistakable, clearly defined and unambiguous line in the sand out there that you shall not cross, however much those on the other side of this argument would like you to believe there is. I think most decisions I made as a hotshot crew shot caller were made in the grey darkness at dusk. The decisions that are made during the day or those made at night are easy calls.
And just for the record…I think the call made by Eric Marsh to move his crew out of the safe black and order them to hike down a brush chocked natural chimney in front of a raging wildfire of Biblical proportions over the repeated objections of his second-in-command who was the Acting Crew Boss of the GMIHC wasn’t a close call. It was criminal negligence and made during the harsh glare of bright sunlight for all to see and subsequently evaluate. That is why in spite of all of the WF safety protocols that include the 10 Standard Firefighting Rules and the 18 Situations (there were only 13 back during my time on the fire line) That Shout Watch Out, in addition to Paul Gleeson’s LCES
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/leaders_meet/interviews/leaders_PaulGleason.html LCES (Lookouts, Communication, Escape Routes and Safety Zones) concept that has become the modern foundation of WF Safety.
And just FYI…the side of the argument I come down on are the 10 Standard Firefighting Rules are just that…rules. And I interpret the 18 Situations That Shout Watch Out as guidelines. As a matter of fact, (here is where my old friend RTS goes apoplectic) I even take it one step further because I believe LCES should be the cornerstone of all WF Safety Protocols and should replace the 10 and the 18 (to use the colloquial WF culture vernacular) in their entirety.
And that is because I think the 10 and 18 are “hillbilly” to quote Sad Sack McDonough in the way they are organized and taught. In addition the 10 and the 18 are unmanageable, outdated, redundant and redundant and redundant, and because they are to specific and overly broad at the same time. And mostly just because the 10 and 18 checklists are to much for the average WF to memorize and effectively apply under real world conditions on the fire line.
The rules aren’t hillbilly, but they way they are taught are as outdated as the cartoon figures that are found throughout WF training. All of the concepts capsulated in the 10 and the 18 need to be taught, but not by the numbers and not by rout. I know I have gone back and forth over the past 6 years on this thread while trying to discuss the very complex issue of WF safety. I have gone back and forth mostly because whenever I tried to “keep it real” both RTS and Bob P. would double team me and because I am a very vulnerable person with a fragile ego and low self esteem. And in the end, I let them dominate me by collectively humping my head. But those days are now over, I have put my big boy panties on, hitched them up to my midsection and I’m now going to stand up for what I believe in by speaking “truth to power”, which is another phrase that is way to pretentious for me to use under normal circumstances. But…we aren’t in normal times and getting my message out requires extraordinary effort and corny phrases like “keeping it real” and “truth to power.”
Now…I need to be a little more specific and the concept I am advocating isn’t new or original. This concept was first proposed (that I know about) by Dr. Ted Putnam in his white paper, “Fire Safety: Up In Smoke.” And when I first read it many years ago it was an enlightening experience for me because that was the point in my life as a “Student Of Four Fires (most people just say, “Student Of Fire) but I have to be more specific since I only have the interest and capacity to study four fires and of course those are the Loop Fire Of 1966, the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976, the South Canyon Fire Of 1994 and finally, the worst wildland Fire in history…the Yarnell Hill Fire Of 2913. And as I have written before, this is because all I ever was or wanted to be on the fire line was a hotshot. I love and care about all wildland firefighters equally, but I love and care about hotshots more equally than all of the others.
And the reason why reading “Fire Safety: Up In Smoke was such an enlightening experience for me, was because for the first time, someone who is recognized and in my opinion, the wisest and most respected WF Safety expert in the world let me know what I believed and had been taught as a hotshot wasn’t heresy. And I wasn’t a heretic who should be burned at the stake, no matter how much some would like to do that about now.
There is however, a world of difference between what Eric Marsh et al taught Sad Sack and what I was taught. I wasn’t taught that the 10 and 13 were hillbilly, I was simply taught that they were written by management for the protection of management of what is commonly referred known as “the agencies.”
This description includes every member agency of the National Wildland Coordinating Group (NWCG) including city, county, state and federal entities. And furthermore, I was taught that the rules were there to always provide a convenient level of deniability for management and a mechanism to blame the firefighter while hanging them out to dangle in the wind. Or at least we believed that was the primary purpose of all of the WF safety protocols. No matter what happened to go wrong, there were enough rules written and they were vague enough that those protocols allowed the managers of not only the agencies but the overhead of the specific fire in question to say in effect, “It wasn’t our fault, we told them not to do that”, all while blaming the lower level firefighters. You can learn more about the NWCG at the following link and most likely, they will always be multiple rules and guidelines that were violated in any given situation that is closely examined in every investigation.
And because Dr. Putnam’s white paper isn’t really that long, I am going to copy it here so I can point out some of the specific areas I found so groundbreaking and put into organized words, what had been up until then just a unorganized jumbled concept floating around in my cerebellum where my cognitive (“the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses”) functions most likely reside. I have added my own thoughts in key areas in all caps and in parentheses. And that isn’t because I am SHOUTING, it’s because I don’t know how to differentiate my thoughts from those of Dr. Putnam.
THIS PAPER ACCURATELY CAPTURES AND PORTRAYS THE WORLD OF FIRE THAT I KNEW AND LOVED. AND OF COURSE YOU CAN TAKE THE DESCRIPTION OF HOW THE ENTURE SYSTEM WORKS AND MULTIPLY IT TIMES X FACTIR FOR HOTSHOTS LIKE EVERTHING RELATED TO HOTSHOTS
HIGH OCTANE, HYPER DRIVEN, ON STEROIDS, “We will live up to the hype or die trying.” Gallows humor, Fred and I disagree. Death Head Hotshots. (A fictitious crew I have made in order to illustrate safety issues) of course Fred disagrees with both the name and the concept.
Gary Olson says
Part II
FIRE SAFETY: UP IN SMOKE?
Dr. Ted Putnam, Ph. D. Psychologist
“The safety record of the 2000 fire season was a good one and a credit to firefighters. Ironically, this was due partly to the intensity of the fires. Aggressive tactics were clearly imprudent in the face of massive flame fronts and aberrant fire behavior. These conditions dictated (and justified) a conservative approach where firefighters spent less time in harm’s way.
So the 2000 safety record was more a function of the fires themselves rather than any objective organizational changes that made the fireline a safer place.
In fact, there remain inherent safety problems in wildland firefighting that go unaddressed and which make substantive safety reform impossible.
While a Forest Service employee, I investigated many of the entrapments that occurred in the past twenty plus years. In my early years as a firefighter I was told and believed that fire management provided safety fixes after “the ashes had settled.” Because of that belief, I helped cover up the real causes of the fatalities on the Battlement Fire in 1976. I bit my tongue on many more, including South Canyon in 1994 and Sheppard Mountain in 1996, due to promised improvements. As the promises faded, I began to speak up at firefighter conferences because if fire safety is ever going to be “fixed,” the real causes of fatalities, injuries and near misses must be clearly understood. If organizational safety practices and training are based on the “official records,” which many times are not based on the facts, how effective can these practices be?
In this article I outline six areas in which firefighter safety has improved little, despite clear lessons like South Canyon.
Lack of fire management support for human factors.
When looking at the fatalities, accidents, near misses and unsafe actions, fire organizations historically have focused on physical causes and ignored mental and cultural causes – the human factors. The rule of thumb among safety experts in the military and private sector is that only 20 percent of the causal factors are physical, while 80 percent are mental or cultural. If safety is to be No.1, on the fireline why have wildland fire organizations suppressed or minimized the mental and cultural causes of accidents?
Recent examples where human factors (mental and cultural) aspects of accidents were largely ignored includes: (1) mediocre entrapment investigations, many of which involve cover-up’s and misinformation (South Canyon, Shepard Mountain); (2) forcing human factor concerns to be removed from the 1998 Butler et al. report; (3) under funding then canceling the human factors effort at the Missoula Technology and Development Center (MTDC), including the human factors newsletter (USDI, 2000); (4) the Center for Lessons Learned at Marana tracks only physical causes (USDI, 2000); (5) the new incident reporting system tracks physical and equipment causes, but ignores human factors; (6) failure to adopt Crew Resource Management (CRM) for firefighters after it was recognized nationally as a need that had the potential to reduce accidents and fatalities by 50 percent. (I don’t know enough about how the current system operates to know if there have been any improvements in the areas identified since this paper was written, but I think there have been in the human factors category?)
Why safety is not No. 1.
Safety has never has been No. 1 and may never be. What then are the behaviors that compete with safety? After many discussions with firefighters and 35 years in the fire organization, in my opinion they are in order of potency and priority:
1. Putting the fire out. We are a can-do organization. This is the most heavily reinforced behavior on the fireline and most likely the leading cause of fatalities. See South Canyon Fire (USDI, 1994) and Sadler Fire (USDI, 1999) for examples.
2. Financial concerns. Personal financial incentives, while necessary, too often bias firefighters to work to the point of mental and physical deterioration, making accidents more imminent. This is more likely a cause of injury and near misses than fatalities. Fire managers and Incident Management Teams often under spend to save money in initial fire outbreaks. This results in insufficient resources attacking the fire. This alone or in combination with factor No. 1 puts firefighters at risk and can lead to fatalities (South Canyon, 1994).
3. Self and/or crew image. Who am I and who are we if we fail to put out the fire? We love to discuss and take pride in what we do. We don’t brag about the one that got away or the one we chose not to fight (but we should when it involves excessive risk, i.e. the Sadler Fire). Esprit de corps can turn into excessive risk, especially when the public, media, and politicians are watching (Weick, 1995).
4. Agency/ Fire Organization image. The argument here is similar to self and crew image. We strive to accomplish No. 1 so the image of all firefighters is enhanced. This factor is more potent when we try to minimize an agency’s causal connections to fatalities such as BLM fire management on the South Canyon Fire (Maclean, 1999). Interagency cooperation is the reason cited for allowing BLM smokejumpers to use inherently more dangerous parachutes (ram-airs) on USFS lands when much safer parachutes are available (rounds). This factor, image before safety, can be a primary barrier to fire organizations becoming learning organizations. See Karl Weick’s book: Sensemaking in Organizations and Peter Senge’s The Fifth Discipline.
5. Safety. Here safety is the concern for self and others. For safety to move up the list firefighters and agencies must look more closely at the higher reinforced factors and how to reduce or neutralize their potency. Firefighters must learn to think more clearly and then take the relevant factors into account before committing to strategies and tactics. And they must mindfully review the associated risks, especially following changing fire behavior and weather conditions. See my related article Mindful Of Safety (2001) recommending the practice of mindfulness.
Failure to change. A reoccurring factor in many accidents and fatalities is the failure to change strategies and tactics when fire behavior changes. Incident Action Plans often are mindlessly followed and push others into unsafe, potentially life-threatening actions (Shepard Mountain Fire, 1996) even though the conditions they were based upon no longer exist. This factor is often more potent than No. 5.
No one can follow the 10 standard fire orders.
It is humanly impossible to follow the 10 Standard Fire Orders and still fight the fire. How did this come about? What do we mean when we say, “We don’t bend them, we don’t break them”? In discussing these issues with fire managers, they say the orders pertain to each and every firefighter-not just to the crew superintendent or the crew collectively. Since no one can follow them, it is not surprising that investigations into fatalities and accidents show some or all were violated. Using the 10 Standard Fire Orders and the 18 Situations that Shout Watchout is still SOP for wildland fire entrapment investigations (Sadler Fire, 1999) even though such methodology is considered archaic and much better methodologies exist (Munson, 2000).
What is a personal example? Look at order No. 5: “Obtain current information on fire status”. The behavioral problem here is that as soon as you make any fire observation it becomes a static conceptual memory and a moment later it is no longer current. A picky detail? Not when you consider how your mind processes information. We make decisions on the past remembered fire behavior (concepts) rather than the current fire behavior. Normally the direct perception of the actual fire behavior is short circuited by the concept, which has only a fraction of the information of a direct perception (de Charms, 1998). Most of the time we are unaware of the conceptual substitution and the corresponding gaps in our perception. To learn more about the underlying psychology refer to Daniel Goleman’s Vital Lies, Simple Truths and Karl Weick’s Sensemaking in Organizations.
Now consider a management example. Whenever I hear a fire manager say we don’t bend or break the 10 Standard Fire Orders, I issue them the challenge to identify which, if any, should never be broken. Their normal answer is all of them. But if I clarify, that the same fire order then becomes the basis for never engaging a fire and the basis for disengaging the fire if it can’t be followed, they go strangely silent. To date I have not had a single Fire Order recommended by anyone, once the clarification and added contingency are stated. Clearly, fire management wants and enjoys a system where they can seldom be held accountable.
Most wildland fire entrapment investigations involve covering up evidence. Often these actions are done deliberately but sometimes they are done out of ignorance. Why do we do this? Deliberate reasons include: (1) other organizations do it (such as structural fire departments, the military, etc.). (2) The agency will be sued if we don’t. (3) Key individuals have suffered enough. (4) The agency will look bad. (5) We’ll correct the situation when “the ashes have settled,” i.e., South Canyon IMRT effort. Cover-ups, involving ignorance, include: (1) sending untrained people to investigate the entrapment (a favorite of wildland agencies). (2) Don’t send someone who is getting wise to all the ways to cover-up evidence (as happened to me after the South Canyon Fire). (3) Send interested parties as investigators (biased towards covering up) (USDI, 1994). (4) Send only people with firefighting expertise, as that is primarily what they will notice and report (no psychologist or sociologist allowed). (5) Removing evidence before the team arrives (another favorite). (6) Ineffective interviewing skills that lead to short, incomplete accounts, i.e., lack of sufficient detail to understand the underlying causes. We then report all the superficial old favorite causes and can recommend the perennial “back to the basics” (South Canyon Fire, USDI, 1994). If it’s not reported, you don’t have to fix it and can’t be held responsible for similar future occurrences.
Active concern for safety is punished.
This is usually passive punishment (withholding something normal or positive). An example of passive punishment is when I was no longer allowed to go on entrapment investigations when I did not sign the South Canyon report. Sometimes punishment is subtle, like labeling safety recommendations and presentations as “Mickey Mouse.” This safety attitude is very visible organizationally since safety is poorly positioned, funded and staffed at all levels of government showing it’s true importance with top management.
We are a long way from becoming a learning organization.
Senge (1990) defined a learning organization as one “where people continually expand their capacity to create the results they truly desire, where new and expansive patterns of thinking are nurtured, where collective aspiration is set free, and where people are continually learning how to learn together”.
We will continue to put people at risk if we never learn from our mistakes. Multiple fatality reports, such as South Canyon, look all too similar to those generated as long as 40 years ago; a sure sign of management failure. A persistent and vital need identified as a remedial action for more than 40 years is an incident reporting system (similar to the airlines). If safety is to ever be No.1 why has such an easy remedial action taken so long to implement? The data generated by such an IRS would become a baseline for assessing if organizational changes reduce accident frequency. Both the incident reporting system and the need to become a learning organization were identified in the first human factor conference in Missoula (USDA, 1995) as well as the follow-up 1999 conference in Reno (USDI, 2000). Fire management has also been slow to implement Tri Data recommendations, which are a large part of what has been learned so far to make fire culture safer.
Summary
Currently the fire organization is not very proactive in making safety a major influence in strategies and tactics. Getting the job done, money and image concerns push firefighters into taking excessive risk. What is needed organizationally is truthful fire investigations, an honest reporting system that tracks physical, mental, cultural and social aspects of firefighting and a willingness to become a learning organization. If safety is ever to become No. 1 in the fire community then the fire community must be willing to spend more time, money and effort to make it No. 1. The fire community must get beyond its superficial practices like saying over and over again that safety is No. 1 without any true, longer-term, institutionalized commitment. Part of this commitment should involve adopting CRM throughout the organization, following-up on the Tri-Data contract recommendations and promoting clearer thinking through the practice.”
Risk a lot to save a lot is an completely alien concept and complete and total anathema to to everything I was I was taught to fall back as far as I needed to in order to be safe and backfire the next drainage or one of the ones after that. I never gave a thought to somebody’s slice of heaven on s bun in the wikdland urban interface where they should have built three tree with doors and windows in the first place.
So…to sum up my opinion regarding wildland firefighter safety on the fire line make no mistake about it, the system is designed to reward and promote the bold and punish while passing over the timid. I agree with everything Dr. Putnam wrote in the preceding white paper. That’s the system and culture that I knew and loved. It is the height of hypocrisy to pretend it was any different and most likely still is with some slight modifications around the edges.
And as I have written many times, I always colored inside the lines but that isn’t the issue. The real question is…where were those lines? Wildland firefighter supervisors and managers really earn their money while making the hard calls, the decisions that are made in that spectrum of light between sunset and nightfall.
Oh…and one more thing. With that kind of latitude in a freewheeling environment within which to operate, just how far off all of the standard WF charts and graphs, while simultaneously going beyond any known datum point of acceptable and condoned behavior do you think Eric Marsh had to go in order to earn the distinction of being universally condemned by the WF culture for making the biggest blunder in our history? Marsh’s decisions and actions on the Yarnell Hill Fire shocked us to our core while rocking our world to its very bedrock and left us dumbfounded in disbelief as we stumbled around in the pitch black night vainly searching as we grouped for some valid explanation to the inexplicable that doesn’t seem to exist in this world. Pretty darn far I would have to surmise.
Gary Olson says
And just as a reminder, the reason I objected to RTS posting an article about WF safety by Robert Much is because he is the fraud and phony who was called in to Bill Bucks’s office on the Mighty Coconino where he was told Buck’s real inner thoughts on why the Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew Boss, in addition to two crew members were burned to death on the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976 and a squad boss was severely burned, but he choose to omit that information from the official report and thereby helped to write a false, fictitious and fraudulent federal document in violation of 18 USC, 1001 because under the law, an omission is treated the same as a lie.
Buck told him the real reason why those men died, they were living the official motto of the Death Head Hotshots, “We will live up to the hype…or die trying.”
Gary Olson says
Correction, “Robert Mutch.”
And once I pointed that fact out to Mutch in an email, he immediately stopped all further communication with me regarding the Battlement Creek Fire which he had begun so he could “learn more” about the fire from my first hand observations from that day and what else I knew about what Mormon Lake was doing on the fire.
Woodsman says
Gary said:
“Oh…and one more thing. With that kind of latitude in a freewheeling environment within which to operate, just how far off all of the standard WF charts and graphs, while simultaneously going beyond any known datum point of acceptable and condoned behavior do you think Eric Marsh had to go in order to earn the distinction of being universally condemned by the WF culture for making the biggest blunder in our history? Marsh’s decisions and actions on the Yarnell Hill Fire shocked us to our core while rocking our world to its very bedrock and left us dumbfounded in disbelief as we stumbled around in the pitch black night vainly searching as we grouped for some valid explanation to the inexplicable that doesn’t seem to exist in this world. Pretty darn far I would have to surmise.”
Good point. To put it into even more perspective, apparently many of the SW crews had the opinion GM was basically an accident waiting to happen. See the “final link” quote from a superintendent heard from at a staff ride. How’s that for double-shaking our core?
Gary Olson says
Pretty darn bad I would have to surmise. Thanks for repeating the link, I missed it somewhere?
And if this program had a correction feature as WTKTT has pointed out before, I would have more specifically written, “just how far off all of the standard WF SAFETY charts and graphs, while simultaneously going beyond any known datum point of acceptable and condoned behavior ON THE FIRE LINE do you think Eric Marsh had to go in order to earn the distinction of being universally condemned by the WF culture for making the biggest blunder in our history?”
Gary Olson says
Wait…where is that link?
Woodsman says
It’s a quote not a link. Sorry. Hotshots superintendents said at a staff ride that they saw it coming and peer pressure didn’t work, etc. RTS can quote it I’m sure…after he recovers from the trauma of Putnam’s crown jewel, Safety, Up In Smoke, was quoted. 🙂
Gary Olson says
I remember that…thanks. And RTS has written many similar things over the past more than six years and I believe him.
And just in case anyone is wondering how I came up with the name “Death Head Hotshots” as the name for a fictional crew to help illustrate some of the fire line safety points I want to make, it’s not completely original.
RTS and his crew already used a rendition for a gag T-shirt (he was kind enough to send me one) for the Murdoch Basin Fire Of 1990 that is similar to the original illustration from a OFFICIAL USFS FIRE SAFETY VIDEO!
I mean…c’mon, this is absolutely AWESOME. My next challenge coin is going to be based on this logo, I will let you know when I am taking pre orders!
Standards For Survival training video image at about 9:22 spot and all throughout the rest of the video at fatality wildfires
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=44aLbVed9Ds
I mean…I was so wrong to criticize the use of cartoon figures in so much WF training because this one is totally AWESOME! I am going to use the exact image for my crew logo. I’m going to make up T-shirts as well, “Honorary Member, Death Head Hotshots, “We will live up to the hype…or die trying!”
It’s goin’ to be absolutely AWESOME!
Gary Olson says
Question: So Gary…how do you think the challenge coin, t-shirts, patches and hats you are going to make up using the Death Head Hotshots logo are going to turn out?
Answer: FREAKIN’ AWESOME MAN…FREAKIN’ AWESOME!
Question: Gary…don’t you think you should be working on your book instead of wasting your time and money taking a trip down this particular rabbit hole?
Answer: Yeah…I guess so? Party pooper!
charlie says
I thought to post this for friends and wild land fire fighters in the outback. If you have down time such as we watched the GMHS crew killing time for a long while and tossing rocks for a bit of entertainment–I thought these guys in places they could find a tektite or meteorite–and some are more valuable than their weight in gold. A small ounce meteorite could be worth more or less than 1200 buckeroos–shit you could buy a few rounds with that. It would also supplement the puny wage you are paid for the dangerous work you do.
96% of all meteorites that fall are stones, not irons–but it turns out that about 90% of those found are irons since they are black and heavy and easily seen and identified. Irons will always be strongly magnetic and if you grind a bit on them you will see silvery specks of nickle metal dispersed about. Just about all meteorites, stones or irons have nickle content–earth rocks are very rare to contain nickle.
The trouble with stone meteorites is that the generally black shiny fusion crust soon erodes away leaving a stone that fits in with earth rocks in appearance. But when you see a stone that has a black usually crazed surface –maybe mostly weathered off but easily seen then you could have a meteorite and if a Mars one only 224 are around to date–you hit a damn good jack pot there. Most will be common chrondites but they are valuable as well and plenty of scientists and others are willing to pay to get to study these things.
So I will share this e-mail I had sent to Joy since I know she is always interested in rocks–space–UFO photos and other interests that give her a little respite for the fire fighting and retardant abuse investigations.
Joy, I did check my work and this time work more consistent and carefully using two different digital scales that are accurate to .01 gm. That is plenty to get an accurate reading for Specific Gravity –with checking my work and more care I came out with 2.48 SG which puts it as a Tektite for certain. The upper limits are at about 2.52 so it is quite a bit under the upper limits of known Tektites. Agate runs about 2.60 and Quartz a bit heavier at 2.65. The Quartz and Agate I did by my method and they check with the book figures so I know my results are valid.
Tektites vary in Specific Gravity to a low of about 2.3 to a high of 2.52 according to the chart I am looking at on SG of Tektites. But this tektite is in a high range only seen in Javanites that range up to 2.495. And as I understand the Java Crater has not been discovered but believed to be in the range of what Chicxulub would be from here. The only Chicxulub Tektites that they think are tectites are some small beads in clay so nothing that you could have large enough to easily identify as a tektite. Well this will be a big news story if it plays out as it should because this is certainly a tektite and nothing that has ever been found or known in this area.
Bediasites are found in Texas now and again but this is out of that range and also the Specific Gravity Range does not ragne this high–they have 469 specimens listed range is 2.329-2.433 while Javanites 68 specimens tested at 2.396-2.495 making them averaging the densest of the tektites. So you see 2.48 SG puts this tektite right in that range and also in the distance graph for the Chicxulub event 65 MY ago. The next thing will be paying that guy up in Socorro to date this and if it dates right by their equipment to about 65my then this will be one sought after tektite–either way it identifies as a tektite and whatever date comes of it if not the Chicxulub then they will be hunting an unknown crater.
You might like to know that day I had old Shiek of Geronimo hanging around so I told the good Spirits I was tired of looking for meteorites and not coming up with one so I asked to be directed to one. Well would you not know I soon hit upon that tektite–immediately knew it to be one–and said well Tektites can also be considered to be a meteorite though originating from craters on earth. I was happy with the find but thought the Spirit world was leading me along a bit since I had in mind a Mars or Moon thing. Ain’t it good though and I smile–Thank you Irish Gods and Jesus-But I don’t like heights nor entertain the idea of a saucer ride–I was always glad to get off those aluminum jobs men glue together–and I don’t intend to walk out on that Grand Canyon thing they built while we were there. I will leave that to the astronauts.
Happy trails and may you find a good one.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Brit Rosso was forced to take early retirement almost a year ago, in January of 2019, and his position at WFLLC is still vacant.
Here is a list of the current STAFF at the WFLLC, and which positions are still VACANT…
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/aboutus
——————————————————————————————
WFLLC Center Director: Vacant
Program Assistant: Vacant
Assistant Director: Alex Viktora (520) 799 8748
Writer/Editor: Paul Keller (503) 622 4861
Analyst: Travis Dotson (520) 468 1618
Field Operations Specialist: Breanne Orcasitas (520) 799 8761
—————————————————————————————–
Woodsman says
WTKTT,
I’m having trouble finding the info about Rosso being “forced” to take early retirement. It’s not that I don’t believe you (i do), I just want to see it for myself. I didn’t know this happened. Thanks
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( WFLLC )
Hosted by the National Park Service
“Two More Chains” – Fall, 2018 Issue
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/viewdocument/two-more-chains-fall-2018
Summary of the Fall, 2018 Issue of “Two More Chains”…
——————————————————————————–
Traumatic Transitions
How to cope and navigate through changes and their associated dangers. Brit Rosso, OUTGOING Director of the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center, shares his firsthand insights into how to prepare yourself for moving through difficult transitions.
——————————————————————————-
From the Fall, 2018 issue itself…
——————————————————————————-
Traumatic Transitions
Article by WFLLC writer: Travis Dotson
Brit Rosso is the Director of the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center — but not for long.
Brit is retiring in January 2019, and not by choice.
This winter Brit gets the old “golden boot” — the federal wildland fire mandatory retirement.
This is a big transition. So while we still have Brit, we wanted to get his perspective on big transitions. You might be surprised where we end up
( Interview with Brit Rosso about his upcoming forced retirement )
——————————————————————————
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
National Wildfire Coordinating Group ( NWCG )
Risk Management Committee
Winter Meeting, NIFC Boise ID
October 30, 2018 through November 1, 2018
Meeting Minutes
https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/committee-meeting-notes/rmc-mt-2018-10-30.pdf
On PDF page 8 of those NWCG meeting minutes…
————————————————————————-
Brit Rosso will be retiring in January 2019.
————————————————————————-
joy a collura says
https://youtu.be/LmSyIwPsOXY
You have to really smile … we do not have a Congress Independent in my town so you know that I am aware of … but Iraqi is now interested in Yarnell Hill Fire … you have to take a moment to go watch this video or at least hit like on the comment area –
joy a collura says
here is the link to the project-
https://globaltiesarizona.org/event/firefighting-in-the-us-ivlp-project-for-iraq/
joy a collura says
oops- wrong link:
http://www.globaltiesdetroit.org/events/list/Iraq6#966
joy a collura says
Jeff and them are gonna explain the 2013 YH Fire-
I had to laugh
will it follow the SAIT – SAIR???
Joy A. Collura says
No. It was Willis and Palm who were at Yarnell showing the Iraqi Firefighters about Yarnell🔥 🇮🇶
More to be shown …
charlie says
I had thought to desist from posting for a while since generally my posts are from the view point of a non-professional fire fighter, often some off the line as well. However information from Joy tells me that Gerald Lawson had passed away at Yarnell. His wife had developed a serious illness after the wild land fire dumps of retardant. Joy and I would often see them at the local restaurant–very congenial people and has served in the ministry as well. As it was we expected that she would not last long since her illness had gotten so bad she could hardly walk–Joy is trying to learn if she is passed as well.
Add to that, Pete the Miner tht most everyone knew–his rock shop and rock works were just as you topped the mountain. He was a stout and robust individual and looked to be in his late 50’s –a fellow you would expect to still be strong in his 80’s. Those retardant dumps are no respecter of persons. You may as well have a nuclear fall out on the town and I am not sure it would surpass the terrible toll this retardant toxin has taken on the Yarnellites–especially those along in age.
So honor goes to Gerald and his wife and Pete the miner–long time honorable residents of Yarnell and victims of the Yarnell retardant experiment. They will be missed along with the many other residents whom have suffered the chemical toxins of the copious secret chemical laden retardant drops.
charlie says
There are many issues to address concerning the Wild Fires of Yarnell. Most of course regard the June, 2013 wild fire that killed the 19 GMHS crew but there was also the subsequent Tenderfoot fire of June, 2016 that involved more retardant dumping and exposure to residents and the environment directly adjacent to Yarnell. These dumps were such that in many instances the retardant was even atop homes in the small community. Yarnell inhabitants were by census before the retardant exposure listed at 645. The population in only 6 years has been reduced by more than 200 residents, the deaths generally due to heart attack, cancers and lung issues. Of course we know this is highly skewed since the aver deaths of National Statistics in the US should figure out to about 6 people per year in a population of 645. Here of course we are only addressing deaths and not the many illnesses that people are down with–a goodly number I witness in the two years after the 2013 fire, including my own demise from a heart attack and subsequent ones resulting in 6 heart stents, during that period before moving away from the area.
I believe my move from the area saved my life yet after the extreme exposure to the retardant including the over 100 hikes through the retardant dumps with Joy Collura and her contacts and willingness to tour wild land fire fighters and other interested persons including media and friends of the wild land fire fighters, I personally had my lung capacity and breathing compromised to the point that I could often find myself so out of breath and with chest pains to the point I was checking into the hospital in full symptoms of more heart attacks. The result was several excursions by catheter to my heart yet the six heart stents had opened my veins up enough to find that the symptoms were due more to lung issues than heart.
But I was fortunate except that also I have since had rampant increase in skin cancers–after nine that almost all required Mohs surgery and many stitches I am still in line in the next few weeks to remove again another that has quickly advanced. I have before the fire had many cancers removed, generally by freezing with nitrogen, but never by such quickly advancing cancers and those requiring much tissue removal and many stitches. For those not familiar with Mohs surgery, it is where the doctor removes the cancer and is able to within thirty minutes or so determine whether he got it all. If not, which happened generally with me, he/she puts you back on the operating table and removes more tissue to again see if the cancer was all removed. So you might wind up with two or more cutting sessions but that is better than going home then having to return a few weeks later to again do the surgery. I am an long time hard rock miner and over two years of that was in Uranium mining so I did have much exposure to radiation. However, never until the exposure to the phosphates, ammonium and hidden and trade secret chemicals in the Phos Chek retardant had I such rampant cancer problems. The main chemicals in retardant is dangerous enough, but do you trust the hidden chemicals allowed by trade secret laws? I do not, but the politicians are happy to allow these dumps on citizens and they mostly have nothing but a high school knowledge of chemistry if any at all–and after all these billion dollar industries do help get these officials elected and add to that even lobby hell out of them. How often do these politicians have a hundred grand found in their freezers? It sometimes happens.
I am still a survivor, even after my dog shot me in the back with a 12 guage point blank range and with the right lung pierced splintered clavical, three ribs cracked and an ounce of lead shot I still carry dispersed about my chest. You might say it is a wonder, and it is but despite my injuries, I am concerned because I know that even Joy Collura in her younger age suffers illness that she does not deserve. She had hiked over 900 times with people interested in the route and reason behind the 19 deaths of the Granite Mountain Hot Shot Crew. But you must understand that neither she nor I understood the danger of hikes through retardant contaminated areas. But neither did Zack Ashoor, 29, but taxed with asthma understand, now deceased. Neither did the 200 hundred residents of Yarnell who are deceased since the retardant dumps, mostly elderly with taxed immune systems, nor the other residents there, many with illnesses they can not account for.
Now of course these are my opinions, and you are more than welcome in this free America to your own and if you like breathing and polluting the environment with this crap–have at it–the government is more than willing to provide the retardant with plenty of pretty Agent Orange looking media displays to entertain you with.
However, thousands of dead fish, dead ocean zones and sick and dead humans may they haunt these polluters. And if you think I am ignorant of the facts, go see the statistics to heart failure and other diseases our hero fire fighters suffer–much like the Yarnell guinea pig statistics.
I am one that does not like being a lab rat, yet that is how I feel I have been treated. But my ignorance was corrected once I saw that I was not the only one getting sick and I started doing some research–something anyone can do–simply go on line to start with and look at the images of thousands of dead fish on the beaches in Florida after phosphate mine leakage —the main ingredient in Phos Chek for a wake up starter.
If you study a something like 30 page documentary made by the PhD Fire Scientists Wooten and Morrison on the Yarnell Wild Fire, you will see that the retardant useless in Yarnell–the destruction was the same had no retardant been used and the advance of the fire was hindered very little if none due to the high winds. The hundreds of thousands of gallons of retardant did nothing but pollute the town and environment about it yet it did line some pockets and add to the industry giants profits. Will they give a shit about the lives and environment they tainted? Will they go visit Gary Olson, hero and long time wild land fire fighter crew boss now lying on his sick bed? I would suspect their happiness is in some grand meeting drinking wine and toasting to the uptake in stock prices of the retardant and chemical industries due to the increased wild fire incidents.
It goes without saying that the wild land fire fighter exposed to these retardant chemicals is highly underpaid, yet he does not know it no more than the Uranium Miner knew he was underpaid. He will only recognize it in time since even the young ones will eventually suffer the horrible effects of the chemicals they are exposed to. Once age takes its toll on the immune system the chemicals begin their horror works of destroying good health with heart, lung and cancer disease, often all combined. The retardant and chemical companies and Forest Officials and Political Hacks that all gain from this financially and politically will deny that the evidence as long as they can. Only those that know and suffer will front the battle to stop these disastrous retardant dumps.
One of the reasons I thought to post this morning–it is cold outside and I wanted to delay my daily hike until it warms a bit, but more that I had a person that is doing a true documentary on the Yarnell Fire deaths–I do hope he will also include some about the actual effects on the life, death and suffering of Yarnellites after the wild fires of 2013 and 2016 and the retardant inundation of that little village of mostly retired folk.
This man is connected with some very astute and well funded movie producers and was in company with a wild land fire fighter investigator and a long time wild land fire fighter official with impeccable character and indesputable wild land fire fighting credentials. Of course there is quite a long list of individuals of high standing in the wild land fire fighting community that are involved in this ongoing documentary and revelation of the truth of the fire and its causes, coverups and new revelations after the years of investigations and expositions have come to light. I was glad to speak to the issue, not as a wild land fire fighter, but as one of the actual witnesses that was there at the fire edge, watched the wild fire evolve into a mega fire and stood with Joy Collura at the very spot on the two track where the GMHS crew descended only a short time before they decended to their demise.
I am not a wild land fire fighter–my experience during my youth and only that of helping my Dad clear out debris around burning pine trees hit by lightening strikes.
He had a tent dwelling and mining tools to protect in the Burro Mountains out of Silver City, New Mexico and we managed to contain those fires by our crude methods. I have often wondered how the Forest Service Mangaged to not contain a lightening strike in an easier location to go to and even in a bouldery area less vialble than in a dry pine forest loaded with pine needles and farther from our camp than what was at Yarnell where even a two track road navagatible by quads would take you within 50 yards or so of the strike? Common sense goes a long ways, yet the education of these men that costs them many man hours and in some cases thousands of tax dollars or their own to educate them also failed them. Cowboy Rick McKinsey might have also said if you fellows can’t handle a lightning strike let us know, and I will get that old hard rock miner Tex Gilligan and we will damn sure get it out before it spreads.
But for the documentary, the world does not need my unexperienced wild land fire fighter input. This man needs the men who have hands on experience and were there when burns were being done during the Yarnell Fire.and other information pertinent to the cause of the deaths of the Yarnell Fire as well as practices they know that need to be changed that caused the needless deaths of the GMHS crew. There is so much that was avoided, redacted, and misstated in order to preserve reputations and make the incident look like and accident versus the real truth of it being negligent action that caused the killing of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots.
Any witness or person of concern that testifies in the documentary won’t be ashamed or afraid to talk the truth because they will be standing with men and women of years of wild land fire fighting experience, some with direct experience of the Yarnell fire and knowledge of the cause of death of the 19, and others with as such experience as lead investigators in wild land fire deaths that there will be no fear of retribution. Many of these men have over 20, even 30 years experience managing wild land fire crews, fighting wild land fires, smoke jumping and college degrees as well up to PhD levels so that just as an astronaut would tell your or a five star General–you know you are being spoken to from a person that has wisdom and integrity.
Some do not know that Congress passed a law that mum orders become void when they involve covering up actions that turned out to be for the pupose of covering the truth or for criminal actions. You can not be prosecuted for breaking the mum order–it is invalid under those conditions. That was why so many militalry and astronauts came forward with information concerning what they saw such as unidentified objects following them in space and what they saw while on the moon. Once the law was passed it allowed for freedom of expression–something in America that ought not be throttled anyway but a means by where by excuse of supposed National Security issues information could be hidden from public view. The tax payer is considered a security risk–and is especially if they find out they have been used as a dunce crowd and kept in the dark and lied to by the hacks using their hard earned tax dollars.
I believe if truth become known about the retardant toxins and the deaths of wild land fire fighters such as the carless causes of the 19GMHS crew, not only will the issues be addressed to stop these type deaths, but wild land and other fire fighting wages will at least triple with the health benefits absolutely available and free as first options for these men. You only have to look at Fire Fighter statics in illness and death to know they are high above the normal working person death, especially concerning heart, lung and cancer incidences. Chemical exposure is high with these men whether in wild land fires or in urban fires. Like the Uranium miner, the health factors are played down, but then profits–as Trump would say–you are a looser if you can’t show finantial gain—and environment and health is a secondary if a consideration at all. Too many have this attitude until they lie on their early death beds and realized they had believed the lies about how inert these chemicals are because they did not show their death dealing effects until that person’s immune factors were in a depleted state.
So if you want to join the many that reject the idea that 19 men died because of an accident and that retardant is really an inert chemical you can have for sprinkles on your breakfast cereal, then add your name to the list and perhaps became a live part of the new documentary that I knew would eventually evolve about the truth of the ongoing sickness and deaths of Yarnellites and the demise of 19 young brave souls at Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
I suggest a good contact is through Joy Collura and her website to be a part of the upcoming documentary or even post here –the truth will make you free but it will even do more, it will save some young lives and certainly many elder lives as well-maybe even your own friends or grandfolks.
Happy Trails around the retardant toxic zones.
charlie says
When your religi0n is money and you have little concern about the environment and what the pollutants are doing to the health of the people and the environment then you do not belong as a leader in any country. Certainly we want our folk to be financially sound and well taken care of to have a decent abode and health benefits but blatant disregard for the environment and issues involving toxins causing rampant cancer and heart disease need immediate and strong measure to cure the problem.
When our politicos and media present lies to get us into wars to protect oil at the expense of thousands of our own soldiers lives and health then those politicians and media and other people involved have committed war crimes and do deserve to stand before a world court action. My opinion, if truth would come out that starting with Trump and going to Franklin Roosevelt, these men would be war criminals–some worse than others for how they caused millions of deaths both civilian and military for reasons of economy and unjustified reasons or for reasons they had created by false flag information. Pirates used a false flag to get close to a ship acting as a friendly before they raised their Skull and Bones flag and did their actual purpose–to maime, kill, rape and plunder. The Skull and Bones flag is still flying under the guise of the American Flag in too many instances. Bernie Madoff comes in many forms and guises–nicely suited and sweet until you see the real Bernie and his cohorts.
charlie says
It seems like we could blame presidents and corporate media journalists for the situations and propaganda to divert the truth form the common masses. But they are truly bought and owned by giant corporations that operate world wide. I can tell you that if you are my employer I will have to look over your ways and in some cases even be a part of your means to provide me my living wage. If I am in a position that arguing with my boss is going to cost my children to go hungry or the loss of my home and reputation then I might fudge my real feelings to stay solvent.
When Steed argued with Marsh he knew he was entering into something he did not want to do–that is get into a situation that could and did cause the demise of himself and his crew. There was a possibility, although slim that he would get to the Helms Ranch and then possibly to Yarnell to possibly help save some burning structures. Maybe he thought there was at least a roulette spin of the pistol change that he could make it before the fire changed direction–after all Marsh had made it earlier but now the odds were slimmed by time. The roulette pistol had already been spun by Marsh so more spins meant a lesser chance to not hit the bullet–but you can die even on the first spin. Yet if you keep spinning you eventually will die.
Steed had to say boys It looks bad and a damn risky thing to do but Boss Man wants us to do it. Hell he took the risk and made it–what do you say? Hell yeah, we ain’t cowards, if he can spin the cylinder and not hit a bullet, we can too. Well if we don’t our whole outfit will look like it has suffered subordination and are derelict of duty on what we know even better than wild land fire fighting–structure fire fighting. We are game to take the risk and what the hell, these fire blankets saved us before so we can at the worse suffer some uncomfortable burn over that may injure us some but we will make it through.
Donut did not know the technicalities of fire fighting–things like simple common sense rules to keep you alive. He had no idea that fires double in velocity every 10degrees in elevation rise or that manzanita fires have no problem melting lead and reaching temperatures at 1500 degree levels and that manzanita fires take on thin fire protection blankets like bed sheets at those temperatures. He could tell you good weed from bad weed and the difference in Johhny red and Johnny black. But technical details and safety concerns belong to the bosses. He did not even know they had put him in the worse position possible for a look out and disappeared leaving him to his own devices alone and about to be killed along separate to the rest of the crew.
Yet Steed was bound like the President is to those that bought him into power. Steed had to strictly obey orders on a daily basis–even though he knew he would be the last man holding the fate of his crew. A risk of those young live under his direction–or the alternative the risk of his reputation as a fire fighter who does not take orders from superiors, something that can cause great harm to your career. The men considered him the “Greek God” of fire fighting. They trusted his judgement and if he said we can make it, but risky–they said we will go if you go. They did, they died.
The question is how do you break such group think? It is almost like a mass mind thing–despite the dangers–if one man that has respect says so, it must be so–or if it is the thing to do then we do it without question.
This is where you absolutely need a Dr. Ted Putnam and people he would involve to change things. Dr. Ted is worth a million dollars a year to educate people–15 years smoke jumping, a life saver in several instances of other men, especially those of Donut fire fighter abilities and understanding, and even a refusal to sign off as lead investigator on 14 lives that were killed during the Storm King wild land fire simply because he knew that the investigation was too cursory and did not cover the things needed to insure these situations did not recur. Despite his threat to his career he stood fast in integrity. Superiors said it was enough–the investigation had to be cut short. Time was wasting. So despite Dr. Putnam’s credentials, years of fire fighting experience and now PhD in Psychology–he was skirted and the investigation closed even at his protest. But Ted’s wisdom was true–the event repeated several times and eventually in a few short years big time at Yarnell with 19 deaths of the GMHS crew.
The truth I have written above would not be allowed on main media. John Daugherty has tasted some of the ill effects off telling the truth and exposing the godless gods that mangle the lives of people and environment so he is not one to censure unless he sees that it is a lie–and as a journalist and investigator he has a very good inherent lie detector. It is the small media outlets that are not bought out but detested by larger outlets because here truth is not throttled.
I could see when some great Journalists retired such as Dan Rather and a long time New York Times Editor–they lamented about how they were subjects of greater forces they could not oppose–their writings were not always the way they wanted to say things and things they wanted to say could not be said because they were in business and owned by corporate interests. You could not give the rest of the story if it was not allowed despite what Paul Harvey claimed.
But I must assure you, errors here are not intentional and are corrected by the expertise of many years of experiences of wild land fire fighters that have learned their wisdom by being on the fire fighting lines. When they speak, we must listen. Not to will cost the lives of more wild land fire fighters. Thanks to John and his Investigative Media you are getting the “Rest of the Story”.
Diane lomas says
Charlie says comment on December 12:
Your analysis of why GMHS left the safety of the black and followed Eric Marsh’s orders to go to BSR rings truthful to me.
I have also wondered if an analysis has been proposed what the outcome could have been if there had been no burnout in the Shrine area.
joy a collura says
Sonny- they have a winner!
Preparedness Notes for Sunday — June 30, 2019
JAMES WESLEY RAWLES JUNE 30, 2019
SurvivalBlog Writing Contest
Today we present another entry for Round 83 of the SurvivalBlog non-fiction writing contest. The more than $12,000 worth of prizes for this round include:
First Prize:
A $3,000 gift certificate towards a Sol-Ark Solar Generator from Veteran owned Portable Solar LLC. The only EMP Hardened Solar Generator System available to the public.
A Gunsite Academy Three Day Course Certificate. This can be used for any one, two, or three day course (a $1,095 value),
A course certificate from onPoint Tactical for the prize winner’s choice of three-day civilian courses, excluding those restricted for military or government teams. Three day onPoint courses normally cost $795,
DRD Tactical is providing a 5.56 NATO QD Billet upper. These have hammer forged, chrome-lined barrels and a hard case, to go with your own AR lower. It will allow any standard AR-type rifle to have a quick change barrel. This can be assembled in less than one minute without the use of any tools. It also provides a compact carry capability in a hard case or in 3-day pack (an $1,100 value),
Two cases of Mountain House freeze-dried assorted entrees in #10 cans, courtesy of Ready Made Resources (a $350 value),
A $250 gift certificate good for any product from Sunflower Ammo,
American Gunsmithing Institute (AGI) is providing a $300 certificate good towards any of their DVD training courses.
Second Prize:
A gift certificate from Quantum Harvest LLC (up to a $2,200 value) good for 12% off the purchase of any of their sun-tracking models, and 10% off the purchase price of any of their other models.
A Front Sight Lifetime Diamond Membership, providing lifetime free training at any Front Sight Nevada course, with no limit on repeating classes. This prize is courtesy of a SurvivalBlog reader who prefers to be anonymous.
A Glock form factor SIRT laser training pistol and a SIRT AR-15/M4 Laser Training Bolt, courtesy of Next Level Training, which have a combined retail value of $589,
A Three-Day Deluxe Emergency Kit from Emergency Essentials (a $190 value),
Two 1,000-foot spools of full mil-spec U.S.-made 750 paracord (in-stock colors only) from w w w.TOUGHGRID.c o m (a $240 value).
An assortment of products along with a one hour consultation on health and wellness from Pruitt’s Tree Resin (a $265 value).
Third Prize:
Three sets each of made-in-USA regular and wide-mouth reusable canning lids. (This is a total of 300 lids and 600 gaskets.) This prize is courtesy of Harvest Guard (a $270 value)
A Royal Berkey water filter, courtesy of Directive 21 (a $275 value),
Expanded sets of both washable feminine pads and liners, donated by Naturally Cozy (a $185 retail value),
Two Super Survival Pack seed collections, a $150 value, courtesy of Seed for Security, LLC,
Mayflower Trading is donating a $200 gift certificate for homesteading appliances.
Round 83 ends on July 31st, so get busy writing and e-mail us your entry. Remember that there is a 1,500-word minimum, and that articles on practical “how to” skills for survival have an advantage in the judging.
————————————————————
Thursday, December 5, 2019 8:58 PM, James Rawles wrote:
The winner of Round 47 was Sophie for “Prepping the Texas Cowboy Way”, posted on July 12, 2013.
Regards,
– Jim Rawles
———————————————-
h t t p s://survivalblog.c o m/prepping-the-texas-cowboy-way-by-sophie/
Charlie says
Fact is stranger than fiction–that sounded interesting–something I did not do but I can imagine that there were some interesting stories.
I will send you some UFO pictures and you know I am about the worst photographer with a cell phone with my fumbling manner. Some of us old guys can manipulate a slide rule that kids say what the hell is that thing. We even know how to use a logarithm book and that book is a relic now. But oddly trying to manipulate a cell phone to make it take photos is not so easily done with all the little hard to see do dads on it–so I usually take a photo of myself first then fumble around trying to figure out how to get the damn thing to photograph the other way. I once turned the phone around and tried to punch the button on the other side–whew kids are so quick with these. But computers and phones are getting better and soon I will just have to say take the photo the other way not my own–government has enough of them already–you will give them a photo every time you go to town here since you must check in at the border patrol station on I-10. What ever happened to the probable cause to stop law? I-10 is beginning to look like coming out of Juarez–a log jam of cars lined up=sometimes for a mile. Shit talk about Trump making America Great Again–this is America and wouldn’t it be great to use a freeway without having to be checked to see if you are an illegal here on a main Interstate? If they can’t catch these illegals at the border or the dope runners then what the hell are you going to gain by a few illegals you catch at these points. Once in a while I see them having some car pulled over that the dog sniffed and it is usually college aged kids that likely were smoking a joint and now will have to spend time in the hoosegal. The real runners are smart and get around these points with a hell of a lot of better methods than playing a fool and running though a check point like that with all its tech and dogs and ten government agents.
There are in fact dirt routes around and I sometimes take them–never stopped but I did once watch some U hauls going around on a rough dirt road and the border patrolman that was on the road did not bother to inspect me or that outfit behind me. I wondered if there was a collusion there but what the hell–I am not one to interfere in federal business concerning dope. They likely are not Iran Contra affairs and if they are you best leave it alone. The CIA is very unforgiving for any exposures and Jerry Tefoya, who was a former friend got 9 years after shooting that dissident Arab in the eye with a 22 pistol up in Colorado. He kept telling them he was CIA–but they did not know him. Well I did and I can tell you that former Green Beret whose Dad was New Mexico State Cop was not a bullshitter and but he and his buddies were serious animals. Fact is always stranger than fiction because we can’t expect it to be the way it often turns out. Of course Jerry got a decent sentence even though the CIA denied they knew him–and he was soon out and working with some small news paper. I don’t know if he is still around –a few years older than me but I would not want to mess with him or his buddies even these days.
So Happy Trails–And may God and Trump do a good job at making America greater–God forbid we have anymore golf courses unless you do it right–desert sand dunes–we have enough in New Mexico and Arizona–no grass or use of water and no pesticides, herbicides –just insert those flags and glass cups and yell fore. Hire some homeless guy to clean the cups now and again and drag those bags around for the snoot or non-snoot. It can be done and the greatestest mass of Americans will say great and if Trump does it that way he might even gain votes. Just a suggestion–and I did find a golf ball 3 miles south of me so who the hell is playing desert golf?
Happy trails and desert golfing.
Charlie says
OK so I have been watching UFO situation here but I knew about it and told my true experience. It was strange that the final false flag event such as we saw at the Twin Towers will according to Werner Van Braun on his death bed–would be a staged alien invasion that would bring in the final total control of nations under one small ruling body. Now why on his death bed would Werner–a man with intelligence and genius who had worked under Hitler and understood methods and governments beside his Rocket Science–say something like that?
Of course the dollar bill has in Latin plain language for the Americans to understand–NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM- and above the pyramid the all seeing eye–the gods that will rule to complete the pyramid. So when Bush family would say as nearly every president has said–New World Order–they were just quoting your dollar. And who are these gods that already have a good hold on the world–just not quite done with the finishing touches. These of course are the 1% you never much hear about –those Rothsheild, Morgan, Rockefeller types who own the banks, giant corporations and world banks. And some of us really believe we are a democracy and our vote make one iota of difference. Well it does if in your mind think it does but only for you and not the way the 1% have it figured out.
I kind of liked how the French president gave some working over of Trump–and Trump knows the powers that be can and will tone him down–He is a little cog with a big ego.
But other than that I was looking how the powers that be–Australian and British in the New Guinea area had torn into the little country stealing the resources and leaving behind an open pit mine and mess ruining the water and environment for a people there and leaving them in poverty and worse straits with nothing to show for the rape of their country but a copper and chemical laden river that is now devoid of fish and even had extincted the flying fox. Australia is pumping some money back in to their credit but also they want to reopen the mine while the indigenous people are generally against it. Aren’t we a nice country since we do as much and go into countries with the same methods and never mind the killing of thousands of our own young men and women–and especially never mind killing millions of Arabs because we “need?” their oil. And our lying ass corporate bankers and oil men are so damn worried they will be found out because the technology to divorce us from such murderous acts and destruction that threatens the life of the planet is known. Their refusal and knowledge puts them on the high crimes list of war criminals no better than we saw at the Nuremburg Nazi trials. I heard Bush accuse the Iraqui’s to be equal to Nazi’s and then he goes in and kills millions and destroys the country and our young men are brought home in body bags–Hey the facts speak for themselves and Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Muhammad Obama, and a host of other Presidents are just as guilty–and every one spoke of the New World Order many times with Reagan and Eisenhower even speaking to the idea that we need to understand that we may be up against the greatest of all terrible situations–a war against alien invaders.
OK so sign me up for the nut list if you haven’t already done so–take an oil bath while you are at it–certain to kill bugs. But I did get stopped by the border patrol last night just after leaving my gate and I had to call the commander after since I am a known Zombie in the area for the dog shooting. He said they do not need any probable cause==if they want to pull you over and treat you like a common criminal then they can go at it no matter if you are the mayor or just a bloke. Bush and his Twin Tower Destruction and now the Patriot Act to harass patriots.
So this was supposed to inform you I did video tonight some undeniable UFO activity. I am hoping Joy can put some of the videos on her site. I do notice the mother ship has as many as a dozen babies and the mother ship at least avoids being over Ft. Bliss but is not too far away across the border into Mexico. These are fun photos–night time and some of the lights given off are out of this world.
They are not orbs but in a few do appear that way but mostly the classical saucer shape with dome all lighted up nicely for the world to see–why I was out with my pickup last night –mama ship was headed west early but after a bit I went out nd she and babies had move instead back to the West South of El Paso. For some reason they like the area to the SW of me–highly volcanic region and desolation of desert for hundreds of miles. But a few of those trillions Cheney verified are unaccountable for must have back engineered the balloon that fell at Roswell so that it works well enough to move around like a Movie Space Patrol.
Happy Trails–Get your tin fold hat ready.
Charlie says
correction back to the east and south of me and now I just went out and it is 12:30 for Sat. Dec 7 2019–new day and I started filming this since dusk and now this thing is moving back to the West again. Late photos and now some look cigar shape but a disc if thick would look cigar shape then oval and sometimes like a saucer depending on how you looked at it as it turns. This has all shapes in different photos–But what the hell would that thing be looking at and it has to be humongous to be that thick and yet some I would guess 30-40 miles from my sighting point. There is one dimmer in conjunction with it with all those smaller craft. What are they really up to?
Charlie says
Correction–Feds dragged their feet for 7 years instead of 10–no independent investigations were allowed –they said a diesal tank cause the building to collapse–crock but who can question these power mongers.
Charlie says
Joy–when you have virtually every astronaut saying they were dogged with UFO craft on their missions and some, for instance Buzz Aldrin saying he saw structures on the moon and alien craft were there–then either the government is sending crazies up or these men with their hero status and impeccable reputations are bald face liars or what is more reasonable they are telling the truth just as Donut could not and even Blue Ridge could not because they are under strict mum orders. In fact so were the astronauts but legally they know and men of their stature can’t me held back since they are strictly the top Heroes of America. Mess with those fellows and whether you be government high up or even CIA then you would have the masses of American people upon you. So they have no fear like a Blue Ridger would have for his job–and in fact anyone that would ride a piece of junk rocket that is likely to blow up as not–(it did in many instances even killing many (7) in one but even more and also Russian cosmonauts) then you have men of an order of fearlessness at the top of the line only seen in such people as Navy Seals and the like. I should qualify that because just about any person can muster courage in situations even without the training needed to create the ultimate warrior.
I will give you access to any of my UFO photos–these damn things seem to follow me but in truth they are there for all to see–it is just that people don’t look up. You see the afternoon chem trails and those trails that have puffs that look like some bulbs falling down–those are heavy laden with powders of aluminum and barium oxide. I am not certain why they are being put out so often—here the skies get so much by evening you think you live in a haze like we see in the valley.
Las Cruces lives in the Rio Grande Valley so you drop off into a depression and right behind Las Cruces are the Organ Mountains–a place that my Dad was mining gold and had also dug out amethyst crystals–one the size of a small barrel. That area is now all military–any UFO or unidentified aircraft flying over it would immediatel be shot down so these UFO’s are playing a dangerous game unless they belong to the government. I thiink they do and the trillions of tax dollars missing have developed technology under black ops that many say make the star wars and Independence thing look limp. If you take time to research this stuff you get testimony from people that risk reputations that were not easy to come by–I mean becoming a four star general then talking about UFO’s and alien technology and craft and even bodies that the Army and other Military have acquired? You are either loony or else there is something to it. The fact is most of these men–even the astronauts that have testified are generally in my age category–they no longer are under the influences of the powers that be and can speak freely –and who is more brave than an astronaut?
So now to tell you how much we are watched–I am receiving stories on google–Why I Wished I Never Worked for Alex Jones (maybe his dog shot him)–which I have not read but goes to show how quickly we are tracked and fed pertinent information. If I had been on ebay looking at cameras you can bet I would be getting add pop ups on windows trying to sell me a camera. The brain wash is so intense in this age of the internet–and these are my own opinions–ain’t America Great already–you can labelled and still voice your opinion–or can you?
Actually I have not listened to Alex Jones in ages–though I do believe he comes up with some strong and generally verifiable opinions–even facts. Building 7 is a clincher if you know anything at all about how buildings come down and can understand why the government waited ten years to investigate the destruction of it–and only after 1500 engineers signed a petition demanding it. Building 7 was very important and housed the ongoing investigation evidence about the missing tax money that Cheney talked about and Cheney and his ties to Halliburton could talk–It cost the taxpayer a cool Trillion for that Iraqi war and despite Bush saying the Iraqi oil would pay us back –we knew that was a line of shit–the American taxpayer wound up paying for the war crimes our leaders instigated over there. Colin Powell was good at lying right along with the Bush Bunch. But I would guess that most Americans would say these are conspiracy theories and they are since these are things that would be classed as that–conspiracies. But with the ownership of main media, it is easy to fool the masses– My opinions-radical to be sure but sometime look up the meaning of radical–some like to look at the facts.
Did you remember Bush involved with the children in a school when an agent came in and whispered in his ear about the twin tower being hit with a hijacked airliner full of Americans ?
What did he do? From a Psychologist point of view his reaction would say he already knew something about the ordeal. An appropriate reaction would have been to immediately get up and tell the class I am sorry your President has an emergency to handle and leave to do that–or something appropriate in such an “act of war”. The Jersey Girls came up with that one and their insistent and reasonable questions were never answered except as I remember on the order of 10% leaving them as many of the GMHS with doubts and questions. These are my opinions –you enjoy your own.
Happy Trails–get out your tin foil hats.
Robert the Second says
Enough is Enough: Just Leave the Line
( https://firesafemt.org/news/2013-10-02-enough-is-enough/ )
” Just Leave the Line
By Robert Mutch: Chair, Painted Rocks-West Fork FireSafe Council
“On the Dude Fire in Arizona, 1990, 6 firefighters died in their fire shelters while trying to save homes.
“On the Esperanza Fire in California, 2006, 5 Forest Service firefighters from Engine 57 died while trying to save the unoccupied Octagon House.
“On the Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona, 2013, 19 firefighters from the Granite Mountain Hotshots died in or near their fire shelters while trying to save homes.”
“… A posting at the Wildfire Today website on July 5, 2013, said: “The fact is that firefighting is dangerous and deaths are unavoidable even if protocol is followed to the letter.”
The Wildfire Today “… even if protocol is followed to the letter” must be based on the SAIT-SAIR conclusion of finding ” NO INDICATION OF NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS ACTIONS, OR VIOLATIONS OF POLICY OR PROTOCOL. ” (emphasis added) SAIT-SAIR (2013) p. 4.
“These comments shed light on an unfortunate belief that is all too prevalent in some wildland firefighting circles. This longstanding belief equates wildland firefighting with war and acknowledges casualties and fatalities as inevitable. When people adopt this stance, their view that death is an inevitable outcome too often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.”
Absolutely fact, that WF and FF deaths are inevitable (due to human factors, errors, and failures on wildland fires, all we can do is reduce them. And full speed Bovine Feculence on the ‘self-fulfilling prophecy’ assertion.
charlie says
Very good comment–any citizen except maybe one whose house is being threatened by wild fire will tell you please–no not risk your life in any unnecessary manner to try to save structures. First off, no structure existing is worth a human life to save the damn thing. Next, if that person did not have the place defended by what is called defensible space–he/she likely did not give too much value to that property. And finally people that do value homes usually keep up insurance–and those that don’t as in Yarnell will likely get a new home courtesy of good old American generosity. And if my damned tent burns let it burn, I can always build a lean to and I don’t believe in insurance so if this trailer burns let the damn thing burn–don’t stop me from trying to rescue what I want out of it and sorry but I have no feelings for a structure over young lives as we saw the stupidity that went down attempting to protect structures at Yarnell.
Personally I believe insurance policies to be a racket. How do you think the insurance companies came to own so much wealth? This insurance package ought to be for every home owner and come out of a public fund–that wealth should belong to the people not a bunch of sorry insurance companies that you have to sue to get a premium in most cases.
There are just so many things that should be free public services–internet and OS for you computer–Microsoft has made a racket out of it making billionaires for Gates and a few others and it continues with all sorts of scams and new versions even to screwing up your computer so you get angry or buy their shit to keep their shit off your OS. Linux is fine and free and the way it should be and a system I use and judge to be many times as good as Windows—It is upgraded regularly and has very little garbage. I still have windows–I used to use Grub and have both on this fast computer–but I still have windows 10 on my lap top that i have not used in 6 months nor upgraded–though I did turn it on to try to install a disc for my microscope camera–and would you know the damn thing won’t even recognize the disc so I am bound to have to call Microsoft and see the problem or the company that made the camera–you would think a $300 camera would work–well of course it is supposed to work on Linux according to the company and Linux recognizes the Windows disc–so I still have to call the company or spend a little more time screwing with it when I get ready to use it.
It is a game and the public is unaware how they are being rooked in so many ways. Energy is a situation that should be free or near that since I know damn well the technology is there to provide every american home and even the world practically free energy. The fat dogs that run things are not about to allow their oil stocks, interests, and magnates down. They will keep the general public dummed down at all costs. Power and Greed are just too powerful of motivation to overcome and in the main these people are convinced of their good acts for the benefit of mankind. Shit.
Probably the most stupid thing is to put into office a billionaire thinking he is going to look out for the 99% that are not billionaires. There ought to be a law that the rulers can only represent the 99% if they are in that 99% and the lower the rung the better to represent the masses. Billionairs and Trillionairs that are over them represent the 1% they are in–their peer my friends–not your peers. They will continue to pollute, molest and control the masses, and do everything possible to maintain their office of control and make it stronger. Bush was a classic example with his Patriot Act, and Trump an example of giving a shit less about the environment–even forcing his will for more polluting and water draining golf courses on people that had fought him for years to keep the damn things out of their country (Scotland for one but Bosnia and others beside). But he has a beutiful slogan “Make America Great” what with more golf courses and Trump Towers and more billionaires running things.
Lots of parallels with wild land fire fighting incidents. Look at how they gave a shit less about how they took advantage of the loved ones of the 19. And even less that they polluted and killed and sickened so many in Yarnell. These are the elite 1% you vote for–not the 99% masses else every one would be off oil and on free energy technology that exists. But the Bankers, the Corporations and those in charge are not about to allow you to take the country back to the people and not to a bunch of world Bankers living in Europe or anywhere they thing the air is fresher and rubbing shoulders with the oil magnates and Giant Corporate interests that already own the media, the educational system–another corporate deal and even the prisons that some Judges were found to be assuring their stocks would do well by populating hell out of them.
One of my Thesis Papers was published in a Psychology Journal–It was titled Recidivism–
A thesis requires lots of references, lots of thought and time and study–If you have done one you know the game. It was well accepted to be published. I think most psychologists will tell you the prison system only breeds recidivism. They will also agree that our systems–the largest and most loaded in the world are unnecessarily overloaded. Certainly violent crimes and criminals need to be detained–and that includes about 20% of the prison population. There are just too many ways of dealing with the non-violent criminal, yet now that it is a big business on the stock market–do you expect improvement any more than knowing that retardant is killing or making ill our elderly, killing our aquatic life, especially fish, screwing up the environment and creating dead zones that in some instances such as coral reefs will never be replenished> If you do then you have more faith in the Trillionaire, Billionaire ruler class than I do.
And you will not find a media that will allow such posting as I did above except a few that truly are honest and concerned about the people and environment and truth. Even Internet is hard and now your Trillionaire-Billionaire rulers are doing everything possible to make sure they control information, know everything about the citizen and with these contents know exactly who to extract already–but a few of us old Zombies will haunt them and a few fearless Journalists and witnesses of wrongdoing will add to their miseries.
Happy Trails.
Woodsman says
Sometimes reading your posts is like watching an automobile accident in slow motion over and over, hoping for a good outcome this time but it never materializes.
Robert the Second says
Woodsman,
Here’s one for you from July 1, 2013. Pretty quick to get an article out like this one.
High Velocity Human Factors
Preventing Tragedies in Wildland Fire Fighting
( http://hvhfsciences.blogspot.com/2013/07/preventing-tragedies-in-wild-land-fire.html )
Joy A. Collura says
Woodsman
Do you mean rts comment or Charlie?
I know mine can be
Charlie says
Time and facts may possibly remove the scales from our eyes–keep on with the facts and some more may see the light. It is of course a great effort to remove oneself from the web of convention. If you want to entertain a belief or perpetrate a lie even in your own life repeat it 21 times–and the more authoritative the stronger the implant. This is Psychology 101–sort of like Pavlov putting windows in dog’s stomach to see that it salivated if you rang a bell along with the feeding–even after stopping the food–ring the bell and the dog salivates. A cowboy could have told him that and the formula to square a circle also–but I got my A in 101 anyway.
Robert the Second says
Woodsman,
If sometimes reading my posts are like watching an automobile accident in slow motion over and over, hoping for a good outcome this time but it never materializes, then maybe it’s about time for you to get with Joy A. Collura to post your own on her Yarnell Hill Fire Revelations website.
I’m sure you could do better.
Check this one out, especially the “all 19 were found together” photo. ( https://azdhs.gov/documents/preparedness/emergency-preparedness/conferences/2015/fatalities/Maricopa-Mass-Fatality-Yarnell-Fire.pdf )
And interesting references were pursuing
And this one from the Archive Wayback Machine
( https://web.archive.org/web/20140912053140/http://www.azfamily.com/video/?id=265221861&ref=rcvidmod&sec=906678 )
Remember Pearl Harbor day
Robert the Second says
The ” Firefighter who was at Yarnell Hill recalls tragedy, aftermath ” link (the main article) is the only link that is valid. All others are not
Woodsman says
Thanks for the links & sorry for the drive-by.
Robert the Second says
Holloway Fire Zuni Hot Shot (filler) Fire Shelter Deployment (2012) video published by Wildland Fire LLC – November 10, 2018 (This seems like a long time between the incident and these recent lessons learned)
“Fire Shelter Deployments: Stories and Common Insights” is a program developed by the US Forest Service Missoula Technology and Development Center (MTDC) that will help you understand what you may experience in a fire shelter deployment.
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43_lZQI31jM )
Let’s avoid discussing or talking about the Standard Firefighting Orders, LCES, or the Watch Out Situations that got you into that predicament, so we’ll just instead talk about using your Fire Shelter and the need to share your stories with others.
The NWCG “Fire Shelter Deployments: Stories and Common Insights” program is a joke because it treats fire shelter deployments as a success! I thought utilizing the Rules of Engagement toward Entrapment Avoidance were the goal and the true success stories.
The 2012 Holloway Fire Shelter Deployment video comments are pretty nauseating applauding her for being a hero and more for using her fire shelter, a “last resort” option.
I believe that the GMHS, also on this Holloway Fire, were adversely influenced by the surprising “success” of this shelter deployment; similar fuel type, similar topography, initially – similar fire behavior, and then ….
Now consider this from former USFS Fire Director Jerry Williams about the Rules of Engagement
One key challenge is the need to shrewdly draw lessons from the past and use them in a smart and useful way. Compare this duplicitous and very misleading “Progressive Thinkers” mindset to “Old School” WF worldview in 2002. Jerry Williams, the former Director of Fire and Aviation Management, USDA Forest Service, Washington Office, Washington, DC, wrote an article for Fire Management Today (Issue 62, pp. 31-35) that specifically addresses the value of the Fire Orders. What follows is based on remarks made by the him at the National Fire and Aviation Management Meeting from February 25 to March 1, 2002, in Scottsdale, AZ. It is most unfortunate that the USFS has strayed far and wide from this man’s sage counsel.
In other words, this germane wildland fire information and these valuable lessons learned that Mr. Williams offered in 2002, were clearly available to ALL WFs and FFs engaged in wildland firefighting in 2013, including the GMHS. Apparently, all others on the YH Fire that day followed Mr. William’s sage advice. Similarly, literally tens of thousands of WFs and FFs engaged in wildland firefighting effectively utilize them every single fire season. This is NOT hindsight bias! Go to
( https://www.fs.fed.us/sites/default/files/fire-management-today/62-4.pdf ) and then scroll down to the “Next Steps in Wildland Fire Management” on pages 31-35.
“Firm Rules of Engagement
“The Ten Standard Firefighting Orders must be firm rules of engagement. They cannot be simple guidelines, and they cannot be “bargained.” They are the result of hard-learned lessons. Compromising one or more of them is a common denominator of all tragedy fires. On the Dude, South Canyon, and Thirtymile Fires, the Fire Orders were ignored, overlooked, or otherwise compromised. (Williams 2002)
“The Fire Orders mean little after we are in trouble. That is why we must routinely observe them and rely on them before we get into trouble. We know that no fire shelter can ensure survival all of the time under all circumstances. Entrapment avoidance must be our primary emphasis and our measure of professional operational success. (Williams 2002)
“Conditions on the fireline can rapidly change. In the pressure of the moment, it is easy for people to overlook something important. That is why we must encourage our firefighters to speak up when they notice safety being compromised. As Weick and Sutcliffe point out, “people who refuse to speak up out of fear enact a system that knows less than it must to remain effective.” We must promote a working environment where even our greenest firefighters feel free to speak up. (Williams 2002)
“Following an accident, a “stand-down” should be an accepted practice for those involved, until the facts can be sorted out. However, it is a shame that our focus on accountability too often occurs after an accident. Culturally, we must shift the weight of accountability to the time before an accident takes shape. We must embrace the rules of engagement as a way of doing business—as a professional standard. Violation of any Fire Order must prompt management or supervisory intervention and, unless rapidly corrected, be unarguable grounds for release from the fireline, release from the incident, or – if egregious – serious personnel action. (Williams 2002)
“However, we must not adhere to the Fire Orders for fear of punishment. We must embrace the Fire Orders because we owe it to one another. In that sense, the Fire Orders must become a shared obligation, where the leader’s situational awareness depends on participation by the entire crew and where the crew’s participation is tempered with respect for the leader’s responsibility. Borrowing from the aviation community’s model of Cockpit/ Crew Resource Management, we must focus fireline operations more on what is right than on who is right.” (Williams 2002)
And once again, the challenge is still out there to provide even one wildland fire where the Fire Orders were followed and the 18 Watch Outs were utilized and mitigated, and a WF or FF was killed by the wildfire.
Woodsman says
https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfThe10StandardFirefightingOrders
I tried to tell some of you fossils that the orders were rearranged over the years & I got crickets…looking at you, Bob. In 1987 order #1 was Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first. I remember from surplus training materials. This was done to spell out the mnemonic “FIREORDERS” to attempt to make them easier to remember. Like everything government, they’ve can leave it alone & constantly change things.
There are 2 camps regarding the 10 standard fire orders: there are those that believe they are hard rules which must be followed and there are those that believe they are guidelines. I have personally spent many hours studying & thinking about this situation. (I lean into the RULES category) While I believe that they are a type of contractual agreement amongst firefighters and fire managers, I also believe Dr. Putnam has made a series of very significant points in his research, primarily while I can readily admit that following them is the key to wildland firefighter survival, they can at the same time secondarily serve management’s desire for blame post-tragedy to be assigned places “other than management. ”
All that being said, this begs the question, which camp do you believe GMIHC stood within? Rules or Guidelines? One camp will certainly increase the odds of tragedy striking, in my opinion in most situations.
It’s a tough one. Although it sounds like an easy call to make there’s a lot of human psychology involved in risk management and the decision making process. “Expectations of Management “, for one. The desires of management can kill you, folks.
Woodsman says
Alright! It’s not “a tough one.” Don’t do stupid shit and you’ll be OK most of the time. Sorry, everybody. The truth is the truth. RIP, guys. I hope and pray for comfort for those who grieve. I wish it all didn’t turn out the way it did, but it did, so…
joy a collura says
I think the GMHS had their own camp – neither orders or guidelines
I think if just one of you who gave me your account that was there the last 18 minutes signed my release waiver form then we can go more in details there.
I think as I awoke sobbing today because if only those people spoke – after you hear it through you will get why I await those release signatures.
But I firmly have thought and fought with RTS on the Orders because Dr Tedd made sense on Guidelines so it could be either or is how I took it for years yet if they were followed the ten like an order and as well investigated with accountability in such manners than we would have less injuries and deaths and more punished and more responsibility for your actions
Happy Holidays Woodsman
Woodsman says
And am I correct to assume you can’t divulge what this “3rd camp” is that GMIHC fell into that was neither “rules” or “guidelines” until you get permission from others? If not, what kind of “camp” would you call it?
Happy Holidays to you as well, Joy.
Woodsman says
I asked a rhetorical question because obviously based on past issues that people have testified about AND McDonoughs claim that the rules are “hillbilly” and they were operating in some advanced dimension that the remainder of us need to get with the program on, GMIHC was in the “guidelines ” camp. What else could it possibly be?
If it was some rules some of the time, that’s guidelines, for example. If you make up your own rules then the accepted general principles of wildland firefighting (standard orders) are merely guidelines. I’m having a difficult time imagineering another camp besides:
1. RULES. Don’t bend em don’t break em
AND
2. GUIDELINES. We’ll follow em if we want, maybe
Inquiring minds want to know.
Robert the Second says
Woodsman,
Fossils ey, WTF is that all about?
I think the GMHS selectively followed the Ten Standard Fire Orders and LCES while also selectively heeding or ignoring and failing to mitigate the Watch Out Situations.
The August 2012 Holloway Fire in northern NV and southern OR was a classic case involving NUMEROUS near misses without actually learning any valuable “complete” lessons from any of them – with the typical GMHS response of ‘we’re [GM] and we think we can pull it off.’
And likely also because of “The Prescott Way” based on PFD Wildland Battallion Chief Will (former PFD Chief) comments during the July 2013 News Conference video stating something to the effect that (PARAPHRASING HERE) ‘the GMHS had LCES, however, when you’re on the move you don’t always have those standards in place’ and two of my all-time favorites – ‘no wildland firefighter is satisfied sitting in a safety zone doing nothing while the fire progresses below them’ and “firefighter safety was a last resort.’
Robert the Second says
Woodsman,
YH Fire Report and Twitter Analysis and Public Opinion with “fire expert” Jim Paxon drinking the YH Fire kool-aid and nauseatingly taking the Party Line and standing on it and he’s totally disagreeing with you!
( http://cyberspaceandtime.com/80tkfi8yXdQ.video+related )
Woodsman says
I’d be much more interested in reading an opinion of a person who’s not an entrenched bureaucrat. I stopped the video when the “hindsight bias” and “armchair quarterback” terms were throw out, straight out of the gate btw.. With all due respect, Paxon, you’re part of the problem.
Woodsman says
And this is the same guy who says he’s one of the founders of the Arizona Wildfire Academy…the same one originating from Marsh’s living room? If so, I think I see the bias now.
https://www.azbw.com/Jim_Paxon_Joins_AZGFD.php
joy a collura says
https://youtu.be/TUNeCgHRY8g
I had a bad health evening so I wanted to have post 1 of 5 out last night yet just got up to get it going Sonny-
I have to travel far to my doctors tomorrow so be in travel mode but Happy Holidays to the world-
There will be some snippets in the post from this video-
I will not be sharing it all that I know on the post because someone who knows it all too said keep that area quiet until we get a signature but I was correct to lead and walk/hike Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair and Michael Kodas and Jim Roth and his lady and Fred and Deanna Thompson (Fire20+) there ages ago-
joy a collura says
to all affected by this fire
I want to first hand know this five posts and the more to come has brought much darkness
God is mightier than such
I trust in Him
yet in it, it is the hardest path I have thus far
I feel strongly the first hand people should be the ones doing this
and I am going to start my post with a former IM post’r and their team of disinformation from this Spring 2019
I had to run a lot of my information through the legal areas to ensure I share where it matters versus seeming like an attack on people places and systems – since they are the ones who opened the door, not me.
I am doing it from a pure heart
I think too many inaccurate narrations are out there on me so I am going to explain WHO I AM-
joy a collura says
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2019/11/24/Part-1-of-5—Underneath-every-simple-obvious-story-about-human-error%E2%80%99-there-is-a-deeper-more-complex-story—a-story-about-the-system-in-which-people-work-Will-these-formerly-unrevealed-public-records-change-the-account-of-what-occurred-on-June-30-2013?utm_campaign=9b46de97-1372-443e-a03a-5f66a0bb4de5&utm_source=so&utm_medium=mail&cid=9202d425-3bcd-4891-a3e7-9630ebc1828d
part one is done, sonny. I had to make sure the links worked- now let me see if I can get 2 thru 4 out tonight.
Back at it.
Joy A Collura says
I am about twenty percent efficient for the next post, Sonny-
I am tired- I have a long Holiday full of event week so
Happy Holidays-
I will after this week keep cracking on post two.
Last time I waited for all five to be done and look where it got me so this time I am posting it one at a time but it does stink to rebuild what I spent too long building-
Good night
Cheerio