Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV, Chapter XXV, Chapter XXVI and Chapter XXVII, XXVIII, XXIX and XXX.
© Copyright 2020 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Reply to OZWFF post on November 12, 2020 at 11:17 pm\
I’m still playing ‘catch up’ with the recent posts, and I wanted to be sure and respond to everything you’ve been saying/asking.
I think we have covered some of the following in other posts, already, so forgive me if there’s some OVERLAP with this ‘Reply’.
>> OZWFF said…
>>
>> Okay, here’s where I’m at with this now and thank you for your patience!
>>
>> Musser was driving the blue pickup ( I call it the Poxy Blue Truck, PBT,
>> because it has been a pain in the backside to match with events and people );
Agree. I’d call this better than 98 percent certain.
>> Tony Sciacca was driving the white PFWFD truck with the covered tray;
No doubt ( Proven ).
>> By the way, I really don’t think he ( Tony Sciacca ) was the overhead
>> who told the evacuating drivers in the Youth Camp to leave the FF as
>> they couldn’t run fast enough.
Agree.
Sciacca never went back to the Youth Camp itself. The identity of that person who told the Peeples Valley FF’s to ‘get out’ and NOT wait for their crew members has never been established. Could have been TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel. He WAS ‘back there’ at that time.
>> Charlie Reyes is the dude wearing the shirt with Central Yavapai Fire
>> written on the back; The guy with that shirt on is in all the right
>> places in Story and Lees photos to have been him.
Highly likely.
>> He ( Charlie Reyes ) was Engine Boss of Central Yavapai ENG 59.
Yes.
>> Reyes told Cordes about the deployment.
Yes.
That’s when Cordes replied ( to Reyes ) “BULLSHIT!” and told Reyes he ( Cordes ) thought Granite Mountain had plenty of time to make it to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
>> Rance Marquez is the hiding guy in the RR video
Disagree. ( More below in the section about the SWARTZ photos ).
>> and it isn’t Frisby standing next to him (the guy in the ballcap with arms folded);
>>
>> Frisby is a lot slighter build and he never took his helmet or
>> glasses off at RHR. If you look at him and True in the third
>> Hulburd video when they are waiting at the Shrine deciding to
>> break through you can see many traits of the guy who isn’t True
>> and they do not match that guy in the RR video.
Agree. You are totally right about ‘pants length’.
Frisby really could NOT be that FF with the black ballcap who is seen ‘staring down the camera’ in the RR video.
I have no idea who that might be… or if it was even a Blue Ridge Hotshot.
** THE SWARTZ PHOTOS
>> OZWFF also said…
>>
>> The RHR rally point is shown in Swartz 1843 and 1844.
Yes.
>> Compare the dude looking away from the camera in Swartz 1843
>> at the RHR rally point. Clothing, haircut pattern, radio harness
>> to the guy in the RR video. I think they are the same guy just
>> without the helmet. The guy at the rally point has to be Rance Marquez
>> and I think Carrouthers is the other white helmet in that group.
I agree that those are both most likely Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers standing there in Swartz 1843 ( both with WHITE helmets on, Marquez on the left and Carothers on the right ).
But I disagree that the one who appears to be Marquez matches the FF who is seen ‘hiding from the camera’ in the Russ Reason ( RR ) video.
Reasons…
1. I’m not seeing the same ‘matches’ between the two that you are.
Example: The FF who ‘hides’ from the camera in the RR video was SHORT. His head wasn’t any higher than the roof of that camper top on the back of Marty Cole’s ALL-WHITE Toyota Tacoma, where they were all standing. The FF with with the WHITE helmet in Swartz 1843 who appears to be Rance Marquez seems much TALLER than just the roof of a camper top.
Yes… they are both sporting ‘black chest packs’… but I’m seeing some subtle differences.
Clincher ( for me ) would be the ‘gut check’ ( as in belly-size ).
The FF in the RR video had a pretty good one going ( as in… I wonder if he’s seen his feet lately )… whereas the FF with WHITE helmet in Swartz 1843 seems much ‘slimmer’, gut-wise.
2. I still think the timing on the RR video was too soon for DIVZ Rance Marquez to have been there at the Ranch House Restuarant.
The ‘Swartz’ photos are here in the public evidence ‘Dropbox’…
Photos and Video/AerialFirefightingstudy/Swartz/Pictures/Nikon/North of Fire/Town of Yarnell
Direct link to Swartz 1843 in that folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACU1unBtkzIdUt_pw2z0_Iaa/Photos%20and%20Video/AerialFirefightingstudy/Swartz/Pictures/Nikon/North%20of%20Fire/Town%20of%20Yarnell?dl=0&preview=20130630_1843_AZ-A1S-000688__YARNELL_FB_1_G_RS.JPG&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
>> OZWFF also said…
>>
>> Who is “briefing” Trueheart Brown in the Story photos?
>> I really think it could be Cordes.
I think we covered this one already. I believe ( for reasons already given ) the guy with his back to the camera in that Tom Story photo number 1678 is FBAN Byron Kimball. I also wouldn’t say, just based on that one photo, that he was ‘briefing’ Trueheart Brown.
More like the other way around, I think.
IMHO there isn’t much chance it was SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
Too many ‘physical appearance’ details just don’t match for it to have been Cordes ( also IMHO ).
More later
Followup…
PUBLIC photo of Cougan Carothers,
Central Arizona Fire – Battalion 3 Chief – A-Shift
https://www.cazfire.org/team/cougan-carothers/
All good!
I hope I’m not rehashing stuff for you too much. This timeline between 1550 and 1720 has a lot going on in it obviously. I believe you’re right about Kimball so that one can lay down now.
I am interested on what you think about my theories in response to your question about Ball at the HWY 89 meeting and whether it’s plausible from what we can see in his own photos that it was Cordes himself who dropped him at Yarnell Fire Station. Located, of course, on HWY 89 opposite Shrine and not far from Norton Way where Cordes stated he was involved in rescues.
As I said before I’m trying to nail down what Musser and Cordes were actually doing between 1550 and 1720 that afternoon as they are pivotal in this whole thing.
That said, do you have a timeline for that period?
Thanks again!
OZWFF
BTW,
I hear what you say about Marquez. He has been, in my mind, quite secretive about what, why and where he was that whole day. My opinion that he is hiding in the RR video comes from that. I’ll go and have another look at your body type description to see if I can concur!
OZWFF
Yes, OZWFF is quite aware of the problem of secrecy in concerning the 19 Wild Land Fire Fighter deaths at Yarnell of that tragic Sunday, June 30, 2013. The photo of Caruthers posted by WTKTT reminds us of the great resumes of these heros and their accomplishments in life. Most have similar backgrounds and none are short on bravery to face the death defying job of fire fighting and must have the fortitude, physical strength and instincts to stay alive while fighting these mega fires such as occured at Yarnell and continue to occur. Yet you wonder why such secrecy when it comes to discussing the irresponsible killing of the 19.
I sometimes come to this site to soak in the wisdom of the old timer wild land fire fighters. I am reminded by RTS that instinct is not enough—there is wisdom in procedures of safety written down much like the ten commandments by the old wise and well experienced fire fighters–and the lone survivor saved only by luck of the appearance on a ATV with an aware foreman Frisby. GMHS Donut would tout the 10 Standard Fire Fighting Orders as insignificant–not really important. Instincts were to his way of thinking were what mattered –and apparently that was the attitude of the whole of the crew–yet this time his instincts and that of the crew managers failed them.
The history of the developement of the 10 Standard Fire Fighting Orders began in 1957 when the wise of USDA Forest Service Task Force felt certain safety procedures should be taught to firefighters. The Blackwater fire of 1937 had killed fifteen 17-20 year old inexperienced wildland firefighters due to similar circumstances of wind direction change and placement of wild land fire fighters in a zone of no escape.
Here are the orders that wise wild land fire fighter instructor RTS so often reminds us of concerning the extreme importance of knowing and using these rules to stay alive. The idea that Donut believed that instincts will keep you alive is fallacy in the wild land fire fighting scene–there are proceedures and rules to know and follow–something obviously the managers of the GMHS crew and those above them did not observe.
10 Standard Firefighting Orders
Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
Know what your fire is doing at all times.
Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
Identify escape routes and safety zones and make them known.
Post lookouts when there is possible danger.
Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.
Maintain prompt communications with your forces, your supervisor, and adjoining forces.
Give clear instructions and ensure they are understood.
Maintain control of your forces at all times.
Fight fire aggressively, having provided for safety first.
The original order was changed only so they could be more easily memorized–and even then a simple 4 letter version called the LCES was made up to remind the wild land fire fighter to constantly be aware of keeping a look out, have ongoing communications, maintain an escape route, and have an available Safety Zone.
Also introduced were the Watch out orders–for those of us who would want to understand the why the 19 were killed, yet we are not wild land fire fighters–here is what they should have known, understood and followed:
18 Watch Out Situations
These are specific fireline situations that have lead to entrapments, injuries, or fatalities in wildfire history. They serve as cautionary warnings to keep in the back of your mind while fighting fire.
Fire not scouted and sized up.
In country not seen in daylight.
Safety zones and escape routes not identified.
Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior.
Uninformed on strategy, tactics, and hazards.
Instructions and assignments not clear.
No communication link with crew members or supervisor.
Constructing line without safe anchor point.
Building fireline downhill with fire below.
Attempting frontal assault on fire.
Unburned fuel between you and fire.
Cannot see main fire; not in contact with someone who can.
On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
Weather becoming hotter and drier.
Wind increases and/or changes direction.
Getting frequent spot fires across line.
Terrain and fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
Taking a nap near fireline.
Exactly how many were flaunted by the managers of the Yarnell Wild Land Fire I as a civilian can not say eventhough I personally can see many. It would take Dr. Ted Putnam or Gary Olson or RTS or Norbert of long experience in wild land fire fighting to give you a valid list. And I do know that these lists are out there, yet the main media has skirted their responsibility to point out how the managers of the wild land fire at Yarnell followed the safety rules so badly. Who taught these fire fighters and who allowed their managers to manage these fires? They should be brought to account–wild land fire fighter lives matter.
Something that has always bothered me was that awards were given out to wild land fire fighter bosses after the Yarnell Fire, yet Brian Frisby was never given recognition and an award for saving Donut–a man woefully lacking in understanding wild land fire fighter safety almost as much as Eric Marsh and others in management were in disregarding the safety rules. On the battlefield, Frisby would deserve at least a Presidential Citation for the brave act of risking his own life to fetch and save the life of the sole survivor of the GMHS crew. Donut had no chance to survive had Brian Frisby not risked his own life to save the novice firefighter.
I had received an email from Joy–Donut has a You-Tube deal out on marriage–whew maybe I could have used some advice there but I could not get past the introduction and did not view the content. I thought he was only a spokesman for the wild land fire fighting community –but now he is branching out.
Joy also advised me that John McClean and Holly Niel are some concerned because there is a rumor out that his book won’t be published. He says it will–he does not want to miss out on the profits and the public does not want to miss out on his take of the Yarnell Fire backed by the investigations of Holly Niel and contributions of such notables as Donut and Amanda. He can leave my name out as far as I am concerned though he did interview the hikers.
Holly and her husband did the same. I will say Wayne Niel is very knowledgeable about wild land fire fighting and I read him as an excellent A+ wild land fire fighter. His ability to explain things would make him a top instructor and you would know he would never tolerate a Marsh type operation that goes in needlessly risking lives to protect structures. I would hope he is by now either an instructor or runs a crew–honesty is a top priority and I saw that man at the top of the list. However, honesty might be a fault in some circles such as we saw after the demise of the 19 and so much disinformation published both in media and books–something I do know that Dr. Ted Putnam had to confront McClean on some of his information that needed to be corrected. Fellows, you can not read non-wild land fire fighter books and expect much concerning wild fires and fighting them. The only place to get good information is from the horse’s mouth–those fellows that have made a long career of wild land fire fighting–not the wannabees.
I can tell you how to sound ground down deep in a mine so you will have a better chance of staying safe but if I were to read a book about wild land fire fighting, it would have to be from a wild land fire fighter of long experience (eg Gary Olson’s book). I would not waste my money on John McClean’s book since I know where he got his advice from. Novice wild land fire fighters would get themselves killed and you too if you were dumb enough to follow their advice–honesty in reporting is also necessary.
So happy holidays to all you heros fighting the wild land fires and may you and yours be as safe as is possible.
Here is an email I sent to Joy–she has concerns for her health as do many of us and my regards for those are extended to those that suffered the retardant scourge at Yarnell after the inundations of 2013 and 2015 during those two wild fires that cursed the city.
These are my opinions under the first amendment freedom of expression and I do realize that some in the wild land fire fighting community would bath themselves in the concoctions of retardant and even stress contamination of residential areas with retardant. They opine that the retardant is harmless despite the facts but education and facts might change their minds.
Email to Joy:
Doesn’t sound good on your health issues–That is me, I am just having to do the lightest of things–I can get in enough wood to keep warm and am totally out just to carry in the nights supply. Then did a little setting up reload bench in the bed room since I keep this room warm and do not want to bother stoking that main room stove and I feel depleted doing just those little things–no wind and out of breath. We got screwed from the chemicals in that retardant–I don’t know what poisons they use but they ruin the lungs and screw up the kidneys and other organs in the body–mainly the arteries and heart. Well we are blessed in a way since most of the folk my age and those depleted are pushing up tulips. Those Israeli Chemical companies aren’t only killing Arabs but doing in some good American Citizens with their agent orange retardant chemicals. I wish I had a count of the deaths they have caused nationwide–but people rather sacrifice lives to save structures and with the secrets we can not even know the hidden chemicals–but even the major components of phosphates and ammonium are deadly poisons that ruin our underground water resources not to mention easily killing hundreds of thousands of fish and making miles of ugly dead zones. If facts were weighed this killing and slow disease death causing chemical spreading is comparable to the Nazi death orders–the death angels gone undercover.
But down through history the actual chemical death causing has been hidden. For decades, uranium and radium were used to cure certain diseases. For 50 years Monsanto has had a reign of death and if you google this psychotic company you can see the wanton destruction they have laden upon humans, the environment and the animal and ocean population. The facts speak for themselves–one example from Canada copy and pasted: “May 16, 2019 · For 43 years, the forest industry has been conducting aerial spraying of glyphosate herbicide on Indigenous lands – a “rain of death” used in forest management practice that has slowly been killing off a wide range of animals, plants, fish and insects.” Monsanto was the distributor of retardant–sold out and eventually the Iraelie companies took over the destructive practice for the lucrative profits.
These companies are much like those billionaire and trillionaire companies that have bought our politicians, media and even educational institutions. Just as China has pumped billions into Harvard and other top Universities and into people such as Hunter Biden and those on our intelligence committees to buy influence and secrets so do these chemical companies push their profits. Even if a chemical is recognized as causing problems these companies with their money trees go to court and argue for years for the continuation of their death dealing chemicals. For example the horror of Thalidomide was recognized in 1961 but it was 1968 before settlement was reached even as the chemical continued to be distributed. These companies will maintain their profits and health and environment are trashed. So the truth is–your government does little to protect your health–you indeed need to understand the system and know that you better become aware of the dangers to health by your own accord.
The actual destruction caused by retardant is shameful just as the idea that young hero wild land fire fighters should be placed at unnecessary risk to protect structures. We continue to talk about the way the GMHS crew was needlessly killed for structure protection according to Willis “that is what they do-protect structures”–because there was indeed a concerted effort to cover up the real reasons the men of the GMHS group were killed. They were indeed needlessly subjected to fighting fires while breaking all the common sense safety rules of wild land fire fighting. By some political influence it appears that a man with a record of risk taking was allowed to manage the crew and even the lone survivor testified that the rules of safety had no significance in wild land fire fighting. So he too would have fell in line with the others had he not been saved by Brian Frisby. He too was in a death dealing zone due to his lack of understanding. So yes, because the system has disregarded lives to cover up and protect their own inept efforts at wild land fire fighting and disregard of the safety of those young souls, we will continue to protest.
The retardant issue is a real problem not even secondary to the needless risk taking to protect structures. It indeed is skirted because there are major profits being made in that industry. It is amazing how these chemical companies can continue despite facts, fresh underground water sources documented and being contaminated, ocean zones destroyed and aquatic life ruined. Yes money buys influence and the monkeys running our political systems are being fed plenty of bananas to look the other way. Just be cautious with your own well being and those you love when in the chemical environment.
Slainte
Of the chemical killing of vegetation– If you take Exit 116 To the North side of I-10 and angling NW you can follow a graded dirt road. It leads to the Ranch Foreman’s home some 7 miles down the road. However, if you come to a huge pile of dirt on the west side of the road before coming into the ranch area, you can take a rough power line road off the graded road bearing to the East. If you follow that road on federal land to where the Rancher has locked his section of private land you will be atop some small hills. Hike to the North a few hundred yards to see what Agent Orange Does–I had some photos, but that phone fell off my truck and an 18 wheeler made mince meat out of it. So I will have to return to get photos again because the site is worth documenting and indeed worth the visit to anyone who wants to understand the effects of something–be it chemicals or be it something else.
You will see vegetation killed in a swath about a half mile wide in a perfect strip demarcated by a line on both sides that goes out from the hills back west into the valley back toward the graded dirt road. The sides of that swath of killed brown vegetation are as if laid out by a surveyor. Whoever killed that vegetation had a keen eye and a method that I do not understand since the vegetation death is so sudden as if you would walk across the white line on the edges of a football field. What could kill vegetation in such a straight swath across the desert landscape?
Could this be a kill from a satellite laser type thing or can it be done by a precise laying down of deadly chemicals from an airplane? Whatever killed those chapparel and other desert flora certainly was effective–and likely that Ranch Forman was fortunate that the winds blow to the east since his abode is only a couple miles to the NW of the area.
Perhaps it is an agent orange type experiment since this area is not too far from White Sands Proving Ground and whatever can knock out plants that effectively surely would also make a skeleton of a person.
So my question to the forest service pilots who do distribute the forest poisons or else from some of you wise wild land fire fighter honchos would be are these distributions made of retardant able to be laid out so precisely by airplane? Or could a helicopter do the job so precisely with some spray mechanism? I am baffled by the precision of vegetation killing in that area and would appreciate some thoughts on what I witnessed–perhaps WTKTT would know something here.
In my backward life of not owning a phone until I was 36 and that due to a wife that needed one, Joy showed me that you can google the area and pan it–maybe she will do it and if the satellite photos are recent enough people will be able to see that ranch house then look at the hills to the SW of the ranch and off that dirt road. I was prospecting those hills for agate of which there is none but the rough ride over there I felt was well worth seeing that anomaly of destruction that reaches so far out. That trip was about a year ago –location about twenty miles east of Las Cruces, NM off I-10. I was able to hike a couple mile across the area and along that Rancher’s fence line of private land but on Federal Land.
California has not moved in here yet so I don’t think you need a land pass to walk on the people’s federal land. Lots of veterans, myself included have a bad taste in our mouths when the constitution is infringed on the liberty to have the right to cross our lands freely and without restriction. Any robber that would endanger me or himself by charging me a fee to cross state or federal lands should be taken to task–and that includes those that like the retardant companies use political crap to hide their crimes.
In thinking about what measures would save lives concerning dangerous jobs and specifically wild land fire fighting, Dr. Ted Putnam comes to mind. Dr. Putnam has laid out plans and methods to enhance the security and safety of wild land fire fighter. I know one of his recommendations involves meditation–a quieting of the mind.
Bare in mind, Dr. Ted Putnam had on the job as a smoke jumper-wild land fire fighter personally saved two young Donut types by stern admonishments and words to keep them from committing themselves to almost an identical situation that caused the deaths of the GMHS crew. We know that Ted had survived 15 years of wild land fire fighting and smoke jumping and later had after his doctorate became one of the nation’s foremost wild land fire investigators. He was in charge of the death investigation that killed 14 in the Colorado Storm King Fire and spent much time investigating the Mann Gulch deaths among other tragic incidents. When he speaks we know we have a reliable and expert decision about these incidents. He is no slouch in his investigations and covers each incident thoroughly. For instance I know he spent over 6 years and much of his own money, time and resources to get to the truth of the Mann Gulch Ordeal.
Dr. Ted however has not said a lot about the Yarnell problem–he was writing and investigating the Mann Gulch Ordeal during the time, yet what he said was important and to the point. His reasons for these investigations is to make life safer for those that follow and his observations back most of what is reported on investigative media.
Among the things he recommends is a habit of meditation–the quieting of the mind. I have never been a meditator that gets in the sitting Buddha position but being in the bush much and that alone I have had some profound experiences because of the quieting of the mind. Solutions to problems have suddenly snapped into my mind–an awareness of situations I believe has saved me many times in mining jobs and other hazardous situations. So Dr. Ted’s advice on procedures concerning life and wild land survival are well taken and I should hope he writes a column for the younger inexperienced wild land fire fighter and even many of the bosses that have advanced to where they are responsible for so many lives.
Well, Dr. Steven Greer, MD, has quite a talk also about meditation–something he practices and has used to even contact aliens. Do not laugh, the film he and his fellows have of UFO after the intentional meditative exercises are proof. So I did see his take on YouTube with the solid evidence now also backed by Naval Photos of UFO activity to realize that the photos that Joy took at my property in Dolan Springs, AZ were the same aliens his group had summoned. The photos of the craft they summoned are identical even to the green laser and the mother ship with several small attending craft that Joy had shown me by blowing up the photo. I before had believe what Joy photographed was part of the secret Military craft being developed at Area 51–but now after I see these people have summoned these craft in several instances that are identical to her photos, I have other thoughts.
Greer has met with UN people, Presidents, Astronauts, Generals and Military people concerning the subject. They have agreed with him but have maintained top secret retention of documents that would chill some people. There are just too many people that witness these events–people with unquestionable credentials that witness these things.
And Joy, with her honesty and photos has the proof on film–those that are backed by the actual photos Dr. Greer presents in his You Tube presentation. Actually he has YouTube but I watched his main film on Tubi.
So meditation can have great benefits and you might even communicate with some universal beings and bring them to your neighborhood. Can you imagine the intelligence of people that have advanced through thousands and even millions of years?
Greer says Ft. Huachucha has actual flying saucers and bodies reported to him by people that worked there –so the story of the study of flying saucers at Area 51 as purported by people from there seems quite plausible.
Strangely, Greer tells us that the US Military frowns on alien intrusion, especially in our air space, and considers them a threat; therefore,have brought down
several by technological methods. So yes, our limited abilities of awareness and closed human minds captured and controlled since birth and through educational mind control methods have kept the general public in a mind prison. But some will escape the dishonesty and facades –and Dr. Ted has the key.
Slaiente
An email from Joy has reminded me that many of the children of the deceased GMHS crew are now either adolescents or young adults. They are learning the truth and facts about the Yarnell deaths caused by careless action and covered up.
I can only imagine that people that covered the truth and enjoyed profit making from the incident having to face these children. Their falsification of information to maintain reputations and make profit and fame will surely bear on their souls. What excuses will they have now to hide the facts?
I can only say thanks to the people that have contributed to this site and the brave John Daugherty who has refused to espouse a lie but has presented the true story and allowed the truth to be presented. The kids, now adults, will want to know the truth.
RTS–Hope for your speedy recovery–
Too many of our wild land fire fighters have been subjected to dangerous chemicals–the retardant being the foremost danger while the constant exposure to the dense smoke of a wild fire contributes as well. I believe the carbon coated lungs (if you have ever seen coal miner lungs you can understand)-combines with the chemical poisons of the retardant to even worsen the effects on the lungs. Depletion of oxygen and the chemicals in time either sooner or later depending upon circumstances–cause a mutation of the cell DNA. The result is a slow developing cancer. Cancers begin to grow and because their presence is not recognized until one is coughing up blood or perhaps feeling excruciating pain, the victim often is beyond recovery.
The medical profession knows these things, the FS people you can not count on to know much. And even if they do, you can see from the killing of the Yarnell GMHS crew they do not often pay much attention to facts, common sense and health and safety issues. But in all fairness, exposure to these chemicals will continue–profits to the big business can not be halted–and certainly breathing smoke and the chemicals can not be avoided.
The solution would be to fine hell out of the Chemical companies to pay for the medical expenses of these heroes fighting the fires and enduring the smoke and chemicals that guarantee health issues later in life. Either way, the taxpayer ought to look out for these men and women since they do protect resources and save lives where they can.
That man or woman being exposed to the smoke on the line ought to have his wage tripled at minimum. I do not know how to put a price on life but their years of life will be shortened by a number of years and often those years they do have after retirement will be another battle and likely a horror story of visiting doctors and hospitals.
Justice is being fair and honest.
Slainte
I Just watched a U-tube guy. He says anytime you use encrypted email you are put on a suspect list because the government and law enforcement thinks you have something to hide–so all contacts and records are kept to try to connect you to terrorist or criminal activity. It turns out encrypted email privacy is invaded more than just regular unencrypted mail. This is the Commies keeping track–or more leaning to the fascist NAZI types making sure they can know who might be against their prying so they can eliminate the opposition. Look how they worked on Trump. But now we will be on friendly terms with China and Russia (Biden has plenty of ties there and made boocoos of loot from the association) so the Commies will be back giving money to influence the political greedy bunch. But then with the Zuckerbergs and Twitter Dee Jack Dorsey and friends and Control Freaks, why worry about the Commies? These boys are censoring and controlling along their likes and dislikes and will allow only opinions of their own–to their way of thinking 75 million Americans have no right to their beliefs–eaters of the looser sects.
Saliente–Be Strong, Brave and Honest.
I will post this–It was sent on encrypted email because I like the first amendment right and do not mind speaking my mind. Saliente
Sent with ProtonMail Unsecured Email.
But the irony of it is that just about all government who supposedly works for the people has 90% of its actions classified and encrypted so no one knows the nefarious actions we have seen lately. I must give Trump applause for declassifying the garbage and nefarious actions going on in our highest offices.
We were treated to pages and pages of blacked out information on the Yarnell incident. Can anyone tell me what there was that was so important to hid involving the actions concerning wild land fire fighting at Yarnell and the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew or why people that worked the fire were threatened and ordered mum even by Judicial decree.? It is sad by we see quite a few judges corrupted by filthy lucre and political and crony influence.
So we certainly applaud those brave fellows and women that have been sticklers at exposing the truth and many of us look forward to a fresh documentary addressing the real issues that caused those deaths.
I would like to see also a documentary on the retardant poison issue with the Yarnell deaths attributed to its terrible and devastating distribution and effects on the Yarnell population. Reducing a population of 645 down to 445 and less in 7 years is a horror story in itself. Yet the media has its head in the sand just as they did on the Hunter Biden Story and the poorly and scantily done GMHS death investigation story.
May the Irish Gods bless you or your own and may the Leprechaun be fairly lenient on the gold digger, the liars and political hacks. Saliente
Correction–disregarded safety rules –the only thing flaunted was the management disregard for the safety rules and the true reason for the deaths of the GMHS crew.
More correction–I did not correct that Donut touted the safety rules–He did not but in his way of thinking and speaking with reporters disparaged the safety rules and procedures. Because of his way of thinking and disregard of the safety rules, he found himself in a situation where he was about to be killed along with the crew. It was only that actions of Blue Ridge Crew Boss, Brian Frisby and his wise and risky action to find and remove Donut by ATV. Had the ATV stalled they both would have been dead since there was no possible way to outrun the fire on foot.
The reward Frisby received was an order to keep his mouth shut about what he and his crew knew about the cause of the deaths of the GMHS crew despite his close encounter with death himself and the close proximity to the position of the GMHS crew himself.
There has never been an explanation of why Donut was left in such a dangerous look out point out of sight of the men nor why the GMHS crew was allowed to continuously skirt the safety rules–witnessed by several crew bosses on previous fires. I believe it was Blue Ridge that refused to enter a zone that was against safe procedures and rules, that Marsh gingerly accepted again risking his crew to prove their gall. No one to my knowledge has asked Donut if he now believes the safety 10 and 18 are worth his attention. I would suspect he will still say his instincts were what saved him-not an understanding of how to fight fight fires safely, something he was never understood.
Truth and facts are the only way to cause change to save lives of fire fighters. Those deaths were avoidable and caused only by negligent actions of management. They know that structures are not worth young firefighter lives, yet under the brainwash techniques and disregard of their safety, those young men were lead into a death dealing situation.
I am but a humble citizen, but remember that I stood with Joy Collura on that very two track at the very location those men chose to decend into that steep densely vegetated canyon and impassable dead end box canyon death trap with a fire raging in lower elevations. There was no way I was about to encounter that situation knowing that going up an over to the west side of the Weaver range where sparse vegetation such as we saw early that day with Marsh crossing the fire edge many times without concern.
It begs the credulity of the trainers of that crew and leaves the heart sad that such actions were allowed and not sanctioned. It reminds me of the needless death of my own son, Ted whose life was cut short due to similar careless management.
Certain those young men were heroes but their managers and trainers and those that allowed Eric Marsh to continue as a boss were not. Then to falsify the reasons they were killed was even a worse travesty since future young firefighter lives are left in jeopardy.
There is a documentary being made addressing the truth of the Yarnell killing. I applaud the author, producer and people working at it. I do hope more will contact the main players in such move. I do not expect Donut, Amanda or some of the other people so inexperienced in wild land fire fighting or attempting to put forth their agenda’s to protect reputations and make profit from the tragedy.
I would hope instead that people such as the Blue Ridge Boss, Brian Frisby and others that have respected the safety rules and refused to enter areas that were certain death traps come forward to be part of that documentary. However, I know that there is always the threat of those that were involved in high positions that managed to get mum orders and threats of loss of career and jobs out in order to keep their reputations intact.
But from the dark cloud of secrecy the public will not be denied the truth. I do know such notables and varieties of wisdom and abundant long experience in wild land fire fighting and even world renowned wild land fire death investigator Dr. Ted Putnam along with RTS, WTKTT, Gary Olson, Joy Collura, Norb and others of impeccable reputation and expertise and add a host of witness evidence that will be supporting the documentary. You will get the truth aligned much with what John Daugherty and others have already presented–not some watered down public presentation designed to protect the reputations..
Truth is tantamount concerning the deaths of those men. Add to that the concern that little by the press is mentioned about the many deaths of the Yarnellites–my own included.
I had suffered a massive heart attack only months after Joy and I hiked over a hundred different wild land fire fighters, media persons, and other interested parties into the area because local fire fighters and authorities wanted to keep people out of the area so they could not witness why the men were killed. Joy and I began to notice that our neighbors after the massive dumping of retardant on and about Yarnell began to fall in great numbers. My whole block where I had a cabin on the NW edge of Yarnell and Glen Isla had people dying such that every other home was recording a death or sickness within the first year after the dispersion of the retardant. Just as the covid disease, the retardant exposure attacks the elderly or those with immune deficiency and other ongoing illness.
Joy knew every person of the 645 residents and recognized that even withing the first year after the retardant dumps neighbors and friends were encountering death and disease way beyond what should have been normal. The death rate was approaching a third of the residents in only three years and even to this day illness and disease such as heart, lung and cancer issues come up due to the harsh chemicals laden in the retardant.
Certain the retardant does not show its effects on the young 19-21 year old wild land fire fighter, but if you look at the skewed incidents of cancer, COPD, heart disease and other chemical related diseases in the older wild land fire fighter, you will see that the statistical correlation is extremely high. This should be taken into account for the wild land fire fighter and his compensation and heath care benefits.
I am an underground miner–have been in and out of mines since I was nine years of age. Through the years I worked as a hard rock miner in many different mines–some were my own. So I spent only about two years in the Uranium mines–those were at Church Rock, Grants, and Seboyeta mines all in New Mexico. United Nuclear, Kerr McGhee and Standard Oil of Ohio were the owners and operators of those mines. I have had a barrage of cancer–something none of my siblings (3) have had any of.
I say this to show how chemicals can and will affect your health–radiation from drill cuttings and dust that plastered my clothes and person were enough to cause these surface cancers. So do not take the chemical inundations by retardant lightly–those Israeli companies that do most of the exporting of the retardant concoctions are not interested in your health more than their profits. There are few fires in the deserts of Israel but plenty reasons to use trade secret laws to hide the chemicals they use in these deadly dispersions.
With the great horror of being on of the last citizens to see the 19 GMHS young men alive shortly before their deaths, I have had to see many of the Yarnell residents turn from healthy individuals to ill and depressed, then deceased friends–all so someone could profit from the chemical dispersion of retardant. Facts do not lie–those Yarnell deaths from wild land fire fighter to the many citizens all had causes–none were accidents or to be blamed on God.
There is a memorial now at the death site of the deceased GMHS crew. It would be a greater memorial to construct a memorial of dark granite (much like the Vietnam Wall Memorial) and placed in the center of the town of Yarnell. The list would be headed by the 19 GMHS crew followed by the list of those killed by the excessive retardant dumps of 2013 and 2015 that poisoned the citizens of Yarnell.
If you google Chernobyl Memormial Monument you see a fantastic memorial to the victims of the Chernobyl radioactive meltdown. The victims of the Yarnell fire go beyond the GMHS crew heroes and would by now include above 200 deaths in that small village of 645 people since the fire and dispersion of the orange and red chemical retardant. In truth, the death from the chemicals dispersed on Yarnell under secret ingredient and ammonium and phosphate poisons has statistically surpassed the deaths due to the radiation at Chenobyl. It is a reminder of the dangers of the retardant chemicals both those known and those secreted under trade secret laws. The deaths of so many citizens at Yarnell speaks to the health expectations of the wild land fire fighter and others exposed to the toxic chemicals
Joy did send me an email of a post of Amanda Marsh’s thoughts about how people should treat their posting. I believe Joy is posting that on her site? She had written to stick with the facts–good idea since her deceased husband did kill 18 young wild land firefighters by his negligent and demanding actions. There is nothing to brag about concerning the actions of Marsh–and yes as she says, “people make mistakes”. Oh Lord help us when people use excuses for their negligent actions when it destroys the lives of so many. I can only be saddened what was done to kill those men when there was absolutely no justification for the risks taken–Marsh and others had to have known that to get into that manzanita overgrowth was a compounded risk with wind change apt, no lookout, and in a dead end canyon. Marsh was known and reported by competent men to be taking risks with his men where they should not have been taken. Donut himself testified to earlier instance of barely escaping beside the competent and wise old timer firemen such as RTS and Honda of long years of experience.
If anything is important it is to expose the truth so that such bravado at the needless risk of live is recognized and certainly not rewarded but frowned upon.
Some days that I wake up above ground I have to contemplate my own survival and that of the residents of Yarnell. Many of us are on a thin line between life and death and the story of Yarnellites is a horror story that only Edgar Allen Poe could express It indeed is a gloom similar to the Bliblical death angel that came though to kill all the first born unless you were a Jew with sheep blood splashed upon your door. But in the Yarnell story the death angel splashed retardant upon your door to assign disease and death all the while putting scales upon the public eyes.
This indeed is a horror story observed from the spirit dimention with amazement at the credulity of humanity concerning the horror that engulfed and continues at Yarnell beginning with the deaths of the 19 GMHS yet continuing the curse even to this day.
Yet the propaganda for the dispersion of these deadly and life destroying chemicals continues to profit the liars promoting the use of these deadly chemicals. Little is said about Yarnellites and the many deaths there–like the deaths of the 19, nothing is learned because truth is hidden by mum orders, trade secrets, fear of authority, and outright lies from those involved. The human and aquatic deaths will continue, the ocean dead zones will expand and the gullible public will continue to swallow hook line and sinker.
Yet despite the horror show there is always some light–some brave souls willing to stand up for that which is proper, honest. They are willing to do the right thing and speak the truth to the public.
John Daugherty has been foremost in his efforts to those ends. He has presented many articles from his investigations and received many journalistic awards for his presentations of facts he uncovered in those investigations. As a Journalists he understands the importance of the First Amendment and the free flow of ideas, opinions and facts –something shown by this ongoing discussion concerning the deaths of the 19 GMHS wild land fire fighters.
I would hope John receives another award for his work in the area of truth about the Yarnell deaths of the GMHS crew. I know also that Scottie Briggs has been working on a documentary and has relied much on information gleaned from this site as well as his interviews. These people all seek the truth and bravely go forward to present those truths. Their efforts though often painful will not go unrewarded. They are all bound to save lives–enough reward in itself.
A correction on the above ground writing–that should have read blood on the doors of the Israelites–Judah was only one of the twelve tribes–the Israelites included the Jews and today many Isreaelites will remind you that they are not all Jewish decedents.
Musing about the day of the deaths, the Journey of Joy Collura and Sonny Gilligan that began in Dolan Springs, Arizona and eventually included the life changing tragedy concerning the deaths of 19 young wild land fire fighters at Yarnell, Arizona.
That day of those deaths and our meeting with Eric Marsh on that mountain side and at the fire edge in the boulder field where it was then burning has a profound effect on my psychic. I knew somehow that that day would have a historic significance and things I was doing and saying to Joy were coming from my subconscious awareness–I had passed the men and said they look like they are on their death march–all through that ordeal, I was contantly urging Joy to take photos–something I knew were to be of great importance–she will tell you she was some annoyed by my urgency because her photo taking was mostly relegated to wild life. When we were on that two track looking down into that death canyon I had the extreme knowing that we had to remove ourselves from the area quickly. Joy can tell you when I went back for her I was greatly agitated and going out I was doing everything to urge her on including telling her that helicopters were carrying them out in body bags–and in those days I was really thinking the bags underneath the copters we were seeing were actually that. The urgency paid off since in truth we ourselves only escaped by minutes–perhaps 5 or 10 at the most–something we realized only after revisiting the escape route and before we understood how wild land fire fighters fight fire with fire. They had set fire to protect Yarnell while the wind and wild fire was going away from Yarnell–that was about to change abruptly and that was why we were near caught in a death trap ourselves.
Because I have lived out of doors much of my life–even when I was mining at the Chruch Rock mine, I had a small tent at a camp ground for quite a while until I moved into one of the company provided trailers. I had done that at various times–much like the wild land fire fighter–the outdoors is no stranger to those that indulge in that occupation for some time.
We do develop abilities in an environment so that we can sense things. Joy is an unique individual with those psychic abilities–she reads people like a book –however she like a few others had to some degree doubted those. She had consulted a well known and practicing Psychic to tune into the killing of the 19. When the Psychic talked to Joy she told Joy that indeed the she herself was humbled by Joy’s presence–she told Joy that she sensed that Joy had greater Psychic abilities than her own–yet she was willing to join Joy in the quest to know more about the unanswered questions concerning those deaths. Doing that type thing takes a lot from a Psychic–it is a drainer of the Spirit and can be a painful reliving of the event feeling the tragedy and pain involved.
Of course some one said they would be offended if a Psychic were involved–but they do have one involved and do not understand it. It of course is understood by quantum physics and there are a number of Physicists that are psychics and have worked for the CIA with some very good results describing situations by the quieting of the mind, meditation, and directing the mind to a location and time.
So yes, Jesus was a very good Psychic–but so are many others–he did list it as one of the gifts of the spirit that some have in high degree. Joy is well blessed with that gift.
Another year is upon us and many of us are fortunate to see the new year in–especially those heroes in the wild fire fighting industry. Those of us in the public certainly appreciate your work and like the veteran of wars you engage in dangerous work to protect people, resources and property–often at your own peril. But those of you that work in this industry know the dangers but pride yourselves in what you do and rightfully so. We pray for your safety and welfare in the coming season of wild fires that have become even more intense and dangerous as time and weather changes occur.
We are saddened when a fire man or lady is hurt or killed–why the truth is so important and why so many want to have that and see change where it is needed. Perhaps this new year of 2021 will be a safer year as people learn from errors of the past.
We can only salute those that continue to expose fallacy where it is hidden so that the occupation maintains a level of safety that it deserves. Structures are not worth lives in any way–let them burn rather than take excess chance to kill young people such as we saw at Yarnell. We can never respect the bosses that because of their hubris or negligence cause the death of their crews.
So may the Irish Gods bless you or your own God or idea of one–what you think is possible and good thoughts and intentions toward others including prayers do well. Be safe, be smart and sometimes listen to the wise ones. You never know when you are entertaining an angel.
A bit of an update on Yarnell after talking to Joy–Mr. Flippins passed now–he was our neighbor up the street a few houses. This gentleman was in excellent health before the fire and often spoke at the town meetings. But he is not the only one passes since I last talked to Joy–there were four more she listed and stated that every one on my street that was covered with red retardant has cancer –and a couple of those people were what you might term health nuts–they took really good care of their health but you can see that a good health regimen is no defense against the retardant chemicals.
My condolences to the Flippen family–that man I took to be in his 50’s and fit as a fiddle. The others listed by Joy she knew as friends and I knew on a casual basis and know their health problems in almost all cases came after the inundation of Yarnell with the orange and red agent retardant poisons.
I hope the forthcoming documentary carries the truth about the poisonous concoction that was delivered in thousands of gallons on Yarnell in all areas of the small village. If Scott or any media or health authority person were to walk down the streets of Yarnell and knock doors to inquire they would find the situation to be alarming.
Sad that the GMHS crew were killed and now the statistics of the deaths of citizens is beyond doubt due to the toxic retardant chemicals dispersed though out and about the small village. Yet the problem seems to be a minor blip as far as health officials and politicians are concerned.
Maybe the honchos involved in the killing of the 19 are designed not to feel bad about their stupid attempts at quelling the 2013 Yarnell Wildfire. After all, awards were handed out after the fire and people congratulated for a great job.. The tragedy of the 19 sudden deaths by burnover of the GMHS crew was treated as an accident so there was no reason to have anything but the sadness of loss and the feeling for Eric Marsh, the main cause was one from many that said we might have been Marsh. Well the exception was about 100 wild land fighters that said they would have never done that and had to scratch their heads as to why Marsh would risk his crew and then take his own life after giving the death order. So I have often talked about the chemical attacks upon the health of the wild land fire fighter but over the years Marsh has not been the only boss that wound up killing his crew because of careless action or perhaps ignorance.
But then it is a sick world these days when politicians that run the country are outright crooks and even flaunt the fact. It is an epidemic of liars and cheaters in government and cowards that know it and are afraid to come forward with the truth. Well not all, since I see that Dr. Ted Putnam did not fear one damn bit and knew he was risking his reputation and livelihood by refusing to sign off on the death investigation of the 14 killed at the Storm King wild fire. There are a number of others that do talk out but most are retired from other parts of the country. Those that worked the Yarnell Fire are reserved–they have jobs and unlike Ted are not going to risk their testimonies to the truth.
These days I do not bother with main media–just too damn much hype and obvious. In regards to the Yarnell effort they too glossed over the truth and accepted the “official” story. Journalists are not real journalists these days–they are like the wild land fire fighters that knew the truth at Yarnell but zipped up and continue to do so. Donut is a foremost example of it–his story has changed so often–that is the trouble with a lie and how detectives ferret out a liar–they forget the original lie they told so when they retell it the story changes. Donut has excuse though–PTSD and perhaps dope messed with his brain so the dummies that accept his story have not noticed how it varies depending upon who he is talking with.
Of course a whole nation can be suffering mental illness and it seems to be as contagious as Covid 19 when we can elect a criminal organization into the highest offices of the land. Shame on them but salute the brave, strong and the honest–there are so few left.
Slainte
I just got back from Phoenix visit with my son whose prostate cancer has been a voracious variety so much that doctors say they have never seen this happen–prostate cancer is a slow moving thing. But in his case kemo has not been helping so they are adding radiation treatments starting today. You can imagine his despair and my own to witness this tragedy.
Science has made some great advances in genome therapy and I pray something will be discovered to thwart this terrible disease. There is a company that is now under FDA approval to do tests with a cure for prostate cancer–ISO-Ray is the company FDA approved for testing a cancer cure by genomic methods I believe–something some might want to look into.
Next to skin cancer, Prostate cancer is the second most common cancer among men. About 10 to 15% get the active variety–and I would guess according to the Oncologists in Phoenix my son have one they have never before witnessed concerning its aggressiveness
This world has become so chemically tainted from not only mining operations and forest fire retardant operations, plastics, oil and coal pollutants, it is appalling. . Whole cities have had to be moved such as the one in Missouri while most do not understand the dangers of these insidious chemical pollutant dispersion on the environment and human habitations.
Yet if you dare to visit the people of Yarnell door to door –that is what is left of them–you will come to a rude awakening. It may be an awakening that could save your life.
So you can see why I applaud the efforts of John Daugherty as he risks his own life to challenge the mining interests that want to destroy environments and pollute ground water and fresh water sources. The count of human lives that are no longer with us is behind the smoke and mirrors of industry and profit makers. What good is all the money in the world if your health is sacrifice–will even the tulips your polluted body provides nourishment for also be sick?
A few weeks back my first ex wife, Angie is now buried–much younger than I–almost 10 years. Yet cancer took her unawares and a sad thing because all my children are by her. Yet she was the epitome of good health–I expected she would live many years beyond my own and I was saddened by her death just as I am saddened by so many needless chemical deaths at the small village of Yarnell, Arizona after what I term the agent orange retardant dispersion.
You may think I harp too much against the retardant and other chemicals. Some would even want to jail JD because he was hindering “progress” at these mines exposing their skullduggery. The truth is, what I have put in parenthesis “progress” should be more correctly written “profits”. Greed blinds these people and progress is their term to cover their criminal tracks.
One psychologist–not me– says it takes 21 exposures to a truth before it can soak in to make changes. Maybe I have harped only 10 times so bear and may those that are dense suffer the treatments. If you save one life you saved a world. Slainte
And to make it clear, I am not a psychologist–though I have graduated from NMSU with a degree in Psychology. From there it was counseling and then religion.
The man who is most capable to help curb needless killing of wild land fire people is Dr. Ted Putnam. He should be foremost in any documentary due not only to his actual 15 years as a wild land fire fighter and smoke jumper, but because of his rigorous concern and exacting investigative methods and strict adherence to honesty. He certainly will not sacrifice integrity or skip facts to arrange a narrative to make himself or the system look good. He sees the lives and safety of wild land fire fighters as foremost. May others follow his example.
Reply to OZWFF post on November 12, 2020 at 9:46 pm
>> OZWFF said…
>>
>> It still bugs me who it is talking to Brown and walking around like he’s in charge
>> of the SAR mission in those Tom Story photos. Maybe it is Kimball just knocking
>> around the place doing what he can to help but that guy does look more like
>> overhead doing some “direction” to me. Hence my proposal it could be Cordes.
I don’t think there’s much of a chance it was Cordes.
Still appears to be Byron Kimball.
And I’m not getting the same sense as you, just based on the Tom Story photographs, that this guy ( Byron Kimball? ) was ‘directing’ anyone in particular… or that he was actually ‘in charge’ of any of the ‘Search and Rescue’ efforts.
Byron Kimball was ‘overhead’ that day, fer sure, but his official capacity was simply FBAN.
In his ADOSH interview, Byron Kimball says that basically all day long he was reporting ‘directly back to Roy ( Hall )’, the Incident Commander, about everything he was seeing and learning as he traveled around the fire.
He also says he ended up doing the same thing post-deployment.
Reporting what was happening back to Roy Hall.
Kimball also told ADOSH that, as an FBAN, he was definitely NOT part of ‘Operations’ and the reason he didn’t hear the Granite Mountain deployment radio traffic is that as simply an FBAN, he tries to stay off the radio as much as possible.
————————————————————————————————–
1453 A: I just was – I – as a fire behavior analyst because I am not directly involved in
1454 operations, if I don’t need to be on the radio…
1455
1456 Q1: Yeah.
1457
1458 A: …I stay off of it.
1459
1460 Q1: Yeah.
——————————————————————————————————–
Kimball also tells ADOSH that after the deployment, and when he arrived at the RHR, he saw his role as just being a ‘contact back to base’ ( As in… back to Roy Hall )…
——————————————————————————————————–
1597 A: Um, go down to Ranch House
1598 restaurant tie in with ah, Todd there and start to assist however I could there
1599 um, just basically being a, either a contact back to – back to the base…
——————————————————————————————————–
Kimball also tells ADOSH that when the news came over the radio about “18 confirmed”… Kimball was the one who informed IC Roy Hall right away… but he still wasn’t considering that ‘official’ and he asked Todd Abel to also call Roy…
——————————————————————————————————–
1688 A: They had medevac helicopters there. Ah, they were set up and – and ready –
1689 ready to go. It didn’t take long. Um, got the confirmation ah, had just talked to
1690 Roy. Called him back and said you’re gonna to get, you know, this is un- this
1691 is unofficial from me. I’m gonna go tell Todd to call you also but we’ve got
1692 18 confirmed.
1693
1694 Q1: Hm.
1695
1696 A: And ah, went and stuck my head in the window to Todd hey, you know, make
1697 sure you give Roy a call, let him know what’s going on. He said he would.
———————————————————————————————————
So none of that sounds like ( to me, anyway ) a guy who thought he was really “in charge” of anything other than his FBAN duties that day. He was just ‘there’ and gathering information and trying to keep Roy Hall informed about what was happening.
>> OZWFF also said…
>>
>> By the way I believe the Musser/Cordes meeting on HWY 89
>> is actually captured in the short video (Yarnell USB020)
>> shot by Guadiana.
I totally agree.
And Tony Sciacca himself even SAYS that is what was happening. See below.
Here’s where that video is in the Public Evidence Dropbox…
USB YARNELL HILL 020.avi
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACsLm8p8B-wc-JzgAgGrUNta/Photos%20and%20Video/AZFS%20photos%20videos?dl=0&preview=USB+YARNELL+HILL+020.avi&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
The Poxy Blue Truck ( PBT ) is right there to the left of Cordes’ vehicle. Headlights are on ( engine running, too, maybe? ) but there appears to be no one sitting in it.
But here comes another round of “White-Helmet-Whack-a-Mole”.
The FF with the WHITE helmet who is standing there with his back to the camera between the PBT and Cordes’ CYFD truck ( with camper top ) does NOT appear to be OPS2 Paul Musser.
That FF with the WHITE helmet standng there is almost certainly Tony Sciacca.
At +0:09 seconds into the Hulburd M2U00262 video we actually a ‘close-up’ view of the back of Sciacca’s white helmet. He had a little ‘strap’ hanging down from the neck guard onto his yellow Nomex shirt.
The FF with the WHITE helmet in the Guadiana USB020 video appears to be showing that exact same ‘strap’ hanging down on the back of his helmet.
Plus, Sciacca was bit shorter ( and thinner ) than Musser, and that ‘thin’ profile matches that FF with the WHITE helmet standing there in USB020.
We get good looks at both Sciacca’s LEFT and RIGHT sides in the M2U00262 video and it does not appear that Sciacca had any kind of ( black ) holster for a radio anywhere on his belt… as Musser obviously had that day on his RIGHT side belt.
That FF with the WHITE helmet in the USB020 video obviously has a Bendix-King radio on his LEFT side… but it appears to simply be ‘clipped’ to his belt and NOT in a holster since we can SEE the RED BK battery against his pants.
Sciacca’s red/white Prescott FD pickup ( with the camper top ) is not visible there across the street… but Sciacca might have simply parked on the other side of Hwy 89. There was obviously room to pull off / park there since that’s where Guadina is filming from and supposedly his engine/vehicle is also parked.
Cordes was sitting in his truck while this video was taken.
At +0:11 through +0:13 seconds, you can see an arm with a yellow Nomex shirt leaning out the driver’s side window of Cordes’ CYFD vehicle.
OPS2 Paul Musser was almost certainly sitting in the truck WITH Cordes at the time this Guadiana USB020 video was taken.
** THIS GUADIANA USB020 VIDEO WAS TAKEN AT 4:06:41 PM, SUNDAY, JUNE 30, 2013
The original EXIF embedded timestamp in this Jake Guadiana USB020 video said it was taken at 4:16:46 PM… but that is not correct.
It has been proven that the digital camera ( not a smartphone ) that Guadiana used to shoot all his videos at Yarnell ( a Canon Powershot MVI06 ) was timestamping the videos right at 10 minutes and 5 seconds AHEAD of the REAL TIME that day.
So subtracting the known 10 minutes and 5 seconds gives an ACTUAL timestamp for this video of 4:06:41 PM.
That 4:06:41 PM time for this video actually matches when Tony Sciacca told ADOSH that he first “tied in” with Gary Cordes ( on the side of HWY 89 )…
From Sciacca’s ADOSH interview…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = Tony Sciacca, Safety Officer, Yarnell Hill Fire
——————————————————————————————————–
509 A: About four – uh, a little bit before 4:00, I wasn’t there long, not even an hour
510 and you could see – you could feel that wind starting to pull and you could see
511 that the fire behavior that was starting to move back to, uh, back to the south
512 and east a little bit. It would stand up and lay back down. Just kind of pulsing
513 a little bit with the winds, standing up.
514
515 Q1: Right.
516
517 A: Laying down, standing up, laying down. And then as I started to come
518 around, back out to his main road because there was a helicopter dip site up in
519 here…
520
521 Q1: Right.
522
523 A: …you know, I want to make sure that traffic guy talked to – talked to, uh, uh,
524 Roy Hall when I first got…
525
526 Q1: Right.
527
528 A: …there. I said I had a concern about some – some helicopters.
529
530 Q2: Oh yeah, over the road?
531
532 A: Yeah. So I came back around and when I got into here, before I got – yeah
533 I tied into, uh, Gary Cordes. Gary Cordes from Central Yavapai
556 A: …he ( Cordes ) was pulling his resources out.
557
558 Q1: Oh okay. So he had already done that and…
559
560 A: He was in the process of doing that…
561
562 Q1: Oh okay.
563
564 A: …when I pulled up on him.
——————————————————————————————————-
Last but not least…
A little later in Sciacca’s ADOSH interview he gives more detail about this ‘meetup’ he had with Gary Cordes. Sciacca actually SAYS that Gary Cordes was meeting with Paul Musser when he “pulled up” to them ( there on HWY 89 )…
———————————————————————————————————-
911 Q1: Yeah. Uh, and Gary Cordes was the – he was the group, uh, structure
912 protection group for the Yarnell end?
913
914 A: I believe. Uh, I never did get my arms fully around that. I ran – I knew Gary
915 because he works in the neighboring…
916
917 Q1: Right.
918
919 A: Got over there, Paul and him ( Cordes ) were visiting on the side of the road.
920
921 Q1: Oh okay.
922
923 A: Pulled in. I said, “What do you guys got going on?” You know, you’re
924 safety, yadda, yadda, yadda, ya. I introduced myself. The guy says, “Well
925 we’re just pulling out.”
——————————————————————————————————–
So there’s really no doubt that Jake Guadiana’s USB020 video ( shot at 4:06:41 PM captured this moment when OPS2 Paul Musser was meeting with SPGS1 Gary Cordes on the side of HWY 89 and that really is Tony Sciacca standing there in-between Musser’s ‘Poxy Blue Truck ( PBT ) and Cordes’ CYFD truck.
Thanks again WTKTT!
I buy that explanation! I think it is Sciacca on HWY 89 and Musser must have been “visiting” with Cordes in his truck.
I am leaning towards Kimball at RHR too. If that guy really was directing anything then he would have been talking to Frisby who was right there rather than Brown and it seems Musser makes a beeline for Frisby when he arrives in the PBT to do exactly that.
As a plus for me, the ear shape of the guy in profile in the Tom Story photo seems to match that of Kimball in the link you posted – as well as his body shape. So you are on the money again there I think!
Thank you again!
OZWFF
WTKTT,
Just a quick thought about the HWY 89 meeting. I thought the white hat standing there was actually Musser.
Here’s why:
The shape of his helmet is a closer match to Musser rather than Sciaccas. Musser seems to have traditional shape whereas Sciacc seems to have more of a peaked affair going on.
Yes the radio is clipped to the guys belt which either man could have done. However the way his body is turned it’s impossible to see whether or not he has that “tool holder” on his right hip as Musser does.
But the shirt colour does seem closer to Sciaccas. Just can’t get past that helmet shape, maybe a trick of poor film quality’!
All done without enhancing! Your thoughts?
OZWFF
My thoughts on that would be that if someone had a radio holster ( like the M2U00264 video clearly shows Musser did… on his RIGHT side )… then why wouldn’t that person simply USE it?
Why would you bother taking the time to ‘clip’ your radio to your belt on your LEFT side if you had a perfectly good radio holster on your RIGHT side.
For me… it’s that little “neck guard strap” hanging down onto the collar of the Nomex shirt that almost clinches it. That same little ‘strap’ is seen ‘hanging down’ onto Sciacca’s collar just a little while later, in the M2U00264 video shot at the Shrine parking lot.
Musser had no such ‘strap’ hanging down onto his shirt collar that day.
Plus… body type. Musser was ‘chunkier’ than Sciacca, and the body type of the FF with the white helmet in the Guadiana USB020 video seems to match Sciacca much moreso than Musser.
Question for YOU…
Who do you think the Blue Ridge Hotshot is, seen coming around Cordes’ truck and heading off to the RIGHT at the very start of the video?
Looks like he had just been speaking with Cordes through the driver’s side window, got some kind of ‘assignment’… and now he’s hurrying off to do that.
Do you think that could actually be DOZB Cory Ball?
In his own testimony, Cory Ball says he recieved instructions from SPGS1 ( Cordes ) to “scout out” an “emergency dozer line” to try and protect Glen Ilah.
It’s always been assumed those “instructions” came over the radio…. but what if they did not?
What if DOZB Cory Ball somehow made his way up HWY 89 to where Cordes was ‘staged’… in order to ‘report’ about the Sesame area dozer line work already completed, and he received these NEW instructions about another “emergency dozer line” directly from Cordes… in person… right there at Cordes’ truck?
If that Blue Ridge Hotshot was NOT Cory Ball… then who do you think it was and what was he doing there, at that time ( 4:06 PM ). All other Blue Ridge Hotshots were, at that very moment, evacuating from the Sesame-to-Shrine dozer line to their buggies staged at the Youth Camp.
Thoughts?
Correction for the last post.
The Hulburd video that shows ( most clearly ) the little neck-guard ‘strap’ dangling down on the back of Tony Sciacca’s helmet is video M2U00262… and not M2U00264.
M2U00262 is the one that starts where Sciacca is on the phone getting someone to text him Paul Musser’s phone number… and ends with Sciacca saying he is “like a moth to flame”.
Hi WTKTT,
Yep, the tag has it. I agree the guy at the HWY 89 meet standing between Cordes’ truck and the PBT is Sciacca. Musser must indeed be in Cordes’ truck with him.
As for the BR guy. Yes, I believe it is BR Hotshot. What is distinctive about him is his shirt open at least two buttons but even more distinctive he either has his trousers tucked into his boots or they are short (like Frisby’s).
In all the photos and videos containing BR Hotshots there aren’t any I can see of a Hotshot with trousers tucked into his boots. And the only Hotshot who’s trousers look short is Frisby and it can’t be him. So if you can find another picture of this firefighter with that arrangement of his trousers and can show it;s Ball, then he’s your man.
Also, the only BR Hotshot who could possibly be there at that time is, as you say, Ball. Onto my other contention. Balls 2 photos taken out of a truck delivering him to Yarnell Fire Station to pick up the ATV for his “Cordes Hail Mary” task.
I recall you guys wondering if it was Musser. I think it’s more likely Cordes.
Here’s why:
If Ball was at HWY 89 with Musser and Cordes hatching the plan, how did he get there? We already know he had to be dropped off to pick up the ATV. So he wasn’t self mobile was he and this is before he retrieved the BR ATV trailer?
If we assume that is Ball, somebody took him to the meet and somebody took him from the meet to YH Fire Station. The only person going to the meet from the south at that time that we can see there was Cordes (Sciacca and Musser arrived from the north).
Then there are Balls photos arriving at the station in someones truck. Cannot be Mussers truck, we have already established he was driving the PBT. Cannot be Sciacca either because the truck he was driving had a distinct crease down the centre of the hood which isn’t in Balls photos. From the HWY 89 meeting that leaves Cordes’ truck. Ignoring Cordes’ timeline, his truck I think also is more of a match for what’s in Balls photos. There appears to be an internal emergency light box mounted on the dash to the left side of Balls photo – matches the lights seen in various other photos of Cordes’ truck? There is a distinct hood bulge on the right side of the photo which matches the shape of the hood on Cordes’ truck (big folds going down each side)? The windshield vents, as far as I can tell, are a match for a 2012/2013 Ford truck.
All the above is conjecture and a long winded way of saying yes, I agree that is highly likely it could be Ball and I think Cordes delivered him to Yarnell Fire Station after the HWY 89 meeting.
All interesting and all my replies done from memory as I’m not with my notes – so apologies if my times are off or my sequence of events doesn’t quite match investigation statements!
Over to you!
OZWFF
Reply to OZWFF post on November 11, 2020 at 3:03 pm
>> OZWFF said…
>>
>> Dear WTKTT,
>>
>> Many thanks for your comprehensive reply!
You are most welcome.
I still think the DETAILS of that day ( including who was driving what vehicle, where they were at what time, etc. ) are important to know in order to verify things people have testified to/about.
You obviously know the public evidence record REALLY well. Kudos.
SIDENOTE: Anyone who just uses the ‘RR’ letters for the “Russ Reason” video and assumes everyone knows that is what is being referenced must, in fact, have been ‘following this discussion’ for quite some time.
I’m going to break this ‘Reply’ to your ‘Reply’ into a couple of different posts since there will be some ‘links’ to photos and whatnot, and I think we are back to only being allowed ONE LINK per post.
You covered a lot of ground in your ‘Reply’, and I want to be sure you get some answers ( as far as I know anything ) to all the questions you have.
>> OZWFF also said…
>>
>> I find it interesting it could be Byron Kimball and I agree there are similarities.
If it isn’t Kimball… then ( based on his statements to ADOSH ) one of the other FFs seen in those various ‘huddles’ at the RHR must be him… since that’s what he told ADOSH he was doing there at the RHR at the time all those Tom Story photos were taken.
>> OZWFF also said…
>>
>> also thinking it could actually be Gary Cordes and I’ll lay out my reasoning below.
Okay.
I read it all and will ‘Reply’ to all that in another post with some links and stuff.
>> OWFF also said…
>>
>> First to your question about Rance Marquez in the RR video.
>>
>> I recall there was a lot of discussion about that video
>> (mainly between you and Marti) back in the day. As part
>> of that discussion I think one of you said Marquez is in
>> the video at arouns the 1:38 mark stepping behind the
>> Blue Ridge Hotshot and hiding when he sees the camera
>> turned towards him. That persons appearance, clothing
>> and radio harness matched your belief of what Marquez
>> looked like. So I have taken that person to be him – my
>> apologies if this view has subsequently changed and I missed it!
I don’t recall ever saying ( or believing ) that the FF who is seen ‘hiding’ from the approaching video camera in the Russ Reason ( RR ) video was DIVZ Rance Marquez.
Maybe it was Marti? ( or someone else? ). Dunno.
I think it’s been established that Rance Marquez was NOT at the Ranch House Restaurant ( RHR ) in the timeframe when the Russ Reason ( RR ) video was shot.
In his ADOSH interview, Rance Marquez did say that he was put in charge of one of the ‘search and rescue’ groups being organized following the deployment, and that the rally point was the RHR… but he is not specific about exactly WHEN he eventually drove down from the Sickles Ranch Road area ( where he had been doing structure protection pre-deployment ) to the RHR itself. ADOSH didn’t actually press him for details on that.
Marquez did seem to indicate ( to ADOSH ) that he was at the RHR when the fire finally swept into that area and he was hearing ‘propane tanks exploding’ in the Glen Ilah area… but that would have been some time AFTER the RR video was shot.
Marquez also told ADOSH he remembers seeing a civilian being administered oxygen at the RHR before being loaded into an ambulance… but again… that would have been a good while AFTER the RR video.
I have always been pretty convinced that the FF seen ‘backing up’ and ‘hiding’ from the camera in the RR video is/was Charlie Reyes, the captain of Engine 59 ( the one who first informed SPGS1 Gary Cordes of the GM deployment when Cordes arrived at the RHR parking lot ).
Charlie Reyes is KNOWN to have been right there in that RHR parking lot at the exact time the RR video was taken.
Just two weeks before the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, on June 13, 2013, the Prescott Daily Courier published a photo of Charlie Reyes.
That article ( and photo of Charlie Reyes ) can still be viewed here…
https://www.dcourier.com/news/2013/jun/13/camp-courage-helps-burn-survivors-focus-on-fun-le/
As the photo caption says, Reyes is the fourth one from the left, standing in the back, with the sunglasses and no hat.
In that photo taken just 2 weeks before Yarnell, Reyes is seen to be sporting an unusual haircut. Somewhere between a mullet and a close-crop mohawk.
The frames at +1:37 into the Russ Reason video probably give the ‘best look’ at this FF who ‘hides’ as the camera approaches. He was looking right at the approaching camera, at that point, and that is the moment he begins to ‘back up’ and ‘hide’ from it.
In the few frames just before he ‘disappears’ behind the tall Blue Ridge Hotshot ( who is now also ‘hiding’ Brendan McDonough from the approaching camera ) is when you get the best look at his face and the top of his head. The face, body type and the unusual haircut all appear to ‘match’ what is seen in that other June 13, 2013 photo of Charlie Reyes.
I have never been SURE it was Reyes… but that is still where I would put my money.
( Continued in next ‘Reply’ )…
Thanks mate!
I have spent a bit more time trying to nail down the who/what/where in this particular timeframe and the connection to RHR. I think I may have to withdraw my contention what Musser was driving and defer to you! But I’ll drop in my thinking on that and other things later.
It still bugs me who it is talking to Brown and walking around like he’s in charge of the SAR mission in those Tom Story photos. Maybe it is Kimball just knocking around the place doing what he can to help but that guy does look more like overhead doing some “direction” to me. Hence my proposal it could be Cordes.
This is all very confusing and your historic wrestling with poor investigations and poorly executed basic fact finding was and is admirable! I’ll try and put together some more lucid thoughts about that period – for me it revolves around the movements of 2 people sepcifically,,,,,Paul Musser and Gary Cordes.
By the way I believe the Musser/Cordes meeting on HWY 89 is actually captured in the short video (Yarnell USB020) shot by Guadiana.
OZWFF
Okay, here’s where I’m at with this now and thank you for your patience!
Musser was driving the blue pickup (I call it the Poxy Blue Truck, PBT, because it has been a pain in the backside to match with events and people);
Tony Sciacca was driving the white PFWFD truck with the covered tray;
Charlie Reyes is the dude wearing the shirt with Central Yavapai Fire written on the back;
Rance Marquez is the hiding guy in the RR video and it isn’t Frisby standing next to him (the guy in the ballcap with arms folded);
The RHR “rally point” established by Abel is next to the fire hydrant and out of sight of anyone who took photos of that area except one person so time for me is unknown.
Here’s the “why’s”:
The blue pickup matches everything Musser did and says he did during this period. It is captured in all of the pictures and videos taken that recorded him.
Sciacca is confirmed at the Shrine in the very first part of the Hulburd video when Yowell refers to him as “Tony”. At that point as the camera pans around (and before the first inconvenient cut) there is only one white hat visible and it shows the PFWFD truck parked up (helmet shape and logo match the driver caught driving it past Panebaker earlier). It is also seen in all videos and pictures captured at the places he and others said he was present. By the way, I really don’t think he was the overhead who told the evacuating drivers in the Youth Camp to leave the FF as they couldn’t run fast enough.
Reyes told Cordes about the deployment. He was Engine Boss of Central Yavapai ENG 59. The guy with that shirt on is in all the right places in Story and Lees photos to have been him.
Compare the dude looking away from the camera in Swartz 1843 at the RHR rally point. Clothing, haircut pattern, radio harness to the guy in the RR video. I think they are the same guy just without the helmet. The guy at the rally point has to be Rance Marquez and I think Carrouthers is the other whit helmet in that group.
Frisby is not the guy in the RR video with the ball cap. He is a lot slighter build and he never took his helmet or glasses off at RHR. If you look at him and True in the third Hulburd video when they are waiting at the Shrine deciding to break through you can see many traits of the guy who isn’t True and they do not match that guy in the RR video. Those two BR Hotshots in that video have to be Frisby and Brown.
The RHR rally point is shown in Swartz 1843 and 1844.
Who is “briefing” Trueheart Brown in the Story photos? I really think it could be Cordes. More on that line of thinking later!
Thanks again for indulging me and I apologise if this is raking over ground you feel is already put to bed. If it is please say so and I’ll stop commenting!!
OZWFF
Sorry,
Forgot my most compelling piece of reasoning why the guy with the ballcap in the RR video cannot be Frisby……d’uh!
Look at the Hulburd video when they are in Shrine deciding to break through. The two BR Hotshots have to be Frisby and Brown. If you look at the guy walking away to where the propane tank is venting (who is Brian Frisby), look at the bottom of his trousers. They are at the top of his boots (i.e. they look short). the guy in the RR videos trousers go down all the way over his boots. He also has a different larger, more solid belt buckle.
If you then start looking in the first couple of RHR Tom Story photos for the guy with shorter trousers and his helmet and dark framed safety glasses on, you can find him right there – to the left of Brown talking to the mystery overhead.
OZWFF
I just posted a response to this ( and your other November 12 post directly above ) up at the top as a new ‘parent comment’, to get more ‘column space’ for the ‘Reply.
My full ‘Reply’ is here…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxxi-here/#comment-484971
Just a quick reply to let you know I’m working on longer replies to ALL of this… you just caught me at a moment when I have some other pressing issues. I’ll get there.
A LOT of this “ground” is definitely NOT “put to bed”… in my mind.
I have arrived at certain conclusions based on the evidence ( and I will explain WHY, as you requested )… but as you know yourself… a LOT of this still comes down to playing white-helmet-whack-a-mole and relying on frustrating photos that aren’t good enough to actually positive-ID faces.
>> OZWFF said…
>>
>> Tony Sciacca was driving the white PFWFD truck with the covered tray;
Agree. THAT is actually one detail from the M2U00264 video that can, in my opinion, be put to bed.
And once you look at the video and accept that aspect of it… matching the Poxy Blue Truck ( PBT ) to OPS2 Paul Musser becomes simpler.
Longer reply on that coming as well but the ‘short story’ there has to do with ‘headlight reflections’.
There are moments in that video, when Hulburd was occasionally panning EAST, that it APPEARS as if some ‘headlights’ are coming EAST on Shrine Road… and it’s easy to assume that might be the PBT coming in from the east with some other unknown white-helmet driving it.
That is NOT what’s happening there.
It’s an illusion.
It is the headlights of the 2 engines and Peeples Valley Water tender all reflecting off the BACKS of the vehicle in FRONT of them that make it APPEAR as if some headlights are coming FROM the east.
During that video… vehicles are only EXITING the area.
Nothing ever comes “in from the east”.
So forget the fact that some frame-by-frame enhancements DO show that the PBT driver had a black-strap on the front of his WHITE helmet ( just like Musser’s helmet ) and the same frame-by-frame enhancements DO appear to show the driver had a ‘grey mustache’. ( just like Musser’s )…
If no vehicles came in FROM the EAST during that video… that means the PBT had to be right there all along parked BEHIND Hulburd and his camera, and it means it’s the only vehicle that Paul Musser could have possibly used to leave the area.
More later.
Agreed! I also forgot to mention Musser stated in his interview with ADOSH that he “parked around the corner”. Which would also support why the PBT (hahahaaa!) isn’t visible.
OZWFF
Hello,
My posts keep ending up in moderation, so trying again.
First my sincere thanks to all who contribute on this thread, right from the beginning. I have read all of it.
September 2019 I had the honour to be able to hike the GMIHC Memorial Trail to the deployment site and spend some time with them. I also had the opportunity shortly afterwards to hike the South Canyon Memorial Trail and spend time with the Storm King Fallen 14 too.
I am piecing together in my mind all of the events of June 28-30 2013 with a view to learn from all of the factors involved as best I can. I do have a question for you guys which I hope you may be able to answer. It involves trying to identify a particular individual who seemed central to the SAR effort launched from the RHR.
He first appears in Tom Story photo 1678 with his back to the camera talking with (I believe) Trueheart Brown next to the BR Polaris. He is then seen walking towards and then standing in front of Darryl Willis’ Prescott Fire truck in Tom Story photos 1682-1887 with a good profile shot of him in 1685. He has grey hair and appears to have the big moustache and is wearing glasses. He is then in subsequent “huddle” photos with Willis where he is standing on the right edge of the huddle. Finally he appears to be the individual leaning on the open tailgate of the rear RHR Tom Story sequence of photos 1692-1702 which have a huddle of (I believe) Musser, Sciacca, Philbin and one other standing at the front. I believe that truck is also the one Musser was driving but I’m not 100% on that!
I don’t think he is any of the following people:
Todd Abel – he hasn’t arrived yet in this sequence, has he? But this guy does look a lot like him
Paul Musser – already identified
Gary Cordes – already departed RHR on his mission to “find” GMIHC when photo sequence begins
Roy Hall – was never there
Darrell Willis – not there initially and then arrives in his Prescott truck
Rance Marquez – doesn’t look like him (wrong colour shirt and was still wearing radio harness in RR video)
Tony Sciacca – already identified
Cougan Carrouthers – this guys looks too old
My thanks in advance and also my thanks for your dedication!
OZWFF
Reply to OZWFF post on November 1, 2020 at 2:38 pm
>> OZWFF said…
>>
>> I am piecing together in my mind all of the events of June 28-30 2013
>> with a view to learn from all of the factors involved as best I can.
>> I do have a question for you guys which I hope you may be able to
>> answer. It involves trying to identify a particular individual
>> who seemed central to the SAR effort launched from the RHR.
>>
>> He first appears in Tom Story photo 1678 with his back to the camera
>> talking with (I believe) Trueheart Brown next to the BR Polaris.
You’re talking about the ‘chunky’ guy with the big butt and the fairly clean, bright yellow/orange Nomex shirt, right?
Yes, he does appear to be talking with Blue Ridge Hotshot Trueheart Brown at the moment the photo was taken.
I believe that is Byron Kimball, the FBAN who was assigned to Yarnell that day.
Here is a PUBLIC photo of Kimball ( published by Arizona Forestry ) from about the knees up… showing body type as well as his FACE…
https://twitter.com/azstateforestry/status/1059097940155871233
Same ‘chunky’ appearance, same mustache, same face.
Byron Kimball’s testimony to ADOSH also matches his presence and the timeframe there at the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.
He describes how he had been ‘listening in’ on the conversations and the ‘huddles’ going on there at the RHR ( as the Tom Story photos show him doing ).
He even says he was “watching the guys talk to Brendan ( McDonough )” three or four times trying to figure out exactly where Granite Mountain might be, since the botched MAYDAY calls circa 4:39 PM from Jesse Steed, Robert Caldwell and Eric Marsh all failed to provide proper location information.
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = Byron Kimball, FBAN, Yarnell, June 30, 2013
—————————————————————————————-
1597 A: …Um, go down to Ranch House restaurant
1598 tie in with ah, Todd there and start to assist however I could there
1599 um, just basically being a, either a contact back to – back to the base…
1600
1601 Q1: Mm-hm.
1602
1603 A: As we’re there we get hit, I want to say four different times by – by a flame
1604 front as it comes into Glen Ilah and column lays over on top of us and I know
1605 I had to – I had to move my – I had to move my truck at least once from –
1606 from…
1607
1608 Q1: Is that right?
1609
1610 A: …sitting on the – sitting on the wrong side of the road to get it on the other side
1611 of the highway. And ah, um, watching the guys get – get – talk ta- to Brendan
1612 three or four times where was the last time you saw him…
1613
1614 Q1: Mm-hm.
1615
1616 A: …where was, you know, trying to get reference as to how they could get set up
1617 to go in…
1618
1619 Q1: Uh-huh.
1620
1621 A: …and – and get him. They had a – they had a rescue team completely set up…
1622
1623 Q1: They did know where they were at that point?
1624
1625 A: They – they didn’t know specifically where they were.
1626
1627 Q1: Uh-huh.
1628
1629 A: They had an idea in terms of where were they – where was the last time
1630 Brendan saw them…
1631
1632 Q1: Uh-huh.
1633
1634 A: And – and where was that on the map and ah, versus, you know, did he know
1635 where they were planning on going…
1636
1637 Q1: Did he know where they were planning on going?
1638
1639 A: I do – I do not know if he was aware of what they had planned to use as their
1640 access route…
1641
1642 Q1: Mm-hm.
1643
1644 A: …down from – from where they were.
1645
1646 Q1: Uh-huh.
1647
1648 A: Um, I at the time I didn’t realize that that’s who – that’s that who it was…
1649
1650 Q1: Right.
1651
1652 A: …or what his job was…
1653
1654 Q1: Sure.
1655
1656 A: …Ah, and I was looking with my – I had a couple of – of State employees there
1657 that were going to be involved in – going in part of the rescue um, could hear
1658 the – the DPS ship and air attack talking and trying to figure out where they
1659 were and get in.
1660
1661 Q1: Mm-hm.
—————————————————————————————–
>> OWFF also said…
>>
>> He is then seen walking towards and then standing in front of Darryl
>> Willis’ Prescott Fire truck in Tom Story photos 1682-1887 with a good
>> profile shot of him in 1685.
Yes.
In 1685, the guy with his right ‘hand on his hip’ standing in front of Darrell Willis’ red/white Prescott pickup truck which had just arrived at the RHR.
Another still-unidentified FF ( with the reddish helmet ) is leaning in the passenger side of Willis’ pickup and talking to Willis.
SIDENOTE: There are actually a number of FFs seen in the Tom Story RHR photo sets that have still not been identified.
>> OWFF also said..
>>
>> He has grey hair and appears to have the big moustache and is wearing
>> glasses. He is then in subsequent “huddle” photos with Willis where he
>> is standing on the right edge of the huddle.
Yes… such as Tom Story 1688, 1689, 1690, 1691
!691 catches him ( Kimball? ) looking back towards the camera as they all listen to the ‘gesturing’ Central Yavapai FF and, while slightly out-of-focus, is a good look at his full face.
Good enough that anyone who knows him at all should/would be able to easily identify him, and good enough to say the face SEEMS to match other public photos of Byron Kimball.
>> OWFF also said..
>>
>> Finally he appears to be the individual leaning on the open tailgate of
>> the rear RHR Tom Story sequence of photos 1692-1702…
Yes.
That appears to be where he ended up after the ‘huddles’ that took place in front of Willis’ pickup.
>> … which have a huddle of (I believe) Musser, Sciacca,
>> Philbin and one other standing at the front.
Left to right in that ‘huddle’…
– Black ball cap? Could be Brendan McDonough? That would match Kimball’s ADOSH testimony about “the guys talking to Brendan”.
– White Helmet – Musser?
– Tall guy with red helmet and black harness straps with back to camera is most likely Dan Philbin.
– White Helmet, shorter than other White Helmet. Could be Sciacca.
>> I believe that truck is also the one Musser was driving
>> but I’m not 100% on that!
No.. That white truck was not Musser’s.
Paul Musser was driving a dark-navy-blue pickup that day with a big ‘Arizona Forestry’ magnetic sign ( complete with Arizona flag background ) pasted on the side(s).
>> I don’t think he is any of the following people:
>>
>> Todd Abel – he hasn’t arrived yet in this sequence, has he?
No, he ( Abel ) had not arrived at the RHR yet.
>> OWFF also said..
>>
>> But this guy does look a lot like him
The guy in question is a lot ‘chunkier’ than Todd Abel and more of a match for Byron Kimball than Abel.
>> OWFF also said..
>>
>> Paul Musser – already identified
>> Gary Cordes – already departed RHR on his mission to
>> “find” GMIHC when photo sequence begins
>> Roy Hall – was never there
>> Darrell Willis – not there initially and then arrives in his Prescott truck
>> Rance Marquez – doesn’t look like him (wrong colour shirt and was
>> still wearing radio harness in RR video)
>> Tony Sciacca – already identified
>> Cougan Carrouthers – this guys looks too old
Definitely not any of those people. No ‘face match’ or ‘body type’ matches.
I’m just curious… where ( and when? ) in the RR ( Russ Reason ) video do you think
you are seeing DIVSZ Rance Marquez?
I didn’t know he ( Marquez ) was anywhere in that particular video.
Just for reference ( and for anyone who has not seen the photos being discussed in the post above )… here is a link to the folder in the public evidence Dropbox with all the Tom Story photos mentioned above…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACUc_jX8WNPOrznsNSlYV-ea/Photos%20and%20Video/Tom%20Story%20Photos/201303_Yarnell_Hill_02?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Here is an article about Arizona State Forestry employee Byron Kimball that appeared just 2 days ago in Arizona’s SW Valley Times…
SW Valley Times
Article Title: Byron Kimball earns $19,845 in overtime pay during 2018 at the Department of Forestry and Fire Management
Published: Sunday, November 8, 2020
https://swvalleytimes.com/stories/539110236-byron-kimball-earns-19-845-in-overtime-pay-during-2018-at-the-department-of-forestry-and-fire-management
From that article…
———————————————————————————–
Byron Kimball earned $19,845 in overtime pay working for the ( Arizona ) Department of Forestry and Fire Management during 2018, according to data compiled by The Arizona Republic about more than 150,000 public employees.
Byron Kimball earned an average of $382 per week from overtime pay.
The public employee who received the most in Arizona–Jeffrey C. Clement–earned $108,884 in overtime pay as the police sergeant for the city of Phoenix.
The 100 highest overtime paid Arizona public employees during 2018…
( snip )
List of 100 employees and their 2018 overtime earnings
( /snip )
———————————————————————————–
Dear WTKTT,
Many thanks for your comprehensive reply! I find it interesting it could be Byron Kimball and I agree there are similarities.also thinking it could actually be Gary Cordes and I’ll lay out my reasoning below.
First to your question about Rance Marquez in the RR video. I recall there was a lot of discussion about that video (mainly between you and Marti) back in the day. As part of that discussion I think one of you said Marquez is in the video at arouns the 1:38 mark stepping behind the Blue Ridge Hotshot and hiding when he sees the camera turned towards him. That persons appearance, clothing and radio harness matched your belief of what Marquez looked like. So I have taken that person to be him – my apologies if this view has subsequently changed and I missed it!
Onto the vehicle Paul Musser was driving that afternoon. I have obviously missed where you have come to the conclusion it was the blue Arizona pick up. The last I saw you discussing that vehicle it seemed you believed Cougan Carrouthers and/or Rance Marquez were operating it. I also believe Musser was driving a different vehicle. A white Prescott Fire Wildland Division Ford F-250 with a red stripe and a hard top on the load tray, a quad cab and grey wheels. Did he “requisition” it? Thought process below:
1. It is clearly parked at the ICP in the ADOSH ASFD Misc150050_919 photo. So Musser (as well as others) would have had access to it.
2. It is seen passing Panebaker on Hays heasding east in the 15572 video with what looks like it could be Musser driving it.
3. On to Hulberds video at the Shrine. When he pans down the street towards where his and the other Prescotteers vehicles are you can see that same truck parked there too. Musser is caught in that sequence and then watches it being moved by someone else up towards the entry to the youth camp with great interest. Finally, when they decide to evacuate everyone, as the camera pans back down the street you can see what looks to me like Musser running towards that same vehicle which then has disappeared from view in the next camera pass.
4. Finally in Tom Storys photos (1702 is a good example) you can see the same vehicle parked on the left edge in front of the RHR.
All that leads me to believe that was Mussers truck but I concede the blue Arizona one is also in the “right places at the right times” however this one seems to fit more unless you have something more substantial someone else was driving that truck in those timeframes!
Onto Cordes. My understanding of his timeline (photos/video, his award interview and his ADOSH interview) put him 2 miles north of Yarnell in his distinctive truck on HWY 89 at 1616. Your crossfade on Youtube puts him heading south on HWY 89 circa 1645 which would be after his “Norton Way evacuation”. I think this is a little late because if you examine the RR video you can actually see his truck parked in the background behind the white ones in that first camera pass looking south at 00:29 – I think this is when he is hearing about the deployment from E-59 and his truck is completely visible at the end of the RR video shot from a different angle.
All of this puts his truck at RHR before the “confirmed” time of the photo taken by Michelle Lee at 1645.
Now for the interesting bit. His truck is no longer there in the Michelle Lee 1648 photo. So is this when he took off to Glen Ilah for his “rescues”? I personally think there is a plausible alternate. He said himself he started these rescues arouns 1620 and never went back to Glen Ilah afterwards. Also the David Kadlubowski photo taken later shows his truck parked at the south end in front of the RHR next to the water tanker. So between 1645 and 1648 did he just move and park his truck in front of Mussers and then walk back to brief Frisby and Brown on the rescue mission? Their initial attempts being to break through in Glen Ilah?
Thanks again for your work and I would appreciate your thoughts on what I have come up with here!
OZWFF
Sorry,
Further thoughts regarding why I believe the blue pickup isn’t Mussers. In the Hulberd video at the Shrine, the evacuation has been ordered and Musser has already left (see above thoughts regarding him running to the white Ford). Musser is no longer present in this video except as possibly being the driver of the blue pickup.
This blue pick up then seems to arrive as it’s pointing towards the Youth Camp and the driver appears to ask Yowell if all the crews are out yet – not a question someone would ask Yowell if they had been standing next to him for the preceding 5 minutes or so as Musser was.
The voice of the driver also sounds different to Mussers when compared to his “it’s raining in Skull Valley” statement. Finally, even though the quality of the video is poor, the view of the driver as he turns the pickup around doesn’t seem to show Mussers striking moustache or the black band on the peak of his helmet.
I hope all that makes sense!
OZWFF
**
** AFTER MORE THAN A MONTH, THE ’72 HOUR’ INCIDENT REPORT
** REGARDING THE DEATH OF BIG BEAR HOTSHOT CHARLES MORTON
** HAS FINALLY BEEN MADE PUBLIC.
The San Bernadino Sun
Article Title: Agency says Big Bear Hotshots crew boss died when flames burned over him
Published: October 28, 2020 at 4:29 p.m – By: Brian Rokos
https://www.sbsun.com/2020/10/28/agency-says-big-bear-hotshots-crew-boss-died-when-flames-burned-over-him/amp/
From the article…
—————————————————————————-
The Big Bear Hotshots crew boss who died fighting the El Dorado fire in the San Bernardino Mountains was killed when flames overwhelmed him, the U.S. Forest Service said.
The information was contained in what is known as the “72 Hour Report” that is filed three days after a USFS fatality but is not immediately released publicly. It is posted on the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center website under the Incident Review Database.
Charles Edward Morton, 39, a firefighter for 18 years, died near Angelus Oaks.
“On September 17, 2020 while conducting suppression efforts, it appears he was burned over by the fire and passed away,” the report said.
It provided no further narrative of how the burn over happened.
Imani Lester, a Forest Service spokeswoman in Washington, D.C., said in a phone interview on Wednesday, Oct. 28, that no additional information was available. The investigation is being slowed by the COVID-19 pandemic, which she said is making it difficult for investigators to meet.
—————————————————————————-
The ‘word on the street’ is still that Morton was killed during a manual firing operation gone bad, and he got ‘trapped’ in a corner of the burnout.
The article also contains an ‘update’ from the San Bernadino County Sheriff’s Office regarding their search for missing Big Bear Hotshot Carlos Baltazar.
Looks like they have now simply given up looking for him.
Baltazar went missing on September 20, 2020, just days before the memorial service for his squad boss Charles Morton. Baltazar’s family said publicly that he was very distraught over Morton’s death, and even confided to them before he disappeared that “Maybe it was his fault.”
From the article…
———————————————————————————————————
Also Wednesday, the Sheriff’s Department said that missing Big Bear Hotshots crew member Carlos Baltazar has not been located. He was reported missing Sept. 20 while off duty and reportedly was upset by Morton’s death.
“He is not considered missing under any suspicious circumstances. There has never been any indication of foul play. No one has had contact with him,” sheriff’s spokeswoman Jodi Miller said in an email.
———————————————————————————————————
Followup…
The actual ( official ) ’72 Hour Report’ on Morton’s death is at the link below…
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
El Dorado Fire Fatality
Incident Date: 9/17/2020
State :California
Incident Type: Unknown
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=18cfb96c-caf4-43e1-81c3-0f8ab6349c10
And here is a direct link to the ’72 Hour Report’ PDF file itself…
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=60f7af2d-2760-c0ce-2c09-c9ea1b4117f9&forceDialog=0
Another indication that the San Bernadino County Sheriff’s Office is basically ‘giving up’ in their search for Big Bear Hotshot Carlos Baltazar is at the link below.
The family of Carlos Baltazar has now started their own public ‘GoFundMe’ campaign with the stated goal of raising enough money so the family can hire a private investigator to continue the search for Carlos.
Families don’t usually make that move until they are told by the authorities that they are basically ‘giving up’, or at least not willing to devote any more resources towards their own search efforts.
GoFundMe
Fundraiser Title: Help Bring Carlos Baltazar Home
Organizer: Veronica Baltazar
https://www.gofundme.com/f/missing-big-bear-hotshot-firefighter
As of today, this public campaign has raised $3,270 of its $35,000 goal.
Fred said,
You really are a piece of s**t Gary most of the time! Your latest arrogant pieces of work on IM proved that by attacking Joy especially and me, accusing us as being the problem and alluding to wildland fire arsonists. Are you f**king kidding me? WTF!?
Joy A. Collura has done more as a housewife hiker to collect and expose the truth about the YH Fire and GMHS debacle than anyone else in the world What have you provided?
And then your lapdog Woodsman immediately grovels right in there sucking up and supporting your libelous false accusations.
These were so unacceptable and vile that JD found it necessary to remove them so I can’t even refer back to them.
You are a royal, class A f**king bully with no respect for anyone but yourself and those that believe the way you do. Always have been …
I’d post this on IM but I’m still unable to post anything for some reason. I will eventually
I’m withdrawing my help on your book. I want to avoid any connection to you
And I replied,
I will go post it for you if I can. You are operating on bad information but my response to you just got accidentally deleted somehow and my IPad says my ICloud is full, whatever that means?
I really can’t face correcting you by re-writing my explanation again right now, but I will later. Or maybe I shouldn’t bother since you have already heard enough from Joy in order to make up your mind?
If those posts have been deleted, I know from HAL 9000 posting in the past that there is something called the Wayback machine where you might be able to recover them?
And since I officially quit working on my book yesterday after that episode with Joy, and took down my website, I don’t think I will miss your help on my book.
I also asked the Good Lord to strike me down dead if I ever posted on IM again after yesterday and so I am going to have some explaining to do since I am posting this. Maybe I can get a waiver…I’ll ask?
http://www…ourfiregods.com
To All,
Please be advised. This project has been suspended until I feel like working on it again because I am sick and tired of hearing about and thinking about the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and all of the other fire disasters as well. I need a new and healthier outlook on life and fortunately for me, I have all of the money and time I need to do anything I want to do. I have been interested in visiting Vientiane and the Plain of Jars for some time now since I have been reading about our secrete war in Laos. So…
Ciao
Oh…and one more thing. My posts were just replies to Joy posts, so I think it was Joy’s way out of line posts that JD took down and my replies just went with them. Let’s wait and see when she is able to post here again. Like I wrote…you are operating under bad information.
To All,
I deeply regret to have to inform you that even though I am only on Chapter 2 of my long awaited and highly acclaimed tome about wildland firefighters in general and hotshots in particular, “Betrayed by Our Fire Gods,” I am already experiencing serious mission creep because I believe that everything I think about the subject is just so damn important that I hate to leave anything out and so I am now one month behind. And as a result, Chapter 2 will be published on December 1, 2020. Thank you for your patience in this matter.
Sincerely yours,
Gary
Yes Gary–do take your time–the book that you are writing is of supreme importance and with your knowledge and those you know the book may require 700 pages or more to do it justice. The ideas you have and what goes on in the wild land fire fighting career is certain to inspire many, inform many and save some lives as well. Thanks for your honesty in all your posts-
-I am sorry I never got to know your father even though I had worked in the same Section 30, Kerr McGhee shaft that he worked. He deserved a hero’s medal since the earliest work was highly dangerous. Uranium mining in that area killed quite a number of miners–I don’t have the count but it was a war zone–some killed while I worked there and injuries were common. I believe he would have been a great boss and most that I had were good men that really cared about the miners just as you and so many that contribute to this site care about the wild land fire fighter.
It is a sad situation when firefighters are killed due to negligence and even worse when the issues are not faced head on. Skirting the truth only increases the likelihood of more of the same.
It really is hard to lay blame when this game of deceit and white wash goes clear up to the even those running for President. Main media is even working to hold down facts where one of the oldest newspapers around, the NY Post, is forbidden to post facts about the Biden crimes revealed by the left behind Hunter Biden laptop. It is obvious how the Biden family got rich through Joe being Vice President and in collusion with his son was able to solicit millions from corporate businesses including not only the Ukraine crime, but also China and people in Russia. Just as the 19 were killed and the truth has been throttled, so has the ongoing Biden enrichment crimes. You come to understand that these politicians use their kin to take the bribes and money from nefarious dealings and set much of it aside in accounts that are family–kind of like the Mafia does things to hide and launder money through shell companies.
Well there are now more sources and a couple fellows that went to prison while Hunter did not as a player in their money games. Hell he has pictures of himself smoking crack which would send a poor bloke to prison alone but a Russian Lady forking over 3.2 million, getting 83 grand a month on the Ukraine game, and more millions from the Chinese to a crack smoker that has with Joe Biden been making deals–yet even the FBI has known about this since December of 2019 and not made a move. But that Trump has the goods on them I wonder if the public would actually vote for such an organized Crime Family as the Biden group. Even the Aunts and Uncles were drawing on monies set aside with their plastic cards. Yet you now understand why Harris is the chosen golden girl–you have to know there is plenty of collusion involved on her part–especially with her husband in bed with the Chinese to the tune of millions more. More golden toilet seats, but I wonder how long and whether some will be in 12×12 grey cells with stainless steel toilets with not seats at all. They do deserve them, but likely like Epstein was treated in Florida, they will be treated quite well with days off and a nice bunk and big TV at night.
If nothing else, it is quite entertaining–yet has over time been disastrous for this country. The greed and insider cronyism has pretty much screwed the working stiff and middle classes giving them the burden of taxes and kept the young in harms way with continuous wars. Obvious that Pompeo is demonizing China, Russia, Iran and Venezuela at every opportunity. Putting the 7th fleet into the China seas now and arming Taiwan and so many war ships there that a China war is in the making and what the war industry is pushing for. This one with China may not be so easy and could easily turn into a nuclear ordeal.
Trump ought to back off with the bullshit on this one. China has 1.39 billion and could afford to loose our total population of 303 million and still have a population of over 1 Billion. Then you have Russia with enough nukes to decimate the world 40 times over or more–so that million dollar Georgia Guidestone of the Rosicrucian idea might just be the albatross signaling what might just soon be the world population.
But by some slime chance this hopefully will not come about–yet Murphy’s Law says it will.
Slaente
Slim chance of no war not slime chance. The slime is in our political offices.
Thank you Sonny.
And yes, I have given up on politics myself. I was never interested in politics before a couple of years ago and now I have gone back to being apolitical. It’s not my dogfight.
Dear Joy,
My 22 years working in federal law enforcement, about 2 years working for a sheriff’s department, the Arizona State Peace Officers Academy, a Bachelor of Science in Police Administrations, Uniformed Police Officers Training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center as well as Criminal Investigators Training Program in addition to 22 1 week in-service training sessions plus more than 2 dozen advanced specialized training seminars told taught me what I know.
And all of that taught me a basic investigator’s skill, mentally ill people who commit mayhem of all kinds including murders, but arsonists are especially prone to do this, often show up at the scene of their crimes while those crimes are being investigated to insert themselves into the situation or investigation because they get off being close to the mayhem they caused.
Weird, freaky, crazy people just show up out of nowhere and do all kinds of things to be noticed and one way they do this is engage law enforcement or fire people on the scene in what appear to be random and innocent conversations while they pretend to be helpful.
These same mentally ill people also go to the funerals of their victims for example, and that is why law enforcement will video record funerals and public viewings and record license plate numbers of those who attend. Those same people also often call up to the authorities as witnesses trying to be helpful in order to play a game while they try to find out how much law enforcement knows or they just show up at random times and engage victims, families and others in seemingly random, innocent or helpful conversations because you know…they get off on it because they are fuckin’ crazy.
In short Joy, CRAZY and MENTALLY ILL people often do exactly what you did the other day and that is why that deputy took down your contact information. It was just in case the USFS Special Agents who are investigating that fire want to open a file on you. You’re welcome.
You know Joy, people who think I’m smart and like it when I tell it like it is, can’t just like me when I say or do things that align with what they think or want to hear. Well…I guess they can, but that means they are being disingenuous to themselves and me.
And guess what…I’m not a nice person and I’m not here to add to my Christmas card list. The American people never paid me to be a nice person. They paid me to do the hard things that they couldn’t do or didn’t want to do themselves and I don’t give a fuck if you or anyone else likes me or approves of me or not. You’re welcome. I also think you might be more than just a little Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY, but that is just one of the things that I love about you. 😎
Joy,
I agree with you that the system is broken in many areas. I understand why you are doing what you’re doing. I disagree with threatening to identify people who work in the system, namely me, who have come here anonymously to help give context, answer questions, and vent their frustrations along side regular folks who believe something is wrong when we lose almost an entire hotshot crew on a wildfire. Threatening to expose people, for no reason other than you can, doesn’t make them want to help you. This is one of the reasons I essentially do not contribute here any longer. The other being I don’t have any other thoughts on why GM got themselves killed.
Joy,
Oh…and one more thing. You and Fred with your implied threats really should get one thing straight, “slander” is the spoken word and “libel” is the written word. So…
Dear Joy,
I just read what you wrote to the Woodsman and I am having a hard time processing the threat you made to him. Where did that come from? His comment to you couldn’t have been more benign towards you since he was just trying to help you to understand that I was just trying to be helpful to you until you pissed me off with your implied threats.
As you know, there have been long standing associations here on this thread of like minded people and one AI. HAL 9000 usually processes information the same way I think about it as does the Woodsman and I. Not on all things all of the time, but on most. And likewise, the other longstanding “team” here was Bob and Fred until Bob left and then you and Fred became a team, usually against me because you and Fred usually think differently than I do about most subjects.
I really was just trying to help you understand that showing up at the temporary workplace of Abel et al and haranguing his temporary supervisor couldn’t have been more out of line. If you want to talk about legal exposure for slander and libel, you need to go see Fred’s attorneys that he keeps on retainer to get some legal advice about what you did and are continuing to do.
You have moved beyond the theoretical by your accusations against them here on this thread that has a readership of a couple of dozen hard core readers into the real world and your behavior is continuing to escalate. And I’m afraid of what you are going to do next to yourself because you have moved into “legal restraint” territory with the entire Yavapai County Fire Cosa Nostra if not something more damaging to youself legally.
What are you going to do to top showing up at a checkpoint and making wild accusations against Abel et al? That IC doesn’t have any control over who they send him to fight that fire except in the most extreme cases. He is just a little cog in a gigantic machine like everyone else is, and that includes those at the top like Legarza was. He is just doing like everybody does who is part of the system and that is play the hand that he gets dealt as best he can. Are you going to show up on the fire line next and start directing wildland firefighters who are just trying to put the fire out?
I really would like to help you as I have for years. You have written many times about his lucky I am to have my pension and how much you wish you had one too. I get that from a lot of people who find out about my situation. Do you know how I got here? I started out in 1974 and then until May of 2006 I never turned down an hour of overtime or an opportunity to put myself into the next level where I had to eat bigger and bigger shit sandwiches with less bread and more shit every time I took the next step. And I had to eat those shit sandwiches while jumping through every hoop the system put in front of me like a trained dog until they told me to stop.
We all have choices in life and you have made some bad ones. I wish I could help you, I really do. Unfortunately you are beyond my help but you should at least talk to Fred or better yet, Sonny and LISTEN to them instead of talking over them as you are inclined to do before you go any further off the rails. I wish I could help you, but I can’t and this thread is no longer entertaining or helpful to my understanding how in this day and age an entire hotshot crew was destroyed.
I am also going to have to put a lot of thought into whether or not I even want to continue writing on my stupid book since I am sick and tired of all of this nonsense. Yes…when I get poked in the eye with a sharp stick, I react the only way I know how and that is the same way that kept me in the game from 1974 until 2006. I made my choices in life and you are making yours. You really should take a long hard look at where you are at with your health and mentally and start making some better ones.
Sincerely your friend,
Gary
Oh…and one more thing.
http://ourfiregods.com/
The blog I began with contributing authors has been under construction this year
Mainly because I am not a blog person and take the time to mend it
I had been placing data out while other WFs and FFs and Yarnell Homeowners got to also share along with others their accounts.
The recent passing of Dewey mattered to me. I was gonna make my next post “Dewey Matter?” and talk about what happened on this trip…
I was in Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, North Carolina the past nine days to gain in person YHF data and little r and r too.
In the past two weeks, I learned a new entity who was on the YHF and I am about to pull those records. What was interesting was in this one was how a young nephew spoke about the shelter pics and I was like the purity of our youth- thank you- because we will see how honest the adults will be as I pull another record. If this pans out, I think Pfingston and Neill and Sinclair will be relieved to see what just happened—
I personally will not add Harwood to the loop above because I am not into him being tied to Pfingston and all this they knew about the GPS Units and never took it further all these years when it is all these lives that died.
What has happened…
It was a God moment.
Now, I am not a part of the blog. I was adding records this Summer 2020. I am not even able to log in because I placed it under another’s number to log in and I am not privy to it. Yet, I gave the reign to others so I can listen to Gary and tend to my health. If it comes down to where I am fully out on the blog I will do a legal paper transition but right now it belongs to others and I am not able to even get on-
Yes it is amazing how so much evidence about the YHF is still being found out by Joy’s efforts. These are people that were on the fire yet because the SAIT and SAIR people had their story lined up they did not need or want any evidence. Accidents that kill people don’t need evidence to their way of thinking. They knew what to say to keep the boat steady.
It is in vogue to lie these days. Biden got caught –and even with his degree of senility he can not forget his son was getting 80 thousand a month to be on the board of a crooked corporation that needed to access VP Biden. Hunter Biden, being a cocaine addict got careless and did not bother to retrieve a laptop he left to get repaired but either forgot or with his money bought another while he was off on one of his many trips–looks like about 50 with the Secret Service along to different countries. I would imagine those were on tax payer dollars and military planes and escort.
But Biden’s angry denial when asked if he met with these crooks and if he had anything to do with holding back the billion in aid if the Ukraine government did not fire the prosecutor after the company of crooks that Hunter was sucking 80 grand a month off of for favor from Joe. Well he can’t deny now the left behind hard drive proves they did meet after Hunter arranged with his Dad–and who knows what else they got in off VP Joe if they could afford to pay Hunter 80 grand a month just to get favor from the VP Joe. The prosecutor was fired so Ukraine could get the billion, but what kind of chicanery will this Joe Biden do if he becomes President. Maybe even worse than Trump.
And main media would you believe is doing everything to disparage NY Post and the story that even has photos Hunter took of himself with a crack pipe along with sexually explicit photos he left behind. The dope makes people careless.
Twitter and Google and so forth are censoring anything about the story but it will come out despite their hopes to get Biden into office.
oh and I want people to know the Type I Engine mentioned – the lease from Wickenburg for my town in Congress – Chief stated something but my pc locked up and I have to get some eyewitness testimonies
This Fire will be a shining example of pure documents from the start—
Federal Land with State on it too-
Just helping another out 😉
I have more to tell but too short on time and pc bandwidth is just way too slow so I utilized my time online to document and save.
That Fire is ripping up ground today. It would give Gary a hard on. 🙂 lol. Never seen anything like it in October.
That area you are talking about NW of Crown King is one of the most dangerous for fighting fires–not much access there and that narrow road in and out is lined on all sides with some of the densest manzanita found. And easy trap for sure and as long as it can be contained in the manaznita it ought to be allowed to burn. I hope they learned a lesson from the Yarnell Fire–those fire blankets in that area would be absolutely useless–When in that area prospecting I was always concerned of a wildfire that could trap you with no way out–there were almost no escape routes if it is the area I am thinking about.
Fires everywhere–are these drone induced. I watched people use a drone with a torch to remotely burn off some debris from a high voltage power line that had potential to cause trouble. They were watching it work on their camera and I see now they do not need men in there laying out burns, drone technology works for fire starting just as well as it works to knock off people thousands of miles away.
I see Bloomberg is contributing 100 million to the Biden campaign–that after he spent 2 Billion on his own failed effort to become President. The Biden crime family is being found out now with much publication about his chicanery with his son concerning the Ukraine. These fellows have been robbing the taxpayer for 40 years with various under the table operations to make themselves filthy rich.
Meantime the common hard worker that has supported these criminal politicians is being put out on the street and some are even tying themselves to their apartment doors hoping to get some reprieve from being evicted. People are suffering while these bastards can spend 100 million and billions on their effort to be one of the crooks in control of the country. This is the shame of the nation that this money is not distributed among those now in dire need–after all these billionaires got there by skirting the taxes that these hard working citizens had paid. It is no wonder people are angry and waking up to see how they have been used and robbed of not only their freedoms but their jobs, health care, and bank accounts.
Then you see this Harris woman saying we have made it so hard on crime that we just fell short of hanging people for jaywalking. How much has she jaywalked and how much has her husband raked in with his partnership with the Chinese communist owned businesses. It is no wonder that she is cohorting with the Biden Crime Family. They all know the game of how to use the taxpayer and take bribes –then lay out big loans of tax monies with kickbacks in the million ranges. How else can Biden explain his millions and a crack smoking son that gets 80 grand a month from a Ukranian crooked business. Daddy gets half the take but 40 or 50 grand a month ought to keep his son in dope since most of the plane rides were on the tax payer.
Trump is beginning to look to be somewhat of an minor criminal aside the Biden group. Go listen to Juliani- his laptop hard drive of Hunter Biden and report–he has the goods on Biden. I suppose I can only scratch my head why anyone would bother to vote–this is my opinion–but especially when there are a few honest people out there that want to be President. Telsie Gabbard is not slouch or crook nor is Jesse Ventura–both above ground and wanting to work for the people. Even Joy Collura would make a good President compared to that bunch of rogues running the White House. In fact she ought to run for representative or mayor of Prescott just to give the crooks some problems.
Saliente and may the Irish Gods preserve or your Jesus, Allah, etc. if you prefer in this coming time of tribulation.
A big head scratching event –this process of electing a President. People are standing in line risking Covid they say because they want their voice to be heard. They want their particular brand of Liar in power? How soon they forgot that Trump actually lost the last election by above 3 million votes. Popular votes do not count and likely a good thing since you would have the blood thirsty war criminals in the Clinton group in charge. But don’t hold your breath thinking your vote has anything to do with electing the President–it is only there to make you think you have some say–you don’t and that is obvious when one side can win the popular vote by better than 3 million yet loose the election. The boys and girls that run the show have it down pat how to pacify the public = or do they?
I wish someone could convince me these are good honest and decent people running for President–It might be hard to do if you look at what they do –but you can not do that. Just about every action, meeting, etc. is classified–Jesse Ventura tells it like it is and says very few documents are unclassified and it is only a journalist like Assange or a person with conscience leaking the truth of all the criminal activity going on under the guise of national security classification.
Well Hunter Biden and his crack cocaine use and careless leaving behind the truth of our government operations and deception on the highest levels. But I do say if it makes you feel better voting have at it. I will wait until a decent candidate runs–which having been on my death bed more than once, well even twice, little chance. But I do believe not even my grand kids will see the opportunity to vote for and honest candidate not owned by the billionaires that care only about themselves or the influence they easily buy in the political world. It will take a total revolution and removal of the corporate oligarchy control to get the country back to the control of the people. Yet at this point they have pretty much moved the jobs out of this country to where labor is cheap–so flipping burgers or cleaning motels or working for the china shop at Wal Mart are the job opportunities beyond government work or being a cop or a military person or if you don’t mind joining the Political criminal group and go high enough you can get wealthy at the cost of your integrity. And about Wal Mart–most of that stuff is American subsidized products sent back from China.
And the Commies have done well for their people with the likes of all our Corporate enterprises raising the standard of living for the Chinese by moving our corporations over there. We enjoy the cheap goods but then whole towns like Detroit and other industrial cities have become slum towns due to the lack of jobs. So yes the Corporate Oligarchs give a shit less about the people of this country–and as their front man Biden says to the soldiers he address you are stupid. In other words you do not know the way to get rich and powerful like he has–except the rich often fight among themselves and Trump is really exposing the Biden-Obama-Clinton gang for who they really are.
Well fortunately they would not bother with a low life like Sonny Gilligan or any other veteran low on the totem unless it made them have a good public face. Smile Biden, you have been caught by your own devices same as Clinton–evil is too often uncovered these days.
Then it is in the timber? There are some areas nothing but dense manzanita, then the higher areas where the timber and some residences are. Very dry and hot at times, and real danger to get caught in there for those that have no experience on the range.
Juliani is Guiliani of NY–Trumps friend and lawyer really laying it on–truly Biden is a criminal of high order if this proves to be true–this is one the FBI is so far hushed on but ought to clean up a crime family–that laptop can’t be faked since it is full of photos and information only known by the Biden family.
Main media thinks Biden will win with a landslide–don’t people recognize this man is already in the early stage of senility? Already many doctors and Psychiatrists have made the diagnosis but you don’t have to be one to see that man often does not know where he is and says things way off base for a cookie cutter soul.
You ought to pity him but not vote for such a case notwithstanding his already criminal acts that his son’s laptop reveals. What has this country come to when mental cases and criminals have taken the reins?
Hopefully the FBI arrests him if he does make it to the Presidency. They are after all considered to be a non political operation although it seems they knew Trump was being set up by Hillary on the Russia thing and did nothing.
This is damn sad to live in a country with so much corruption and collusion among the people who are suppose to represent the people yet are doing everything to fill their own pockets and please the war crimes operations for the kickbacks they obviously get–even in the open by political contributions and with some even found out with hundreds of thousands hidden in such places as their home freezers.
The people and the tax payer are being robbed and the generations to come expected to pay a deficit produced by these bail outs and money heists to no end–in fact approaching a figure in the trillions beyond 30 that will make serfs of future generations beyond sight.
Seriously we are at the point of total bankruptcy and a state of collapse that is worse than the 30’s depression that took a good 10 years to come out of. It seems to me to have been planned by the billion and trillionair world corporate leaders and bankers and Insurance brokers who by now have pretty much collected all the wealth and control they could muster. Most of the middle and poor will be in soup lines having lost all they gained in property or savings.
Note that the big players in the stock market are moving into gold and hard assets.– Should tell you to get ready for some hard times.
And do not think that these billionaires on the world control levers have compunction for human lives. They see this world as highly overcrowded, their own lives as sacred and valuable, but those mainly of the world as eaters and polluters. The Georgia Guide Stones tell exactly what they would like the world to be and what they believe is the only optimum population to allow the planet to survive–500 million, which means to their way of thinking 6 Billion eaters and polluters need to be exterminated one way or another.
And he who has the gold makes the rules and owns and controls the Military and Police. How the plan will be carried out is being worked out and in operation with the tentative date at 2030 and the ultimate date 2050. Hang on Sloopy, Hang on!
May the Irish Gods do you well–Thor is releasing his hammer.
I did cancel my invitation to get the free Pfizer shot to protect against Covid. There are some old folks kicking off after getting the shot–Pfizer sent condolonces–but said they people that died were elderly with other complications that killed them–not the vaccine. Most have died immediately within hours but one lasted five days. Well as the doctor says, you have to weigh the benefits against the side effects and seems like you better check yourself to see if you have other complications before taking the shot.
My daughter dealt as a manager in this business of medicines–she says there are two varieties of vaccines–one company has an active virus component and the other I suppose Moderna has a fully synthetic vaccine. But who is to know–this vaccine might be a life saver for some but since I have too many complications like several past heart attacts, a lung shot out and COPD in the early stages not to mention radioactive bones from mining Uranium-maybe I ought to refuse the shot. But then I won’t be able to fly–it will be the slow boat should I want to visit my relatives in Ireland. But then who knows, you might not be able to get into Wal Mart if you don’t have a certificate.
Well this old gal that runs NM has the police keeping the people in line outside Wal Mart even in cold winds. There is a higher chance of getting Covid there since the wind will carry it to the fellow downwind from you in that line and the cold is bound to give some a good case of the flu. Where is her common sense? You can bet as governor she does not stand in line-
You fellows that suffered plenty of toxic retardant and smoke fumes could have side complications. It was only a few months after the Yarnell Fire and over a hundred hikes through that retardant dust that I fell dead with a heart attack. I blame the retardant–but then I did not until I noticed residents of Yarnell were getting ill and dying like flies. Whew, Joy has some ugly photos of resident diseases that will turn your stomach –there are plenty of reports of people suffering lung problems, heart attacks and cancer. In fact the photo she has of this particular person is a man who is a health advocate for years doing only organic foods. We both knew him before the retardant dumping and he got it right in his back yard. Now he is highly disfigured from cancer–figure that one out knowing he was in the best of health before the retardant dumps. I will not name him because of privacy issues but there is another statistic–just like so many of out other friends that are either dead or deathly ill.
And if you think this shit is not dangerous just sprinkle a few grains into your bowlfish bowl. Well don’t because they will go belly up in a few minutes.
I am writing this because I want it known what you wild land fire fighters are subjected too–the public needs to know that your life is not only endangered in your work but your health and life will be shortened as well. If truth were known the retardant chemicals are every bit as bad, even worse than the exposure was at Chernobly–there it was something like 200 deaths out of 50,000 residents exposed–of course some right away died like the fish do from retardant–but the 200 or 240 that they admitted to did not amount to a third of the town of 50 thousand. And some were dying at Yarnell very soon–within weeks of the retardant dumping as I remember–in fact some Joy could name that we stayed the week in the gymnasium at Prescott Yavapai College thanks to the college and eating Red Cross meals until we were allowed to go back to the residences.
So yes, Yarnell should have been abandoned just as Chernobyl was after the town was laden with poison retardant. But it is a silent killer and those spreading it are not about to abandon their billions in profits world wide–only good reports will be considered as the Marlboro Man rides off into the Sunset–never to return.
Dear Joy,
I’m going to write two words to you and then I want you to incorporate them into your everyday life. Ready? Okay…here we go. Stop it. S-T-O-P, new word, I-T!
I’m not exactly sure where the line is myself (obviously), but I’m pretty sure that you have finally crossed it. So…stop it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fKWxNBtp-o
I will be sending you my life coach bill in the mail. Thank you for your attention in this matter.
Gary
Oh…and one more thing. The total amount due for my life coach bill will be one dollar ($1.00 U.S.) because I charge one dollar per minute.
It didn’t take me the entire minute to diagnose your problem and determine the appropriate remedial therapy, but I rounded up. So…
Yeah, I figured that’s what you would say, more or less, but I had to try.
Never Give Uo…Never Surrender!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ2hJezvd2I
Joy,
I hate to be the one to break this news to you because I lack the appropriate nouns and adjectives to adequately describe how impressed I am with the amazing advances you have made and accomplishments you have achieved not only as an entry level firefighter but an advanced level fire weather forecaster. And even a theoretical fire behavior analyst in such a short amount of time, especially with the limited resources you have had at your disposal.
It is obvious that you have been not only tutored by one of the best (Fred), but you have been taught by many of the very best which I know includes Fred and many others. You also must have an intelligence quotient that is close to being off the chart to pick up on all of that nonsense so quickly. There…how was that for an opener? Unfortunately…openers like that are often followed by a “but” and here’s yours.
But…most wildland firefighters don’t fight fire using that all of that mumbo jumbo. Don’t get me wrong, I really admire all of those who can not only speak, but apply geekese to their everyday lives. My former father-in-law, former in the sense that he is not only dead, but now that my dear X-wife and I are divorced, he wouldn’t even be my father-in-law if he were still alive.
Anyway, he was an electrical engineer who worked for decades as a private contractor since he lacked the ability to conform to the demands of regular employment for the U.S. Navy and various defense contractors on projects like submarine launched middle systems. He was really smart and he was so convinced of his own superiority in every way (he was born and bred a hardcore Texan to boot, no pun intended) that he always believed that he was the smartest man in the room no matter which room he was in, or who else was in that room with him.
But the truth is, I have never met a man who was more ridiculous in how he lived his life, the choices he made and the things he said outside of his highly specialized chosen field of endeavor. But please forgive me, because I digress once again. Especially because this story isn’t even applicable to the point I am trying to make because he was so fuckin’ dumb when it came time to make the rubber meet the road, that I didn’t even have any respect for him.
But I do respect Fred and the other geeks, eggheads, pencil necks and goof balls who have been teaching you because they really know what they are talking about and I know most, if not all of them have faced down the fiery 🔥 dragons 🐉 on the fire line just as I have. And many of them have done so far more than I have. But…
I also hate to get all, “old school wildland firefighter” on you, but I think it’s important for you and other readers here to know there are two sides to the narrative that you are telling and was presented in that dumb-ass movie about hotshots. The one that told the story of the how the worst hotshot crew boss in history killed almost his entire crew except for Sad Sack. But the truth is, I carried a Belt Weather Kit for seven years as a hotshot crew boss and never used it once. I didn’t need the charts in that kit, a fire weather forecaster, a fire behavior specialist or even a meteorologist to tell me what the fire was going to do since I relied on my own senses which included my common sense, to tell me everything I needed to know about fightin’ that particular wildfire.
A competent wildland firefighter can feel, see, hear, taste, and touch the dryness of the fuels and the air, the weather such as the wind and the approach of thunder cells, the type, quantity and arrangement of the available fuels, the surrounding topography which includes the steepness and the aspect of the mountain slopes, drainages and canyons. The humane body’s nine senses are: Vision, Hearing, Smell, Taste, Touch, Balance, Proprioception (body awareness) and Temperature and a good wildland firefighter uses all of them all of the time to have complete situational awareness.
I wasn’t a good wildland firefighter all of the time, but when I made mistakes, I always tried not to make the same ones again and there wasn’t anything anyone could tell me that could prevent me from making those mistakes on my own. I had to make them, learn from them, and then vow to do my best not to make them again. And of course, that’s what experience is all about and no one is born a good wildland firefighter or anything else since everything is learned behavior.
So…to make a long story even longer, that bitch (non gender specific) of a wildfire will tell you everything you need to know about how to get mentally prepared for what you are about to face as you drive, hike or fly towards it and what kind of battle you are about to fight. A guy that I worked with for years in LE who had served in Vietnam (there were a lot of guys that I worked with for years in both fire and LE who served in Vietnam because I was always young for my age and so I feel like that was my war even though I was to young to serve in it) as a Marine told me once that the longer the Jolly Greens they were flying in circled, the worse he knew the battle they were about to fight was going to be.
And likewise, if the smoke (regardless of the quantity of it) is white and going straight up that you are heading towards, it’s going to be an easier battle to fight than if the smoke is black and laying over…end of story. And if the smoke is various shades of grey and is somewhere between going straight up and laying over, well, that’s where experience comes in handy once again.
And as I have written many times, the greatest tool a wildland firefighter has at their disposal is their brain because they can plan ahead and modify their actions accordingly. Whereas a wildfire has to follow all of the laws of nature and physics all of of the time and so it can’t plan ahead or modify it’s behavior. And although I always liked to have a good written plan in my hands once the fire team had wrested control the wildfire from Chaos so I knew where I was supposed to be and what strategy I was supposed to follow in general terms, I didn’t need anybody to dictate the tactics that I utilized and I never remember a fire line overhead even trying to do so.
And once again, I don’t begrudge any of the subject matter experts I previously mentioned their role in the overall wildland firefighting effort, I just think the practical application of their expertise is best suited for research to further study and understand fire behavior and in the classrooms where wildland firefighters are taught. I just didn’t like it when they droned on and on in briefings because I had things to do in order to get my crew ready to go fight fire the old school way and time was ah-wasting since the fire waited for no man and there were either deuce and a half’s or helicopters fired up and ready to carry us to our destinies.
I can also tell you one thing that is critical that local subject matter experts should communicate to wildland firefighters who aren’t from that geographic area and that is the localized fire conditions, weather and fuels because those things aren’t always consistent or universal. And based on my experience back in the day and study as a student of fire here on this thread, that has always been one of the biggest failure of the system that I identified over the past seven years. And it wasn’t something that I was even aware of enough back in the day to ask about and so I understand why the failure occurs, but I definitely think it is something the system should fix immediately if not sooner.
The best example of this phenomenon are the Santa Ana winds in California which will make fires burn downhill just as fast as they will burn uphill everywhere else. And if wildland firefighters from somewhere else aren’t up to speed on that localized fire weather condition, you could potentially face the same devastating consequences as we experienced when no one told us that frost killed Gamble oak can carry a wildfire so fast that it can run down and kill adult mule deer on the Battlement Creek Fire. I also seriously doubt anyone told the squad of nine Prineville Hotshots who were burned to death on the South Canyon Fire about the danger of the so called Fuel Type X that killed them either.
Maybe Eric Marsh knew that the primary fuel type that burned his crew to death was nicknamed “Gasoline On a Stick?” But I didn’t learn about that fact until my participation here on this thread over the last seven years. And as you probably know by now, I started on the Prescott National Forest and worked for six years as a hotshot on a forest only about 100 miles from where the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster occurred. I knew in general that dry chaparral was dangerous to fight fire in, especially because there is usually so much of it, but I didn’t know what that old cowboy told Sonny and Joy about how specifically dangerous Manzanita is. So maybe Marsh didn’t know that either? I would bet you anything most of his crew didn’t know that. If I had been doing the investigation of their deaths, that’s just one of the many questions I would have been asking former crew members.
Oh…and one more thing. I forgot “brainiacs” in the above list of nouns to describe those who take that nonsense seriously. Brainiacs is an important one because it is clearly not a pejorative, whereas some of the others could be construed as negative and lacking in respect, which is clearly not what I intended to convey in my post. So…
Clarification,
I should have written that I had to get myself ready to go on the line because while I was at the briefings, the squad bosses and the senior crewman like the equipment manager, swampers and sawyers where getting themselves and the crew supplied and provisioned with everything they needed to be good to go and so all I had to do was take a dump, the importance of which can’t be understated in order to be ready for the long hike either up, or down or around the steep mountain or canyon that always awaited us.
And Joy…I definitely consider you and Fred to be in the brainiac category. So…
You have come far pilgrim. I just wish I had a time machine to send you back about 30 years. I wouldn’t go with you though because I don’t want to go to the Hog Fire again.
And most people who have been reading my posts for seven years knows that a lot of what I wrote in the post above was done tongue-in-cheek.
But in all seriousness, I think for the most part fire behavior analysts and fire weather forecasters types provide the kind of information that you would need to fight fire with a scalpel, but based on my experience, fightin’ fire was most often done using a chainsaw because scalpels were to precise to get the job efficiently and effectively done in a timely manner that was dictated by the circumstances of the fire.
Now, that isn’t always true because telling you when to expect a thunder cell is really important even though you can see those coming, but probably not in time to do some of the planning and preparation that you might otherwise do if you had advanced warning prior to your shift starting fir example.
And the work of the people who I jokingly derided above has been critical in understanding fire behavior much better and coming as far as the industry has since the Dark Ages of the Loop Fire Disaster that burned 12 El Cariso Hotshots to death and the Age of Enlightenment during which 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots were burned to death on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
So…what the hell happened?
I guess the point I’m trying to make is that I think those particular disciplines, which are really more of an art (especially fire behavior analysis) than a science even though the bedrock foundation for them is higher level mathematics 🧮 that I could never wrap my head around, are great for forecasting the big macro picture from the 30,000 foot level and providing critical information to those who are running the fire and making the appropriate plans in order to decide how many and what kinds of resources are not only going to be needed that day, but maybe a week later. But that data is less important to those who are cutting fire line and then burning it out, backfiring it, or both at the micro level where I always operated at because I was you know…a grunt and damn proud of it. Or in deciding what kind of training is going to be needed by whom and so on and so forth.
That kind of information is not also very useful, but critical to those who are managing the fire program at the local, regional and national levels when doing budgets since those are typically done in five year (or longer) cycles when deciding when and what kind to bring resources on-line and when to lay them off. And when doing things like moving the appropriate resources into “move up” or standby status by pre-positioning them for example from the east to the west, or the north to south or vice versa.
I just didn’t want it all to go on to long in shift briefings to interfere with my morning preparations to go on the fire line whether that was at zero dark thirty or late in the afternoon if my crew had been assigned to pull the night shift.
Oh…and one more thing Joy, I don’t even know enough about fire weather forecasting to understand why the Eric Marsh character in that dumb ass movie knew the fire was going to do a 180 and so he wanted to initiate a burn out of the drainage below from “slingin’ the weather” and reading that little chart? Although maybe I shouldn’t admit that that part of that dumb ass movie went right over my head? So…maybe you can explain that one to me?
Did that little chart tell him a thunder cell was coming in because falling atmospheric pressure does mean worsening weather? But I know that much from watching so much TV in retirement and not because I used to fight fire.
If that’s true, the National Weather Service had already given everyone that heads up. I had to read the entire fire weather forecast from the National Weather Service over the forest net radio every morning when I was working in the dispatch office and it was my day in the barrel.
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And so on and so forth ad naseum.
Oh…and one more thing. I remembered the main reason why I think fire behavior analysts and even fire weather forecasters along with their work should be takes with a grain of salt.
If you think about it, a prescribed burn is a laboratory of sorts. The work that goes into planning one would impress those of you who are outside of the system.
And the final decision to “go or not go” is based entirely on science provided by fire behavior analysts and fire weather forecasters.
If their science could be relied on to base your decisions on the line where you cross the line between the theoretical world into the real world and put your crews lives at risk, there wouldn’t be such a high failure rate where prescribed burns turn into catastrophic nightmares that have claimed their share of wildland firefighters lives, citizens lives, not to mention billions (hundreds of billions) of dollars worth of lost resources, people’s homes and businesses.
And once again, I’m not saying those aren’t critical areas of study, especially fire weather forecasting, but the point I was trying to make is that I didn’t think there was any value to Joy (bless her heart) standing their and reciting the stats to that IC not to mention giving her opinion of the active resources on the fire.
Joy, no one has been convicted of anything for what happened on the YHF Disaster and I don’t think you should be stalking those men and trying to ruin their lives based on available information. If you know more than that, tell someone who is authorized to receive that kind of information and not harangue an IC trying to put the damn fire out. He isn’t in charge of the system. He can’t remove someone from a fire based on what you say on the side of the road.
And you probably already know this, but you are now under investigation for setting that fire. That’s not a place anyone should want to be because you will now be under investigation for starting the next one too. Why set yourself up for any more grief than you already have in your life and waste limited investigative resources.
Okay Joy, have it your way. I wish I could help you but i can’t.
Joy,
You totally misunderstood what Gary was telling you. He wasn’t accusing you of arson. He was trying to tell you that your actions could possibly make you a person of interest for investigators determining the cause of this fire, if they don’t have a cause already. I know what he meant. I am fairly fluent in Garyese. He really was genuinely trying to help. I can understand why you’re doing (even if i dont agree with how youre doing it) what you are and I’m sorry that the YHF was completely mishandled as far as a real post-fatality investigation goes, which has affected you so profoundly as an eyewitness. I wish you peace & healing. Now, don’t turn on me. Haha! Gary’s trying to help. Really. He is.
Wood
Thank you Woodsman, you are correct. But here is the way I explained the same thing uo above.
Dear Joy,
My 22 years working in federal law enforcement, about 2 years working for a sheriff’s department, the Arizona State Peace Officers Academy, a Bachelor of Science in Police Administrations, Uniformed Police Officers Training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center as well as Criminal Investigators Training Program in addition to 22 1 week in-service training sessions plus more than 2 dozen advanced specialized training seminars told taught me what I know.
And all of that taught me a basic investigator’s skill, mentally ill people who commit mayhem of all kinds including murders, but arsonists are especially prone to do this, often show up at the scene of their crimes while those crimes are being investigated to insert themselves into the situation or investigation because they get off being close to the mayhem they caused.
Weird, freaky, crazy people just show up out of nowhere and do all kinds of things to be noticed and one way they do this is engage law enforcement or fire people on the scene in what appear to be random and innocent conversations while they pretend to be helpful.
These same mentally ill people also go to the funerals of their victims for example, and that is why law enforcement will video record funerals and public viewings and record license plate numbers of those who attend. Those same people also often call up to the authorities as witnesses trying to be helpful in order to play a game while they try to find out how much law enforcement knows or they just show up at random times and engage victims, families and others in seemingly random, innocent or helpful conversations because you know…they get off on it because they are fuckin’ crazy.
In short Joy, CRAZY and MENTALLY ILL people often do exactly what you did the other day and that is why that deputy took down your contact information. It was just in case the USFS Special Agents who are investigating that fire want to open a file on you. You’re welcome.
You know Joy, people who think I’m smart and like it when I tell it like it is, can’t just like me when I say or do things that align with what they think or want to hear. Well…I guess they can, but that means they are being disingenuous to themselves and me.
And guess what…I’m not a nice person and I’m not here to add to my Christmas card list. The American people never paid me to be a nice person. They paid me to do the hard things that they couldn’t do or didn’t want to do themselves and I don’t give a fuck if you or anyone else likes me or approves of me or not. You’re welcome. I also think you might be more than just a little Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY, but that is just one of the things that I love about you. 😎
Oh…and one more thing. You and Fred with your implied threats really should get one thing straight, “slander” is the spoken word and “libel” is the written word. So…
Dear Joy,
I gotta admit, you are pretty darn good at collecting data Okay, you are the most efficient, effective, determined and prolific data collector I have ever heard of in my life other than the NSA.
But my question is (as related to your most recent travels), “Have you heard that we are in the middle of a global pandemic the likes that hasn’t been seen in more than 100 years and since it sounds to me like you have co-morbidity issues, don’t you think you should STAY HOME and SELF ISOLATE while you invest in your health and not the YHF Disaster while you do what my late brother called Taking Care of Business?” Just askin’…
Your Friend In Co-Morbidity Issues Always,
Gary
Gary Olson on IM recently claims it was the main fire-
Noone but select first hand people can make such claim and there are THOSE people not just FFs / WFs but homeowners and people visiting Yarnell–
I with documentation and listening to the first hand individuals involved in the several firing operations can make public statement not just because of their accounts but we also were there that day and we watched what TrueHeart Brown spoke about at the 2020 Staff Ride for the National Hotshot Superintendents Workshop and what he also said on one of the videos about burning themselves {%^$^] plus much more data not yet public but for Gary to write it was the main fire—
that is not facts just perceptions / opinion / conclusion
I do have the names of the people who did actions and I am doing my part to gather and document / record to present it public the best way possible,
Wtktt for years said if you can show us more than he too feels the same as Gary and all I can do is try but the data must be public that there was spur road firing out operations.
and for the Richard Craniums:
correction:
there was spur road firing out operations.
were not was
Joy, do you remember the exact time we arrived back to the vehicle on Foothills drive? That fire was already licking the houses on the NW edge of Glen Isla meaning that at that time the Helms Ranch was already cut off. People were fleeing because the fire was already in their yards as expressed by many that had no warning but happened to see their yards on fire. But at that time the winds were not up so the fire was yet to be advancing under heavy wind pressure.
Of course the Helms is elevated much above the NW edge of Glen Isla and about a quarter mile above where that fire was as we came out. But of course the Helms is in the death canyon and that fire would have been going up the canyon quickly due to the chimney effect and the higher elevation. I am impressed that fires double their velocity every ten degrees of rise and that would be about the degree above Glen Isla that the Helms is. So you see between the Chimney Effect and Doubling of the Rate of Advance, the GMHS crew had no chance in that canyon. But crucial in this is the time we came out since it bears upon the fact that there would have had to be burns in that area when the fire was still advancing so slowly on the level and even down hill in some instances going toward Glen Isla and Yarnell from the burn areas.
It has certainly taken me much time to envision how it was possible for that fire to have been already to Glen Isla. I had entertained the idea that we should have had more time–even an hour before the fire could have advanced to Glen Isla and Yarnell from where we had last viewed it going toward Peeples Valley to the NW. Our distance the way we escaped the fire was greater and even though most of our trip was decently clear, the temperatures were above 100F and we both were near heat stroke, yet we were not caught in a dead in canyon in that dense manzanita. I just did not want to be caught in a canyon knowing that we had to often crawl on our bellies though that dense growth and it had taken over 6 hours just to get to where we met Eric Marsh. Consider that was only about a 2 1/2 mile hike with half of it on a clear trail–the other half of machete advance in the bellie crawling maze of manzanita. (a machete actulally would be about useless in that dense dry manzanita mixed with dead growth). And if you have any doubts that what I am saying is true then I would challenge you to drive a bit south of Wilhoit or even near Yarnell in unburned areas, and attempt a quarter mile hike or so through similar manzanita growth. That particular canyon of death was especially overgrown–something you can easily determine by Joy’s photographs of that death site before it was burned over. Those photos were taken almost at the exact spot they died at just after daybreak on the very morning of the day they died. You can not get better evidence of what those men faced to get through and you can understand why I was not ready to belly crawl again through it knowing that a wild fire was highly likely to reverse at any time leaving us with our only hope to get into a boulder pile. I had done before my belly crawling –in those days your Army basic training you would crawl on your belly under live machine gun fire–I think they use blanks these days but I still do not like belly crawling under any condition.
The point is, I believe we had arrived at a time back to Foothills Drive quite a bit before the men deployed and the only thing I can believe is that burns had to be set and the men were already trapped–even as we nearly had been using the “safer route”. The safer route at the bottom of the West side of the Weavers entailed a brush free draw and a gravel road out to Foothills Drive. But there was abundant enough vegetation on the sides that we would have been burned to death as well albeit in a slower manner. We had trekked back to see how a windmill had been roasted and the land owner’s equipment had been destroyed. There is about a mile of growth to the west of Glen Isla that one can get though quickly but you dare not get caught even on a gravel road in a wild fire.
The events and truth are gradually being presented–facts and events and times bring me to believe that a jury would already find that there were burnouts and there was a negligent homicide case enough to indite responsible parties to a Grand Jury–much of it for false statements to investigators as well as the withholding of evidence. There would be some instances also of people that unlawfully denied FOIA requests as well. There might also be some auditing of how tax moneys are being abused by such things as what Joy uncovered at Peeple’s Valley of a Chief falsely reporting equipment he did not have to get more Federal Funds–at least by his own statements that Joy recorded. So I just see to much chicanery that is overlooked due to the cronyism. Should it not be addressed and corrected? Yet I have to believe that at least half of the system is composed of honest people and many more that want to be honest but are in fear of their jobs or careers.
But on the other hand do not have high expectations of righting the wrongs when the system investigates its self. If you believe that a corporation or any other entity will give you a reliable report by using its own investigators then you belong in the simple camp. You ought to see this in these police reports with thousands of killings, many that are outright murders, yet the count of indictments can be numbered on the fingers of one hand. Even the George Floyd murder and the Breanna murders are downplayed since the police also investigate themselves. What can one expect when systems become corrupt by investigating their own crimes? They intend to give a lovely public face–and the public buys into it. Truth in those cases is not relevant as far as the police or fire cronies are concerned. But not all the public is fooled and these days it is so that many are not happy with the false flags and false investigations. Perhaps the time to get back to honest reporting has arrived and even for the Political scene which has the worst pack of liars from either side of the two tiered criminal organization people vote for. My opinions–since most believe it is a good idea to choose between the lesser evil. But they still get evil.
Bealtaine fhírinne i réim (May truth prevail)
Slaente (Health)
And may the Irish Gods befriend you.
CertaIn that I do not like either candidate and refuse to vote for either. But still as far as I am concerned Trump is the Commander in Chief and should I be ordered to duty, he would be in charge as long as he is President. We who are veterans swore to defend this nation of foreign or domestic enemies. I do not see him as an enemy to this country and perhaps even less greedy than those before him. He is exposing the rascals that manufactured lies in order to get him out. I see that Colin Powell, the general that waved a test tube of sarin gas at the UN knowing full well it was a ruse to get the Iraq War Going is now backing retired officers that have written that it is the duty of the Chief of Staff to remove Trump should he refuse to leave office. Is it because that criminal Colin is about to be exposed for this part in the lies he presented to the UN that resulted in more than 2 million deaths? Trump is certainly exposing the Clintons, Obama and those involved including Biden in their nefarious actions to give false evidence against Trump. And Biden calls the veterans stupid? What a slew of rascals they were–but I certainly would not put the brain damaged Biden in over Trump.
The way I see it is we are going to have to bite the bullet–I just do not think Trump turned the virus loose and with some of the military and other forces including some in the Secret Service Opts are game to take him down right along with the Hillary and Colin cohorts. This is wrong.
I will wait to vote when someone of the likes of Telsie Gabbard or Jesse Ventura come up–we do need a game changer but insubordination by Military to do a coup inspired by Colin Powell puts him in a criminal light–he should be prosecuted under Military Code 88 that forbids retired officers to instigate against the President as Commander in Chief of the armed forces of the US.
This country voted him in–then that is what they deserve–not by choice but I will abide by it. And Biden is a worse liar than Trump and ever bit as greedy or more if you look at how he and his son have stolen from the tax monies to the tune of millions.
It is as if these politicians know the economy is shot and they are grabbing all they can before the great fall. Meantime the streets are loading up with homeless and many are on the verge of poverty with unemployment already at greater levels than the great depression of the 30’s. But I see this as a plan that is well executed by those way beyond Trump’s pay grade and power level. Those that hold the purse strings and can pump in Trillions along with the World Corporate people have the plan and can manipulate anyone they allow to run this government. And they have run it into the ground.
If you have not read the Georgia Guide-Stone that was put there at a cost of about a million dollars with its ten guidelines I have pasted and copied here and they are worthy of attention:
Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
Guide reproduction wisely — improving fitness and diversity.
Unite humanity with a living new language.
Rule passion — faith — tradition — and all things with tempered reason.
Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
Balance personal rights with social duties.
Prize truth — beauty — love — seeking harmony with the infinite.
Be not a cancer on the Earth — Leave room for nature — Leave room for nature.
You might know that the group that secretly installed that million dollar project put much thought into it–
Each of the 4 granite stones weigh 20 tons with a ten ton capstone. And would you know that there are only about 6 places called safe zones in the US should the Ice Melt –and that is one. Denver is another where there is an underground area set up for a small city. And since I am a miner, and my minor was Geology, I can tell you that Denver lies on a huge sandstone base. I am certain that they used those hog machines that bore though sandstone easily. Back in the 70’s they were working but after 50 years of improvements you have to know they are pretty much perfected for underground tunneling and excavations. Back in the 70’s we were driving tunnels called drifts in mine lingo that were 15 feet to the back–(roof). So I was drilling the face off a ladder with an extra long air leg. Your Jack Hammer is supported by an leg that is like a hydraulic cylinder and lifts the jack hammer as you twist the control–so you can imagine hanging off a ladder with a using that Jack Leg as they were termed and drilling out your round. But that mole machine needed only a couple good operators and a few helpers to do the same work.
I do believe the new generations are going to be in for some unusual surprises. Technology is so advanced that the Military is now employing Elon Musk into the war profit machine. Well what would you do if your businesses never make a profit and you want to stay in the chips?
Meantime war is brewing against China–the military geniuses think they need to war with China before she equals and then passes our own military might. And so they will prove what history has shown–there will be wars and rumors of wars–so even Jesus had that one figured out.
And if you have no weapon–do the Jesus admonition–sell you cloak–maybe even your yard ornaments and get yourself one. It is a wise thing he proposed for anytime in history–and if you want to ferret out the scripture read Luke–and you might find he did not drink grape juice and likely has some offspring–something in the hidden and supposedly lost Gospel that was written. Whether an alien, or the main god visited Mary to produce Jesus is debatable–but I am not going to debate religion. That is what makes this country good–you should not concern about what other people believe–I am against proselytizing–we have something beyond 300 religious ideas and at least 67 known alien species so take your pick and enjoy–just don’t let the freeloaders pick your pocket, molest your kids or your wife, or take advantage of your grandma with their particular line of BS.
Slaente and may the good Irish Gods look over you.
Isn’t it hard to try on the other guy’s moccasin? And besides is generally does not fit. But it is sad so many among us are bloodthirsty and some seem to enjoy their escapades of death.
If you tried to place yourself in the sandals of the Muslim you might slide into those fairly well. Imagine some country coming into our borders based on false pretenses to overthrow our government and then take control of our oil and other resources. Well Bush, Colin, and others among the Military bunch did just that and managed the killing of almost two million of their soldiers and citizens while sacrificing over time at least a quarter million of our own young veterans–this with Hillary, Biden, and most other Democrats and Republicans cheering the blood bath instigated by our politicians after having demonized the wrong country for the deeds of the friends of the Bush clan. Yes, I doubt there is one good citizen of this country, should another invade us under those circumstance not line up to fight the bastards.
But we have seem to have in our DNA the bloodthirst–some with it to such a degree that they have no compunction against killing off millions or others if it involves personal gain or in many times it seems just for their bloodthirst. You can not forget when the Clinton’s sanctioned Janet Reno to do the unnecessary murders of 82 men, women and children at Waco, Texas so the BATF and other police forces could have a practice run. Many citizens were cheering them on–they were misfits practicing a batty religion lead by a nut that had visited the Sheriff’s office more than once. Apparently the Sheriff did not see much of a threat from that idiot but the Clinton’s and many citizens did–they thought he could somehow manage to ruin the nation which in reality was a laugh and rather than grab him on his excursions into town, they chose to entertain their bloodthirst and knew with the right words and propaganda that they have plenty of citizens cheering their actions.
These days I even allow spiders–well at least the none dangerous ones to go about their business unmolested. My house had a number of granddaddy spiders that I even talk to and take measures to avoid harming them. I after all still kill the flies they use for food. However, I have yet to come to the point that Joy is where she relocates black widows–though I have done it to rattlesnakes since I can see them and they won’t easily wind up in my boot–Joy respects others and life and those wild creatures that have a right to live–but she also would defend our country should we be invaded as our leaders have invaded other countries.
As the Chinese speaker said–Trump and others here leading the country, you have enough problems that you have not taken care of in your own country. Your police are out of hand, your people are suffering and unemployed, racism is still rampant, riots in the streets–you would do well to tend to problems at home rather than expending your energies and interfering in other sovereign countries affairs.
That is a paraphrasing of what he said but it makes sense especially our incessant attacks on Iran, Venezuela and now China. Common sense goes a long ways and no matter how big the bully he will somewhere be subject to retreat.
Slaente
Before I go to attempt to do some welding I fell too ill to do yesterday, I have to say if there is a book or a movie produced it should be about Joy. Anyone who dare denigrate her person does not know Joy and her story. She is a true American Hero that was able to rise above circumstances only a person of immense fortitude could manage–she is a true pioneer and that despite the many adverse situations she has faced and challenges of life she has had to face still maintains a kind heart and concern even for her enemies. If her story were to go public some would hang their head in shame for things they have said of her and many would be in tears to know the terrors she had faced and overcame to be Joy. I applaud her and her good works to right what is wrong.
thank you Sonny
for some reason when I read it
I know it is about me
One voice…humbled
the other is when I want to give up, a talk like that says to me STAY THE COURSE
It is hard that the Tobin family and the ties back channel there…I just wonder how much is politics or how much politics and media just cover it up
Yet I am gonna go to the outfit ran by one of the Tobins- and keep peeling the layers now
Donut, please meet with me so I can share some stuff you NEED TO KNOW…
thank you Sonny- that was a pep talk and quite a compliment and YES there is no true enemy with me—I am willing to mend with anyone…
My health sucks…I am heading out to Dan’s to talk gold mining…
I didn’t “claim” it was the main fire that killed the crew, I said it was my “guess” because of distance and time, nor an I claiming there wasn’t a backfire.
Although if I were to pick out the three greatest contributions that HAL 9000 has made to this thread off the top of my head (what does that apology even mean? Off the top of my head) I would select the following.
1. How long the body of Charles Morton laid unattended in the burn.
2. How likely it was that the GMIHC could have made it to the BSR where I believe Eric Marsh was waiting for them if they would have used the time they had to RUN FOR THEIR LIVES instead of defaulting to following deeply flawed NWCG fire shelter training that was drummed into their heads with NWCG DOGMA.
3. And last but not least, how unlikely it was that a backfire killed the crew based on available photographs and the time stamps on them when calculated with the distance the fire would have to have traveled and when the crew was actually burned over.
And that is because unlike me HAL 9000 doesn’t make guesses, he relies on hard evidence. But I know that sometimes we have to rely on circumstantial evidence, which are really best guesses based on the hard evidence that we do have, and that the prisons are full of people who were put there by circumstantial evidence.
And I do hope that if I remember any of that wrong, HAL 9000 will correct the record.
And I’m really fuzzy on this one, but I’m pretty sure there were some awesome calculations from HAL 9000 on how long it probably would have taken the crew to come down off the ridge based on actual feet they had to move and minutes they had to do it. So…
when you go to https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/ and click yes that you read all the disclaimer and privacy policy and CTRL F to Our Mission you will see in the last 18 minutes one of Brian Lauber’s many public photos-
And in that photo that has WTKTT overlays- are we correct that you, Gary, perceive that fire behavior to be the main fire ??? or would that fire behavior be one on the outskirts of those last 18 minutes. Or would you rather state you are unsure like many others out there or ohhh “how many miles a part” – a spot fire from main fire?
Then think to this Gary-your actual thread
h t t p s ://www.investigativemedia.c o m/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxxi-here/#comment-484646
Alan Sinclair was there that day but where was there on all day and night, June 30, 2013? Why does he refrain from showing his google location history to show us his locations before Google History deletes it forever? I mean not only did 19 men die so did his best friend, Eric Marsh. Why not show us? Why did he investigate materials found? Where was his source of learning where that material was found?
He is a part of this private investigation of Holly / Deanna / Willis / Doug / Deborah email thread of the fire(s) outside the main fire that I have been placing out public those Public Records so we all can start to begin to learn what is really happening here ??? So why would they be discussing the same stuff I am but never tying in with me to see if we are on the same page. I give huge hints to my sources public and there are people in private who have the names-
So early on- an officer was met at his work by people he never knew or met just like he saw on the morning of July 1, 2013 where he took photos and they said they needed his phone for the investigation but they never gave it back. Why didn’t they give this man his cell back? They said they would !!! ??? What was on those photo files of his? Also why was he never given the proper credit to one of the famous pics regarding the tragedy and its aftermath? Makes me wonder.
I question how early even Holly arrived to Prescott / Yarnell because one of my Wildland Instructors told me that Curtis Heaton called Holly to pick my Wildland Instructor up. Was it the Toyota event or sooner when she arrived to the area?
And why was she given so many unique special privileges so early on? She had zero professional Investigation qualifications. And remember, the Nation’s lead fire fatality expert (Dr Ted Putnam) was denied that area? The same man who was suppose to be a branch off this group of people seeking truths. You do not think that is odd Gary? That she is allowed freedoms and one of her group people is not allowed out there? And he was highly trained to be out there? Some Bandalier Fire Use Module lady on the Los Alamos prescribed? /controlled? burn that the fire went out of control – that makes her an expert ??? because she was a part of that fire that she admitted on Underslung Heroes comment wall and said “we lit”? She wrote in the comment wall of Underslung Heroes and how Gleason took accountability and responsibility on that fire? When? How? Where? Show me. Just because he went to conferences and shared? or because she said so? Where is the public information that supports her comments? I mean show me how she came to be the representation …. for what— …some made for profit book of MacLean’s??? Something ain’t right. Dr. Ted Putnam is refused to be allowed in that area yet on the same team at that point with all them??? Weird.
Harwood- I said enough on my blog for that man. However, I seriously have questions for him.
Why is it Joe showed Jim Roth that fire shelter versus Joe showing this lead fire investigator (Dr Ted Putnam) who has lived a life of being true and good but there was speculation and allegations Roth was not always so when working in Montana. I know more than one who has spoken such about the lab effort phase and so yeah- ???
The part that I made my comments and attention there began because I was pretty taking back that Gary Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter, Prescott National Forest, hotshot crew boss of the Happy Jack Interagency
Hotshot Crew, Coconino National Forest, hotshot crew founder and crew boss of the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew, Santa Fe National Forest,
Assistant District Fire Management Officer of the Espanola Ranger District, Santa National Forest, Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, Zone Interagency
Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforcement Officer and retired
Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI – BLM Washington D.C. Office
of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Duty Stations – Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, &
Phoenix, AZ, 2.0), actually took the time to type a compliment about Legarza saving you from a burnt head because she gave you a hat. I at first thought there is Gary playing both areas…but maybe later he will transition when the shift happened with Legarza…I mean if I were to actually show earlier emails from Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman you too would be floored that I even got what I got in 2015 because they were all kind corresponding emails from both…Something ain’t right how that shifted but even more so something ain’t right that one would give Legarza kudos for she royally messed up when and how she went through the hoops of that Fire Career advancement process. All it told me is anyone in leadership roles that one MUST fact check and verify…
I am disappearing away from technology so enjoy the site for a few weeks…
I have no point. I am venting…I am not leading up to anything.
Best of all—there has never been a Wildland Fire Tragedy like YHF where there are two eyewitness hikers that are “truth tellers”. Therefore, what we saw and photographed and videoed and witnessed totally contradicts the SAIT SAIR narrative and conclusion..some may be trained investigators and have their methods to get data out…I just gather and release the best method thinking of the larger scale of it all. I want to ensure some areas do not go amiss.
I know you are/were a very elite man in the Fire World, Gary.
No disrespect. I just want the world to be aware when someone with your life history mentions I just don’t think that backfire made it to the GMIHC before the main fire did because of factors such as time, distance and topography, but mostly time and distance.
The old way was black, white and grey but welcome to a new world of fire. That is something I have been trained to a rude awakening. It would be like grandpa telling you of the good old days but it ain’t what it is nowadays.
I am in my position for what I know not for who I know.
Did you have that same path?
Your grey world and the Eagle Scout points- so sorry to hear that…Since 1911, very few made it to that level overall so congrats to you—back in Sonny’s days he had no choices like others did to be a Scout…he was a boy living in the big burro mountains to provide for his parents and siblings hunting and gathering so they could eat so they could get their educations. All his family are smart people…Sonny will refrain from the “cookie cutter” lifestyle yet he can teach you how to live and make a living with just a wool blanket on ya. If Sonny can talk about the shoes he wore—Clam? what were they? Anyways, the best education I got was pioneering with Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny)- something I can carry until I pass on in any environment.
Salute-
To the truths…may one day one of the many who know more just come here on IM and break it all open and share. I know I do my part to make it happen but everything is God’s Time and in His Way-
I love ya anyways Gary—
I just harp on you
as you do me
Who else do we have to release our inner and outer frustrations, eh-
I only made my comment because it rubbed me wrong on that hat sharing moment is your takeaway of Legarza—I could share much better things you could have added in the chapter there-
Hmmmm, 🤔 it’s just a guess, but I think the main fire got there first in part because I remember HAL 9000 found a photo with a time stamp from the Shrine area that didn’t show any smoke coming up from a backfire that was kinda late, I am going to need him to weigh in here with the particulars, but it’s just my guess. I mean there was a firestorm of Biblical proportions racing down that valley that was being driven by some strong winds out of that thunder cell. I think that got there first. A backfire would have to first build up some heat and you know…get going. I don’t understand why you are being so harsh and aggressive with me over this issue. You know how fragile and vulnerable I am!
Hal 9000 may not be privy to what others have
Maybe they should show their data or somehow you tell me how to make it happen to these lawyered up folks
If I name their names here then bam trouble exists in many ways but if we can get some freaking real people in authority and not just some who shouldn’t be and we get them to court order my list then I am sure we can get somewhere.
Sigh,
While others are so busy filling their social calendars with thousands of likes on their selfies and do-good bullshit and you are prepping your Christmas Card list before Halloween even comes around which I will never end up on that list…I am taking one of your stay off pc come tomorrow for a few weeks…
Hey Sonny, when I was in Yarnell the people down the street plays with the people who bought your cabin—remind me to tell ya that story in a few weeks.
We sure live in a dark deceitful world.
You are right about one thing- I am going to enjoy the time off while the external world plays their shenanigans.
I am very sad these people fail to read IM and refrain to show you the first hand data, Gary.
I am disappointed people love books, books, books when it comes to the YHF versus just coming here and discussing it out freely. I hear people have tried and got bullied but I never saw it as bullying even our times Gary…we all get frustrated…we all led very different lives. Yet we all seem to come here.
I will get to my end goals yet just need some much needed r and r- took your advice sir,
Good night and only the best to you
I reflect and pray alot lately
I think back to times I hung out with a-list celebs and govt people and the schmoozziiinnggg we all had- you felt syrupy glazed with this odd feeling we labelled love yet I have learned what love is from my time spent with Sonny and this YHF and its aftermath in a way I never knew could happen for my life. It is painful. Love also can be kind…it is so many things…
night
Well okay then, night. 💤
Nice site you have and lots of contributors Joy. Whew–you got it all from all of Donut’s video and contribution to Amanda and Holly and company reports. Despite all the garbage put out by Donut and company
Strangely I managed a half way house for some years before working at Texas Adult Probation–so I know from experience what the Drug Addict goes through. His chances are slim not to return to old habits–dopamine brain surges are hard to refuse for these folks. I suspect Hunter Biden with all his loot is hid away feeding his addiction and Donut’s chances are slim as well. Honesty is a requirement–something that Donut has been chiming in on. But he knows he has not been honest–he owes the loved ones, the tax payer and most of all wild land fire fighters an apology and the truth. But like the Biden clan and most that have been purchased by big money from China, Russia, and even Iran–he has been riding the glory wagon with good proceeds. Did he get 250 grand for his take in the movie? With that kind of filthy lucre coming in it will be hard to give a straight story when he knows what the system wants to hear. It will be even harder for him to lay off the drugs–but then I am certain he can get his share of drugs through medical prescriptions–they are however, too often not strong enough and the expense can rack up quickly.
Santa Claus took his shot. I will refuse–the virus has already mutated in England so that other countries are closing off borders –they do not want the new strain–It, like its quate will need vaccine adjustment–the flu requires 25 vaccines if you want to cover Santa Clause for all of them–he gets around so the 4 that you usually get might not be the strain that sickens him.
Fortunately, I have a daughter that managed pharmacueticals for years–She can tell you everything in the vaccine and what the side effects are. She will not be taking the shot either–she says this is the way a vaccine should be done with so little testing. There are two different vaccines she mentions–one has an active virus, the other has synthetic ingredients. So at least you have a choice of concoction–take your pick and keep the English at bay with the new mutated strain there–and who knows maybe all that poisonous retardant dust we inhaled at Yarnell will keep the Covid at bay.
Slainte
quate= twin in Spanish–and vaccine needs some lengthy testing before you get this old soldier injected.
Oh…and one more thing. Shawna Legarza can be both a nice person and a bought and paid for stooge at the same time and both things can be true because they aren’t mutually exclusive. So…
And I don’t know about all of those other things you are talking about and trying to figure them out just makes my head hurt. My job is to look at this thing from the 30,000 foot level and make broad, grand and essentially meaningless recommendations while throwing hand grenades at anything that moves as side entertainment because I can.
It’s HAL 9000’s (and a few others) job to figure out all of the technical angles and get back to me with his findings so I will know what to think. I’m an a former investigator 🕵️♂️, and wildland firefighter and not a Subject Matter Expert on any one subject or discipline because there are just too many subjects and disciplines to be a SME in. Who do you think I am…Jason Bourne?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A–k4o5BDjY
I mean…that guy can make a propane tank explode at 100 yards with an old birder shotgun filled with birdshot. Do you have any idea how hard that would be to do? Yes…of course you do because you are a ballistics and firearms expert in addition to all of the other things you are an expert in.
So…why don’t you just get back to me when you finally have it all figured out. In the meantime, I will be working on my book that at least three and maybe as many as six people want to read…okay?
Oh…and one more thing. My other job on this blog is to explain random things about WF in general and hotshots in particular ad naseum from my perspective, you’re welcome.
It’s more than six Gary.
Is that all your analytics show. Then it’s not accurate
I can teach you that on how traffic flows online too.
You know I am in Indiana right now hanging out with Jones family
Always getting YHf data
Have no clue how this will post
Looks all smooshed and narrow
Yeah,I think you’re right. I think it will be at least a baker’s dozen.
Freshly out of the oven
Hey Gary
You ever est potato chip cookies?
My Mississippi family use to make then…they taste like pecan sandies
This cell sucks
No, I never even heard of them. You ever eat Missouri cookies? My mother used to make those.
Yes Gary
The no baked cocoa and oatmeal..sometimes with peanut butter
Sure…every kid first learns to make them
No bake easy kind of cookies
Mmmm, Missouri cookies.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8-4P1WPE-Qg
While you est your cookies
Another video for Bill
https://youtu.be/PGVcwhCAaVY
You had inserted a Donut video Gary so I did too
This time no promo shirt…more or less a decent pastor not silly like the other one…same old same old
He really does not comprehend
I am in Indiana for God’s purpose
To get another piece of the YHF puzzle
Pay attention to public r
I am unable to read what I type
So sorry for typos
Donut…isn’t Highland church the same one Willis goes to?
[email protected][email protected]@[email protected]
Phone sucks
More Donuts…
https://youtu.be/cIlAR5ahfIY
Oh…and one more thing. Shawna Legarza can be both a nice person and a bought and paid for stooge at the same time and both things can be true because they aren’t mutually exclusive. So…
And I don’t know about all of those other things you are talking about and trying to figure them out just makes my head hurt. My job is to look at this thing from the 30,000 foot level and make broad, grand and essentially meaningless recommendations while throwing hand grenades at anything that moves as side entertainment because I can.
It’s HAL 9000’s (and a few others) job to figure out all of the technical angles and get back to me with his findings so I will know what to think. I’m an a former investigator 🕵️♂️, and wildland firefighter and not a Subject Matter Expert on any one subject or discipline because there are just too many subjects and disciplines to be a SME in. Who do you think I am…Jason Bourne?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A–k4o5BDjY
I mean…that guy can make a propane tank explode at 100 yards with an old birder shotgun filled with birdshot. Do you have any idea how hard that would be to do? Yes…of course you do because you are a ballistics and firearms expert in addition to all of the other things you are an expert in.
So…why don’t you just get back to me when you finally have it all figured out. In the meantime, I will be working on my book that at least three and maybe as many as six people want to read…okay?
Whoops…duplicate comment. Sorry about that. The Department of Redundancy Department apparently had the morning off because COVID-19 has now decapitated our government at the very highest levels. May God have mercy on our beleaguered nation.
The reason Gary is not answered by the dishonest and dishonorable cadre is because he knows the game and has the goods on them. They dare not else he expose the sorrys for what they have done and for their inept operations. So for us civilians it is a bit of fresh air to have some honesty least we loose all faith in government officials. The politicians are all save a scant few, sold out for gain leaving the devil in revelry and the humble citizen in pain.
I dare say Gary has made some swallow their admonitions and many fuming inside at their naked exposure–yet you see no answer from these blokes of low conscience.
It indeed will get wild–likely after the election results are in. But then, I being of free spirit, agree that this must happen just as the freedom fighters of the early times had to revolt against the British Tyranny and King George the Imperialist Power Monger.
It was excessive taxation that generally was the problem in those days. That again is here but the suppressors are corporate entities that have taken our jobs to overseas, raped the taxpayer while they pay almost none, and made their gluttonous moves resulting in a depleted economy for the poor and middle classes while depriving them not only of a decent sustenance and even shelter, but also removing basic human freedoms and rights. Yet their corporate black psychology has brainwashed the multitudes into general acceptance of what is manipulative control of the working person and poor.
They have done well to control the media by corporate ownership. The use of false statements has kept the war effort in vogue enriching the corporate purses at the expense of millions of lives with such things as assignations of foreign leaders, drone murders of thousands of foreign citizens–even foreign journalists, and seeing such things as a mother holding her dead baby and children and women not even connected to anything but wanting to live unmolested within their countries. But even as horrible is the killing of our young veterans in these foreign lands so these corporate interests and profits in oil and other enterprises are protected.
Bush, Clintons, Obama, and even those before since Dwight Eisenhower in the 60’s have promoted these wars using false information. You can see a smiling Colin Powell at the UN telling lies he knew to be lies–it was being part of the cadre–it protected his interests and those he worked for. They today live in high cotton on their ranches or mansions while the blood of millions was the cost of their wealth. This I call the reptilian conscience. Reptiles are known to at times eat their own young serving their own interests without consideration of their deed. Those of us who were fooled but learned the truth see them as war criminals and it would suffice to put them to the same fate as the war criminals of the Nuremberg trials. They deserve no less than to be brought before a world court for judgement of their crimes and many have made the proposal.
So, yes I believe that now that the world corporate enterprises have raped the economy and left the people destitute there must be a time of revolt. There is no alternative unless the system becomes even more punitive of the poor and worker classes. Those liars in political offices are not the solution, they are the problem. Unless the swamp is truly cleaned through many hardships this tyrannical and deceitful governing class will enforce even greater controls upon the common citizen.
It is a great thing to see our veterans being removed from foreign lands. I am a veteran, did my time believing it was the right thing and that I was in defense of this country. Yet as I grew older and wiser, I realized that I was nothing more than gun fodder for the interests of a few that have since that time continued to lie and rape the resources and people of this country.
Neither candidate is fit for office –liars, assassins, tax dodgers, and war mongers have no business running this country. There are many honest people out there who would lead this country, even war heroes who would work for the people and not as purchased agents of corporate interests nor be imperialist war mongering power hungry tyrants.
My opinions I own–Slainte
I forgot to add mental defectives to that list–that would include me to some degree since being tainted with an ounce of lead my mental faculties are some slowed. But listening to Biden I wonder how such a person that ought to be pitied for his ongoing senility would be set up as a Presidential Candidate. But then, I realize the Corporate enterprises would welcome such a patsy for their interests. Trump is however already a part of the money game and knows the plays to win the prize.
Wait…I like this version a little better. But I will go look for more and get back to you in case I find one I like better…K?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWO_QtXqjs4
The only appropriate remark I can give to Joy is a job well done. You clearly have revealed the truth of the Yarnell incident and I am witness to the countless hours over the past 7 years you have devoted to uncovering the truth and reasons for the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hot Shot Crew. This tragic incident must be revealed for all to understand and what can be done to prevent needless and careless risk and deaths of wild land fire fighters.
I fear the wild land fire fighting people and associates have gone the way of the Police departments in the United States. Would you believe the coroner for the murder of George Floyd has declared that Floyd died of natural causes and not asfixiation due to that cop choking Floyd to death. The cop had his knee on Floyd for 9 minutes and three minutes even after he had killed Floyd–and we remember Floyd begging for air and people asking the cop to stop choking Floyd. You see, in this world the Police can do no wrong and so it goes with the Wild land fire honcho crony system. Everyone, even many in the public will back these people when they are obviously wrong. We love our public servants but when they lie, cheat and steal they ought to be relieved of their duties. They would be more suited to be preachers, priests or politicians in those cases.
So for Joy I can only say you are a hero and I do believe your efforts will contribute to saving wild land fire fighter lives. And kudos to Scottie Briggs, I know he has put much time and effort with good back up of facts and the aid of Joy and others, including some heavy hitters in the wild land fire trades and investigations like the ilks of RTS, Dr. Putnam to name a few, as well as citizens who witnessed operations and burns that the SAIR, SAIT did not bother to question.
When you investigate your buddies in the wild land fire fighting business it is hard not to be biased.
Slaente
Sonny
I am in Indiana with the Jones…
They asked me what is a norm Joy
I said Sonny explained it best
It was nice to be here
with the Fall colors.
You should be here
for this.
Gathering YHF data
I have learned with wildland firefighting that there was the original creation of the crews but since then..there has been confusion, catrosophies, Corruption, some evolution bullshit, etc
And it should be learn, love, lead.
You are a leader Sonny
I’m tired
Sleep time for me
Long ass day
Talk soon
I will be in Congress soon
What were your thoughts on the debate last night
I am waiting to see real leaders to please step forward
Night
Oh and NORM was auto correct from nom rom
B as backwards mormons
Stupid cwll
I do thing the corona virus attack on Trump has done him some good. He is talking about helping people with some monetary aid and at the same time getting troops home from Afghanistan. I think the doctors need to give him more of the same meds. We need to pull out of Iraq by Christmas as well–get our troops home.
Well this is a good political move since the brain challenged Biden goes along with the war machine to keep those troops in Afghanistan. We need those young warriors home to protect the homeland. Our imperialist ways need to be abandoned–this country is in disarray with unemployment exceeding those of the Great Depression of the 30’s. People are on edge with race wars and police corruption and political corruption festered to a point that change and challenge to the corporate controls will either be made or this society called democracy will have even greater tyrant control. Just hope the Tyrants in control are some benevolent–unlikely, but there will be a great weeding out of those who choose not to wear jack boots or kneel to the King.
Slaiente
The wild fires are at a record high this year–like the Covid virus they are quite proficient at their destructive forces.
But Bill Gates says by 2021 we will have a vaccine to stop the Covid virus. You have to wonder where these so called masters get their reasoning from–we can not stop any virus. The cold continues and the flu despite the vaccinations takes up to 60 thousand US lives depending upon the strain that is active –you just can’t believe the statistics though.
What we do know is that Pharma is being investigated for Criminal activity by congress–They have shown their greed by overcharging for the life saving drugs and Congress is likely to slap them on the hand for it. Profits before lives.
I wouldn’t trust Bill Gate’s vaccine–my own opinion knowing his full background is that he is in business for the profit but acts like a Prophet. He also sees this world as overpopulated and wants me to trust his vaccine. What a joker.
Alright–things are cooling here as well Joy–You are at a place near where I worked building Pole Barns for Hogs–in my youger years–Roseville near the Amish settlements. Those hogs I had never seen or imagined they could grow so large. Those hogs would eat until they could only lie on their sides to get their heads into the slop bins. But 700 pound hogs were auctioned off for the pork markets and the fatter they were the more the hog farmers made.
We had a crew of men that would leave Mt. Vernon, Ill on a Sunday then we worked all week and drove back home in a ford station wagon that seldom got under a hundred. I often wondered how I had survived that job walking rafters and handling poles and moving cement in those humid summers in that area. But it was time off from mining while my Dad worked at getting what he believed to be his just inheritance of an 80 acre Farm he had left after his Dad had whipped him with a trace chain at the age of 14. There were oil wells on all four sides but not on the property–Dad believed they were stealing oil from it by horizontal drilling. But as it turned out, he never could get enough money together to get an attorney and after about a year there on that project left.
My son Ted that died from a ship accident as an underwater welder was born in Mt Vernon–but that cold there during the winter seemed worse than my winter at Minneapolis, MN. I do not think I would ever return to live in those colder climates–New Mexico is about right here.
But there are lots of good people, and especially those farm people in those areas. So sounds like you have found some of those quality individuals.
I almost hiked today but have put it off for a couple days. The dogs did their own hiking but are back–I have got to mend fence again and get the electric fence back in operation–they have started digging under again–except Buckie who seems to be a home dog that does not jive with the hunters. There isn’t much danger for them now since the rancher has gathered all his cattle and so is not out on the range.
I hope your stay is good and the weather not so dry as it has been here. I will be gathering some mesquite soon as the chill of autumn will soon turn to winter.
Reply to Gary Olson post on October 3, 2020 at 1:32 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> And I’m really fuzzy on this one, but I’m pretty sure
>> there were some awesome calculations from HAL 9000
>> on how long it probably would have taken the crew to
>> come down off the ridge based on actual feet they had
>> to move and minutes they had to do it. So…
It wasn’t just me. Many others ( like calvin, Marti, etc. ) participated in those ‘calculations’…. including the ones that determined that even if Eric Marsh had been pretty much all the way to the perimeter of the Boulder Springs Ranch, then there still would have been just as much time for most of the crew to RUN to HIS ( Marsh’s ) location, as there was for Marsh to RUN backwards to THEIR location out in the box canyon.
I say ‘most’ of the crew… because we still don’t know the physical condition of all the crew members at the moment they realized they were in deep shit, which must have happened some several minutes BEFORE the 4:39 pm botched MAYDAY calls that were recorded.
Example: There are still those ‘multiple contusions’ on the forehead of Clayton Whitted, as detailed in his medical examiner’s report.
From Clayton Whitted’s official autopsy report…
———————————————————————–
Clayton Whitted – Evidence of blunt force injuries include a 4 x 3 cm area of left frontal subscalp hemorrhage and a 3 x 1 cm area of right frontal subscalp hemorrhage.
DIMENSIONS…
LEFT – 4 x 3 cm area = 1.57 inch x 1.18 inch area.
RIGHT – 3 x 1 cm area = 1.18 inch x 0.39 inch area
————————————————————————–
They were serious enough to have ( possibly ) caused a ‘concussion’, and it remains a mystery whether those injuries to Whitted’s forehead were what was slowing the crew down during their descent and/or causing them to be ‘fixed in place’ and NOT either moving forward OR doing everything necessary to save themselves that afternoon.
Thank you HAL, I’m going to call that a consensus of IM since I think that is by far the most of us that agreed on any one issue over the past seven years.
Although if anyone disagrees with that conclusion, I would like to hear from you and your dissenting voice will be duly acknowledged in my book. I also believe that at least Sonny and I agree that most, if not all of the crew most likely could have survived in the nearby boulder field as well? And if anyone also agrees or disagrees with that conclusion, I would like to hear from you.
“And if anyone also agrees or disagrees with that conclusion, I would like to hear from you.”
Gary,
My question would be with the height of the undergrowth, could they even see the boulder fields. The pictures after the fire sweep through shows them clearly. But before the fire I am not sure you would even know they were there. We have 2 people here that can answer that.
EXACTLY Bill
I a1 of them
I will state in the box canyon there was no truly high bush and let me insert a video that shows our account describing that
Thank you Joy. And I am basing everything I think about the boulder field on what Sonny has said. But Sonny has demonstrated a great deal of common sense and survival skill throughout his life, so I feel pretty good about my conclusion.
And once again, I am continuing to chew on this particular bone because because the NWCG training, trains WF to die in my opinion because when WF are out of options, I don’t believe the final option should be to lay down and die in an area that isn’t SURVIVABLE, I believe the FINAL OPTION should be to run for their lives, even if they have to use the fire shelter as a cloak of sorts (which they do teach) and run for their lives.
The NWCG teaches WF that they will only be able to hold their breath for about 15 seconds when running through flames, but Tony Czak managed to run 1100 feet through flames when trapped on the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster that were nearly identical to those on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster without a fire shelter to use as a cloak.
My idea isn’t a particularly unique one, I think that was everyone’s plan of last resort back in my day, I don’t believe anyone planned on crawling into those turkey basting bags to die.
It took a full swing of the pendulum of time to convince the GMIHC to lay down in an area that clearly wasn’t survivable to be burned to death when they had two better options available to them except they had entered into Condition Black which I write about in my next chapter where they followed their NWCG training to their deaths.
https://youtu.be/EwbwqwTpTs0
at the end of this video we describe it
Finally got to a non dead zone area-
Sorry JAW and JB for failing to remember that Big Bear data for you- been a wild few weeks and gonna be another wild few weeks
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/post/2019/12/22/part-5-of-5-underneath-every-simple-obvious-story-about-human-error-there-is-a-deeper
The DSC_0002 photo has the East side of the Helms by Vanessa Purdy’s old area that showed 6 to 8 ft tall brush but in the Canyon you will hear me and Sonny talk it was chest high and bear wallow kind.
Watch the Youtube video to hear and see us talk on it.
it is about the 14:15 mark when we describe it
to see that photo on that link
pass all the family bs
CTRL F
search NIKON D80 photos
Although I will say that without question running to Marsh who I believe was either at or very near the BSR would have been my preferred alternative, I am just pointing out the boulder field as an example of another alternative that could have been considered.
Dr. Putnam did some research after the South Canyon Fire Disaster and he concluded that most, if not all of the 12 who were burned to death at the main stand which included the 9 Prineville Hotshots would have survived if they would have dropped everything except for their shelters and run for the top of the drainage. And he has concluded the same for other fires.
I think dropping everything would have made a significant difference in the GMIHC making it out if that canyon. But there is an institutional bias for WF to keep everything with them and go to the shelters.
It would require some serious reprogramming to train hotshot crews to abandon their saws and line gear because of the “what if” factor and the fear of being ridiculed for losing their equipment in the fire.
Plus, stress fear and panic sets in which clouds all of their thinking.
Don’t know about Hal Goo’s estimation–did he take the plunge and actually time how long it would take to come from the two track down to the place of deployment? Well Joy and I did with the ADOSH investigators–It took 20 minutes for Brent the 26 mile marathon runner, and would you know that I was a minute ahead of him. But I grew up next a mountain and had trekked many from the time I was 9 so had much experience over both in rock hopping. Now it took his partner and Joy ten more minutes to reach the deployment site. Brett had fallen and sustained an injury–part of the delay. Bear in mind that all brush was burned away. Those investigators timed that on purpose to get an idea of how long it might take the men to get to where they cut out brush and deployed the fire blankets.
You would have to factor in brush and I would add a minimum of ten minutes to the 20 for the fast Marathon runner and if there were injuries such as Brett had, you could add another minimum of ten minutes to the arrival of all the GMHS. So I would think 40 minutes minimum. The reason of the injury to Clayton had to be the same for what happened to Brett–a major fall. That slope was beyond 45degrees where no vehicle or ATV would be able to ascend that steep of a slope. Add loose rock under your feet and if you did not have good balance, or even if you did, you had a good chance of being on your ass or even forward on your head. With 18 men picking their way down it had to be a given that there would be more than one fall–and those tough young men can handle that generally. But land wrong and a concussion would be harsh if not debilitating. I suspect Clay had a bloody wound on the head since the ground was loaded with sharp rock and boulders on the way down.
Still it would be interesting to know what a long term wild land fire fighter would estimate beyond the fast 20, no brush. I have asked several experienced wild land fire fighters whether 19 men would be slower than one but never got a real definitive answer. I have to believe they would be getting in each other’s way on a rocky sometimes foot sliding steep downhill plunge. And certainly should one be injured as Clay was. You have to know there was no other place you could have sustained a head injury unless one of the others laid a Pulaski against his head–and that would not be sensible in a situation where they were looking at a fire and trying to beat it.
Of course I am certain there have been a few fire fighters that have already timed themselves going down–Perhaps they will respond. with an estimate. With Scottie doing a documentary, I am certain he would be pleased to get those estimates from the long seasoned wild land Fire Fighter. I do not believe Dr. Ted Putnam timed it or gave his estimate–If he did Joy would know. I do not think he reads this site very often–so let us know.
Slaente
Dr Ted Putnam is just too busy with Mann Gulch
I wrote ad naseum my opinion on that subject a couple of times several years ago and here is my answer.
It takes a lot longer than most people think it should because of what I call the “slinky effect.”
Whenever there is any obstacle or pause for any reason in the line, it has a cumulative effect so by the time you get to the end of the crew, it can have a really exponential effect.
I had experience with this because my first year on the crew, the crew boss and squad bosses were so unimpressed with my potential as a hotshot, they made me the second to the last shovel on squad 2. That’s the equivalent of being picked last for a pick up basketball game. The last shovel is a very important job because between that person and the first Pulaski or squad boss (our squad bosses almost always cut line with their squads, they were working supervisors) they control the tempo of the line.
This of course can extent to the last shovel of squad 2 and either the lead Pulaski or squad boss of squad 1 when we cut crew line, which was usually how we did it. RTS really ate me a new one a few years ago about how we cut line, but I can’t remember now how he said he did it that was so much better? It had something to do with the “Leapfrog” method. Anyway, I digress, again.
So I know that when the Slinky Effect finally catches up with the crew, if the crew boss doesn’t hold up and wait periodically, the last guys in squad two have to literally run to catch up and that’s not a good idea carrying tools, plus, it makes your crew look sloppy and unorganized.
So anyway, my theory goes like this.
Every time Steed came to a boulder to work around, or even some brush that was going to snap back and hit squad boss 1 in the face, that he had to hold for a few seconds like someone holds a door for the next person behind them so they don’t get hit by it, and it takes just five seconds, but it could even be just one second because those add up also, it makes a big difference by the time it gets to the last person because the math goes like this, even though as you know, math isn’t my strong point.
19 people in line, with a five second pause
5×18= 90 seconds.
10 such pauses equals 15 minutes. That’s a big problem without compensating for that effect on a regular basis.
It has always been my theory that when Marsh calculated how long it would take the crew to get down the DEATH CANYON, he made the oversight of basing it on his descent without considering the Slinky Effect.
This could have even been a big problem if he simply underestimated the Slinky Effect because the margin he was playing with was so tight. But I think we all accept the fact that he was a risk taker and a gambler who had some a obsessive compulsive disorder in addition to all of his other psychological issues (I think we all have them, the only question is how we deal with them and how they manifest them in our everyday lives) and the fact that I believe he was what a psychiatrist would identify as being as crazy as an Arizona Road lizard.
And this was about where the big discussion came in with HAL 9000 leading it with the big question of how did the crew member (Clayton Whitted?) get that injury on his head? Because a crew injury could really have thrown their descent off a tight timeline.
If I had to take a wild guess, I would guess that if the injury happened on the way down, it didn’t hold them up that long because Steed knew they were racing to beat a train to the crossing. I think that injury most likely happened in the crazed frenzy of activity to get under the shelters after wasting the few minutes they had left to live trying to improve a deployment site that you know….WAS NOT SURVIVABLE!
And that Marsh who was in outstanding physical shape, was not hung over, hadn’t been working and was “feeling his oats” that day and could move through that brush like a deer 🦌, just grossly misjudged how long it would take the crew to cover the same distance he did.
And although I think Marsh killed his crew and he had a lot of help doing it, I think that was the final domino that fell in how the Swiss Cheese effect manifested itself that day and doomed the crew. You know…IMHO.
And just as a reminder, the Swiss Cheese Model is why we need multiple layers of security so that a “single point of failure” won’t you know…kill an entire hotshot crew.
And one of my biggest bones to chew on since the very first day l learned about what happened to the GMIHC, was how the State of Arizona tried to do their usual go cheap and fight fire on a miser’s budget by ordering up a short team of retired and washed up (no offense guys, but none of us are firing on all of the cylinders that we once did) USFS mercs to play first string when they should have been warming the back bench somewhere working in fire camp in supply or as a Safety Officer (Hahaha).
That might be okay sometimes as a Plan B when you get caught with your pants down, but it shouldn’t be a way of life like it is for some agencies. And I don’t even blame State Forestry, they have to play the lousy hand the Arizona State Legislature and the governor (mostly Republicans) deals them. My oldest daughter used to be a school teacher in Arizona and because Arizona is 50th out of 50 states in how much they pay their school teachers is one really big reason why they no longer live in Arizona. There is a cost to those low taxes that attracts all of the old bitchy people who have run the state for decades. You get what you pay for in life. Whoops, I got distracted…again.
Anyway, when you go to a gunfight planning on cannibalizing your critical resources on an ad hoc basis as part of your Plan A, don’t be shocked when you lose the fight. Here’s a little tip, send in your A Team to start with, especially under the conditions like weather, fuel, topography, and a valuable resource like you know…a town, etc. that were present on the day of the YHF Disaster and at risk. GEE WHIZ…never seen a fire do that before? Stupid fucks. Linear thinking and training can never catch up to an exponential threat or crises. They need to train on how to go from 0 to 100 MPH in a couple of seconds. You know…like…wait for it…law enforcement does. “Good day, may I see you driver’s license and registration please? BANG BANG BANG BANG. The average gun fight is over in two or three seconds, with two or three shots being fired from two or three feet. Actually, with the wide spread introduction of semi autos that have been brought into our lives since the late 1980’s, I think it is more shots than that. Everybody always want to know “why the fuck did the police fire so many shots?” (the Breonna Taylor Incident) Ask a police officer how many shots they fired right after a shooting where they emptied a 16 round magazine (never call them clips, they aren’t clips, they are magazines) and they will tell you “three or maybe four or maybe five times.”
Why? It’s because of the huge flood of adrenaline that just got dumped into their systems. They immediately went into the fight or flight mode that has been baked into our DNA over hundreds of thousands of years (or less than 10,000 years if you are some types Fundamentalist Christians) where they immediately experienced tunnel vision, auditory exclusion (they couldn’t even hear their guns going off) and the loss of fine motor skills as their brains instantly redirected all of the blood from their extremities to their vital organs in order to give them their best chance to survive the pending severe blood loss from a Sabre Tooth 🦷 Tiger attack…or whatever. Why did that young man drive off the road on the Twisp Fire in that engine? It was because he hadn’t received even the slightest bit of training of what to expect when his body was flooded with adrenaline and he immediately experienced tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and the loss of fine motor skills. All of which would have been extremely critical in order to save his life plus the lives of the other two WF who were with him in the engine and prevent the horrible disfiguring burns the fourth firefighter has to spend the rest of his life dealing with. What is the cost of spending all of your training dollars on those who are much further up the food chain and almost nothing on your entry level people? Sometimes it’s death and serious injuries. What is the cost of not training anybody on the effects they will experience when their bodies are flooded with adrenaline? Sometimes it’s death and serious injuries. Whoops…please forgive me, I digress, again.
The GMIHC should never have been cannibalized of their crew boss to fill in as a DIV because that deleted a very important safe guard, DIV Alpha and the GMIHC Crew Boss morphed into the same person and there was no one left to say, “ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND, YOU WANT US TO DO WHAT? FUCK YOU AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON COWBOY. DO YOU WANT ME TO COME DOWN THERE AND RIP OFF YOUR HEAD AND SHIT DOWN YOUR NECK YOU STUPID FUCK!!!
And I hate to state the obvious here (actually, I really don’t mind that much) but the point of failure was the cowboy who had the really bad idea and the person who could override him because they were the same exact person.
And RTS informed me way back when that doing that wasn’t that uncommon these days, but just FYI, in ten years on a hotshot crew and four years of helping to manage fires from an office setting, I never saw or even heard of that being done. A hotshot crew boss has the authority, standing and respect that no acting hotshot crew boss will ever have. I never left my crew, never ever. And I always went in with the first load and out with the last load. And that is one thing I still don’t understand, how was that squad of Prineville Hotshots were left alone up on that mountain with a gaggle of fuckin’ smokejumpers on the South Canyon Fire, just you, FYI? If a line or the fire needed to be scouted, I had people who could do that. My place was with my crew. Period. End of story.
And why did the US Congress pass and then the president sign into law the federal Public Safety Retirement Act? The act that makes what most people would consider “full retirement” of 50% after 20 years of service possible? With a MANDATORY retirement at age 57, which was 55 for most of my career.
Was it because they are nice and they like to give away great benefits to special federal employees like those who work in fire or law enforcement? No…it wasn’t.
It was because they, just like just about everyone except for Bob Powers recognizes the critical need for a “youthful and vigorous workforce” in some critical positions. That means that old people aren’t firing on all of the same cylinders that they once were and they need to be replaced sooner than all other employees do.
Do you know what it means if retired USFS mercs can go out and fight fire as effectively as they once did, before they reached retirement age? It means that Congress, the president and the Office of Personnel Management and all of the specialists who they consulted on the subject got it all wrong. And none of you needed a special early retirement package to begin with. Is that what happened? Should you forfeit your special retirement package, you stupid fucks?
Hey…Arizona State Forestry! Pay attention. You hired up old, washed up, ineffective cast-off has-beens to fight the monster called the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster. What was the ultimate cost that all of us are paying…you stupid fucks!
RTS was talking about PAYSON PROGRESSIVE where you broke into two or three scrapers or and a saw team to put in some small chunks of ljne… leapfrog…traditional progressive handling is the worst one for efficiency and speed encouraging people upfront to take too much and the oones in the back stand in there looking around digging up dirt
Blah..blah…blah, Fred is full of shit! He was a shirker on the Murdoch Basin Fire of 1980 for God’s sake! I was asked, “What shift do you want?”
And according to Fred, whose account we will have to rely on since I don’t remember what I said, I replied, “We will do whatever needs to be done, whenever it needs to be done and however it needs to be done. Period. End of story.”
Which sounds exactly like what I would say and what I said every time I was asked a question like that because that’s how I was trained. And training is critical to mission success. I never jumped up and down and said, “Pick me, pick me.” I let our work on the fire line speak for my crews.
And then Fred said, “I would to take the day shift because that will make it easier to change my crew’s messy diapers, please, please, please and because a bunch of my guys got ash in their manginas on our last fire and they aren’t you know…100% yet.”
And that is why I don’t have any good photos of that fire, we worked the night shift and Mark couldn’t take any. But I do have some from fire camp and I am going to make a special page for them on my website because we got snowed out…in JULY.
Which made it all kinda interesting in addition to the fact that once again, according to Fred, they had a special briefing for us because some overhead heard some guys cracking jokes about raping some Mormon women. And some guy gathered us all together and told us, “Okay you assholes…listen up. I’m just a GS-4 but I was told to tell you to not rape any women while you are in Utah and as a matter of fact, don’t even joke about it!” But I don’t remember that either, I rarely paid any attention during any briefings about anything. So…
How come I have to rely on RTS for that…cant you remember your own shit
Its critical to remember that
And WTF are you anyway, RTS’ mini-me? 😂
Oh no…not even near to being him
He is his own whatever it is he is
I just listened over time
I would not want to be a mini ANYONE…I am an individual
I am not a go along to get along
However I would love to be a fly on EN’s wall or Holly’s to know what they talk about back channel about all of us
I rather be a Sonny mini me…that man can sure pioneer and he takes STUFF and makes things so amazing
Yes I was amazed that I am now able to suspend my car in air without a lift so that I can walk under it to fix things on the bottom. I do wonder how that happened except I just do not like the idea of laying on my back in crimped quarters underneath.
So I was able to replace a couple struts and some control arms on that 2001 Camry without the being on my back looking up at the work to be done.
Some things like alignment needs to be done with the expensive laser equipment you find at alignment shops like Big O. They gave me a bill for $97 to which I looked under the vehicle and saw they had not moved any adjustment bolts on the rear and just the two on the front. Their total work time had to be less than 15 minutes and the damn thing steered worse than before I brought it in. They explained the problem was I needed a couple bolts that were worn. Truth was I had pulled those bolts before I took it in when replacing the struts. They were not worn, but when you replace struts you need to have an alignment job. So I said OK anyway and if that is what it needs do it. So for another hundred it drives somewhat better but still not the way it should. But you see why I try to do my own work–granted 200 bucks perhaps is not too bad using their modern technology–but I still feel shafted since I could get those new bolts from ebay for 16 bucks and have them in in about ten minutes in my slow motion. (I have a battery impact wrench that is fast) I just do not have the machine to turn the bolts to the right camber. Yet if I were to do another I would buy one of the cheap mechanical jobs and still may in order to see if they really did set the angles correctly.
It is too bad, people are oriented toward the maximum profit for the least amount of work–something that they do too often in a shabby manner.
I see where new car sales do not really profit the dealerships that much–an average of less than a thousand–closer to 500 unless they can add on about 10 BS items. Their real pay offs are in the car service business where they really put the screws to people. Well not me–just the alignment shops get me.
All you say Gary makes sense because yes there were also boulders to work around and higher than usual brush on the downgrade from the two track. However, having been down that slope many times I believe Clayton would have received his injury on the slope. That the men were considerably depleted gives me thought that more than one had sustained some sort of fall on that decline that sometimes required grabbing a bush to keep from sliding. Of course they now have developed a windy trail that meanders with lots of switch backs so most folk can now work themselves off the two track without incident.
I had not thought about the “slinky” effect but your estimation sounds within reason except a bad injury might even delay the group considerably. And it may have been more than one fall involved. And yes Marsh was moving quickly, enough that I was duly impressed by his stamina and agility. The crew however presented differently as we passed. I did shake my head and comment they looked as if they were on their death march. I remember having in my mind that I would never want to work on a crew that looked that haggard going up that mountain. But if one considers their previous work time with no time off beyond the normal allowed, that they were called away from rest and recreation that they were in dire need of, and that they were in full dress loaded with packs and tools including even chain saws going up a steep mountain in already 100 degree temperature, it is no wonder they would look worn and unhappy. It is a shame that men would be put into action under the conditions they were and when you tax people to that degree their actions and reactions are diminished.
I am glad Joy has been posting more and as these things seem to go after cover up operations, it takes years to ferret out the truth. Dr. Ted Putnam has put in as much or maybe more time solving the false version of the 13 deaths of the Mann Gulch situation. His evidence and conclusions show that a similar method of cover up was used in that incident to keep the Forest Service record and Smokey the Bear face forward. No blame and no shame but no change and the death count continues to add up. Truth, not lies is the only solution to saving lives.
Yes we had left the two track maybe an hour or so before the GMHS descended into the death canyon. We had topped the Weaver Range going in the opposite direction so we could descend the west side of the Weavers where the vegetation was sparce–so much so that the fire stopped at the top of the Weavers. In fact it did start on the West side of the Weavers very near the top, yet it could only advance to the top of the Weavers and then down the other side. Right in the area it started, since we had hiked the area several times even before the fire a good description would be a rocky and bouldery area with sparse grass and about 100 yards to the top where boulders were interspersed with grass and some dense manzanita areas isolated like small islands among the boulders. It would have been easily contained by a crew of men with Pulaski’s before it advanced down onto the East side of the Weavers. It would have been several hours before that fire could advance over the top of the Weavers and then begin its move down the canyon directly below toward Peeples Valley. That particular canyon had very dense growth of manzanita on the south side of the canyon and almost all rock and grass on the south side where an old deep gold mine is. The fire actually could only advance in that dense manzanita on the south side until it reached the base of the Weavers where there was the dense and dangerous manzanita that caught the GMHS crew and in which Donut had been positioned so that he barely escaped with his life.
At the time the weather conditions had it such that the fire had flanked Donut and by the time we topped the Weavers appeared to be at least 3 miles distant toward the NE and Peeples Valley from where Donut was stationed.
When we had topped the Weavers it was such that you could only feel a calm before the storm and as far as wind change detect only a slight movement of air. But I have lived through many of these situations and know almost by instinct what would soon occur. Yet in all our retreat back down the West side of the Weavers the wind had not at all been felt. Part of that was due to the wind break of the Weavers. But when we got into the flats, there still was still yet no wind reversal. So when we approached our vehicle, people were exiting their homes in droves because the fire had already arrived into their yards along the North edge of Yarnell and Glen Isla. My vehicle was about a quarter mile from that fire–but it was moving steadily but slowly at that time. There was little breeze and the wind had not picked up yet. In fact we could not feel the wind even by the time we had reached the vehicle along Foothills drive–the very edge of Glen Isla to the West.
The distance of that main fire from the NW line of Glen Isla would have been about 7 miles so I could not understand how it had already arrived–even almost trapping Joy and I in that area between the drop off of the West Side of the Weavers and our vehicle on Foothills Drive. That area was not entangled with manzanita, yet it had enough brush that it would have been our demise as well. We had a clear sand draw to exit in and then a gravel road, but it was no safe zone at all.
It was not until we viewed the burn at the Shrine on video that I realized why the fire had gotten so quickly to the edge of Glen Isla so early. The wind was slight and not sufficient to move it that quckly from the main fire. Those 45 mph winds did not come until later. in fact it seemed we hung around Yarnell for almost an hour before the excitement picked up from the intense wind arrival and we checked on Penny.
Penny lived on the east edge of Yarnell on the mountain side that borders the east of Yarnell. So we had a vantage point to see the now violent movement of the fire coming toward us through Yarnell. Our trip out with Joy’s photos shows the embers falling on our vehicle as we headed out past the Ranch House Cafe on the South end of Yarnell where all the Firemen were congregated.
The show was on and the State Wild Land Fire Fighting Organization had been caught with their pants down. Indeed the burns were now turned upon the town and had trapped the GMHS crew in that entangled death canyon.
And Gary’s thoughts that the GMHS crew might have survived had they not put credence in those fire blankets seems reasonable. The time they took attempting to cut out a deployment area could have been used in a drop your shit and run. However, I think the burns had already blocked their retreat since it seems some were made close to the ranch. Yet had they decided to run instead of wasting time cutting out brush around them, it was only about 70 yards as you have seen in many videos to an area of boulders totally devoid of vegetation. One in that area larger than a football field they would have found many boulder pile up so there were caves below ground level. Many of those boulders were the size of a Semi tractor truck piled on top of each other –rather a steep climb but we went through them on our hikes a number of times. With their physical youth and adrenaline they could and I believe certainly would have saved themselves. Those blankets after all proved totally useless, in fact, a hindrance in the case of the GMHS’s reliance on them where a dash to the boulders would have been their salvation.
So, yes in my humble opinion, I would not put much value in the blanket idea–retreat to a bouldery area is a better option if available. And Joy’s revelations of why they did not opt to attempt a charge to the Boulder Ranch was because the burns she documents had already cut that area off–the fire did not come around from the north until later. But why they opted for the cutout and deployment in the useless blankets in a manzanita patch instead of the available boulder area has to be because they believed the blankets would save them or else if a few did not, the orders were to deploy just as the orders were to drop off in that dead zone.
correction–the canyon due east of the origin of the fire had dense manzanita growth on the south side of the canyon but the north side was the grass and boudery terrain–the gold mine side was the grass as it too was on the south side of the canyon where the fire had a problem descending. In that dense manzanita the fire slowly but efficiently went down–then once on the floor of the range where there was a total coverage of manzanita, the fire took off quickly up the hills as we watched to the NE.
Rick McKinsey, long time cowboy in that very area knew that getting yourself entalngled in that brush with a wildfire going was something you would never do if you valued your life. He did that very morning of the deaths of the GMHS crew see them gathered near some Church at Peeples Valley and warn them not to get caught in that manzanita brush down low once the fire got off the mountain into the valley. Yet that was the very thing they did. You don’t need to be a trained wild land fire fighter to have that type of common sense, which leads me to think that this was an outright homicide case but treated as an accident. I say no way Jose.
https://youtu.be/nwfg31DPCzY
More of Donuts Fall Collection
Wrong video
Here it is
https://youtu.be/cIlAR5ahfIY
I did not find this posted–maybe it was since it was an extension of a post. But for anyone wondering who this rancher might have been from WW1 he owned the Weatherby Ranch and would be passed by now but possible Drew is alive. He was some older that me at 17 I believe he was in his early 30’s. Anyhow for history’s sake and should anyone want to visit mine shafts near the Weatherby Ranch if it is still under that name near Animas, NM i do declare:
back from 3 hr. hike cut shot since we have a warm day and because of the covid VA hopital cant sew up a hernia that bothers me on extended hikes. It might be a blessing sine I might not recover like Trump if I get that war virus.
I will take a swing of that thermos coffee that I did not touch on the hike and then see how much more Trump and associates, even the Demos are getting Iran and China demonized. Well what do you expect with half a trillion handy for the war budget. Bring em home from Afghanistan, there are bigger deals out there and Trump has sent a bunch of Marines to train next China and is equipping Taiwan and littering the China Seas with our War Ships and Subs. I hope for the sake of our young vets that China doesn’t decide to test an A Bomb over the China sea.
But right now people are well enough distracted at home with no help when they need it most. A damn shame when we can spend half a trillion and likely more on War Monger Projects while the people are suffering–but no problem setting aside billions for the Mexican gonna be financed US Iron Curtain. Keep them field laborers out–looks like we won’t have crops to gather much anyhow and if we do, the men and women now on welfare will be herded into the fields to replace them. The worse violent gang members will be leaders and overseers of the field labor pools.
But I hope they at least provide water. The mormon ass I once chopped cotton for never even provided water in the field and then when it came pay time he him- hawwed around that he was living on a shoe string and could not afford to pay right away any of the wage for that long hot day of labor. I never returned to do more of his needs nor even to collect that wage I was owed. There are some rotton asses in the world no matter what religion they might hide behind. But I was young about 17, a country kid easily used by the greedy. I won’t forget his last name–Richardson out of Lordsburg but he would be dead by now and perhaps he mended his ways of taking advantage of people. I might have been lucky to be a citizen, you can imagine how this fellow would have treated illegals. Likely fed them and housed them in his rat infested bunk shack then after 6 months paid them less than his promises if he paid them at all.
Well he was not as bad as Drew’s Dad. I was going to work at a ranch his Dad owned near Animas. But my Dad said do not go–that old rancher had bragged to my Dad how in WW1 he had executed quite a number of German prisoners after they had laid down their arms and surrendered. He had gotten a dishonorable discharge for it but would still brag about his murders. Dad said you don’t want to work for a man of that temperament Even his son Drew that was a damn good fiddler had a distaste for being on the ranch and live there near the said Mormon Farmer.
True or not he had also told my Dad that he used the illegals for six months or so but when they asked for their pay and he saw they were about to leave he took them to a deep abandoned mine shaft and there terminated his debt. There are indeed evil people and undoubtedly there are people that would and likely do the same these days. My dealings with the poor from Mexico that were illegal only were desperate for work to send money back to their families–often a wife and kids. They did the dirty work of farm and ranch labor but certainly wanted to go back home to their families as soon as the poor pay would allow. That fence is against my experience of living in this area and on the Border and even in Mexico for a time. We ought not antagonize our neighbors to the south or the north although our Imperialistic politicians seem to think it makes America Great. . To my notion it only creates friction–but then that apparently is what the War Economy and Corporate Greedy want. Profit and to hell with humanity and human concerns is their way.
The use of them instead of those is New Mexico speak–or esos cabrones if you prefer. Likely most here that use that lingo had lessons in English but like the Black neighborhoods have their quirks of language. No offense to the Queen’s English–I ain’t sure but what she likely has a few quirks of her own and certainly her Prince Andrew does.
Slainte and may the Irish Gods Smile upon those that deserve
I did go to work for Grace and Charley Ray and was a cowboy there with pay at $5 a day, grub and a tin roof bunk stacked with corn in part on one side of the bunk house–much of which I had shucked together with Manuel from Silver City. Manuel was the congenial fellow that had run out of smokes then walked 17 miles for a Camel–his brand of smokes. Actually he had trekked the 17 miles to the highway on the seldom travelled dirt road out to the main highway between Silver City and Lordsburg, then had hitchhiked the next 20 or so into Silver City where he had a shack.
Charlie had been gone for a week or so on cattle business and when he returned told me he wanted me to go into town to locate Manuel. There was round up and branding to do and Manuel along with an Illegal Yaqui Indian were his best cowboys. The Yaqui had been deported and wasn’t expected to hike back from Mexico for a week or so.
Well Charlie knew exactly where to find Manuel–the Buffalo Bar in Silver City. I had guzzled some of their tap beer myself at times–it was after all a cowboy and low wage earner place to drink. They served a big mug that was a good half picture of beer for a nickle. It was cold and a real boost after a hard days work. Charlie did no drinking unless it was at home so there was no time taken to enjoy a mug at that time–and Manuel needing the job was willing to gulp his last and follow Charlie and me back out to his Plymouth Fury. He generally preferred city visits in his car over his pickup or that slow International Scout he used around the ranch.
Meantime I got ordered out of the bunkhouse for shooting rats off the rafters while I blinded them with a flashlight. I suppose I had not considered the holes I had put in his tin roof since I had in mind that I waas saving that corn–not all were shot off the rafters–some on that plank floor eating corn fell dead from lead of a 22 short.–but I did not object since I preferred the stars in those summer months I was there and it seemed Charlie was not too much upset for the loss of quite a number of rats for a few holes in that roof.
So there you are for the life of a cowboy working on the Brock Cattle Spread and had Charlie not shot Frank McCauley off his horse with a worn out carnival gallery pump 22 and a 22 short, I likely would have spent more than a year there. That short gave Frank lead poisoning–parallelized him from the waist down and Charlie’s action caused him the loss of his ranch and having for he and Grace to go on welfare. She did die not long after the loss of the ranch and I only saw Charlie once after the incident. He never was convicted of any crime but was a saddened man. He told me about Grace’s death and that all he had left was his green Chevy pickup and was living in a small rental shack in Lordsburg.
He had gone from owning a ranch that included 160 acres of deeded land with trout pond and 19 sections of cattle 99 year renewable government lease land that he had bragged he had been offered a million dollars for. Well Joy and I did meet Diamond Jim on our travels during a visit at the Arrowhead Bar just a couple miles out of Congress, Arizona. Joy and I were hiking the area mines and residing in a cave at the time. Would you know it is a small world–Diamond Jim had inherited Charlie’s ranch from the McCauly bunch–he knew me and my good reputation of not allowing the bad McCauly bunch to bully me. Two of them were sons of the Brother of Frank that owned the big ranch NW of Franks Flying A spread and in the Clifton area. One had followed me into the bathroom to do a number on me and at 250 pounds to my 150, I had no problem staving him off with a pocket knife. Those boys like to fight and were known to take on anyone that they thought was not to their liking. Fortunate for me and likely him as well he stood aside and let me pass.
Diamond Jim told me that ranch was up for sale–I believe he said he would take $480,000. Way above my pay grade but the ranch was well worth it. Diamond Jim said he never really liked the McCauley bunch and ranching that much–he was a cousin to them but I never asked how he wound up inheriting the ranch–maybe someone killed off the others. I know one was indicted for shooting his partner over a flourspar mine partnership. I never knew if he was found guilty–but he had been accused of ambushing his partner with a 30-30. I had taken a temporary dump truck driving job for one of the McCauley’s in laws in Silver City while I lived in Mexican town in a 30 dollar a month shack renting from an elderly Mexican lady who could not speak English. I finished a semester of College there at Western New Mexico University at the same time before heading out to work underground at the Fierro Mine some 20 miles East of Silver City.
So there you have an idea of the early west and those ancient haunts where Billy the Kid killed a few. But I doubt you can even get a mug for a $1 at the Buffalo Bar if it is still there and it surely will be one of the tiny mugs they offer these days.
Diamond Jim was one of the aftermath casualties Sonny…he died an extremely wealthy man though
That YHF has depleted so many…
Whoops, my comment is awaiting moderation for some reason so here goes take 3, maybe it was too long and so I will break it down?
As everyone knows who has followed my posts here for years, my goal is to be as helpful as I can in filling in some of the blanks for those who may not know as much as they need to know about either the WF culture and more specifically the hotshot culture and wildland firefighting in general.
I have also written several times that I am not the best person to take on this role nor the most qualified (because my experience in wildland firefighting was very specific to being a hotshot on the fire line and it was a long time ago, the last time I was on the line was in 1984 and the last time I worked on a wildfire from an office was 1988) but because of the fact that I am off-the-reservation and have no plans to ever go back, I am in a position to not only make my views known, but to put my name on them.
In other words, like so much of my working life, I was never the best one to take on the jobs I did, but the people who were better at it than I was, never were standing there when the time came to step up to the plate and swing for the fences (I don’t know why I use baseball analogies, because I never played very much baseball), but I was. Or to put it in cruder terms (that I have used before) to maintain my distant relationship with my former “back of the bus” hotshot persona) “his might be bigger, but mine is here” (and maybe why I use a sex analogy is that I have had more sex than I have played baseball, which isn’t really saying very much since I have never played much baseball).
So…with those caveats out of the way, I want to clarify a couple of points that have always been in the background and have at times confused me and I’m pretty sure others may also be confused by exactly what we are talking about that have recently become even more important than ever because of the recent tragedy that occurred on the El Dorado Fire Disaster.
And if you want to know why I always try to refer to wildfires that have claimed the lives of WF as “disasters”, you will have to read my highly acclaimed and long anticipated tome, “Betrayed by Our Fire Gods.”
But to make a long story short, I think all fires that claim the lives of WF should always be referred to as disaster fires in order to give them special status in WF history because the loss of WF while fighting wildfires should never be normalized or become acceptable. Or thought of as regrettable but as the cost-of-doing-business because wildland firefighting is an inherently dangerous job (which is definition that I reject because excluding random “incidents”, and I have now adopted a policy to NEVER use the word “accident”, such as tree strikes or helicopter crashes, whew, this is another big wind up, but only to use the word incident when describing WF deaths, injuries, or even occurrences that could have logically resulted in WF deaths or injuries) which I think is a fatalistic opinion that is accepted by many in the WF culture. But it shouldn’t be because wildfire behavior is always predictable and wildfires always have to follow all of the laws of nature and physics all of the time and unlike us, they can’t think or plan ahead.
So…we always should be at least one step ahead of wildfires and if we aren’t, it’s shame on us, not on the wildfires, because as I like to quote President George W. Bush whenever this topic comes up, “There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.” I really do miss Dubya as our president and I deeply regret the fact that I just didn’t appreciate him at the time and now his war of choice in Iraq makes our current situation look downright quaint even though it cost hundreds of thousands of lives. But at least most of those lives were mostly Iraqi citizens and not our own, but forgive me, I digress…again.
Speaking of which, the first chapter which is just an updated version (with photos this time, newly formatted by a professional into a book format and proofed by the same person who does very good work for a very reasonable rate) of the same old chapter and that has been kicking around for years just waiting for me to write chapter two (which I am presently working on, and I hope will be available as a free download on November 1st, hopefully of this year from my website http://www.ourfiregods.com which will go live sometime between now and midnight tonight).
So…where was I? Oh…I remember, I wanted to clarify a couple of things that have now come roaring (no pun intended) back into my consciousness, and those are “backfires” and “burn outs.” And that is because there are several different terms that have been thrown around on this thread now for years and I think sometimes we get these terms confused, especially when we start introducing other names into the mix like, “back burn outs” or “fire out burns” or…whatever?
Anyway…this is what I think about those two subjects. A “backfire” is a “conflagration” (and I use that specific term deliberately to describe “an extensive fire which destroys a great deal of land or property”) that is deliberately ignited in front of a rapidly advancing wildfire from some sort of “control line” that hopefully starts out kinda slow and then quickly builds into a fire that is more or less equal in intensity to the oncoming wildfire and therefore becomes the very definition of “fighting fire with fire” by depriving the advancing wildfire of the fuel that it needs to continue its forward and highly destructive momentum.
But this only happens if everything goes just right because those who ignite a backfire are trying to get their own “good” wildfire going to violate whatever natural laws that are driving the “bad” wildfire forward, which is usually wind and topography such as a steep slope or some sort of canyon. And the most important thing that has to go just right is timing because in order for your good wildfire to be successful against the bad wildfire, you need to create an artificial wind because you can’t create an artificial slope or canyon of some sort, at least in the short term.
And the only place your artificial wind is going to come fro is from the bad wildfire sucking all of the available oxygen into its vortex which will sound very similar to giant jet engines sound like sucking air into their intake valves, which can be kinda of scary if you are in the path of the rapidly advancing bad wildfire. And if this doesn’t sound scary to you, well then, you just haven’t been paying enough attention to this whole wildland firefighting thing.
And this “tactic”, which is sometimes part of an overall “strategy” to begin to control an out-of-control wildfire is as dangerous as it probably sounds to you because lots of things can go wrong and often do. And furthermore, I think that this tactic should only be used by highly trained and experienced personnel as part of an overall strategy and well thought out plan that includes a lot of preparedness, organization and communication barring “exigent” circumstances which has been flippantly and inaccurately described by me in the past here as, “Burn Baby Burn.” And if that sounds like a very fine line that can often only be crossed with potentially catastrophic results, you are right.
For example, there are many people who I have a great deal of respect for who passionately believe that the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew was destroyed by a backfire that was deliberately ignited on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster, I’m just not one of those people. I do however, believe a backfire was probably ignited by someone on the YHFD under the exigent circumstances clause, I just don’t think that backfire made it to the GMIHC before the main fire did because of factors such as time, distance and topography, but mostly time and distance.
But hey, that’s just my guess and I am more than ready to be proven wrong and then I will definitely get on the board the right train (and I don’t know why I am using a train analogy either because I have never even been on a train in my entire life although I would like to take an Amtrak ride on many of the scenic routes like through the Canadian backcountry because that’s on my Bucket List).
And if you have been paying enough attention to this whole wildland firefighting thing, it probably sounds to you like igniting backfires at the right time, in the right place and in the right way is kinda the pinnacle of what hotshot crews were born and bred to do. But only as part of an overall strategy and as part of an well thought out plan that includes a lot of preparedness, organization and communication barring exigent circumstances.
Which brings up what I consider to be the second most important task hotshot crews were born and bred to accomplish and that is to cut line (often hot line working directly in front of or on the flank of the rapidly advancing wildfire). This function than leads to the third thing that all wildland firefighting crews were born and bred to do and that is the routine and boring but very necessary work of “mopping up” the fire.
Part 2. nope, too many links.
And that is because unlike the fictional USFS hotshot crew that was created to disrespect the GMIHC in the movie “Only The Brave” about the complete and total destruction of the highly advanced, developed and specialized wildland firefighting machine that was known as the GMIH by telling the fictional version of Eric March and Jesse Steed (and I emphasize fictional because unlike Marsh, the actor who portrayed him did not act nearly as deeply flawed emotionally, psychologically and professionally as the real Marsh did and I have come to know over the past seven years. And if the apologist John Maclean with the help of his posse really is going to write his book from the angle he has described in the past, why…why…why…I’m not going to read that one either much less buy it) “You guys are Type II and we are hotshots, so why don’t you do what duecers do best, stay in the back and mop up our shit” (which is a term that I never heard back in the day, but is obviously be a derogatory term for a Type II crew and something I can’t imagine a hotshot crew saying to any other crew except for maybe the asshole Redding Hotshots led by asshole Charlie Caldwell, I have a long memory, just like an elephant, who treated everybody that badly) all hotshot crews do a lot more mop up than they do things like ignite backfires or cut hot line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGxC6c42sEc
I have a lot of regrets in life and one of them is that I didn’t knock Charlie Caldwell on his sorry ass back when I had the chance to do so a long time ago. But forgive, I digress once again.
But speaking of my long-standing 6 step formula that hotshot crews use whenever fightin’ fire, which is
1. Cut line and backfire it.
2. Cut line and burn it out.
3. Cut line and backfire it and burn it out.
4. Repeat as often as necessary.
5. Mop it up until released from the fire.
6. Go to the crew bar and talk about that fire, the next fire, or some other fire.
And that brings up my final point, there are two kinds of line that hotshot crews cut. indirect line and direct line (or hot line if the fire is RIGHT there) and those two types of lines are pretty much like what they sound like. An indirect line follows the shortest route from Point A to Point B and direct line doesn’t because it follows the flank of the fire which of course meanders all over the place because of all of the variables that influence how fires advance, vary so much. And that irregular natural fire line creates a lot of “fingers” and therefore requires a lot more very labor-intensive fire line cutting (and scraping down to mineral soil, not just duff, which is step two when cutting fire line).
So…that being said (or written in this case), hotshot crews (all crews actually, but as you know I focus on hotshot crews) very much prefer to cut indirect line because it’s a lot less work and takes a lot less time so they can be on to better and hopefully more fun things to do while fightin’ fire. But risk adverse overhead (Fire Team) or tree-hugging land managers often prefer for hotshot crews to cut direct line because it often means less risk for the overhead and the tree-huggers get to keep more trees to hug.
And this is because in the process of cutting indirect line as opposed to direct line (and if this all sounds very simple to you, well then you are right and as I have stated many times, that is one big reason I liked to fight fire, it was usually very simple and almost always very rewarding in terms of work and hey…if a man can learn to relax and enjoy his work, well that’s a good thing, am I right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9YfEZtQBtY you will create a lot of “green” between you and the fire that is one of the “18 Situations That Shout Watch Out”, No. 11. “Unburned fuel between you and the fire.”
And FYI, WF hate “green” fire lines but they love “black” fire lines, hence one of the most important safety tips of all time which is “keep one foot in the black” because if you have one foot in the black while one foot is in the green and things go to hell in-a-hand-basket, well then, you can always run into what is hopefully the “good black” as opposed to “dirty black” because good black is safe because there isn’t anything left to burn. But dirty black can be dangerous because it is often susceptible to re-burns which will often burn even faster and hotter because the unburned fuel that is still there is usually “prepped” to go burn hotter and faster because it has already been dried out in that most of the natural moisture content of the fuel has been lost during that process. This was a secondary factor in the deaths of 14 WF on the South Canyon Fire Disaster which of course included an entire squad (9) of the Prineville IHC.
So…here is the bottom line. The difference between an unsafe green indirect line and a much safer black direct line, is remedied in the process of “burning out” the unburned fuel between your indirect line and the wildfire. And that’s the problem because although burning out an indirect fire line is not nearly as technical or dangerous as igniting a backfire is, it is still is still both technical and dangerous. And that is why risk adverse overhead and tree hugging land managers often don’t really care how much hard work hotshots have to do on a fire unless it gets in the way of having them do other hard work that the fire overhead and tree hugging land managers would rather have the hotshots do.
Now…I don’t have any idea what kind of fire killed Charles Morton on the El Dorado Fire Disaster or what the circumstances where that resulted in his death. But I want to eventually find out what kind of fire killed him and what the exact circumstances were and then I will make my judgements. Because unlike like what the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster SAIT concluded in their SAIR, when WF die or get burned while fightin’ a wildfire, well then…somebody really @#$%&* up and I want to know the who, what, where, when, why and how.
And why is that? It’s because unlike us, wildfires can’t think or plan ahead and they have to follow all of the laws of nature and physics all of the time. And so even though wildland firefighting is an inherently dangerous job, it isn’t nearly as dangerous as a lot of jobs like being a clerk in a convenience store and if you don’t believe me, just look up the U.S. Department of Labor statistics on work related deaths.
So if someone gets killed or seriously injured by being burned while fightin’ a wildfire, somebody didn’t think things through or plan ahead because unlike humans (Human Factors) wildfires are always completely predictable and always do what they have to do, just like the Yarnell Hill Fire did until it became the worst debacle and disaster wildfire in history since organized wildfire fightin’ began more than 100 years ago.
And just as a reminder, I don’t consider what they did to fight the Big Blow Up of 1910 “organized” wildland firefightin’. It was kinda a free-of-all (for lack of a better analogy based on baseball, sex, or riding trains) just like the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon, Yarnell Hill and now the El Dorado Fire Disasters were because somebody or a bunch of somebodies really @#$%&* up, IMHO.
Whoops, I meant to write,
And why is that? It’s because unlike us, wildfires can’t think or plan ahead and they have to follow all of the laws of nature and physics all of the time, in addition to the fact that it’s not about the last hotshot death because that is done and can’t be undone, it’s about doing everything I can do help prevent the NEXT hotshot death.
Oh…and one more thing. Because the “Redding Hotshots” were the national “training” hotshot crew back in the day (I think that dubious “honor” has now gone to another crew, which is maybe the Redmond Hotshots) everybody on it right down to the most junior member, was “somebody” from whereever they came from who had been identified as a potential future rock star in fire management, and that is why they were on the crew on “detail” for the length of the fire season in the first place. They were making their bones on the Mangina Hotshots instead of a real hotshot crew.
So that means I have just insulted just about everybody who became a rock star in fire during the years the Redding Hotshots were otherwise know as the Prima Donna Hotshots and was made up of f nothing but Prima Donna’s.
But if you were on the Redding IHC back in the day, you already know that you were on an asshole crew run by nothing but assholes, which was Charliie Caldwell and his squad bosses. So…
Which is jsut too damn bad that you are going to reconnized as such in what is going to be without a doubt, the greatest book ever written about wildland firefighting in general and hotshtos in particular.
So be sure and go download your free copy of Chapter 1 sometime between now and midnight, or anytime after that.
http://www.ourfiregods.com
Namaste, : )
Gary,
I don’t see anything to click on to download the book. Am I missing something?
Oh…thank you for trying Bill, but it’s not live right now but it will be by midnight and than should go good, I hope. My due date is midnight tonight, but I chomping so I it’s going to be up early.
Give me one hour, it will be available one hour from now and if you have any problems, please let me know so I can fix it.
Well…this is taking a little longer than I thought it would, as usual. So how about I post once I get my download service to cooperate with my efforts. And I do apologize to you Bill, who was my first customer.
Although the websire is live now if you just want to look around on it until I get this upload thing straightened out. I did have it up once, but my book assistandt thought my font style and the size of it really sucked and was hard to read and so we changed it.
Okay, I know how to do this because I have done it before, but for some reason the download service wants the “buyer” to enter a valid prive even though I have entered the code for it’s “free”
So i am going to have to wait until their help desk comes on-line tomorrow because this is driving me crazy and unfortunatley, I don’t have every far to go to get there.
I will post here once I get this straigntend out and I sincerly apolgiize for the delay becaue I know how much everyone wants to get a copy of what will without a doubt become the greatest WF and hotshot book every written.
I even apologize to former Redding Hotshots. Not all of you were probably assholes…am I right? It was probably just a situtioanl asshole (SA) thing and not a terminal asshole (TA) thing?
Can I get a hallelujah Can I get an amen!
I finally figured out what I was doing wrong. And this is going to shock you, but it wasn’t their fault, it was mine. I’m just like a goose when it comes to computers and computer programs and I wake up in a new world every day.
Anyway, you can now download Chapter 1 by going here
http://www.ourfiregods.com/BetrayedbyOurFireGods.html
and then go about half way down the page and click on the “add to cart” button on the Chapter 1 line.
Good luck! But I hope you won’t need it and everything will go smooth. I’m counting on you!
It works! Thanks Gary!
Bill,
Thank you, I’m trying.
And even though I am grateful and humbled by the unexpected reviews from both Bill and Charlie, I do want to lower expectations for my next chapters because Chapter 1 was after all, the heart of my book and arguably the most important and interesting event that I have to recount. For example, my next Chapter is an introduction chapter where I try to explain my primary rationalization and predicate theory for my entire book. So that means I am going to get down into the weeds with a lot of background info and just general you know…blah, blah, blah. So…
Whereas Chapter 1 was really a prologue, but if I would have called it a prologue, most people wouldn;t have read it becasue that what people do according to the experts. And Chapter 2 is therefore really Chapter 1, which is probably way TMI, but that is what I am known for. Me and HAL 9000 becauce if you ask us what time it is, we both tell you how to build a watch, but his will probablyy work and mine probably won’t so….
Gary–Glad to hear you are doing it this way–Very informative already with your posts andlooking forward to reading the first chapters and any you add later.
Gary,
Great job man! exceeded all expectations! Can’t wait for the next chapter. Very well done Sir!
Thanks Charlie!
And the reply to Bill was supposed to be down here as well.
Add to cart was a success. Check out was a success. Ordered and download a success but unable to open the file on tablet so read it tomorrow when on pc
https://youtu.be/KDz_fZn7nfg
New video on Donut
Dammit Joy….
Hee hee
it was 8.1 MB
I am downloading it to my pc now
it would not open here but was able to create it and open it in Word Pad. so heading there now
I was not planning to get on PC but here I am
the two kinds of trees part was funny
still reading sir
really excellent so far
Gary was an Eagle Scout— I was in shock!
You should always be an Eagle Scout if you were one so what happened?
did you get a commemorative pocket knife
I read stuff now with that Richard Cranium voice in my head so he would tell you to write
“Our crew, the Happy Jack IHC, were…”
He would say Our crew members , the Happy Jack IHC, were
otherwise replace were with was is what he would tell me.
Gary- you are a Crew Boss- why are you running a saw????
Not good if you are the Crew Boss
you are suppose to be supervising your crew as the crew boss instead of cutting line.
Boy.
Let me keep reading.
You must be exhausted from writing about yourself all day 🙂
( soft giggles )
You ever notice the more self love and the more you like yourself in this snowflake world- the more the haters you see-
thank you for your recounting that fire for all of us for free just wish Donut and may others would follow such lead freely as you have done so-
I appreciate you and all the hard work, sir.
back to reading.
your chapter cover image reminds me of the image on the cover of the vintage “Some Common Denominators of Fire Behavior” on tragedy & near miss forest fires by Carl C. Wilson and James C Sorenson December 1978
Well, thank you for the reads and the Battlement Creek Fire from your eyes.
I still will always remember even if I forgive Legarza for her ill-actions that has caused me to do what I do as a “housewife hiker” on the aftermath of the Wildfire I eye-witnessed- the Yarnell Hill Fire (YHF)
People doing what she did and never making it right and doing the difficult right thing is why I keep at it.
I refuse to go away.
Now, we are looking forward to chapter 2 of yours
I was a crewman on the Battlement Creek Fire and that is why I was running a saw.
And no, I never get tired of writing about my favorite subject which is me. So…
I am always the star in the movie that runs inside my head.
What happened to me and the whole Eagle Scout thing? Life. They teach that choices are black and white, there are good and bad guys, right and wrong and the world is full of color.
But in reality life is nothing but shades of grey, there aren’t any good guys or bad guys, and right or wrong choices because everything is situational.
Gary, Great work on the book–Death Zone explained –a canyon above the fire–made me think of the GMHS incident.
See why you had so much time off– Thanks for Great read and graphics are intense–this is the best yet read for understanding the wild fire world.
Sad news about Trump–As much as I dislike his work as President, I do hope he has a speedy recovery and gets through this thing OK. I think he will since only about 1% die and those are people compromised in the elderly bracket. Someone doctor said he has an obesity problem but I do not see that and we know he will get the best treatment–and so will his wife.
This designer virus was a thing sanctioned by Fauchi–he will be in real hot water if the President is killed by this thing and should be as it is.
There is now an outbreak of Bubonic Plague in China–two different strains and China is playing it down. Is this another gain of function virus turned loose from a Level 4 laboratory. Remember that anthrax incident came from a Level 4 facility where it was even determined exactly where it came from in the US. There were two scientists suspects in the case but nothing could ever be proved–yet that gain of function virus sickened 22 and killed 5 during 2016. This virus came from Ft. Detrick, MD Military Level 4 lab, same as the gain of function SARS that was upgraded with a gain of function in 2015. China is being blamed, but it would seem to me to be no big problem for a Chinese tourist to take a vial to Wuhan and turn it loose there so the Chinese get the blame. Now we have Bubonic Plague loosed in China as well–what gives and in this clandestine world of secret and black opts it is hard to know what the players are up to.
If you look at the Gulf of Tonkin false flag, and how Hillary, Bush and Colin Powell outright lied –much of the lies exposed by Assange, we know that anything goes. Bannon has said as have some of the top Military people that it is better sooner than later to take on China before China escalates its strength to where they believe it will overwhelm the forces of the United States.
This is a sad world where Corporations own the government, media, Wall Street and the politicians so the elite pay almost 0 taxes. At this point are taking all the profits and wealth and grabbing as much as they can before this country winds up in another depression. If you look at Trump he has paid no taxes for years now and sued for a multi million dollar refund because he has a failed business.
But Joe Biden–obviously ought to be retired and tested for either dementia or Alzheimer disease–sad situation and likely worse off than Trump –And in all this there are some good Presidential candidates –people with good character and against the war mongering types that want to play world policemen and do the assassinations of foreign dictators so oil and other foreign resources can be secured for our benefit. Yet we are shipping out oil, have our own resources and the science to get us off oil and on cheap or even free energy–but the corporate profits are not there.
I will write in ‘Telsie Gabbard for President and Jesse Ventura for VP. They have both served this country in War Time and both are not puppets for the War Profiteering Corporate Giants. They want diplomacy not the bully actions we are seeing in our foreign relations these days. Peace, not war or actions that will create war such as flooding the China Seas with out Navy and threatening China, Iran, and Venezuela. Do not forget, Russia is looking on and all hell can break loose–we have plenty to do here at home rather than threatening these nations abroad–my how we forget how easily the twin towers came down–and who knows what else is in the making.
There may well be a mad scientist or a group letting these plaques loose –the idea that the world population needs to be reduced by a big factor has been determined and that group of elite scientists pegged the date at before 2030 or overpopulation and the resulting pollution and depletion of resources, global warming, etc threshold will be met with no possibility of reversing the process of making earth uninhabitable. Are the scientists and AI wrong? Who knows–maybe their super computers worth billions have it all figured out.
One way or another do expect some drastic changes –and if you expect and prepare for to accept the worse and it does not come–that is great–but the gray clouds are beginning to darken when you see even your President down with the war designer virus.
Saliente
Most of you know I am an anomaly–You just do not live through a six heart attacks, one which you were revived from the dead, while 9 other heart attack victims in that same hospital that week died. I probably owe Joy for saving my life by ordering the nurses to take me off life support–my VA records orders are they were not to take extra measures to keep me alive. To add to that, I was assigned to the Hospice ward at the VA Hospital and the Cardiologist informed me that I should get things together since almost 50% of my heart is now destroyed not to return–the statistics say cases like mine are dead in 9 out of 10 by one year.
Well, my dog Charlie shot me dead on a rabbit hunt 7 years later–The loss of 6 units of blood after bleeding out from a point blank shot gun wound in my back 25 miles in the outback of my area during a 30 minute wait for help and a subsequent ride to a trauma unit. That 12 guage had an ounce of number 8 shot that shattered my clavicle into pieces then pierced my right lung and cracked three ribs leaving behind a wound the size of a ladies fist that took more than three months with a medi-vac device that I lived with to keep sucking out the pus or whatever forms in a wound that size to close it. I had to see a nurse every three days so she could redress the wound and clean out that machine–that was a drive for me 20 miles into to town. Because the shot cracked my ribs then spread out in my chest cavity but did not exit, I have that ounce of lead floating around in so that an X-Ray looks like my chest is a star system.
Yet I avoided meds both in the heart department and the other except the pain medication during those 90 days when it would often become beyond toleration. Fortunately, I have a sensible VA Doctor and he agrees with my regimen enough–take plenty of Omega 3, vitamins and he has prescribed a couple other things that I admittedly have skirted very badly. Since the Covid thing for several months now I have not seen a doctor, been to any hospital–that might be a life saver in itself since getting Covid 19 might be another killer.
I do think the lead I walk around with puts me in the category of Joe Biden, but I damn sure want no sympathy. I do sympathize with Biden–he ought to be at home with a home care nurse to help him with his daily chores–someone to assure him where he is and the like. The VA is very kind, they early on offered me a home nurse by I declined–I also declined the rehabilitation stent in a local facility–something like where the sick or damaged get a physical therapist to help them recover action in their arms. I instead after did dig more than 30 post holes and built a ramp of railroad ties so I could drive my car above my head to work on the underside without having to lay on my back to fix things. And of course me and my dogs were taking 4-6 mile hikes daily–so I gave myself some physical therapy;
But like Biden, the lead has my mind slowed and fortunately it is not so damaged that I don’t know where I am at. But then I do not think any of us really know the danger we are in and just as the nation was not prepared to fight the war virus invented by our illustrious scientists and then released in China–we are mostly unaware and unprepared of this new wave of population reduction measures at hand.
I see there is a big move, even legislation to cause everyone to take the flu vaccine. God save me from the monkey pus, formaldehyde, aluminum, bismuth and other poisons they want to add to my system to cause these antibodies–hopefully the particular strain they protect against–in flue the odds are 1 out of 25 but actually I think the vaccine does some help against 4 out of the 25 strains known. If any of the other 21 show up, the vaccine is useless or maybe even harmful enough to escalate the disease. The lead I have in my body has elevated my blood lead level enough to create antibodies that ought to kill anything while making me a dim wit too boot.
I tell you in all this, I am considerably happy in my own skin–damn sure do not want to murder multitudes of Chinese or Arabs or Venezuelans –especially those women, children and innocent fellows trying to eck out a living in their own lands as our leaders of this land have effected with their drones, assassinations and war invasions. And of course most tragic is the willingness of these so called leader types to sacrifice our young soldiers in foreign wars to appease and enrich the Corporate war complex at the expense of the taxpayer and future generations. They, like big pharma, the chemical retardant companies, the oil industries, and big banking concerns all vie for profits and their complex machine is drenched in the blood of the masses and common man without conscience.
It behooves us to entertain the thoughts of some of those wise ones concerned about life with good conscience–those that put life before profit. There are a few out there that would lead in good form, although I do fear the Corporate Fascist State has now gained a stranglehold on Police and Military so that freedoms will never again be restored. What happened to the Patrick Henry’s that said give me freedom or give me death?
But freedom is not killing millions in other lands when they are poor countries only trying to survive. Send medical aid and food to peoples that are suffering where we can–not bullets and drones to kill off their poor. These regime change wars only replace the despots with new despots and create greater enemies for our invasion of their lands. If they did what we do to them, we would understand their hatred of our military industrial and corporate profit in war machine.
I am sorry for the legacy our leaders have been leaving for our children. We have outdone Britain and Germany in our imperialistic war to control system against other poor nations. Their bitterness will be visited upon future generations–the atrocities we continue to exert will come home to roost–Karma will not be denied.
May the good Irish goods treat everyone as well as they have treated me should they be deserving, and may this good planet not go the way Mars had gone.
Saliente
The Irish Goods are the Irish Gods–but the Irish would know –Be Kind least the Leprechaun visit for theft of his gold.
We do need an enemy–how else can our country justify the immense budget for military spending 2020-2021–712 billion of discretionary spending with 8,9 billion mandatory and with estimates coming to 933 billion of actual spending for military purposes. That is almost a trillion dollars and beyond 50% of the budget while the country is in shambles and people are resorting to food lines and tents along the streets and even now the President is down with the war fund designer war virus Covid 19. How strange it is when records show that virus was given gain of function at the the level 3 lab in Chapel Hill, NC under the permission granted by Dr. Fauchi with both Chinese and US funding to a Chinese doctor–a name I posted before–and one who completed that gain of function and returned to Wuhan, China. So point the finger and four are pointing back Mr. Trump. Fauchi is quiet–even said the virus did not originate in China but he lies as often as Trump. So who can tell–Lies are in vogue and the American public is gullible for the most part –or should I say tolerant or maybe jaded to political bull shit. Maybe it was education–you know people are waking up to find out that Columbus was not the first white man to set foot on American Soil–the Vikings, the Irish, the early miners taking copper from the Lake Erie copper mines and the Phoenicians even. But just as there has been found machined iron embedded in coal seams and other strata dating hundreds of thousands of years ago and some even millions of years, those are called anomalies–not recognized since they do not jive with the evolutionary theory. And if you had proposed them during the middle ages you would have been burned at the stake to save your soul by the good Catholic method.
So it goes that our American Industries such as Apple, Levi and a hundred more moved to China for the cheap labor and these American Corporate goods are shipped here allowing Trump to blame China for a trade deficit. There is no trade deficit–these goods are counted as Chinese when they are the products of our own American enterprises.
What is truth is that plenty of disinformation, lies and demonizing of China must be made in order to justify a near Trillion dollar military spending spree. What am I missing–Pompeo says we must immediately address the China threat–those fucking Commies–they were in Russia for what ongoing since 1945 until supposedly Regan put the shaft to them but now the Cold War must go on and America must increase its already ability to do the earth in. Seems Russia is happy with being able to do the earth in 40 times over and now America needs more technology to do it over 100 times. How scary can our country get. You can make this planet look like the Martian surface with just what Israel has or even Pakistan or India.
You are right, I am too simple for the games I see–A precision of war produced by trillions of dollars of hard earned tax dollars yet 19 rag tag Saudi’s took the twin towers down with box cutters. I have to wonder with the Chinese intelligence–they have made some progress in all the sciences –should we now start threatening them in the way Trump and Biden are doing. Both these fellows are sick individuals–What prey tell would stop China from parking a nuclear sub beyond 12 miles off our shores in International waters and firing off their nukes should they feel war was inevitable with the US? A first strike would demolish the American Empire and reduce this country to third world or less status.
For some reason we want to relegate people that would stop the insane needling of other countries as weak. They are not and most will stand and fight an invasion–the very thing we have been doing to other countries since the second world war. Bringing our soldiers home to take care of home is the right thing to do. We have screwed with other peoples in distant foreign lands for too long. Other countries know better than to invade our homeland–but keep invading theirs and the tide is destined to change — and if you bring Apple and all the other Corporate enterprises back home that trade deficit will disappear and millions of jobs will reappear.
But now that the cold war is on and very likely to become hot, be ready as you can–enjoy this day since tomorrow may not exist in these times of war among the war mongers and military decisions to confront those our leaders perceive as weak.
Saliente
Gary said: “his might be bigger, but mine is here” (and maybe why I use a sex analogy is that I have had more sex than I have played baseball, which isn’t really saying very much since I have never played much baseball).
Joy’s reply: I guess you only played baseball once.😁 You ever sit waiting at an airport🗺🗽🛫🛬💺thinking next time I am just taking me and no baggage. 🌟I mean its tough as I try to go elsewhere to heal🤪 to wear even a backpack because of the tumor in that area and the lymphatic congestion. Ow. On the way back later this month I plan to ship my backpack to my next destination versus carry it. Easier. I never seen the airports this empty. Weird. Jim B, I am very sorry I failed the inquiry fulfillment. As soon as I got home I wanted to get rest and then see how my Republican neighbors now have all Biden flags flying. That was odd. Saw division amongst the neighborhood. Almost can see come election there be this odd civil war. I am already a ghost town so wont take much to keep that label going. Anyways you ever wake up and just be glad you awoke but you feel a bit slower than the old you…I am there.
🦍is there an 800 pound gorilla in the room?
I had someone ask…when is chapter 2 due out, Gary?
November 1, hopefully of this year.
Horseshit Donut.
Redo to Redemption?
How much did they pay you for this star struck presentation?
https://youtu.be/2Gz3bnhoDpc
You aced the Rewrite part of their message.
Redo of things of your life is the recap of this message.
The boasting from this pastor is naseauting especially the star struck horseshit 🌟
NOT EVERYONE Pastor knows 🍩 Donut
Elbow to elbow greet
Come on Autumn…did he just stumble upon your church?
Naseauting Pastor
Famous for negative reasons?
Ugh
Nice promote t-shirt Donut
Who did you try to evacuate and which home did you try to save?
Horseshit
🏇
Yuk.
. spotlight? This pastor is ridiculous
You still need to identify and in that you will see the identity Donut
You will not find it being buds with the likes of some offspring of the tobins and such
I am just wondering wtktt…does Donut have a Sag card now?
Moving a 100000 tons of rock talk…ugh
His talk on his suicide attempt…we have to keep praying for Donut..he has not publicly done the difficult right things as what I the YHF eyewitness and I have been doing on the yarnell hill fire revelations blog and I know he has a baby boy and the girls and feels it is my job now but no…those men that died had kids… family and friends too…
By the way donut
Failure is okay
It is the growth from it that matters
Refuse to fear failure
A!ot of superimposing
Hopefully you are through these omissions do help someone but some day
You need to do the difficult right thing
If you did not get a Sag card… don’t bother…I know the REAL story
I was there.
He comically says he is an underwear model nowadays
Ugh
These people are giving platforms
Yet it’s just chatter chatter
At least in my rambles I offer real documentation that has never been brought to public
You speak..and it may make others star struck but I was on those Weavers too
I saw it
Come on man
July penalty lunch with the pastor.
Wow.
Hey Pastor, 🍩 Donut does not need a redo…he needs to DO!
https://youtu.be/_aLv9M7hlUc
Another Donut video Bill
Gary
What can you share about a Linda strader? Besides she was one of the first women Wildland firefighter
As everyone who has been reading my posts here on this thread for the past seven years know that I have often compared the law enforcement program that I knew to the fire program that I knew and continue to read about and that the fire program always comes at least 30 or 40 years behind the LE program.
1. One of the first thing those who supervise and manage the LE program do immediately after a traumatic incident, is to flood the zone with highly trained and usually experienced Peer Counselors on a one on one basis for everyone who was directly involved in the traumatic incident or who might be in need of some counseling or just someone who they can talk to who can relate to what they have just been through in a stop gap measure pending more experienced and directed counseling, perhaps by trained psychologists and psychiatrists who are trained in helping those who have been involved in traumatic incidents.
2. If that didn’t happen in the case of the Big Bear IHC immediately after the traumatic incident they went through on the El Dorado Fire Disaster, I don’t know quite what to say? But over time, I’m pretty sure I will think of some things to say about it.
3. If you have been reading my posts for the past seven you also know that knowing everything I have now known for decades after working in, supervising and managing the federal LE program that I did and just by being aware that society in general has changed by advancing in it’s thinking, I continue to be surprised that not only did they have our crew, the Happy Jack IHC continue to work on the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster after the traumatic incident occurred on that fire involving the Mormon Lake IHC and our crew, but they had our crew mopping up that fire the day after the incident occurred in the very same area of the fire where the incident occurred around the bright flagging that marked where all three bodies had been recovered from. Nor were we released from the fire until we would have been under normal circumstances. And in that particular case, not only were both crews that has been involved from the same forest, both crews were only stationed about 12 miles from each other at the time and went to the same bar, which was at the Mormon Lake Lodge.
4. The most shocking thing that I have read in so long that I don’t remember the last thing I read or even heard about that more was shocking, is that fact that they had the Big Bear IHC searching for their missing and presumed dead (after that many hours I presume they assumed or at least feared he was dead) crew member, Squad Boss Charles Morton. And that not only that, but Carlos Baltazar who was last seen on the 20th and was distraught over the death of Charles Morton, was actually in the group who eventually found his body. And I presume that Charles Morton’s body would have been found well inside the burn and was most likely burned very badly which would have without a doubt, added to the trauma.
5. Big Bear IHC crew members NEVER should have been part to the team searching for Charles Morton absent any exigent circumstances, and after several hours any pretext of exigent circumstances should have been long since been abandoned by reasonable people and they should have known they were on a RECOVERY MISSION AND NOT A RESCUE MISSION.
The fire program that I continue to read about continues to disappoinjt and appal me in the very poor way it is being managed.
Good points.
Carlos Baltazar’s niece, Veronica, verified to NBC ( Los Angeles ) today that ALL the Big Bear Hotshots were actually allowed to assist in the recovery of Big Bear Squad Boss Charles Morton’s body.
Veronica Baltazar told NBC…
“I know they all played a role in recovering Charlie. That did impact him ( Carlos ) a lot.
NO ONE should have been doing that unless they are trained to do so.
The psychological impacts can be devastating for an untrained person.
NBC – LOS ANGELES
Article Title: ‘We Just Want My Brother Home’: Family Searches for Hotshot Firefighter
Published: September 26, 2020 – By: Christine Kim
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/we-just-want-my-brother-home-family-searches-for-hotshot-firefighter/2434486/
From that article…
—————————————————————-
The search continued for a missing off-duty hotshot firefighter Saturday, a day after his squad leader was laid to rest.
Carlos Baltazar, 35, has been missing since Sunday and his family says they just want answers.
Baltazar’s niece says she was the last person in their family to see him.
It was Sunday and she helped jump his car and he told her he was on his way back to Big Bear for a meeting with his hotshot crew.
Since that night he hasn’t answered his phone, which they say is completely out of character.
“I don’t know what happened with my son,” said Maria Baltazar, the firefighter’s mom.
His mother, niece and sister say they reported him missing Thursday after he didn’t show up to work.
Rescuers searched for him from the ground using bloodhounds and from the air. K9’s tracked his scent but lost it.
On Saturday, two dogs were used as part of the search and the search was set to continue through the night using aerial support from the sheriff’s department, officials said. Baltazar was still missing as of Saturday evening.
His family says they found his backpack 75 yards from his abandoned vehicle on Highway 18 and Delta Avenue with his wallet left in the car.
The sheriff’s department says there’s no indication of foul play.
“It’s not just like him,” said Melinda Herrera, his niece. “His faith in God is really strong. So for him to do anything to himself, it wouldn’t make sense.”
But they say the last time they spoke to him he was grieving. He’s part of the Big Bear United States Forest Service Interagency hotshot crew.
The same tight-knit group of firefighters who on Friday mourned the death of squad boss Charlie Morton who died while fighting the El Dorado Fire.
“I know they all played a role in recovering Charlie,” said Veronica Baltazar, his sister. “That did impact him a lot.
Morton’s death weighed heavily on him.
His family is fearing the worst and asking anyone who may have seen something to help them find answers.
“We just want my brother home,” Veronica said.
—————————————————————————————
KTLA 5 in Los Angeles is confirming that Baltazar was, in fact…
“part of the team that found Morton’s body”.
KTLA – Channel 5 – Los Angeles / Hollywood
Article Title: Big Bear Hotshot firefighter vanishes while off duty; car found abandoned after crash on Highway 18
Published: Sep 25, 2020 / 02:56 PM PDT
Updated: Sep 25, 2020 / 10:12 PM PDT
By: Tracy Bloom, Rick Chambers, Chris Wolfe, additional reporting by Nidia Becerra
https://ktla.com/news/local-news/big-bear-hotshot-firefighter-vanishes-while-off-duty-car-found-abandoned-after-crash-on-highway-18/
From that article…
———————————————————————————
His family said Baltazar had been depressed since the death of ( Charles ) Morton, who was his captain.
Baltazar was also part of the team that found Morton’s body in the ruins of the El Dorado Fire.
“I think that it just weighed heavily on him — because they are so close — that he wasn’t able to help him… knowing that he couldn’t do anything for him,” his sister Veronica Baltazar said.
————————————————————————————
The VIDEO that accompanies the article has a KTLA 5 reporter now saying that the ‘front end damage’ to Baltazar’s vehicle was caused by an impact with a guard rail not far from where his vehicle was found abandoned.
Oh…and one more thing. The Mormon Lake IHC were both involved with searching for and finding their missing and deceased crew boss and follow crew member on the Battlement Creek Fire due to what I believe were valid exigencies circumstances.
But. I don’t believe any exigencies circumstances existed by any stretch of the imagination that would justify the use of the Big Bear IHC in searching for and finding the body of Charles Morton.
I also understand that the crew probably wanted to be involved in the search in the worst way, but that was the time for independent and clear thinking overhead to step in and you know…DO THEIR @#$&*+% JOBS and take control of the situation to protect the crew from themselves.
Gary said:
2. If that didn’t happen in the case of the Big Bear IHC immediately after the traumatic incident they went through on the El Dorado Fire Disaster, I don’t know quite what to say? But over time, I’m pretty sure I will think of some things to say about it.
My reply: in my Google alert it had EMF person there in person for the BBHS so it is all ok. I mean not to be snarky yet after reading those prt releases (2019 and 2020 ) text and email threads that HOW MANY knew about the GPS UNITS and never followed through blows me away. Yet HOW MANY are out searching. I reached out back channel and on here but I am for sure no professional to show up at their hotshot base… however I pray they DO the difficult right thing and I hope they also GET our technology so why is there still a claim anyone is amiss? Seriously?! I refuse to allow them to avoid the 24 and 72 hr report and by policy I do think it has to be a FLA or SAIT SAIR or CRaP on many fires this season and avoid this BS lesson review stuff as it has been showing…the review is all lives matter ..one must refrain from allowing the WF World turn into this war I se happening. Starts with you Big Bear HS.. you know we all are hoping you share in true form.
https://wildfiretoday.com/2020/09/25/southern-california-hotshot-has-been-missing-since-sept-20/
please get the word out on your social media
I have bad bandwidth but I please urge this message to reach all social media platforms
**
** FAMILY MEMBERS OF MISSING BIG BEAR HOTSHOT CARLOS BALTAZAR
** TELL CBS LOS ANGELES HE MAY HAVE FELT RESPONSIBLE FOR
** FELLOW HOTSHOT CHARLES MORTON’S DEATH…
CBS LOS ANGELES
Video published: September 25, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRwxDq6-32w
Video Description:
—————————————————————————————-
Carlos Alexander Baltazar, 35, was reported missing by his family Thursday ( September 24, 2020 ). His vehicle was found Sunday by the California Highway Patrol on Highway 18 and Delta Avenue ( Way ) with some damage to the front.
—————————————————————————————
Nicole Comstock, CBS reporter, has already interviewed some of Carlos’ family members ( on camera ), and here is some of what they had to say in the video…
At +1:15
—————————————————————————————–
Nicole Comstock reporting for CBS, Los Angeles:
Carlos had been a member of an elite firefighting crew, the Big Bear Hotshots, for a year now. He recently worked northern and southern California wildfires back to back, most recently at the El Dorado fire on the same team where his crew ( squad ) boss Charles Morton went missing and was later found dead.
Veronica Baltazar ( sister ):
He had mentioned that… uhm… he felt like… like he coulda done more.
Uhm… that he felt like maybe it was even his fault.
Nicole Comstock:
Melinda Herrera ( Carlos’ niece ) says she tried to talk with her uncle about coping with the loss of his colleague.
Melinda Herrera ( niece ):
He just kept sayin’ that we wouldn’t understand, and that there was no point of telling us ‘cus that we didn’t understand what him and his crew went through.
Nicole Comstock:
But now they’re worried that the stress may have overwhelmed him.
Melinda was the last person to see Carlos.
She says he called her on Sunday near his mother’s house in San Bernadino, after his car battery died. She says a friend came over to give him a jump and then Carlos headed up Highway 18 to go be with his fellow firefighters in Big Bear.
Melinda Herrera ( niece ):
I hugged him and then I told him to text me when he got there and he just… he just never texted me.
——————————————————————————————
At +2:37
——————————————————————————————
A photo of Carlos Baltazar’s backpack exactly where it was found, about 75 yards away from his abandoned vehicle.
——————————————————————————————
At +2:16
——————————————————————————————
Nicole Comstock:
Deputies say Carlos’ car was found with some front-end damage on it. His niece says that must have happened sometime after she saw him on Sunday.
——————————————————————————————
Some media outlets have been reporting that Carlos’ abandoned car ( and backpack ) were found at the intersection of California Highway 18 and ‘Delta Avenue’… but it’s actually just ‘Delta Way’.
The intersection of California Highway 18 and Delta Way is here…
34.289680, -116.804696
This link brings up a ‘Google Map’ with a ‘RED Balloon’ showing right where Carlos’ abandoned car was found…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B017'22.9%22N+116%C2%B048'16.9%22W/@34.2896844,-116.8068847,722m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.28968!4d-116.804696
Carlos Alexander Baltazar,
You are in my thoughts and prayers
You are unalone
The guilt you expressed has happened to many of men and women on the YHF
It is WHY I stick around because I want to do my part in lessening Wildland Fire Fatalities
You can make a difference
Take that guilt and do the difficult right thing and tell your story in true form.
All agencies need someone to get THAT person. We understand. Your family may not GET what you went through yet it is obvious they love you.
🌌😶
You can reach me at the yarnell hill fire revelations blog
480 559 1971 for today and very low on TracFone minutes and not near pc until late tomorrow… babysitting this weekend
Also prayers to Sonny as you have had a hard week of loss…the loss of the mother of all your kids.
https://youtu.be/pKeCbsOWJ4M
Please the people who know who they are= you NEED to do the difficult right thing NOW
if you are watching the video right now above
the LIVE footage then you SEE her right now
You would not be doing just for her but for me and so many others right now who know that pain
by the way—Thank you Monica for your time on the stage
I hope you Chief Vicki C. are not allowed anywhere near this investigation as you and Dudley showed me your capabilities from the YHF-
Keep this lady as far away from the intel and data PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
**
** “MISSING HOT SHOT” FOUND DEAD ON THE EL DORADO FIRE
Southern California Air Operations initially reported that they were actively searching for a (quote) “MISSING HOT SHOT”
https://twitter.com/socalairops?lang=en
———————————————————————————————————-
SoCal Air Operations – September 18, 2020 – 12:30 AM
#ElDoradoFire *SEARCH AND RESCUE*
Law Enforcement and Fire crews are currently searching for a MISSING HOT SHOT
near Pinezanita. CHP and SBCoSD Copters are overhead assisting with the search.
Air Attack 51 is also overhead attempting to call the individuals cell phone.
———————————————————————————————————-
SoCal Air Operations – September 18, 2020 – 1:03 AM
#ElDoradoFire – THREAD – Search and Rescue:
Officials are still working on pinging the individuals cell phone.
Additionally Air Attack 51 has created a plan to have rotating helicopters up
in the air throughout the night assisting with the search efforts.
———————————————————————————————————–
The search for this “Missing Hotshot” begain sometime on Thursday, and it continued throughout the night and into Friday morning.
The U.S. Forest Service confirmed early Friday morning that the missing firefighter had been found and he was deceased.
A comment left on an article about the firefighter’s death appears to confirm that the deceased firefighter was a member of ‘Squad 1A’ on the “Crane Valley Hotshots”.
Wildfire Today
Article Title: A firefighter has died on the El Dorado Fire in Southern California
Author: Bill Gabbert
Published: September 18, 2020
h t t p s ://wildfiretoday.com/2020/09/18/a-firefighter-has-died-on-the-el-dorado-fire-in-southern-california/
Author Bill Gabbert allowed the following ‘comment’ to be posted on his article…
———————————————————————————————————–
September 18, 2020 at 1:47 pm, Robert Moreno said…
Good by my friend, I called you my son to this day… you and Cody were the best of A mod BBHS…. pleasure being your Captain 1 Alpha
———————————————————————————————————-
Robert Moreno has been the ‘Captain’ of ‘Squad 1 Alpha’ for the “Crane Valley Hotshots” since 2013.
There is still no more information available about the circumstances of this tragic death.
Sincere condolences go out to the firefighter’s entire family, and also to the entire “Crane Valley Hotshots”.
Correction ( ?? )
Deceased FF was possibly with “Big Bear Hotshots” and not “Crane Valley Hotshots”??
According to the official August, 2019 ‘Hotshot History” document at the Wildfire Lessons Learned Center, Robert Moreno was still the ‘Captain’ of ‘Squad 1 Alpha’ on the “Crane Valley Hotshots” as of that date. ( From 2013 to August of 2019 ).
In the comment he posted today, however, he says “A mod BBHS”.
“BBHS” seems to indicate he was referring to the “Big Bear Hotshots” ( and not “Crane Valley”? ).
Either way… sincere condolences to friends, family and co-workers.
More details need to emerge, of course.
How ( why? ) was he “off by himself”? and what caused his death?
Here is a photo of the “Big Bear Hotshots” working on the El Dorado fire…
https://laistassets.scprdev.org/i/b803734e1f66dcb5e3949f09cd1618dd/5f638945edff0a0008ef3b16-eight.jpg
Photo caption: Big Bear Hot Shots wait for the El Dorado Fire to drop to a roadway before going to work. (Courtesy San Bernardino National Forest)
No confirmation yet that the deceased Hotshot was from the “Big Bear” Hotshot crew… but there’s no doubt that BBHS was/is there working the El Dorado Fire.
Followup…
Well… as of a few hours ago… the “US Hotshots” public Facebook page is extending official condolences to the “Big Bear Hotshots”.
I guess that’s a confirmation that the fatality involved a member of the BBIHC…
https://www.facebook.com/ushotshots/posts/4389585421113070
From that public “US Hotshots” Facebook post…
————————————————————————-
USHotshots.com – Facebook
Friday – September 18, 2020 – 5:37 PM
To Big Bear IHC –
All of our thoughts and prayers are with you all. Words seem inadequate to express the sadness we all feel. Rest easy brother may the wind be at your back.
————————————————————————-
** UPDATE
The official Facebook page for Butte County Fires, Accidents, Crimes (BCFAC) is now reporting that the firefighter found dead at the El Dorado fire last Friday morning was…
Charles Edward Morton
Crew Boss for the Big Bear Hot Shots
https://www.facebook.com/groups/butte.county.fires.accidents.crimes/permalink/1247807638924371/
From that posting…
————————————————————————
9/20/2020: BCFAC: We regret to report the death of firefighter Charles Edward Morton and send sincere condolences to his family, friends and co-workers.
Charles died Thursday, 9/17/2020, while battling the Eldorado Fire in the San Bernardino National Forest.
Charles worked for the United States Forest Service as a Crew Boss for the Big Bear Hot Shots and will be fiercely missed.
The 22,439 Acres acre fire sparked by pyrotechnics at a gender reveal party has been burning for 15 days and was 59% contained as of the Saturday evening update.
———————————————————————
I have heard that this death was the result of a burn out.
I’m sure they have this locked down, but just FYI, what we need to see is the IAP (Incident Action Plan) which is the shift plan for the day of the incident.
And I know that all you already know this, but in spite of the very low body count, the principles and the standards that this case should be judged by are the same as the YHF. And I can’t think of a good reason why this death wasn’t a giant fuck up.
But that being said, I will reserve judgement on those involved, namely the deceased and everyone above him who had any role in this debacle.
I think we have valid reasons to expect more from our hotshot crew.
This could very well be just ANOTHER case of a botched backburn that ends up claiming life.
What is different about THIS case is that, because the death was on a fire that was supposedly started by that “gender reveal party”… the local San Bernadino County SHERIFF’s department is ( at the moment ) actually “in charge” of the investigation into the death of Big Bear Hotshot Charles Morton.
I’ll bet that is really making “U.S. Forestry” nervous, right about now.
Actual SHERIFF’s deputies and detectives interviewing FFs about what happened.
Yikes. That is “U.S. Forestry’s” worst nightmare.
REAL invesitigators actually trying to find out how/why a USFS firefighter died ( instead of the usual thrown-together group of in-house psuedo-investigators )
Here’s an article which proves that is what is happening right now…
The Palm Springs Desert Sun
Article Title: Firefighter killed in El Dorado Fire ID’d as Charles ‘Charlie’ Morton; sheriff investigating
By: Colin Atagi and Shad Powers
Published 1:49 p.m. PT Sept. 21, 2020
Updated 5:36 p.m. PT Sept. 22, 2020
https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/environment/wildfires/2020/09/21/el-dorado-fire-sheriffs-department-investigating-firefighters-death/5857221002/
From that article…
———————————————————–
The San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department is handling the investigation of how a firefighter died last week while battling the El Dorado Fire, which continues to burn in the San Bernardino National Forest for its third week.
The firefighter was Charles Morton, 39, the Big Bear Interagency Hotshot Squad boss, the San Bernardino National Forest said in a statement Monday night. He died while “engaged in fire suppression operations” late Thursday, the statement said.
The investigation is at its inception and it’s too early to say whether death-related charges could be recommended against a family suspected of igniting the fire with a pyrotechnic device during a Sept. 5 gender reveal gathering near Yucaipa, sheriff’s spokeswoman Jodi Miller said.
As the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department handles the firefighter’s death investigation, Cal Fire is investigating the cause of the El Dorado Fire.
Cal Fire Capt. Bennet Milloy on Monday reiterated it could take weeks for investigators to determine the exact cause of the fire, including whether the family would be held culpable for igniting the blaze.
“There is still a lot of work to be done,” he said.
———————————————————–
SIDENOTE: It’s been a bad year for the “Big Bear Hotshots”.
This is the SECOND Captain / Crew Boss they have lost to death in under a year.
Just about 11 months ago, on November 3 of 2019, Big Bear Hotshot Crew Boss “Jimmy Butler” died.
The circumstances surrounding Big Bear Hotshot Captain Jimmy Butler’s death remained a mystery for two weeks, until it was announced on November 18, 2019 ( in a post on the public Eric Marsh Wildland Firefighter Foundation Facebook page ) that Butler took his own life.
Followup…
Here is another article explaining that Charles Morton’s death is being fully “investigated” by the San Bernandino County Sheriff’s office… and not just the usual USFS thrown-together CRaP team.
.Unlike other fireline fatalities… THIS time the local District Attorney needs to know EXACTLY what happened in order to determine if charges should be brought against those responsible for starting the fire.
If there was any culpable negligence involved in the fireline death of Morton, the DA won’t be able to add any charges related to his death to whatever other charges might be brought against whoever originally started the fire.
NBC News – Palm Springs
Article Title: Investigation Underway on Death of Firefighter Killed on El Dorado Fire as Community Mourns
Pbulished: September 22, 2020 5:57 PM – By: Kitty Alvarado
https://nbcpalmsprings.com/2020/09/22/investigation-underway-on-death-of-firefighter-killed-on-el-dorado-fire-as-community-mourns/
From that article…
——————————————————
Big Bear Hotshot ( Charles ) Morton was killed fighting the El Dorado Fire in Yucaipa.
…an investigation into his death is underway.
Jodi Miller, the public information officer with the San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department confirms their special investigations unit is looking into the death, “When the firefighter sadly lost his life fighting the fire, my department now became involved.
It’s a multi pronged investigation,
Cal Fire is looking into the cause ( of the fire ) and the San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department is focusing on the tragedy. ( Morton’s death )
“Detectives responded to the scene and are now conducting a death investigation,” says Miller.
The fire is still burning out of control, so far it’s burned over 22,500 acres, 16 homes and structures have been damaged or destroyed and 13 people including firefighters have been hurt. The community is outraged that now a firefighter was killed over a gender reveal stunt gone wrong.
“I think that’s just horrible, what a waste I mean, a gender reveal? Come on,” says Gary Hatfield, a resident of Mountain Home Village.
And many are asking why those responsible haven’t been arrested?
Miller says the process is complicated, “There’s a lot of work that goes into these types of investigations and of course a thorough investigation is imperative and that does take some time for that to happen,” she says adding the community can rest assured knowing they will release information as quickly as they can but they cannot rush the investigation.
Jason Anderson, the San Bernardino District Attorney, says their office has been receiving a lot of questions since the fire started, “We are sensitive to the concerns that people have in regards to what next steps may occur in this particular case,” adding that he’s receiving daily briefings from prosecutors who’ve been on the scene.
But Anderson says they cannot make a determination yet, “Because of its scale, because of the seriousness we have to wait until all the investigation is done before we can make any determination about what we do going forward.”
——————————————————–
Here is a response I just made to an email and it is what I think.
“The way those articles said people are calling their office and demanding to know why arrests haven’t been made, I don’t see how they can avoid charging them.
Plus…times have changed. People no longer trust or believe in the government even as much as they did in 2013.
And this is California and not backwards Arizona. I might be wrong, but I think this thing will go to the mattresses and the USFS is finally going to get their head handed to them…I hope!“
Your hopes above are about to be shown. Heavily working it Gary.
Oh…and one more thing. Even though it will be very painful to assign blame to the deceased in this case should it be justified in the final analysis, just as it was in the case with the GMIHC, it won’t be about the last hotshot death, it will be about doing everything I can to try and help prevent the next one.
And just FYI. While in the slow and often painful process of writing the next chapter in what will be without a doubt, the greatest book ever written about wildland firefighters, my thinking has now matured to the point I am finally able to assign blame for that unbelievable tragic incident to the crew boss at the time of their deaths which was Jesse Steed and not just Division Alpha Eric Marsh.
I still however, refuse to assign any blame below Captain Steeds level because the hotshot culture, tradition and best practices demand that hotshots follow the orders of their crew boss even though dissent is not only allowed, but it is expected.
I believe there are good reasons for reasonable people to disagree on this specific point, but that is my position because given the hundreds of thousands of decisions made by hotshot crew bosses since hotshot crews were first created, only three of those decisions in history have resulted in fatally disastrous results.
And given those statistics, the most prudent thing to do is to follow a hotshot crew bosses orders and so I hold the crew below Acting Crew Boss Steed blameless and my book will reflect that opinion.
Okay, just one more. I have always held the position that given the fact that not only can Walmart track a box of frozen fish across the country, they can verify the temperature it was kept at, so I think it is a no-brainer that our major resources on wildfires must be equipped with GPS locator devices.
The fact that this deceased hotshot had to be searched for when he could have been only injured and not deceased is UNACCEPTABLE!
The only thing the 800 pound Mountain Gorilla 🦍 that is the USFS FIRE organization hates more than re-burns is change.
But…the Luddites running that organization must get their act together and equip all major resources such as hotshot crew members, engines and dozers with cheap, readily available and reliable GPS locator beacons NOW!
Because as goes the USFS, so goes all wildland firefighting agencies since they simply state that in order for your resources to be assigned to our fires, you must follow our policies just as they did after the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster.
And that is why everyone started carrying fire shelters and wearing fire resistant pants beginning in the fire season of 1977.
** POST TO FORUM SEPTEMBER 24, 2020
Reply to Gary Olson post on September 23, 2020 at 12:51 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I have always held the position that
>> given the fact that not only can
>> Walmart track a box of frozen fish
>> across the country, they can verify the
>> temperature it was kept at, so
>> I think it is a no-brainer that our
>> major resources on wildfires must
>> be equipped with GPS locator devices.
>>
>> The fact that this deceased hotshot
>> had to be searched for when he could
>> have been only injured and not
>> deceased is UNACCEPTABLE!
Indeed. It’s the year 2020, fer chrissakes.
News outlets in California first started reporting that a ‘Hotshot firefighter’ was ‘missing’ at the El Dorado fire around 8:30 PM on Thursday night, September 17, 2020, when it became public knowledge that ‘helicopters’ were in the air searching for him.
At 12:30 AM Friday morning, ( and again at 1:00 AM ) Souther California Air Operations posted a series of tweets confirming the ‘search’ and that ‘Air Operations’ over the fire were trying to ‘ping’ the missing hotshot’s cellphone in order to try and locate him.
It was then ‘confirmed’ ( by USFS officials on the San Bernadino Forest ) at around 4:00 AM that a ‘body had been found’, and it was the missing hotshot.
It would have taken about 15-30 minutes from the time fire personnel on the ground realized he was ‘missing’ to get choppers in the air… so that probably pushed the moment when they realized they needed to do that back to about 8:00 PM on Thursday night.
SoCal AIR OPS tweeted they were still looking for him around 1:00 AM Friday.
So that means his body could only have been actually ‘found’ sometime between 1:00 AM and 4:00 AM, when it was confirmed by USFS officials.
That means they were looking for him
( unsuccessfully ) for anywhere
between 5 to 8 HOURS.
If he didn’t lose his life right away to whatever circumstances happened, and only died because he didn’t get ANY medical attention for 5 to 8 HOURS… then yea… that’s almost criminal.
Same still goes for the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
It has never really been confirmed whether or not all 19 GM Hotshots actually died immediately during the burnover. It is still possible that maybe a few of them died of their injuries sometime during the 2 hours it took to even FIND them, even though they were only 640 yards west of the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Here’s an article that confirms when the choppers were first in the air on Thursday evening at the El Dorado fire, and when USFS was first confirming that the body had been found at 4:00 AM on Friday morning…
Victor Valley News Group (VVNG) – San Bernadino, California
Article Title: Missing firefighter battling El Dorado Fire has been found dead
Published: September 18, 2020
https://www.vvng.com/missing-firefighter-battling-el-dorado-fire-has-been-found-dead/
———————————————–
SAN BERNARDINO, Calif. (VVNG.com) — A firefighter assigned to the El Dorado Fire was found dead after he was initially reported missing Thursday night.
At about 8:30 PM, on September 17, 2020, helicopters from the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s and California Highway Patrol flew over the Barton Flats area searching for the missing Hotshot firefighter.
At about 4:00 AM USDA Forest Service officials on the San Bernardino National Forest confirmed the death and said the name is being withheld pending notification of next of kin.
Officials said the cause is under investigation and more details would be made available as they are confirmed.
——————————————-
WOW! That’s all I can think of to say, WOW! Thank you for that work, if that doesn’t prove the point for the USFS, nothing will.
I was originally basing my argument after the search for the GMIHC, which I thought should have been enough for those who are responsible for our most precious and irreplaceable resources, our wildland firefighters, but apparently not, on the case of the missing Green Beret after they were ambushed in Niger a few years ago and four were killed.
Anyway, they found one of them several miles from the original ambush site by his locator beacon. And I tried to make my point here several years ago using that situation for an example.
But thanks to your work, we now have a much better example that doesn’t require any retrofitting to a WF situation. It hits right we’re we live!
Almost criminal is right. They don’t need years off study by NWCG or MEDC committees, they just need to get some GPS locator beacons before the next fire season starts. Just ask Walmart how they track their frozen fish, I’m pretty sure they would be happy to help. It would be good OR fir them.
My God, what more do they need? It’s now been 7 years since the AZ DPS helicopter with our hero, Eric Tarr (sp?) launched on the YHF to search in the blind for an entire missing hotshot crew that they knew had just been burned over and THEY have done NOTHING!
https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana
George Santayana,
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.
Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it.
Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them.
Those who do not know history’s mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
Take your pick, because all of them apply to USFS FIRE.
Oh…and one more thing. Another point that I made many years ago now, is that the GPS locator beacons I believe, would have real value for fire team overhead to track resources on fires who aren’t dead or dying.
I think the beacons would have valuable application fir what I call Plans, Transportation, and the Operations sections I think could all make good use of knowing exactly where all major resources are on every fire at any given time.
I think GPS locator beacons on a no-brainer.
Historical Footnote,
During those seven years Shawna Legarza came and went as the USFS Director of fire and now she has her dream retirement job back in Durango. She could have done something other than perpetuate the Battlement Creek Fire cover up and go to Australia for an expensive photo op, but she didn’t.
HAL 9000,
There have been so many contributions to this thread 🧵 by so many people for so many years, it is impossible to remember most of them. Luckily, they are stored here for as long as JD supports our efforts and his bold and next generation crowd sourced citizens investigation of what has now been for years about so much more than just the unprecedented, shocking, tragic, and totally catastrophic Yarnell Hill Fire deaths of the Granite Mountain IHC.
And in particular, it would have impossible for me to pinpoint what I consider to be the single greatest contribution you have made to this effort out of the hundreds of astute observations and to my mind, your unnatural ability to calculate the incalculable ever since you first began visiting our planet from your home star system, Which given our history as a planet with Sirius that is a possibility, but I’m betting on the Seven Sisters Star Cluster which is more commonly called the Pleiades, but forgive I digress once again.
I don’t really care where you are from because of the innumerable contributions you gave made here to this effort. But I can now decide what I think it your single greatest contribution because I believe it is your most recent one. The one that told us in very stark terms, that no one should be able to ignore or cover up, just how bad this latest hotshot death on the El Dorado Fire Disaster and the aftermath really was.
Which is really a big wind up in order to finally make my point I know, but I can’t get over your latest contribution that calculated just how long Big Bear IHC Squad Boss Charles Morton was unaccounted for and missing in action while so many people frantically searched for him.
It is just a stunning, tragic and completely unacceptable series of facts and I can’t thank you enough for putting it into words and numbers so everyone can understand just how catastrophic his death really was. And then to make what was already an unbelievably appalling incident so much worse, his body laid out there for so long all alone. And God forbid he was just injured and died from from neglect before he was finally located.
This is just…I really am out of words to describe just how horrible this incident really and truly was, but thank you again for what you did to make it just a little bit better by letting us know just how bad we failed Charles Morton when he needed us the most as a wildland firefighting culture and community.
I am so sad, but I really would like for “them” to wake the @#$& up and get with the program in order to make some long overdue changes so that this never happens again. Or at least if it does, it will be in spite of out best efforts rather than our indifference and neglect.
Okay, I’m going back to writing my book because the damn thing isn’t going to write itself.
Clarification,
The rationalization that I have used repeatedly for many years now is that GMIHC Crew Boss Marsh never ceded control of the crew to Acting Crew Boss Steed.
Furthermore, I have often written that I believe the primary reason Steed ultimately followed Marsh’s orders after first refusing to do so three times wasn’t because of his Marine Corp training and experience, it was because he feared reprisals from the erratic, domineering, deeply insecure and unstable Marsh who had demonstrated prior bad decisions with good outcomes for years because Marsh had done the very same thing to his assistant in the past.
In the end, I think it was Steed’s fear of losing his children’s health insurance and his career more than anything else and although I understand and sympathize with that reasoning having faced it myself in retaliation from the BLM several times myself, I did the right thing and flushed my career and so I feel qualified to judge Steed accordingly.
And just as a reminder, I made the grade of a GS-13 in the first half of my career, but I was unable to make the final step (within my job series) to a GS-14 in the last half of my career because I went to the USDI Office Of Inspector General with a Whistleblower compliant regarding illegal activities by top BLM managers and I have the files to prove it just in case anyone doubts what I am writing.
Of course they also tried to terminate my employment but I dodged that bullet, a few times! 😂 Hahaha, BLM MOTHERFUCKERS!,,
🍆
Gary, if Joy still has the photos of a sign FS put up at Yarnell titled What it Takes To Be a Wild Land Fire Fighter–strictly obeying orders on a daily basis was part of it. Any young fellow/gal haven read that sign would realize that they were in a job much like the Military–your job if you do not obey–court martial in the military–but fired if you do not follow commands in the Wild Land Fire fighting business and just as the Military–keep your mouth shut if there is a screw up by the bosses running the show.
The old school way was paper IAPs…but now it’s digital but it will be exposed soon ..all incidents that lacked the normal 24 and 72 he reports that weeks later lack… well people watch and people document…God Bless those loser leaders…your times are numbered…
Okay Joy, I’m standing by to stand by and I’m all 👂 👂 whenever you are prepared to share.
Joy–I did wonder if you ever found that order of restriction document for the Yarnell Area that was set aside by FS order on a specific area as I remember a half section covering an area adjoining the Helms Ranch that included most of the death canyon up to the two track and including the GMHS site of demise.
There has always been on my mind was that set aside like that for a deliberate controlled burn. When viewing the actions of the lethargic actions toward fighting that fire, including Yarnell standing down and the Prison Crew held back on Friday Night under the excuse that they could get snake bite I had wondered if it indeed were allowed to advance on grounds that the area was intended for a control burn. I know redaction of that document seemed some suspicious to me.
But also, as we watched the actions of the GMHS crew that were not doing anything for some time, if you remember I had said I think it is because they have a controlled burn going on. And if you look at the actual work that GMHS crew did–I am not a wild land fire fighter, but in my estimation if that was all that a 20 man crew could do, then I would say they were more or less doing very little.
Then you had the Colonel looking at satellite photos saying that the square effect and the temperature effects smelled of a burn–those Satellite photos as I understand were also redacted, although I believe the Colonel kept copies before the redactions. I do not know if it is possible to read Satellite photos and tell the difference in an intentional burn vs. a natural fire, however, the Colonel mentioned a natural fire does not have the perfect kilometer square heat pattern as seen in the Yarnell Fire and in intentional control burn situations.
If indeed it were a lightening strike on a clear day, then it was lightening some miles from a storm system which can happen–I think even 12 or maybe more miles away from clouds. But with drones now a days doing lightening strikes I had to wonder if it were some drone system to get things going.
These days all angles ought to be checked–there are just too many liars in high places doing things that they believe the public has no right to know about.
And Gary is lucky he did not get 10 years in prison for telling the truth. Look at Julian Assange-truth sayers and whistle blowers are a hated bunch by those in contol of government functions. They can not handle the truth, and when facts are out they have such enormous wealth and power that they are beyond the laws of the land and come at people that reveal their crimes with all the political animosity they can.
But in the end the truth matters and burns them or they burn in Hell–maybe their own. There is a good Brit song out –I will have lots of company in Hell–they sure will.
Saliente
Actually that area map showing the restricted area and signed document went just beyond the two track–I think to the top of the Weavers –you likely could draw the area on the map and I remember the date of the document being June 16, 2013–we remembered that because when that lady showed it to you on the internet, then you showed me and we had at that time wondered if it were meant to be a controlled burn area. No one was to be allowed into that area as I remember and it had the highest possible extreme fire danger classification.
But I can see how these people would redact that type document–especially after 19 are killed due to that fire–don’t you think the coming out of the closet party that killed Morton wish they could redact their involvement in causing that fire?
Here is the problem with putting GPS units on crews–When the bosses do shit like Marsh did they will be exposed for their negligence crimes. When the crews exact position and times are recorded then there can be no cover up like we saw at Yarnell. Can you imagine it will show everyone’s position, even their motions that can be interpreted–such as are they spreading fire with their drip torch, digging trench in a line or are they just leaning against their truck or on a shovel would be known by the GPS movements. It might be an investigative tool that the Honcho’s with the Pasones do not want available–and even they could be tracked.
There should be privacy for citizens, but government workers ought to have one at all times when on the job. We want to know if they are working or in a whore house on tax payer dollars like some do in Congress.
Pansones–correct spelling–Bill Clinton got caught without a GPS–26 times on the Child Trafficer’s aeroplane because Epstein had purposely had records maintained of all who took the rides with the underage girls aboard.
link to the LIVE Memorial for squad boss Charlie Morton who died in El Dorado Fire
Get that Chief Vicki C. off that stage
Too many know on this fire what happened lady-
step down- you make me ill for the manners on YHF still
VOMITING
https://youtu.be/pKeCbsOWJ4M
i am unable to view due to bandwidth
hope one of you can
it is LIVE right now
you won’t get the same chance like you all pulled on YHF…it was and will always be intolerable and will make sure this is pushed to the front faster than the YHF onion layer has happened…
https://youtu.be/iKO9KQf_BgQ
Angela Scott talks with Deborah Pfingston, mother of fallen Hotshots Firefighter Andrew Ashcraft.
My Lost Brothers: The Untold Story by the Yarnell Hill Fire’s …
Book by Brendan McDonough and Stephan Talty
why is it they no longer call it that above and it is now called GRANITE MOUNTAIN???
Amazon is currently listing ( and selling ) Brendan’s book under BOTH titles.
The ‘reprint’ with the new title of just “Granite Mountain” probably happened after the movie came out in an effort to “tie: the book to the fillum and sell more copies.
If the publisher thought they could get away with renaming it “The Book By the Guy That Miles Teller Played in Only The Brave”…. they probably would have tried that as well.
Donut out in the public again:
https://youtu.be/hHfdwOBJcbs
Granite Mountain Hotshots – Brendan McDonough | Mighty Oaks Show 081
1,328 views•Premiered Aug 28, 2020
Mighty Oaks Warrior Programs
2.9K subscribers
Jeremy Stalnecker sits down with the surviving member of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, Brendan McDonough, to discuss his story and how he has been able to move forward in life.
it is almost one hour
it is nauseating and for me for what I know—so sad.
wtktt-
didn’t Donut say it was Sciacca who got his start and now it is is other young college kid???
huh
the judge said that Donut????
come on….
I am sorry,…this is getting bad. What is this kid gonna do when the rest is public???
come on Donut…
Good talker, Donut?
Come on…you said it better right after
BULLSHITTER!
come on, man.
How much did Mighty Oaks Warrior Programs pay for this interview?
I want to buy me an interview with you Donut since you won’t just meet up with the other person freely who was on the Weavers with you on June 30th, 2013 and you opt this path….
shaking my head
First thought is WTF is with the camera, second thought, is he one drugs?
Bill, being Forensic Weather fella had me do a vlog once
It appears he is reading off something trying not to
He changed areas slightly but noticeable
Is he on drugs?
He runs Hold Fast Recovery as I run Hold Fat Recovery 🙂
his place:
https://holdfastrecovery.com/
my spot:
One foot in front of the other or think of the Hollies- He Ain’t Heavy, He’s My Brother…I ain’t heavy…I am your brother 😉
I say get out and move and if not be fat!
It is what it is…
I need a nap but hey Bill I posted more here:
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/post/page-7-these-are-my-city-of-prescott-public-records-requests-descending-order-finish-dp-prr
you want MORE of Donut:
https://youtu.be/4-pkxBrqJdQ
Bill,
Amen.
you want MORE of Donut:
https://youtu.be/4-pkxBrqJdQ
Bill,
you want MORE of Donut:
https://youtu.be/4-pkxBrqJdQ
You are killing me Joy. 🙂
Joy, two different interviews, yet both are the same,word for word. And he says the crew was asked to come off the mountain both times.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on September 18, 2020 at 2:58 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> Donut out in the public again:
>>
>> https://youtu.be/hHfdwOBJcbs
>>
>> Granite Mountain Hotshots – Brendan McDonough | Mighty Oaks Show 081
>> 1,328 views – Premiered Aug 28, 2020
>> Mighty Oaks Warrior Programs
>> 2.9K subscribers
>> Jeremy Stalnecker sits down with the surviving member of the Granite
>> Mountain Hotshots, Brendan McDonough, to discuss his story and how
>> he has been able to move forward in life.
Below is a verbatim transcript of Brendan’s ( newest ) account of what happened from the point where he realized he needed to evacuate his lookout position to the point where he heard Eric Marsh’s last clear radio transmission ( at 4:39 PM ) about GM needing to deploy their shelters.
One of the NEWEST things about THIS version is that Brendan is now saying, unequivocally, that the reason Granite Mountain left the black is simply because they were ASKED to, and that is all there is to know.
Brendan now says…
“My crew is asked, at that point, during that point in time, if they could get back to the town to help us fight this fire… and so they’re moving down their escape route now.”
No more BS in there about Eric Marsh first saying they were going to stay in the black, or anything like that.
Nope.
Now it’s just… “My crew was asked to come to town… so they came.”
Period. End of story.
OPS1 Todd Abel has always denied ever “asking” GM to leave the black.
OPS2 Paul Musser testified that he DID, in fact, call GM on the radio to inquire about their “availability”, but that he never aksed them ( or TOLD them ) to do anything at all.
Here is the full transcript from Brendan’s most recent ( August 28, 2020 ) “storytelling” session…
+31:05
——————————————————————————————
I turn my back on this fire for 10 seconds… and I turn back around and I… I look out and I see this fire is starting to progress in the direction that the wind had said it was going to, but it’s early.
It’s earlier than what was predicted, and so my captain ( Jesse Steed ) calls down and he says “Hey, you know, I think it’s time for you to get outta there”, and I’m like “I’m thinkin’ the same thing”,
I’m puttin’ my stuff in my pack… and so I start hiking out to the main road and I’m thinkin’ about calling that superintendent ( Blue Ridge Hotshots superintendent Brian Frisby ) for the ride. I’m like “I need a ride. We had to get our vehicles outta here”, and this fire picks up, and it’s movin’ in a completely different direction than what was planned originally, and for a split second I go “I can’t put this dude’s life at risk”. Ya know… “I’ll make it outta here. I’ll figure it out”… and he pulls up in this UTV… and he’s like “GET IN!… we gotta move your buggies!”… and so I threw all my bag in… I mean… just like that ( Brendan snaps his fingers )… and this fire’s startin’ to come up on the road we had to get out of… and… uh… he says “Hey, radio your superintendent and let him know what’s goin’ on”… and I said “Hey, you’ve been doin’ this for, you know, ten times as long as I have. Here’s the radio. Go ahead and
communicate with him”.
So he chats with him.
We hop into the buggies.
We get ’em into town.
The crew is still up on the hill… and this fire’s kinda movin’.
We haven’t lost any homes at this point in time.
So we get into town and we get called to the north end, ‘cus that’s where it’s threatening the most. So now I’m with this other hotshot crew ( Blue Ridge Hotshots ).
My crew is up on the mountain and they’re comin’ up with a game plan of what’s next… and… uh… as we’re going to the north end of town… we get in… we’re tryin’ to cut in some line to potentially do a burn or to try and save these homes… stop this fire from moving south, now, into this community.
And as we’re gettin’ ready to… we start hiking out and I’d say within a few minutes of our hike we start getting embers that are pretty big that are dropping in our area and we’re seeing them fly over our heads… south. And so the superintendent’s like “Hey, we gotta pull outta here.”
We pull out. Some other engines pull outta there.
My crew is asked, at that point, during that point in time, if they could get back to the town to help us fight this fire… and so they’re moving down their escape route now.
And we’re back in town and this storm settles in and there’s another storm behind it coming from north to south… and it brings this intense wind.
The crew is moving down their escape route. They’re gonna get back in town.
We’re sitting town.
And now… evacuations had been going on… we’re starting to lose homes, and that’s not what you want, right?, in a wildfire scenario? You know, we’re out there to protect lives, property, preserve the forest.
And… you know… we start… everyone’s evacuated, homes are burning, my crew is on the way out… and this weather event said it would be an hour before it hits the north end, and it’s happened within, you know,five / ten minutes.
And as I’m watching this fire burn, I can see and feel kinda anticipation of like “Where’s the crew at? Where’s the crew at?”… and this fire’s moving through the town and everyone thinks that they’re already in place… in a safe place… and we hear over the radio that they’re getting ready for a deployment site… to deploy their fire shelters.
And I’m like “What’s goin’ on?”
Like… they’re already… they’re already in-route to their safety zone and this fire… what it was supposed to do in an hour just burned through the town within five to ten minutes.
And I’m thinking to myself, like… “No way. This can’t be happening”.
And at that point in time the whole fire… you know… any operations outside of saving lives is… is ceased and, you know, now they’re … now we’re focused on getting to them and getting them as safe as possible.
And I’m hearing over the radio they’re tryin’ to call in a helicopter to drop water. They can’t get the location… uhm… and I hear the last radio conversation
of “We’re gettin’ in our shelters… and I’ll give you a call when we’re settled in.”
——————————————————————————————-
Were they asked Donut or was it told to come down to Yarnell? Seems like told since there was an argument going on between Marsh and Steed–Steed reluctant because he knew the potential disaster of doing a tight wire act on a loose wire with no safety net below. And where do we call a freaking manzinata overgrowth and entanglement that even Hot Shot Crews and Bears can not get through a forest. It only shows that a simple cowboy knows the difference between his ass and a hole in the ground–you are one poor example of a representative that should be out there informing the public about the truth of what happened at Yarnell. I would go to Joy Collura for a better understanding of the conditions of that area from her 20 years hiking the area and now with her certifications and hundreds of hikes with men that have had years, not months of experience on wild fires, her hundreds of hours discussing the fire with knowledgeable experienced wild land fire fighters, and scores of FOIA reports she has obtained and studied–indeed she ought to be the one giving the talks to the Public.
Joy would refer Donut to speak with the likes of Dr. Ted Putnam, RTS, Gary Olsen, John Daugherty, WTKTT,Woodsman, the head of the Blue Ridge Crew, Brian Fisby, and even cowboy Rick McKensie who could help him get his story straight and even educate him on the difference in a forest and a brush patch. Half truths out of his mouth do little to help the public understand how this tragedy was a mismanagement job that the culprits responsible for killing the GMHS crew never could man up to accept responsibility and address the reasons the men were recklessly and needlessly “asked” or was it ordered in a you must strictly obey orders creed as written on their board at Yarnell to be a wild land Hot Shot fighter They chose to award themselves after the fire and Brandon became part of the cover up. . Brandon is so full of shit worse than a Christmas Turkey–but this world is about money and his agent has to be a good one in that regard. Bullshit overrides truth when it comes to making money these days despite the process of hiding the truth endangers the lives of future wild land fighters. Shame I say on Brandon and all those fostering a lie.
Perhaps Joy and the men and women who know the facts will come forward and the truth of the killing of the Yarnell Wild Land Fire Fighting Heroes will be presented. I do know there are some people doing a documentary to refute the lies–that is the one I will want to view–it will include some Heavies in the Wild Land Fire Fighting occupations whose years of experience in investigations of deaths of wild land fire fighers as well and decades of experience, not months of Brandons gibberish, will speak about the real reasons for those deaths and set the records straight.
I am reminded that Gary Olsen is writing his book–Consider he has retired as a wild land fire fighting Crew Manager, he has been a top Investigator as well, and with years of experience will have a chapter on the Yarnell Incident. You will find truth there if you are tired of the Brandon Charade.
I did not bother to click on the You Tube talks by Brandon or any of his crap. I just did not see it worth the waste of my time.
Saliente–may the Irish Gods favor your good travels.
Joy, do you still have photos of that Yarnell sign entitled What It Takes To Be A Wild Land Firefigher. If you do, the world would appreciate a look at that because I think they have since removed the sign. Did you give one to the persons making the documentary to refute the BS about God needing or having plans for the GMHS playing harp or whatever. Six Billion people around and God has to fuck up the lives of 19 Firefighters with families to raise? I think you have a phony God if he is that heartless and stupid.
Be sure to include that photo–it clears up any fictitious theory that people are asked to do things in a hot shot crew. It was orders from headquarters and no polite ask deal. Everyone of those bosses in Yarnell knew they had ordered those men to head to the Boulder Ranch–they were willing to risk those lives despite their knowledge that you do not drop off in a box canyon with no escape to a safety zone in the damndess dense manzinita you could find in that area. But either Donut is a liar that they did not “ask” or else what WTKTT points out makes Abel and Musser liars>
OPS1 Todd Abel has always denied ever “asking” GM to leave the black.
OPS2 Paul Musser testified that he DID, in fact, call GM on the radio to inquire about their “availability”, but that he never aksed them ( or TOLD them ) to do anything at all.
OPS1 Todd Abel has always denied ever “asking” GM to leave the black.
OPS2 Paul Musser testified that he DID, in fact, call GM on the radio to inquire about their “availability”, but that he never aksed them ( or TOLD them ) to do anything at all.
I have to believe Musser did order the men down and Donut is now telling it. How did Donut know this asking thing unless he heard it on the radio since he was privy to the talks? If indeed Musser even asked those men to go into a trap with that fire and the knowledge all had, even Donut that the wind was due to reverse at any moment then I would want to know why he has any job at all as a manager of the lives of men in dangerous fire fighting situations.
This is where both Donut and Musser along with Abel should be brought to deposition under oath. The deaths of 19 men is no small matter as it has been treated. This event of historic proportions should have every detail of truth brought out to satisfy a proper investigation–most significantly because future wild land lives hang in the balance as well.
Thanks to Joy and WTKTT, both who has extreme talent in bringing forth facts and helping people understand them.
Saliente and may the kind Gods of the Irish be with you.
Which would make Donut’s statement true–they were not asked to do anything, they were flat out ordered.
The reason I had not mentioned who is doing the documentary is because I was asked to keep it confidential. However, I will ask that names be put out because at this time I believe a lot of people would contact the persons behind the documentary to give more of the true story of the events that caused the deaths of the GMHS crew. Howerver, if the parties involved in the true documentary still want to remain anonymous, then you will have to wait to get that information. So if you have info to pass along, I would suggest Joy as the best avenue to get it posted to the documentary. Joy has always been willing to work with people quietly and anonymously to preserve their jobs and not have the assholes that restrict free speech come down on their heads with a club. But if you remain anonymous she will verify the information before passing it on.
Thanks to all that have contributed toward the truth. Your work despite those that have objected and caused road blocks are of highest importance in this death event. Those lives were of the highest value and demand only truth.
Saliente
Saliente
Some may think us brutal because we will not stand for false presentation. In real life had someone that was outside the cronies system caused those deaths, you can be sure they would be prosecuted to the fullest and rightfully in the type of circumstances where 17 lives were deliberately risked with full knowledge that a hot shot crew attempting to get in front of a mega fire just to protect structures is insane.
They were challenged with attempting to work their crew through the densest of manzanita choking up that box canyon, they were ordered into a chimney canyon with the wild fire at a lower elevation, the wind warnings had told them at any moment the wind would reverse the fire and send it at a high velocity right at them, they knew that manzanita once it dehydrates as that had been for 10 years burns at an alarming rate and extreme temperatures above even 1500 F, they did not under stand that bounders near by might have been a safety zone so they had no escape route or safety zone to go to and instead piled more mazanita around themselves to make things even worse.
The only reason we were told that there were no communications for was it 30 minutes was because those responsible for ordering these young wild land fire fighters did not want to be prosecuted or man up to how they really caused the deaths of these men.
Now you can say these are my opinions, but with all the time I have been watching and listening to not only the best wild land death investigators, but champion real live retired wild land fire crew managers who generally agree. Joy has put out sufficient FOIA evidence, there has been ample testimony and I was there right on the spot those men went down. For the rest of the story you can go to Joy Collura, her site and her testimony are extremely valuable and she also was at that spot on the two track where those men were ordered off the mountain to their deaths.
Oh, and I did post here earlier the death threats from emails sent by one David Kelly or his moniker Don O or B or whatever alias he uses. Indeed if he is the Marine, CIA and Viet Nam killer and so forth he uses come choice words of how I would die if he shows up. I would likely be an easy mark for this guy–but there are others more important on his list I should think. Anyway I do fear for my life and intend to attempt to hang around a few more days, weeks and maybe even years, the Irish Gods be willing and Trump doesn’t get us into a nuclear war with China.
Saliente and I wish that fellow health as long as he stay out of my yard.
The Yarnell Charade is but a symptom of the dissolution of free speech and truth in media. You know that Joy will witness the argument with authortity about the rights of Media to investigate and reveal to the public the truth and actual facts of Yarnell. Right at the outset I was threatened with jail because I saw the infringement of the rights of Media to cover an event that the world was entitled to know about. There were many in Yarnell that said I was wrong, that Media should be kept out. They and I had to take a green card in our windows just to get to our property in a practice lock down and martial law situation. Freedom of press, and freedom of rights to travel unheeded by government were infringed greatly–yet the people are so acclimated to give up freedoms that will never be returned for some promise of safety.
If you have not followed the long story of Julian Assange, hero Journalists and resident of Australia being persecuted you can not understand the oppression of truth. We have no right in this country to be prosecuting and persecuting a Journalist from Australia–those we can prosecute would be the Washington Post and the New York Times who printed the articles revealing the lies to get us into the Iraq War. But the Clintons, et al, are out to throttle truth and the English Judge is a friend of folly as are so many here in this country. Australia is in bed with the Corporate American Tyrants as well and surprisingly you see the English and Australians following like little puppy dogs behind MaMa dog. They should be protecting that Journalists and protesting his persecution–but they are in cahoots debasing true Journalism. So Yarnellites that accept the trampling of your god given constitutional rights class with the liars that managed the Yarnell incident that burned the town and covered up any truth about the demise of the GMHS crew.
Rights of the people are self evident-they are constantly infringed these days–a danger much like dropping off in a brush canyon when a fire is going to come at your–once your rights or life are taken away there is no going back.
There are news sources that are not making a big deal out of a dead Judge. They have all been bought by the Corporate system these days and I do suspect the common man will not be much invited to the funeral–but the elite would like you to do some obeisance.
I had an awful forboding that day–Joy will tell you I had said they look like they were on a death march. I told her that the copters were hauling out body bags–and to be truthful I thought they really could have been but were empty bladder bags –I have the same foreboding for the people of this country and I do believe this imperialistic domineering empire we call democracy had devolved into demon cracy where the very wealthy have though their military industial complex robbed the poor and middle classes and especially the working stiff. They continue to enrich themselves laying aside by the great majority of C0ngress on both sides another record breaking amount of above 470 billion that they will not be denied. There is no objection from Trump as he plays the tune of bringing home the fellows from all the excessive 800 foreign military bases we have stationed around the globe. He says Congress is holding him back, yet he is a Commander in Chief that does not make an audible protest for the hindrance or for the excessive spending while America is burning at home and people are destitute. If the covid continues which seems to be the plan this country will be in the streets while the Military complex will be in great shape.
The cold war is now a guarantee so those profits and costs to the taxpayer remain high. The prospects of a major war breaking our are extremely high–almost a given at this point with the actions being taken against China, Iran and Venezuela. And you have two options for a president, both war mongering types that have no reluctance to mayhem. Trump has blood on his hands and Biden is watering at the mouth to do the same. It is called making America Great Again at a time when this country needs to look at the war crimes our Presidents have perpetrated to appease and enrich the war industries and themselves at the expense of the taxpayer with the added cost of a blood bath of millions of lives of the poor in foreign countries and our own young veterans. All of this done against a handful of terrorists in the beginning that have now multiplied as we invaded their country and killed their people.
Go watch some of the outside news sources–one thing Trump says is true–Fake Media is the main media.
We can be a strong nation without the violence.
I did the right thing and reported my death threats to the FBI. I see the FBI as the last bastion for the people–they are not a political enforcement therefore not influenced by Corporate interests and big money–at least that is my take. When you see Mike Pompeo, former CIA director appointed by Trump to the high office of Secretary of state we know that side of the law is influenced by Corporate interests–especially those where they operate in foreign lands to remove dictators not appeasing the Political interests of the corporate military complex we now have in charge of the government.
It is also my hope if they do take interest in death threats by email that they will also take interest in the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew and how and why the actual facts of their deaths had been covered up by the State of Arizona and some officials in the FS and even the lower Judicial courts or Arizona.
Now that Joy has revealed so many documents showing a different truth to those deaths, the evidence may merit a formal investigation by the elite forces of the FBI. So perhaps the death threats despite their harm to the well being and peace of myself and Joy will have some good side results.
Our efforts to uncover the blacked out redactions, judicial orders to mum people, the threats to individuals livelihood so they fear to come forward with facts, the fact that Brandon Donahue I refer to by his moniker Donut has changed his story about what really happened to cause the deaths of the 19 GMHS and that so many even experienced wild land fire fighter death investigators including Dr. Ted Putnam and Gary Olson leads me to the hope that the FBI would put their resources to set the record straight.
They have before said it is a State matter. But I wondered why since the GMHS crew were a nationwide operating crew under Federal directives. I also wondered why the avoidance when Federal Tax Revenues support these crews and even though only a minor portion of the fire of June 30, 2013 included Federal Lands, there were Federal Officials on the scene checking safety measures.
We here on this site have never given up or been satisfied with the sloppy investigation that smells of a crony type cover up. We believe the lives and truth of the deaths of the GMHS crew matters. Those heroes would want the truth out so situations that caused their deaths can be addressed. Future wild land fire fighters lives are compromised if those factors are not corrected.
Saliente Do what is right because it is right.
As alarming as the attacks on freedom to speak, voice opinions, and in the case of the death of the 19, squelch the first hand testimony of wild land fire fighters who heard communications and knew about burns and knew what was hidden from investigators and public media–are the attacks on investigative journalists.
I am not one, but I see that there is a drive by corporate government to stifle free investigative work. Julian Assange has been for 10 years persecuted and continues to be. Donald Trump, the so called champion against false reporting had ordered Julian’s arrest at the Ecuadorian Embassy, and because another investigative Journalist got word she was able to warn Julian.
People could see that a bit hypocritical on Trumps part–yet he would defend the Bush war crimes, partners in Crime Clintons, and Obama not because he wants to but because the corporate war mongers who actually control the politics want him persecuted and prosecuted to set an example for those Journalists that dare ferret out the truth of the crimes of government. It has to be scary to say the least to see how a man who had done no harm other than expose war crimes by government hidden from public view would be persecuted for so long and now after all his ill treatment, if brought to America, the land of the corporate military despots, will face up to 174 years in prison.
Trump mumbled something about pardons for Snowden and Assange. But you did not know he engineered the arrest of this hero in Investigative Journalism. It show how coy he is to mumble such things because he knows there are many votes lost from people that know the ordeal of Julian Assange and very much appreciate the revelations of war crimes involving those in power.
Sadly the constitution starts with We the People–is Trump the only one wise enough to play the people for votes? He is on the move to get another war going –at minimum a cold war with China that has every indication it is on the brink of a hot war.
Power corrupted by the Corporate rulers whom have enriched themselves at the expense of the tax payer-and certainly they want to murder the reputation and even the life of a truth saying Journalist.
The tyranny our children and their children face is a horror scene along with the take down of this society by these greedy non caring war mongering corporate entities. The black psychology used to gain control of this country we must protest. The persecution of truth seeking and revealing Investigative Journalists that are the heroes for the people is despicable. Do not let these power mongering and greed infested people in charge go without protest for their persecutions of these Journalists–our freedom of speech and press must be protested. The oligarchic police state managed by the Corporate military complex must be challenged.
The inventors of this Covid 19 war virus must be proud of themselves by now. They have done a great job of reducing the population of the elderly–it is posted at 200,000 in the US now and over a million world wide by now. I understand Britain is having a resurgence. So of course we China since there is a need to demonize the Chinese so we can get a cold war going to justify the 474 billion set aside for the military industrial complex to spend on new war devices, more war gain of function virus and their vaccines, and the virus labs we have world wide even in Georgia near Russia, and our 800 imperialist military outposts world wide. That money partially includes the military maneuvers we are doing in the China Sea, the Persian waters about Iran and those presently going on off the coast of Venezuea. Trump is so happy how Great HE has mad America that he wants to flex his muscle and parade our might to the world. Pompeo is out there warning anyone that defies the Iranian embargo and restrictions will suffer the terrible hand of mighty America.
Meantime, like the awards given out to those that managed the wild land fire at Yarnell, someone, although secretly is getting awards for killing so many and spreading the crisis. After all the US government and China both contributed to inventing this virus at Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And now France has reported cases November before the outbreak in China. So what is going on==well Julian Assange has been persecuted ten years now for revealing documents that proved the Iraq war was a perpetration and Hillary was one of the worlds worse liars–so who next will be persecuted when so called honest government is hacked again to prove why this virus and the protests and world wide economic disaster is in effect. That is of course if Trump does not agitate an third world war and you and I are here next year and some hacker alive to report.
Saliente
Did send this email to Joy–She continues to solicit information on the Yarnell Fire and has accomplished much toward proof of the cover up there concerning the deaths and the botched wild land fire operation that destroyed the town of Yarnell and killed the 19 GMHS crew.
My understanding from her is that the Documentary of the Truth of the Yarnell Incident is very near fruiti0n yet there is ample time for people to contact Joy with more information that she can pass on. I have to applaud Joy and the Investigative Journalists working to get the Documentary completed–it will save lives of wild land fire fighters directly and indirectly over time. Truth of the Yarnell incident is of utmost importance for that reason.
I also extend my condolences and regret for the death of the wild land fire fighter Charles Morton, only 39 on the El Dorado Fire. These heroes lives matter and why every death incident requires the truth and not the redaction, black out, mum ordered situation we saw to cover up the actual reasons for the deaths of the GMHS crew.
We are going though a world crisis as well, yet we have Pompeo and Trump working to agitate another war with one that will be another killer that could end in nuclear war. Trump is working hard along with the war corporations to upgrade our nuclear war systems, as if we do not already have the capability and technology to destroy the earth 40 times over.
It may well be that the invasive American Imperialistic Empire is coming to an end–we have begun to see the war based methods are coming home now. We have plenty to deal with here, and now intervening so much in China affairs, as well as the Muslim affairs may do exactly as the elite plan–create the division and destruction and debasement of peoples to a degree of such suffering that a solution by the gods of the world will be offered and humbly accepted by the masses. Too many already were willing to give up their personal freedoms by such acts as the Bush Patriot Act under the pretense that they preferred the Police Mandated Safety Acts to preserve their safety from what was a handful of terrorists. It was 19 Saudi’s that caused the mayhem and that against all our wonderful technical expertise backed by CIA intelligence that was not so intelligent concerning those 19. Or maybe they were and allowed the incident to happen.
It is no assurance if they were honest since what can be done if China parks a few of its nuclear subs off our shores 12 miles or so in International Waters and sets off missiles with nukes to wipe out all our major cities? Tell me that there is any way that could be defended against when those missiles would hit within 5 minutes every major city–Trump would not even have time to get off the golden toilet stool to reply.
The CIA must know this as well–but people here seem to believe that upgrading is doing anything when 19 camel riders can take down the twin towers with box cutters.
So these are my opinions and I am certain those of a different study have contrary thoughts.
Here is an email I did send to Joy but seems it appropriate to the Yarnell Incident that all have heart to solve and correct.
Yes that was the number so no call back from FBI. But the fact that I posted the that I reported his threats on IM ought to shut him up. It is a 6th degree felony to make terroristic threats by email. I imagine with all the riots they are putting personal stuff off.
I did email or text anonymous I think a week ago but never got a response–but it sounds like is still collecting data. I did post that a documentary was being made but still anonymous, however I said if anyone comes up with new info to contact you since you would pass it on–they could write you anonymous but if so you would evaluate the info before passing it on.
Weather has cooled here –having my horseshoe coffee and three dogs are gone–getting through the fence again. Buckie stays home away from the others so at least I will have one left if I can’t contain them. 4 acres isn’t enough they want the whole desert–there’s rabbit and snakes out there
You are giving them hell–good work they deserve the truth–There is a damn good Irish Song think you would like–I can’t hear the words but the title sounds good–I”ll have lots of company in Hell It is by a group called The Dead South–I laugh at these characters and the way they have a video.
Hang in, it is going to be a civil war, race war, hunger games, and all the elites are already disappearing from the big cities getting out to their hide outs–Billionaire row in NYC is vacated–so the plan the SHTF time is near. We should be in war with China and Iran pretty soon–Taiwan is close to war and we have plenty of troops headed that way and a big part of the Navy in the China Sea.
Meantime Trump is going to remain President whether the Democrat brain damaged wins or not. I think Trump will win though, the country has the war mentality and if elections are fixed they will be fixed his way. Either way, the war department and the military corporations sucking up the 474 billion tax payer profits while most of the taxpayers are suffering–more millions applying for unemployment, people dying from Covid–but these finaglers of war are off in their Yachts and Islands –maybe Clinton’s have bought the Epstein Island he was there so much– Gates only 6 rides, Trump had videos of his escapades there—so maybe they will have to split the ownership up.
The Charade is on–Smile you are on camera and government has you pegged–and Gates is working hard to get you a nano chip installed so your whereabouts will be known at all times. Keep your jack boots shined if you work for the police–you will have plenty to do and your masters will have you working overtime. If plan A does not work, plan B or C will be in operation. None will be to the general population benefit as we already see how our elected officials are distributing monies and treating the tax payer that is now at their whim.
My opinion, you perhaps have a love for the liars in office. But the more I see their actions, the more I have a revulsion. And as always, I love the freedom of speech and opinions in America–you may love the liar Trump or the brain dead Biden and the obvious phony Harris, but I see them all as no more than war mongering puppets belonging to the corporate elite that put them in office. The oligarchy is working now to take complete control–Power players never are satisfied until they have it all their way and as far as the general public goes–it is the Oligarch way or the Highway.
Saliente–may the Irish Gods treat you well if you do well–
mother f’ers
you have to be kidding me
Gary-
here is one for your book
code of silence is happening right now on another bad situation Wildfire…let the saga continue…you all have a warped sense of what is good solid leadership and when you others gonna speak up
You want meat for your book
Mother f’ers are at it again….shhhh…..shhhh….shoot the messenger you dumb ass keep it quiet WFs and FFs….
come for me for speaking up
I am about to pull a whole new set of records and let the dominoes fall…so sick of your sorry ass culture that there is Battlement to now what happened this week…fuck man…fuck
What I am learning in all my records is that you are unable to trust some leaders in this Wildland Fire Industry to do the right thing for complete lessons learned.
I am learning the common or seasoned WF or FF is taught code of silence very early on…
I am sick of the bullshit. SICK OF IT!!!!!!
I guess 19 lives was not enough….right..????
I hope the ones that are doing this stupid shit may it be the poor ass leader and or the poor ass follower-ship…WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and you know what Gar-
you are right
that guy with the death threat – try to come my way—
you dumb m’ther f’er
you are a couple cans short of a six pack if you ever think I fear you or anyone in the aftermath of the YHF
I hope you know in MY PRAYERS—I pray God reckons you all very soon versus waiting.
Dumb asses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And for the calm other who wants me to mind my sailor voice and understand the code of silence.
No
I get keeping some information in
But no way if you think what I just overheard is fine by me
I will beg every forensic weather person out there on my fucking knees to get the point of origin to the progression to what just happened
You stupid Dumb asses
If you thought I had a mouth on yarnell
You just wait and see how we talk on this recent code of silence event
Dumb ass people
Jiminy Cricket here.
Your conscious.
Code of loud truth matters! Avoid code of silence!!!!
Those deceiving ass-wipes
If David Kelley wants to call me masquerading as a Christian based on I can mouth off…I apologized to God for refraining from the use of edifying words yet I at least admit to Him of my failures, something some in the fire world sure may wanna learn especially any that think they can create a Crew without the proper understanding that LIVES MATTER
I apologize to those offended by my frustrations…when is enough… ENOUGH
Apologize to no one Joy–you have worked yourself to the bone. I think it has kept you alive and vibrant knowing you have a mission to accomplish.
All these authoratative bastards want to teach you to kneel–the preachers have people on their knees, the mullahs have people down there even bumping their heads to Allah, and all the bullies and freeloading authorities want to take away your dignity, pride and freedoms. Those bastards rank no better than the common man–as Shakespear would say Oh dear god actor of earth thou shitteth too and it stinkith too.
Codes everywhere? Undercover actions and a country run by war criminals that have fooled the public and used the poor while the richest have raped the economy with bailouts that makes future generations into a land of serfdom with even more tyrannical sanctions upon the middle classes that soon will be reduced to and already so many are scrapping to survive. The food lines are long and the unemployment lines are too. The people are suffering while the corporate giants are taking big bailouts just as they did in 2008 when it was noted these giants are too big to fail but the middle classes and the poor are not. The giants are getting their checks, the measly stimulus checks for the needy are delayed by all means with the coportate puppet Pelochi while he actions and the Demo actions appease the Trumpeters. Trump is smiling when he has a mentally challenged opponet that finally got himself in big politics backed by the big money of corporate and banking interests. But corporations are covering all bases and a few millions both ways means billions in rewards curtesy of the Tax payer to the military industiral complex that Dwight D. Eisenhower warned about when I was but a teenager graduating from highschool in the 60’s. It is here now and in control but about to reset this country after usurping and robbing the common folk. They will win perhaps, yet the young people are quite alert and see the chicanery–they may protest and may gain back their rights and freedoms. My children and their children will face dire times–but to maintain integrity, honesty, and dignity and stand against the new corporate fascist rule is their fate or be relegated to conform to the new George Orwell 1984 world is their fate.
America is no longer going to be the big imperialistic war mongering regime change country it is. The world has its number, and it must start backing off from the blood bath methods we have seen such as the killing of millions in Iraq, the killing of hundreds of thousands in Afghanistan and Syria and the milliions killed in Viet Nam all under false flag events.
There is not one of us honest American Veterans that have served this country in war or peacetime that would not stand up to protect this country. But we do not like being duped and played by political and corporate giants that induce wars for profit. We know now the Gulf of Tonkin was a lie to get us into war over VietNam. We know now that Iraq never had nukes, that Bush’s friends the Saudis were the ones involved in bringing down the towers, not Iraq and we know the 18 years in Afghanistan is just another continued profiteering method for the industrial war complex that continues to enrich the few and bleed the middle class and poor. Truly if evidence were out there would be a list of our Presidents on the UN War Crimes list. Their sanctions and their cronies are guilty of not only of the blood of millions of foreign citizens but also of our own Veterans and citizens.
We indeed need regime change but not in Iran–we need a house cleaning at home. Until Corporate bribery is removed from elections it will not happen–it may not happen since the Police and the Military are owned and directed by the very people that trample the constitutional rights of citizens and go along with the new world order.
But there is hope perhaps. There are many veterans that understand what is taking place. There is Senator Telsie Gabbard, Major who depoyed twice to Iraq. There is Jesse Ventura, and there are so many other veterans that have gotten wise. Certainly we believed when we were young these wars were right. We were told we were defending the constitution and our country. We took an oath that is still good today. Yet we later learned these wars since VietNam and even Korea were started on lies so that the military and industrial complex could profit. That policy is still in effect–Biden supports it just as he did as a democrat pushing other democrats to support the Iraq war. And now we have Trump attempting to get a war going either in Iran or Venezuela to foster the profits of the complex. Yes he brags about his money gains as the President while people are suffering on the street. He wants more monies from a new war. Will he get it or will it be Biden? Or will enough of the younger generation of wise kids protest enough to get these war mongers out of office?
Well that is my take on the situation and I do believe most of us better buckle in for a bumpy ride in the coming crisis.
Those wild fires in California gave me climate change here in a hurry. I had a blistering day two days ago. But the skies were red and that sun you could look straight at by 4 pm as nothing but a red globe. The night was so I had to use two blankets and in comes my wood stove tomorrow. That change was so quick it gives you an idea what a nuclear winter would be like. So get yourself a parka with Trump or Biden in office you may need it.
Saliente
Here is a conversation with Joy–she is always looking for things to improve health and likely the reason she is wounded but alive after hiking over 900 trips though those retardant areas to show and inform wild land fire fighters, media, journalists, investigators, authors and other interested people wanting to hike the route of the GMHS crew that was killed on June 30, 3013. I had hiked only about 100 people and soon after those hikes and some months the wild fire, I had my first heart attack. Young Joy has now been suffering the effects from those many hikes through the retardant contaminated areas but is taking measures to combat the problem.
There will be many in California suffering the deaths and illness from retardant dumping near their residences but nothing will be said and if we had not seen the actual deaths and illness caused by the retardant at Yarnell, the pollution and toxic waste areas caused by retardant would not be known. You only need another small town to verify the experiment at Yarnell to see that the retardant kills elderly at a rate even higher than Covid 19–the only difference the retardant works at variable time rates in its effects. Some do come down immediately, although most have died over a time period of about 7 years to kill about a third of the population of 645 that Yarnell had in 2013. There are plenty residents suffering sickness from the retardant as well.
So here is a message I sent to Joy–These of course are my own opinions–some of you will say I would be a paranoid individual–I am not, well satisfied as can be with my life and take it on a daily basis. Certainly have enough health issues but removing myself from the retardant areas and using good measures of diet, exercise, and mental attitude have survived a situation that many have not at Yarnell. The bell has tolled for me more than a couple of times but the Irish Gods and good fortune have for some reason extended my stay on this earth–the lands of the Moon and Mars look fairly desolate, like the Nevada Nuclear Bomb test site, but we all will get a visit and it is best in the spirit form considering conditions there.
I see this world controlled and plans made by a hand full of degenerate but wealthy individuals that use politicians to do their bidding and carry out what they believe to be good for themselves and how the world ought to be managed. And of course the monies set aside–474 billion this year alone–but many trillions have been set aside of tax payer money over the past decades since the beginning of the Viet Nam fiasco, will go and have gone to profit those few that run the military and industrial complex and corporate interests in banking, insurance, oil, war mongering and the like.
While almost 50% of GNP goes to war making industries, very little is spent to help those in dire need right now due to the economical crisis and the War Designed Virus Covid 19. That 474 billion should be used to bail out the poor and middle classes the are now having to encamp themselves in cheap plastic tents and tarps in the cities now looking like third world countries. Indeed I think that is part of the elite plan to bring the American public in line of equality with third world populations so that the masses all look the same except for the less than 1% of the Masters of the Universe that have 60% of the world’s wealth and hold the puppet strings of all world leaders in one manner or another. Those that become to bothersome to their plans are eliminated either by orders of sniper fire, drone, rocket fire, or outright invasion of the country involved. The plans and profits of the elite will not be thwarted unless the people arise in mass. But propaganda, diversion, confusion, pandemic and economic distress will keep them at bay. The old create a problem, then offer a solution method used works well with them and we see it was and still is being used by our imperialistic leaders in such places as Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and the like. The blood bath of killing of literally millions of citizens of those countries and thousands of our own young veterans makes the home mass murderer look like a Sunday school deacon’s BLT sandwich. Bacon is bad for the heart and the deacon killer list was maybe ten not millions.
But I hope the world wakes up–maybe a small warning since Media is owned by the elite classes and will certainly divert you from the truth and what is really going behind the scenes. Snowden and Assange have given us a little of the truth of the criminal enterprises running the country–but of course they have been heavily punished and would be executed if it were not for so much public outrage at their treatment.
But here is a bit of my talk with Joy for your amusement perhaps–but you might want to do your own research unless you are content to accept the situation and Media as true sources and have no reason for concern. If anything the Yarnell taught me, it was not to necessarily believe what the authorities are telling the public. Their FOIA information, just as the Snowden and Assange revelations prove them to be liars.
> I will order some of that herb you mentioned before for general health. I just spent this moring putting a gigabyte designare motherboard in my computer because I did not feel like getting out under my Ford F150–I had to put another engine in it and have it in all but lining it up and bolting it up but just did not have the energy so did the light thing. Glad I did, this thing really picked the speed of this computer. Well I bought a used one off amazon half price at $300 but it was no good so sent it back, looks like they sent me back a brand new one that works dandy. The other board has a fast CPU that was almost as expensive as the Threadripper–it is a Ryzen 7 but that board must be funky. Then I put a handle on a real nice damascus 1025 carbon knife and have that to finish. That hard mesquite root makes fine handles and it is harder than oak. I think only iron wood is harder than mesquite but none around here that I have seen.
>
> Joy–I think soon we will be in a civil war–this country has screwed over the blacks and latinos for centuries and especially the blacks feel they are entitled to the weath of the wealthy and those that have denied them. They are the biggest amount of people treated to prison for being poor under dope crimes and the like while our own President for instance Clinton was involved in dope running. CIA under Reagan and later all definitely were and exposed by the Journalist Gary Webb–which then the government and media persecuted for exposing them. The whole world is angry at Trump for killing that General in Iraq and attempting to invade Venezuela. Venezuela took the oil back from Exxon and the US is treatening to invade and has with Britain and numerous other countries sent a bunch of war ships down off Venzuelan Coasts and unloaded a bunch of our soldiers in Columbia. Iran did retaliate for the killing of the General by hitting 3 US military bases in Iraq but the media is keeping all this quiet. Still Trump backed down when Iran sent a bunch of oil tankers into Venezuela. The UN and most of European nations and Russia and China are not happy with those sanctions. But with this economy about to go into the worse depression people have ever seen, Trump might get a war going if he can. But people here are fed up with the war economy idea and because of it the war machine makers and mongers have made billions and even people like Chaney with Halliburton after destroying Irag make big money rebuilding with tax payer money. But it is so now they can only print more money and start to collect their debts.. So you see it is all a plan and once the US is in depression then there will be a reorganizing and the New World Fascist Order. This shit is all planned and all this civil unrest, the ruining of the economy, and the civil unrest that likely will soon be a civil war is a way to cause a totalitarian control by those few elite that intend to reduce the population with drastic measures.
>
> Thanks for the talk about Gary. Indeed he is an honest and straightforward person–his book will be a fresh look at the world of wild land fire fighting
Tex Gilligan
8:41 AM (2 minutes ago)
to Arizona.Desert.Walker
Yes very true why I keep writing about it. There are a lot of good people out there that are fooled and believe that Biden or Trump make a difference–they are just a public diversion–two apples off the same tree maybe one is a bit sweeter than the other.
Saliente
I has said the psycho Trump has been attempting to cause trouble and get a war started in Iran or Venezuela for another Police Imperialistic regime change war. All have failed to the promises that the regime change Presidents have said would happen–you know –make a democracy and save the people–and in Trumps dim vision make America Great Again. The millions killed in Iraq and out troops stationed there along with Trumps murder of a so called Terrorist General has only caused more bitterness.
Now the absolute threshold of idiocy was to send a major part of our naval war ships into the China Seas to threaten China. Obama and Hillary had done this before with the wiki leaks having Hillary say the Pacific Ocean ought to be renamed the United States Ocean. But Trump has taken it further–he is now selling technical war equipment including drones, missiles and other equipment to Taiwan with a dire warning from China. China considers Taiwan a part of China just as we do Hawaii. When you start moving missles, drones, war preparations into Taiwan it is even more alarming to the Chinese than we were when Russia was arming Cuba with missiles. Trump has to know this as dim witted as the action seems, it is a direct action to cause a war. In fact China has just this week fired a missile right over Taiwan into the China Sea and has departed from their usual reserved answers to threats from Trump. They have said if these actions of getting missiles, drones and military armaments into Taiwan by the US are done, there will be consequences.
Experts in the war situations say if the US gets involved in a war with China it will be more devastating than WW2 and not unlikely a nuclear confrontation as well. China has 1.3 billion and can and maybe very willing to loose .3 billion. We have a population less than .3 billion. What is this fool of a President up to? Have we not killed enough already in Iraq under false pretenses, enough in Afghanistan claiming that we were killing off terrorists to save America and in 18 years have only caused the proliferation of terrorism by our own terroristic acts in those countries.? These damn liars in power ought to do what Trump said he would do–drain the swamp and now he has filled it with sewage.
We have enough problems at home to tend to so this is not time to be inciting wars in foreign lands–and these embargos and sanctions has only hurt the poor of those countries and changed nothing except to make the people more bitter at Great Again America.
I have grand kids both in the Army and the Navy. I hope to hell this sorry President does not send them to another war created because 474 billion was set aside for the war machine and these political bought offs are supporting another war. And you have not heard one word of a democrat speaking anything toward stopping these insane actions against Iran, Venezuela or China.
But if they did make a small mumble you can know it is how Trump got in office–waving his hand at the Generals and the War machine expenditures–yet not one word out of him when 474 billion is set aside for that as the country middle classes, small business and the poor along with street protests and unrest in all the large cities is going on. So I just do not see much hope whether Trump or Biden get in–they both are made men and have paid their dues by murder and mayhem–yet are not happy with the blood they are already guilty of. What power does to people of no scruple or conscience. Seriously get a parka and Micky Mouse boots–it gets frigid under a nuclear sky.
Saliente
So here is how I see the Trump deceptions and his magical tricks to become President. We all want America Great and have seen the lies of Media, deceptions of people in office such as the Bush capers to profit the corporate war complex and himself and his cronies. Trump never was a successful business man and if you go on You Tube you will see how many bankruptcies and failed ventures he had–but his Dad being a filthy rich billionaire kept bailing him out just as we do the corporations and banks too big to fail–they never pay back, nor did Trump. But he is a slicker–he knew there is big money in war mongering profits be he well knew the American Public was fed up with the Afghanistan illegal occupation of our Military and its enormous cost in our young veterans lives and innocent bystanders and the trillions involved over the 18 years we have been there.
Trump fed the public the lie that he would stop this nonsense war spending, bring our soldiers home and just as Biden and he are both again feeding us lies as if they give a shit about the general middle class, the worker bee, and the poor–he said to himself just like the others do–say anything because once I am in there I will do what I fucking please. There is big money in war profits and I intend to get my share, and he damn well is including not only having increased our troops in Afghanistan, doing everything possible to cause Iran, Venezuela, or China to retaliate significantly enough to enrage the American Public so he has ample excuse to get back into the killing mode–but more so to demand even more war monies. These bastards that instigate these wars are never on the front lines, keep their own away from them and are happy to sacrifice our young soldiers, pilots, navy and marines as long as there are huge profits to be made.
I hope people start to get the truth of these Corporate Puppets playing the public like a piano. But of course when you see people like Snowden and Assange facing a possible 175 years in a federal prison if the sorry judges of England and the politicians have their way–then you see little hope for change.
Trump is already weighing in on whether he will pardon Snowden and Assange–he knows that even acting like he will adds to his tally–but he also is concerned about his cronies so he has to work it both ways.
If either Biden or Trump gets in it is no matter. Biden and his history shows he is as much a war complex supporter as Trump. So expect a war soon somewhere–this is the plan but the American protests may throttle it some but you won’t stop these fellows that hold the purse strings.
Saliente–be of good cheer if you know the drill.
What I like about Sonny and our trail times was he was not addicted to the cell or Internet. Sonny recognized the psychological effects and how the net took over people.
More anxiety has come from the net. Sad huh. Same crap is happening with suicides too. It is rare to find people like Sonny who refused to drink out of plastic anything and made it a serious point to stay away from your cells and I ternet. The man who does not want to manipulate ya is a man you want around. It did help to see when we had a sad or bad time he just melted silver and made jewelry for me of a cross with heart and he made his presence….by his creative thinking.
Technology has advanced exponentially and nothing else have advanced like that.
Thank you Sonny for the pure pioneering moments.
Thank you Sonny for recognizing all this. AI done like Wtktt is appreciated by me. The interconnection wtktt has offered has been from simplicity to far beyond and I guess I just wanted to take the time out to honor Wtktt today. Thank you sir.
Thanks for the compliment Joy–and very much agreed–we have learned so much from WTKTT, Gary, RTS, Woodsman, and the many wild land fire fighers that have risked it all as much as the soldier dodging bullets and risking his life to defend the freedoms Americans had promised under the Constitution. I do believe a race war will be added to the Pandemic–the unfair treatment to blacks and people of color has come to roost and even the facts of the early slave works this country has going. Right now the Boers in south Africa are being murdered and the Africans that had their lands taken by the Boers and English are seeing the impoverished African indigenous people now speaking English and politically motivated to gain back their lands. Many of the Boers are leaving to Australia, England and other parts of the world–Farms up for auction there have no buyers because people see that reform is in the making.
You just can not do wrong to people of other lands or go in and usurp them, make slaves and that type of repression and evil without it visiting you back. That rule of Karma can not be broken. We have been fed so many lies–and every war since the Korean war has been orchestrated by the war industrialist few and became blood baths that this country has instigated. Of course those of us on the low level were and are generally fooled –but facts prove we were wrong–we believed the lies until we found the facts.
There is no honest media save a few that are independently operated and owned. Anyone that believes the media these days is a fool. Even BBC that I used to trust is now part of the game owned by the elite and used as a propaganda machine to keep the masses in ignorance while the few rape the world and keep the poor abased and now even are dissolving the middle classes.
I think I was fortunate–I always thought we were good living in a tent or a shack on a mining claim. I never considered us poor –I thought the Mexicans were poor until I saw the poor ones had more than we. Well it gave me an understanding that wealth is not necessarily happiness or contentment. If you have the essentials of life, a good attitude and are at peace with yourself you do well.
My Dad would never refuse feeding a roving poor person or a bum that was in need, even when our grub box was slim–they got what we got and I can remember his generosity. I think he would have lived to a hundred had he not carried that hot piece of Uranium in his pocket for so many years. But at 73, he had lived a mostly free and happy life–I believe he was not a total atheist–more of an agnostic–he saw the preachers as lazy parasites unwilling to make a living by productive work and a way to control others and finagle their hard earned dollars. Yet he had good scruples–would not take government hand outs–although in his dying days when he was so weak he could no longer work, he took a Veterans pension. To me he was a hero–a kid at 15 lying in mud and firing a machine gun at Germans in WW!–yet both sides were fooled by the political machines–good people fighting to defend what they thought was right. And maybe it was since the English would now be speaking German but I do not believe us Americans would even if the Engish had to learn it.
I am proud of my heirtage–most of us of Irish decent were forced here courtesy of the English nobility. Now a days they are child molesters and killers of movie stars they intermarry with. But they have always been a nasty bunch–how many wives did Henry the Eighth have beheaded? Six I believe but he had concubines as well so no one mentions how many of those he disposed of. This is the type of breeding you see for these blue bloods that brag on their royal DNA. Shite in English verbage.
But we have our own leaders and they are not doing too well–Clinton and Bush both with some nasty habits and murder on their hands as well. But they won’t be tried as war criminals as they should–but maybe Clinton will wind up with charges like his elite friends –though Andrew is hiding under royal protections. Child molesting and trafficking is not a small charge and I am sure Clinton and Andrew will resent having to register and report as sexual predators.
But you have a duty as citizens and Journalists more to tell the truth and report evils we see. The common citizen depends upon their honest reports to be informed not fooled and used as we see by the corporate owned and controlled media.
Saliente
Here is some reporting from a Journalist on line and in case you did not already know:
By Evan Blake
19 December 2019
Three pieces of legislation passed Tuesday demonstrate the bipartisan support for war, austerity and attacks on democratic rights within the American political establishment.
First, the Senate voted to approve the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) by the lopsided margin of 86–8, sending the record $738 billion military bill to President Trump to sign into law.
Later the same day, the Democratic-controlled House of Representatives approved two appropriations bills totaling nearly $1.4 trillion to provide funding to the military and other federal government agencies through September 2020.
While large majorities in both parties in the Senate voted to approve the NDAA, four Democratic presidential candidates were absent, enabling them to posture as anti-war while avoiding any affront to the military brass. The four are Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Amy Klobuchar and Cory Booker.
The above facts tell us how both parties are for continuing the insane war mongering–we indeed have 800 bases around the world with 400 in Asian areas fixed to declare war with China. Trump was allocated many billions to increase his own army to manage the populations at home should he see that the protestors get out of hand and a civil racial war with grievances due to the excessive police intrusions against the poor and infringement on constitutional rights of the people, as well as the protesting against the world corporate war mongers. While the people at home are suffering–cannot pay rent, are deeply in debt so homes are being lost, people and small business going bankrupt and congress having all kinds of problems helping the poor and middle classes so in need of funds during this manufactured crisis.
If your senator or representative voted for that humongous record war bill and the Trump approved 1.3 Trillion follow up you need to be certain to make note of it. If you see what is actually going on with this country’s imperalistic moves then you will understand the protests–they have their justifications. And you see the liars Bernie and Warren and the others running for high office so that abstain in order to see if they could play the game and act like they are against these war appropriations. They do not want to offend the corporate war people and those people know these politicians are really on their side to fleece the taxpayer yet act like Trump who also raved at the Military spending yet willingly signed the biggest War Appropriations ever–while the population and home problems are given a pittance except for those too big to fail–banks and corporate enterprises that rake in trillions in bail out thanks to a congress and President owned by these elite.
America is beginning to wake up to reality. We are on the brink of a major war with nearly all of the congress both in the House and Senate voting for funds for it and Trump working hard to get one started. My how the Democrats and Republicans have mastered propaganda so that even though they both represent the interests of the War Corporate thieves of tax monies they give the dummed down public what they believe to be a choice at the voting booth. It is indeed a laugh if you have any intelligence at all.
The wall is going in, we have offended the Latins by our actions against the Venezuelans and our record of screwing with Latin affairs in so many nations including assignations and illegal interventions that harm the poor, we have really screwed with the Arabian World for our own benefit for oil and other profits that these corporate giants and politicos have instigated blood baths and suffering among the poor of those nations and now we are directing our venom toward the Chinese by directly confronting them with our war ships and arming Taiwan against their warning. The Dragon has been peaceful but our war mongering President chooses to poke at it and now the Dragon has begun to roar.
Five or ten nukes launched from submarines off both our coasts in international waters would suffice to destroy this nation–all the new crap invented and produced by the trillions alloted to war and security would be useless against such a close salvo of missiles. I have a grand kid deployed on one of those nuclear subs. They are instruments of death–and China has enough to do what we are doing to them, only if the Dragon decides to strike first as Japan did at Pearl Harbor–can we stand to loose most of our 327 million people? China as huge as it is has 1 billion more than our population. So you can wipe out our total population over there and they will still be over populated with a billion left to continue fighting.
People in other countries, including Europe are beginning to look at the US as a waning Imperialistic Empire about to be destroyed in a most horrendous way if it does not mend its war promoting policies.
Do not believe the Chinese Communists will be bullied–they took Vietnam in the final–we lost that war–they do have the means now and are willing to sustain the great losses. That Dragon may soon be breathing fire and only a fool would continue to needlessly agitate it.
Be like the Irish–neutral in these affairs–defending it nation and not intervening in the affairs of other nations. There are enough problems on the home front to attend to.
Saliente
Yes I did hike yesterday–cut a mesquite limb for a bow making project. Everything I do is slow motion but that is OK knowing I am fortunate I was able to escape the Hospice in Prescott VA where I had been assigned and locked down for my own safety. It is good to have a son that could help arrange my excape–he explained that his Dad wants to die at home and I already did that but with a shotgun blast to the back but that was out in the desert–a good place to die anyway.
I wore my Jesus sandals on that hike but wasn’t as brave as John Daugherty who hiked with us in that bouldery country where the GMHS heroes died. The desert sands are more forgiving on the feet but the brush is a tad rough.
Then the hike did have some problems for my pooches. They had trapped a rattler in a small mesquite so I went back to coax them away. I saw the rattler but left him alone–there was a rat nest not too far off from the mesquite and I think he was headed that way for supper. I don’t know about you but when I am having supper I prefer not to be interrupted so I wished him a good meal as I left. But it being about 3/4mile back home, I noticed Scooter dragging behind–and just as I know when the boys have a rattler trapped by their way of barking, I know when a pooch is hurt. I knew he had been struck by his actions so I kept coaxing him and got him home finally. I brought him in and his head swelled up like a balloon.
Generally a dog sturck on the head is dead meat. Joy and I watched one of my dogs die just from a strike on the leg at one of our camps. So I was expecting the worse but this morning he is back almost totally to normal–went to chow and was wanting to go back and visit that snake again. The snake had the advantage being shielded by the thorny brush of the mesquite.
So now I looked at Whitey and she is swollen up on the head –she got it too and I could see the blood had dripped down on her white fur from the two fang marks right next her nose. Her snout is fairly swollen but she will be a survivor and I appreciate that that snake did not give them full doses–he must have realized he had to save some back since there were four dogs surrounding him. And I think the smaller doses will give them some immunity kind of like Joy and her small rattlesnake doses she took for health.
One has to appreciate nature and how things work and balance out. The dogs were at fault there and I hope they learned a bit of respect for rattlers–although I don’t think Scooter has learned anything at all concerning rattlers. The way he recovered, I think he is really pissed and would be game again. Whitey looks miserable and I think she will surely circumvent trouble.
Joy just sent me a photo of the men hiking up the mountain that she had taken that morning of their demise.
Code of Silence that Joy talks about sounds like police work, firemans work, CIA undercover black ops, Bill and Hillary works, Obama works, Bush Works and anyone operating at a criminal level. Julian Assange is being persecute to the fullest extent by these criminal reptiles simply because information given to him was passed on to media, some of which proved how the American Public is kept in the dark about the facts of the elite criminal acts. Epstein had to be murdered to cover up what he knows and we wonder what Maxwell has on the very leaders of this country. Certain liar Clinton that he did not know Epstein after riding on his Lolita Express 26 times but that child trafficking plane included such notables beside Prince Andrew as Bill Gates and a litany of power players including Trump and even the Attorney that gave Epstein a sweetheart deal of probation by necessity to use his private cell as a sleeping quarters at night. Epstein and Maxwell were perhaps truly CIA agents entrapping the elite–but they were both into the trafficking as well and just strangely Trump like Clinton denied knowing about Epstein despite leaked video of him hanging off the shoulder of Epstein saying how he had his eye on one of Epsteins imports. And they were importing poor kids from everywhere–big money in child trafficking but heavy penalties –Epstein got choked to death by some ape–that Cornorer of 25 years that was in on the autopsy said it certainly was not consistent with a hanging–but the broken choke bones were consistent with homicide. But anyone telling the truth on these criminal and their criminal acts will be persecuted to make an example to anyone that dare challenge the war mongering power heads.
You do not write or talk about these criminals and expect to win–you do it because they are criminals. That was what Julian Assange had to decide as did Snowden now trapped in Russia and eventhough he was working for CIA. You just dare not tell the truth unless you have balls and would not sacrifice your integrity by a code of silence since all criminal enterprises must operate that way. Well Snowden and Assange are definite heroes for exposing the lies being fed the public.
Here are just a few things revealed by Assange:US Army manual for Guantanamo prison camp. Date: November 2007. The Leak: One of Assange and WikiLeaks first big releases was of a 238-page Army manual from 2003 on “standard operating procedures” for the Camp Delta prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
570,000 messages sent on 9/11. Date: November 2009. The Leak: WikiLeaks published more than half a million pager messages sent within a 24-hour period around the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people.
Video of US helicopter fire killing civilians in Iraq. Date: April 2010. The Leak: WikiLeaks published video footage from a 2007 U.S. Apache helicopter attack in Baghdad, Iraq, that killed at least nine men, including a Reuters news photographer and his driver.
Iraq and Afghanistan war documents. Date: July and October 2010. The Leaks: In 2010
Snowden revealed that NSA were violating constitutional invasion of privacy laws while NSA had been outright lying about their actions.
It reminds me of Trump yelling about the overspending of Military and how the Generals are misusing tax dollars, yet when 474 billion was approved for this fiscal years military budget, he is as quiet as a mouse. I think his mouth is watering and his eyeballs awash with dollar signs. You know damn well he is like Cheny and Bush aligned to get some under the table monies from distributing monies to various war endeavors. Everybody wins–a win win deal for the wealthy industrialists and the political puppets but factored out of the equation are the middle class, the poor and the small business enterprises. They get arrested for trying to make a living by breaking Covid rules with a few inside–while crowds of protesters are not challenged right out their front doors.
But evil abounds and it has its justifications and psychopaths in some heavy numbers at the top. The shape shifters are in mind that they must reduce the population, not by millions but by billions by 2030 and certainly before 2050 or the threshold of earths habitability will be surpassed. Then not even the elite will be able to survive on a doomed planet according to their well paid scientists and the AI affirmation. So the designer war virus created at the North Carolina Level 3 lab did not do much–killed a few million. How about the revised and gain of function Spanish Flu that is now being kept in Level 4 Labs? This war virus will take on those in their prime of life. Will this new gain of function spare the children? The elite keep warning us as does Fauchi, gates man Friday, that we are due to see more pandemics. That is certain if he says so–Gates and Fauchi are on top of these vaccines and virus outbreaks.
So keep a few extra masks handy if you visit hospitals or are even allowed–most are not if it is a Covid death–wait until it is a Spanish Flu even and especially since these things are now made to go viral under war needs.
Saliente–take on criminals and criminal actions not because you need or necessarily will win but because they are criminals. In the final you do win since you will not allow your integrity and truth to be breached.
May the Irish Gods see your good and Jesus if he is looking–and may the Leprechaun visit the criminal Saliente
Sometimes the best thing is to be out of the loop–You can be a part of the problem when trying to understand a solution. But most of us know this.
I had become frustrated getting that heavy V-8 engine to line up in my Ford–when a feeling of frustration sets in, I experience has told me to back off and sleep on the situation–maybe even give it a few days, which I did. It is amazing since even though you have forgotten about the problem and have directed yourself to other projects and situations, the subconscious mind is at work solving the problem while your conscious is not even aware or concerned.
I was this morning going to put some handles on a knife but remembered I had also the project of getting that engine aligned and bolted up. I had two chain hoists hooked to rafters to manipulate the engine–so I decided to lift the truck and get it blocked higher giving me more elbow room underneath. Once underneath again, I saw what to do immediately to get the thing aligned–things I could not see or tricks to solve the problem of aligning the engine. Some paper stuffed up in there to hold the plate in place that kept falling down, some longer bolts and a flashlight to make sure the torque converter bolts aligned to the flex plate–a bit of moving the two come alongs and presto, I was able to draw that engine in perfectly. Before I had worked my butt off and was beginning to think that engine did not fit that bell housing of the transmission.
So it always works in any problem that needs a solution. Do refrain from pressing on if it seems like a blank wall. And your good Jesus said–do not worry too damn much about the future. Go ahead and predict it just as he said it is a good idea to sell your cloak and buy a sword–that is in Luke–and there is no rapture mentioned in the Bible—so figure on going though what ever tomorrow will bring. And according to his way of thinking all hell is going to eventually break loose with the demons of hell unleashed to boot. He said people are so strange to think about what they are going to do tomorrow or next week or next year–they have no clue–just take care of today was his advice. So if you don’t have your sword, it might be a good idea of getting one—especially with the obvious fact that the demons are already loosed.
No offense taken Joy–the truth will make us free.
Since we are aware of the Biblical accounts of the gods intermarrying with mankind, we wonder what happened to those blood lines. It is not only the Bible that speaks of these gods that existed before the flood and in their flying ships to other planets and did orbit the earth where they remained for a time in the skies until the flood receded. They returned to earth after a time to the area of Mesopotamia and reset civilization jealous of their bloodlines and careful to carry the ruling Masters of the Universe controls on the masses. They are of course not full gods having intermingled with mankind but their bloodlines exist and continue to this very day. You find them among the blue bloods as they are called–the Queen of England, other royalty and those like the Bush clan and the likes.
Occasionally they will let an outsider in since they know their interbreeding diminishes their bloodlines but their depravity and capacity to deceive and usurp the masses can never be matched by the common man.
The wars of the gods in heaven as recorded are real and continue–yet they are in collusion of deception to the world. You see heavy penalties to those that expose any of their evil manipulations–Assange and Snowden are examples but there are so many thousands of assassinations of rulers not in line with their objectives as you saw in Kadaffi, Kennedy, Solomeni and the list goes on to even lower level people. If it is not literal assassinations, it is character assassination and other methods that work through the black arts. The child trafficking we see among them is just one of their evils hidden from the masses.
But even more evil are the black arts of psychology used by these Masters of the Universe. As the Yaqui Shaman would say their greatest evil is that they have given us their mind. Until we understand that the door to freedom is closed. We live on a prison planet created by these blood line masters that have spun a web so tight that they have even created prisons within the prison in such a manner that only the grand daddy spider that I am watching at this moment can create to catch the fly. Once caught in the web the fly will be drained of his blood until he releases his life to the spider.
Right now the China lines are set to war and so also are the Trump puppet of the Anglo lines. If it means the sacrifice of millions of the masses and those Military do say a war with China will result in more deaths than WW2. It is not the blood lines that die in these wars–they are willing to sacrifice the blood of our youth and go on with no ill conscience at all–view Bush, Clinton, and Obama and even Trump with his already murderous acts, do you see any remorse in their killing of millions and thousands of our own youth. Certain they award the heroes of wartime and under pretense they were defending out country when in fact they were being used in the imperialistic ways of the war gods.
But that is how America is made Great–invade and occupy foreign lands, go into China Seas and kill Generals in other armies thousands of miles from our own seas. Yet I wonder are the war gods and Masters of the Universe at odds and do the China gods have their nukes parked off our shores.
Do not worry for those you believe that represent you–they will be deep underground with their families when the Shit Hits the Fan. And the Masters whether Chinese, German, English, American or even African will continue their evils.
To understand a bit of it is to understand the code–not only of silence but the code of deception that only the Masters are aware of. The penis of the Washington Monument excludes the feminine element but has written upon it codes and topped by the pyramid of rulership. At the peak atop are literally only a handful of Masters and as the steps go down and increase in area so does the gradual diminishing of knowledge until you find the very base where lies the masses–the final expendable slaves of the Masters.
Will there be rulers for peace, the people of the masses — a Telsi or a Ron Paul or a Jesse–you be the judge in this world of wars?
The penis symbol representing male domination is found atop churches as well. For instance the domination in many churches where women are not allowed in the inner sanctum–Mormons, Catholics and even most of the Protestant protestors carry the symbol and the actual practice. But much of the Matrix is hidden yet some bits and pieces of the codes are allowed. Forensic Geologist Scott Wolter also became a member of the Masonic Lodge and has explained some of what he knows at the low level of the secret society of the Knights Templar and is exploring ancient symbols such as the flagged X–a symbol that signifies Mary and the child of Jesus. Mary Magdelene the former wife of John who was murdered and being brother to John, Jesus was in line and by Jewish duty was obliged to take her on as a wife. There were two daughters of Mary–one by John and one by Jesus. That blood line is followed by the Merovingians in France and those are kept in secret with full knowledge of the Vatican and even painting by Michael Angelo and Wolter hasdone a study on it and deciphered some of the code–Leonardo de Vinci had painted in code the fact of the daughter of Jesus and a pregnant Mary–he did so but was in danger of the Vatican that did not want the facts out to the public. Go to Wolter’s You Tube lecture on the subject–he also traced the Knights Templars escape from the Vatican about the 1300’s when many were crucified and burned at the stake by the Catholic Church. The Kinsington stone found in Minnesota proved the Knights Templars had arrived in America about the early 1300,s –the exact date is on the stone which was called a fake since Historians had said Columbus discovered America–In truth the Vikings, the Irish and the Templars all had been here before Columbus. Anyhow, with the new techniques, Scott Wolter has proved the stone to be authentic despite the attempts for some to hide the true history. Of course the Indians were here before the white invaders.
So the Templars did bring over treasure in great amount and it is buried–Whether Oak Island is the place much treasure was hidden is unknown. But it is believed the Templars brought over the Holy Grail and perhaps even the Arc of the Covenant. Jesus was indeed the blood line of King David and King Solomon–and that bloodline has not ceased. Some are the gods–English, the Celts some in Ireland and Scotland, and others.
So may the Irish Gods bless you with wisdom and a free mind–the demigods and little gods inbred with humans have no humility and very little conscience except for their own and even among themselves they are unruly.
Saliente
Not feeling well enough to hike or do other chores this cool but smoke laded sky, I had to mull over the choices of the 30-33 degreed pyramid level flunkies that are allowed to challenge each other for the position of ruler of the what has deteriorated from a democratic republic to a tyrannical war fueled economic disaster.
The options offered are a movie star plagued psychotic episodes or an obvious con artist with both prone to lies and deceptions and both anxious to be the Bush type Commander in Chief retiring with war hero status after having caused the deaths of millions. The new offerings to run the country are as anxious as Bush was to feed the war industries with more of the billions that have now amounted to various estimates of up to ten trillion dollars spent of tax monies since the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
Now with 474 billion added to the war budget to create even more war machinery to enrich the war industrialists, we have two mentally challenged men that both want to wave the sword and have their hands on the nukes. The power to destroy vast amounts of humanity and even reduce the earth to a cinder attacks their war mongering imperialistic attitudes.
Oh it is depressing to see what is available knowing that I will leave children and many grand children behind to the likes of these unbalanced power players. And that is a tragedy knowing there are individuals that do care for humanity, want to work for the people and have a disdain for the long going illegal occupations of other countries under the guise that we are spreading democracy when it should be termed Demon Cracy instigated by the demons in office. Yet their puppeteers have been so astute and patient to lock up the political, judicial and legislative branches of government with their control and robbery of the common man and the countries wealth and wealth of other nations that to challenge them with an honest representative of the people is like the poor black man Fred surrounded with half a dozen police cronies with a knee on his neck begging for mercy. Those that have the gold make the rules and it is not only copper rules, it is military shut down when protests appear.
But do not think it is wrong to protest. Rather it is a duty of a good citizen when those in power have moved to corruption and tyranny. My meager protest will be either to write in a candidate–I refuse to vote for corporate bribed candidates that do not, have not and will not represent the people.
Saliente
Joy–we have Julian Assange for being a hero by exposing the war crimes of Obama and Hillary–knowingly and willingly killing of war correspondents and ordinary citizens in Iraq. Yet all this information of the many years of the persecution –6 now I believe he is emprisoned in the worst of conditions is coming to a head as to whether he will be extridited for exposing the war crimes of Obama and Hillary–namely in full knowledge of the killing of war correspondents and the wanton killing of citizens there yet covering the crimes up. They did not want to be exposed for being complicit and responsible. Well, Daniel Ellberg–now 89, came forward on the defense of Assange. He is now a hero for having been a big factor in saving thousands of lives of our soldiers and countless innocents in Viet Nam by leaking documents that were covering up war crimes–the similarity is almost identical since he was accused of being a criminal and spy and persecuted in the same manner. Has big media said anything about this? There was every effort and continues to be by that lower court judge to suppress Daniel Ellsberg from testifying but he at his age was able to get testimony in on Assange–another hero for exposing the murderous liars we have in office. In truth NY Times and Washington Post on their own published these leaks before Assange had carefully cleaned them –yet none of them were brought to task. You see the phonies we have running things and how the press is part of the corporate system–surprising they did not hold back on that one–but still not persecuted like Assange.
Your exposing these public servants that act like tyrants with the right to hide criminal actions and the truth has caused you much of the same type persecution–even death threats. For their withholding of information and willingness to cover the incident they become complicit in the crime. Just as Obama and Hillary are War Criminals–add the Bush people now well exposed for their chicanery–so anyone in the FS and state of Arizona officialdom involved in hiding and redacting information so the public is lied to, belong in the criminal archives.
It is the shame of this country that so much cover up, not only in police and fire land deaths, but in high offices where civilians in foreign countries are murdered under such terms as collateral damage–and we are talking about bus loads of kids, women and children–mostly poor and helpless people wanting only to live their lives in peace and without the illegal occupation of their countries by our troops just so the Amercan War Industrialists can profit and oil profits maintained. while we are now the major exporter of oil from our own oil fields.
Most of us were fooled by the Main Stream Media that flat out lied about the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars–they supported the lies of Bush and Cheney and their generals that could smile at the UN while knowingly telling lies to the World Leaders. And they continue to do so–Trump already ramping up and spreading all kinds of venom and lies in the name of making America Great Again. If invading and demonizing Venequela, Iran, China, and anyone that does not go along with these tactics is making America Great Again, I want no part of it. Assassinations of foreign leaders and generals in the name of making America Safe when it only incenses the people there and creates reprisals and more suffering for the poor by these sanctions to attempt to cause regime change is criminal. Yet we have no choice except the protests and to voice our objections.
So Joy, you go down as one of the heroes who will not stand for the false presentation and you continue to give us the actual practices that are prevalent in these cover up situations. Certain it will step on some toes that ought to be stomped on.
Saliente–Truth is God and God is Truth according to your Scripture if you read them.
Iran did avenge the death of their General Solomeni-(spelling?) –in fact three US bases in Iraq were hit by missile attacks and it is reported 40 of our American Soldiers were wounded–no deaths were reported if you can believe what the military reports these days. Millions of Iraqis have hit the streets as have Iranians–they want the illegal US bases out of their countries–and we ought to be immediately bringing home our good veterans for Iraq and Afghanistan as our wonderful Commander in Chief promised he would do. What a liar he is.
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/post/page-7-these-are-my-city-of-prescott-public-records-requests-descending-order-finish-dp-prr
Sonny- releasing this morning another document you can view it
give me one hour to get it from PDF to JPG—it is a lot of pages but it will be there and again so sorry for your loss-
More roadblocks and subterfuge Joy–Whew you have the patience of Job. Maybe a good thing since you have unmasked those involved in trying to continue to show Eric Marsh as a hero and the mismanagement of the Yarnell Wild Land Fire as laudable. I applaud your efforts and see that many do appreciate your work.
On the lighter side both my dogs survived the rattlesnake bite to their heads. Swollen like a balloon, but Scooter was looking good just overnight–must not be his first snake bite. But Whitey took two days for her head to look normal. Well they got lots of sympathy–and seems it did not affect them now that it is over after a few days.
Saliente
You have that right Joy–I would not take you to be one to fear after that experience.
Angie passed at 8:45 this morning. She was the wife of my five children. Well I actually had 5, one died at birth. So it truly is a sad occasion–she was my wife for 20 years and here was a person that started the first grade at 12 years not knowing English, and yet she graduated from Western New Mexico University with a masters degree–she counseled people so I am certain many were helped with her counsel. She had already gotten a degree as a beautician before we had divorced so went on from that to do more. My appreciation for being a part of that person’s life–we parted and our kids had pretty much grown up at the time– people change–life must go on and fate has its many quirks. I pay my respects and may she RIP and I am sad for her–she was much younger than I and I would have expected her to live to a hundred.
I see too much these days, too little concern for the people, very little concern for the environment. I watched a You-Tube documentary of George Wallace interviewing the British Author that had become an American Citizen— Aldous Huxley– during the years of the Nixon era, 1963, when TV was still black and white and so is the documentary. But he is describing the conditions of today that he predicted in that book he had written in 1931. If you have not watched the documentary, it is well worth the time to look up in You-Tube.
Things are moving fast in this world and I do believe the ones that call themselves masters of the Universe have ramped up the killing and know what they are doing through the foods, chemical dispersion, the war virus making, the pandemic, chem trails, forest burning and wildfires add the chemical retardants, psychological fear creation to cause illness, birth control, chemicals added to fuels, protest causing, wars ramped up, foods tampered with by adding chemicals detrimental to health, plastics and foods and water in plastics. So do not expect a friendly government to environment or the health of people, but do expect a friendly government to Corporate and War Industrialist interests, Bankers and people that own and profit from Wall Street and those world financiers that control the economies of small countries.
I have over time observed how government has increasingly moved from representing the people to representing corporate interests and the interests of those in Banking and the few that do operate at levels where they hold power over government officials. We have seen plenty of nefarious actions originating though our own government-and because of the exposure of their crimes–now recognized world wide, people have come to see this country rightly as a war mongering and aggressive imperialistic super power operating in a manner that challenged the British World Empire that weakened and took a back seat to America after WW2.
If you back off and look at our record since WW2 you would have to wonder how this country could be called a democracy and be forcing our so called democracy by war regime change methods to benefit ourselves and supposedly benefit the countries we force change upon–something we are attempting to do this very moment in Venezuela and Iran. But we are not a democracy–in fact we are exactly what Huxley predicted–a Corporate Oligarchy and added to that the Eisenhower predicted Military Industial Complex. And you will note, Eisenhower waited until his parting speech to say that–he knew the consequences had he said it during his tenure but his conscience made him speak.
Does it sound familiar to the wild land fire fighting group I wonder? You know as a teen ager in the 50’s the FS was already burning cabins in the forest. There were people on mining claims living and working small mines. There were squatters–many people do not know there is a law giving squatters rights–you could at the time under legal laws squat on a piece of land and after a time become the owner. But the idea was to get these squatters and small miners out of the forests–in fact even today much of the FS service attitude is that there should be no one in the forests or in rural areas–they all should be rounded up and put into urban areas.
If you look at all the burning in the US and the record of government agencies and their clandestine and nefarious goings on at top levels, one has to wonder are these things planned? I know when Barnett’s cabin was burned where he had lived some 30 years on a mining claim, the FS had waited until he had gone into town to do it. They were not ashamed to say they did it either–that was years ago in the Gold Gulch Area–but Joy and I saw it when we were in Dolan Springs. Joe there, a gold miner on claims that his family owned since the 1930’s told us that he went to his claims and had found that BLM had dozed his cabin and other buildings up into a pile of rubble–those were buildings that had been there for nearly a hundred years. We went there and truly there were fresh dozer tracks and his property was pushed into a pile of rubble.
Joe hired attorneys, but the fortune he will spend and the stress–his job as a black jack dealer in Las Vegas–the government gestapo are laughing at his efforts.
So I have to wonder whether the burning of California has much to do with moving people out of the forests and into the urban areas so they have better control of the masses. When you have people like Assange and Snowden being highly punished for showing what really is going on in Washington you begin to scratch your head as to what else does happen in government circles at the top levels concerning the reasons and resources at hand. There is just too much corruption at high levels. So, I am not at all surprised at the cover up of the reason of the deaths of the GMHS and the experiment and purposeful extreme unloading of retardant upon the residents of Yarnell and the 200 deaths associated with those retardant loads. The people involved are no dummies–they know exactly what they are doing.
These are my opinions–I respect yours and certainly do not expect most to entertain my opinions. Do your own research and whatever god you entertain, know that I have no objection to it. Integrity and truth are foundations to a good society and world–why I applaud Assange, Snowden, and people that stand up to exposing skulduggery and criminals. They are heroes attempting to return the power back to the people by exposing the criminals in high offices.
The effort to bring the American public down to third world level and poverty by Corporate and tyrannical controls and nefarious methods has brought on protests–we will see more in what Huxly called the Brave New World and Bush and his cronies deem the New World Order.
Saliente
Reply to charlie post on September 16, 2020 at 10:30 am
>> charlie wrote…
>>
>> Angie passed at 8:45 this morning. She was the wife of
>> my five children. Well I actually had 5, one died at birth.
>> So it truly is a sad occasion–she was my wife for 20 years
>> and here was a person that started the first grade at 12
>> years not knowing English, and yet she graduated from
>> Western New Mexico University with a masters
>> degree–she counseled people so I am certain many were
>> helped with her counsel. She had already gotten a degree
>> as a beautician before we had divorced so went on from
>> that to do more. My appreciation for being a part of that
>> person’s life–we parted and our kids had pretty much
>> grown up at the time– people change–life must go on
>> and fate has its many quirks. I pay my respects and may
>> she RIP and I am sad for her–she was much younger
>> than I and I would have expected her to live to a hundred.
I’m so sorry for your loss.
Sounds like she was an amazing woman.
My sincere condolences to you and the entire family.
Fágann an bás crá croí nach féidir le duine ar bith leigheas;
Fágann grá cuimhne nach féidir le duine ar bith é a ghoid.
( Death leaves a heartache no one can heal; )
( Love leaves a memory no one can steal. )
Sorry for your loss Sonny and family.
There is still much going on about the Yarnell Fire and no we will not put the terrible incident behind us. There are many still withholding facts, not the least would be Donut, yet to tell the truth and what he really knows–but his undependable reports are not as significant as the many who do have information and are of good character except they have been threatened or fear for their employment., or they just hang back not realizing the importance of the even and the truth that all that have information are morally bound to reveal.
Gary is writing his book and will include a chapter relating to the Fire. His book will not be about the Yarnell Fire per se, but his wild fire fighting experiences in general as I understand it. Still I am certain he would appreciate any information you might have about the Yarnell Fire that killed the GMHS crew for that chapter on Yarnell.
This part of John Daugherty’s site is devoted mostly to the Yarnell Incident, although John is a world traveler and has concerns of events that concern different aspects of life including environmental cover up operations, and general investigative work as well. He is a true investigative Journalist–willing to listen to testimony in many areas. I know he is intense and quick to listen of any new information about the fire. I would hope anyone not posting here or willing to give information would contact him. As a Journalist, he will keep your identity anonymous if that is what your prefer. I can understand, especially in government jobs that might be the only way one would give information.
Joy has written and still keeps in contact with me and some of those I find appropriate to post here. The killing of the GMHS crew has been a horrific tragedy for the world. Some of us, even common citizens such as myself have felt the loss and understand the significance of such a tragedy. So I will post a few of her emails to me–those appropriate to the Yarnell deaths of the 19.
Joy’s email expressing her own and my reaction to the deaths to another:
Sonny and myself due to health should have been died before the Weavers
God and as Sonny says his Irish Gods placed us there for a very specific reason.
We will never ask for a dime in all this
It should have never happened
Sonny breaks down to his knees and weeps EVERY SINGLE time we hiked on those Weavers after—
even though people kept knocking down our 19 monument- we kept rebuilding it
We never wanted attention
we just wanted the truth as we saw it
Okay, but it’s really simple basic things that you saw as eyewitness that day…that’s it. I’m not looking or writing about anything beyond that day and your personal observations as eye witnesses to WF history being made. Really basic, and really simple because that is what my book is going to be, really simple and really basic. BUT…I do want you to FOCUS on your health and not this.I am- I hired two private physicians from different offices and going to donate a pint tomorrow for the iron overload and as Sonny and I always said- Sonny was the one who said take a pic of that or this on June 30, 2013 and i did so he gets credit even though I took it of the vehicles, FFs/ WFs and terrain and such..he felt the importance—I just wanted to see the fire’s location…that simple. As the day progressed then John Dougherty’s YARNELLHIKERS videos says it all—Sonny felt it turned into a controlled burn…I saw the two go up Harper Canyon with drip torches and veer to the Peeples Valley direction and one was heavier set. I would not be shocked if it was Kristee lewis from Yarnell Fire Dept yet she will not do an interview but her mom showed me the pics and that is HOW I would not be shocked she was involved plus Sonny and I were witness to Kristee at the Senior Center that cored my BS court case with Amanda so there is more there to be shown—but to keep it simple…Sonny did not want to hike on SUnday after all the hikes that week so when he saw my stubbornness he got his stuff and came with me and we drove to McCrary’s and we both groggy entered the box canyon and he swiftly wanted to bear wallow thru—then where the men died my mom called and I told sonny he can go his way but i was scaling the boulders and base and gps’d the location of that decision..Sonny did not agree but just waking up he followed me and we scaled the base…the importance of that maneuvering was that area at a little after 8am Eric Marsh came out of the sme boulder wash area so was he just noticed in a scout move or did he come out that way from his truck—only Donut can really say there—but then we spoke to Marsh then again when he tied pink ribbons then on the top near mystery man—then we passed the gmhs then i went to a boulder area to pee and you know then we sat on certain part of the ridges into the afternoon—I observed skunk fire from the old mine area and the drip torch to the Harper Canyon, I observed too many types of aircraft in the air at the same time, I observed near miss, fire tornadoes, dozers, fire trucks, and WFs / FFs and UTVs and the retardant being dropped on the fire (GMHS did) and Marsh’s hands went up in air like he was upset, I observed mystery man and photographed him but been told he does not exist, I observed fire move at a rapid pace. I observed movement of people at the Helms when we were in that area now called the Observation Desk on the 2 track ridge that day, I observed bear wallowing terrain not 10 ft tall like Willis stated—there is patched like that by the Shrine to Peeples Valley area though…not the box canyon. I observed much activity on Sesame street and part of the Helms. I observed the extreme heat going into 11AM and I noticed the squirrely winds through that day on and off and the storm was seen in the distance and I saw tornado swirling of flames devour harper canyon after the 2 FFs walked towards peeples valley- 1 heavier and shorter. I saw Steed and the men at ease most of that day from our view point—i saw skunky smoke over by peeples end of the weavers to the old mine…I saw later identified as Frisby on the UTV coming up to talk and taking a Ff back…I saw Donut’s face as Sonny said his death march comment and Stern magazine identified it was donut’s face hat sonny even made that comment and he is alive- the rest are dead—I observed pink flagging—I observed rocks on the ground with pink flagging too…I observed as we reached the car flying embers felt like rain…I felt spent by 2pm and we both helped another scale down large boulders into dense patches of bushes and the heat was much. Sonny allowed me on Acri’s property to rest in a wash but when he saw that smoke that i took a pc of (windmill pic) by the helms- he said we gotta go now—so his common sense and passion for staying alive kept us going…I was heat stroked by that moment. I felt when I got in the car and saw the chaos of people all over and the low level the smoke laid where it was hard to see and flying embers again felt like rain hitting my skin. I saw much chaos by Dorman’s area…I saw the gates of hell as we left glen ilah and looking back- In the start of the day the smells to the air were different—carbon smoke infested the late day and it was felt—I got in the car and I smelt plastic burning and heard much hissing noises nearby (Silva’s to Truman to Overmeyer area)- I saw an RV leaving. In the start of the day it just looked like a skunky fire and if i was not trained in satellites like I am now- I can share the degrees and origins and all lead up to man made fires not original fire and I am firm much of the YHF was just that and this year at the Hotshot Sup Staff Ride- it was confirmed I was correct that the whole day was planned to burn to hwy 89 and box it in large. They had set to do that from the get go and that needs to be public not on the Staff Ride and one of my good trusted friends heard that on the Staff Ride and so yeah it should be revealed in their documentary soon—within the next few months—and I saw much activity out on the spur roads out by Peeples but only Sesame Road to the Pumpkin area is what I saw activity for I have those pics..The sense of urgency lacked in crucial moments and I think that also should be addressed. Storm here so have to log off
I should clarify– that was Joy’s answer to Gary. The answer I felt appropriate to his site. Joy has had health issues as have the greater part of Yarnell after the retardant dumping on Yarnell of 2013 and again in 2015 with the second wild fire there. The deaths of elderly from the retardant challenges the death toll ratio of Covid 19–and in fact kills at a much higher ratio in the elderly. As Marsh with his careless orders that killed his crew so should the people that order the poisonous retardant dumps near residences be held accountable. Especially looking at the death and sickness toll at the small village of Yarnell, these people that disperse these chemicals that are deadly to older folk and not healthy for anyone have to know what their chemicals are doing. I have to believe not only the phosphate and ammonium chemicals are at blame but also the hidden chemicals under so called trademark laws. Up to 15% of Okay, but it’s really simple basic things that you saw as eyewitness that day…that’s it. I’m not looking or writing about anything beyond that day and your personal observations as eye witnesses to WF history being made. Really basic, and really simple because that is what my book is going to be, really simple and really basic. BUT…I do want you to FOCUS on your health and not this.I am- I hired two private physicians from different offices and going to donate a pint tomorrow for the iron overload and as Sonny and I always said- Sonny was the one who said take a pic of that or this on June 30, 2013 and i did so he gets credit even though I took it of the vehicles, FFs/ WFs and terrain and such..he felt the importance—I just wanted to see the fire’s location…that simple. As the day progressed then John Dougherty’s YARNELLHIKERS videos says it all—Sonny felt it turned into a controlled burn…I saw the two go up Harper Canyon with drip torches and veer to the Peeples Valley direction and one was heavier set. I would not be shocked if it was Kristee lewis from Yarnell Fire Dept yet she will not do an interview but her mom showed me the pics and that is HOW I would not be shocked she was involved plus Sonny and I were witness to Kristee at the Senior Center that cored my BS court case with Amanda so there is more there to be shown—but to keep it simple…Sonny did not want to hike on SUnday after all the hikes that week so when he saw my stubbornness he got his stuff and came with me and we drove to McCrary’s and we both groggy entered the box canyon and he swiftly wanted to bear wallow thru—then where the men died my mom called and I told sonny he can go his way but i was scaling the boulders and base and gps’d the location of that decision..Sonny did not agree but just waking up he followed me and we scaled the base…the importance of that maneuvering was that area at a little after 8am Eric Marsh came out of the sme boulder wash area so was he just noticed in a scout move or did he come out that way from his truck—only Donut can really say there—but then we spoke to Marsh then again when he tied pink ribbons then on the top near mystery man—then we passed the gmhs then i went to a boulder area to pee and you know then we sat on certain part of the ridges into the afternoon—I observed skunk fire from the old mine area and the drip torch to the Harper Canyon, I observed too many types of aircraft in the air at the same time, I observed near miss, fire tornadoes, dozers, fire trucks, and WFs / FFs and UTVs and the retardant being dropped on the fire (GMHS did) and Marsh’s hands went up in air like he was upset, I observed mystery man and photographed him but been told he does not exist, I observed fire move at a rapid pace. I observed movement of people at the Helms when we were in that area now called the Observation Desk on the 2 track ridge that day, I observed bear wallowing terrain not 10 ft tall like Willis stated—there is patched like that by the Shrine to Peeples Valley area though…not the box canyon. I observed much activity on Sesame street and part of the Helms. I observed the extreme heat going into 11AM and I noticed the squirrely winds through that day on and off and the storm was seen in the distance and I saw tornado swirling of flames devour harper canyon after the 2 FFs walked towards peeples valley- 1 heavier and shorter. I saw Steed and the men at ease most of that day from our view point—i saw skunky smoke over by peeples end of the weavers to the old mine…I saw later identified as Frisby on the UTV coming up to talk and taking a Ff back…I saw Donut’s face as Sonny said his death march comment and Stern magazine identified it was donut’s face hat sonny even made that comment and he is alive- the rest are dead—I observed pink flagging—I observed rocks on the ground with pink flagging too…I observed as we reached the car flying embers felt like rain…I felt spent by 2pm and we both helped another scale down large boulders into dense patches of bushes and the heat was much. Sonny allowed me on Acri’s property to rest in a wash but when he saw that smoke that i took a pc of (windmill pic) by the helms- he said we gotta go now—so his common sense and passion for staying alive kept us going…I was heat stroked by that moment. I felt when I got in the car and saw the chaos of people all over and the low level the smoke laid where it was hard to see and flying embers again felt like rain hitting my skin. I saw much chaos by Dorman’s area…I saw the gates of hell as we left glen ilah and looking back- In the start of the day the smells to the air were different—carbon smoke infested the late day and it was felt—I got in the car and I smelt plastic burning and heard much hissing noises nearby (Silva’s to Truman to Overmeyer area)- I saw an RV leaving. In the start of the day it just looked like a skunky fire and if i was not trained in satellites like I am now- I can share the degrees and origins and all lead up to man made fires not original fire and I am firm much of the YHF was just that and this year at the Hotshot Sup Staff Ride- it was confirmed I was correct that the whole day was planned to burn to hwy 89 and box it in large. They had set to do that from the get go and that needs to be public not on the Staff Ride and one of my good trusted friends heard that on the Staff Ride and so yeah it should be revealed in their documentary soon—within the next few months—and I saw much activity out on the spur roads out by Peeples but only Sesame Road to the Pumpkin area is what I saw activity for I have those pics..The sense of urgency lacked in crucial moments and I think that also should be addressed. Storm here so have to log offhidden chemicals that likely include some of the more deadly parts of the orange slop. But you can bet that with the Billions made from these things world wide dispersion will not be denied these people. Like the Big Pharma people with their vaccines and pills and the chemical companies that supply many of the chemicals added to retardant and medicines, they will continue even when they know a certain product is dangerous. Check out the truth of Monsanto for one and the Pharma that distributed Thalidomide and other chemicals–they continued distributing as much as ten more years even knowing their medicines were causing deaths or thalidomide babies. The do this by keeping the cases in court with delays and deceptions. For example Thaldomide was licensed in Britain in 1958 but doctors in Austrailia noticed the connection to birth defects by 1961 and took measures to stop its use. Yet still up to 2003 in Brazil poor areas as well as African areas it was still being used. Babies were being brought in after the use with the horrible mutations we see of people that suffered it.
Because of these incidents, in our richer societies it became necessary for proper scientific testing to be done on these pills Pharma puts out. A proper test requires 8-12 years before a medicine can be determined with scientific testing to be safe. So you take your god damned vaccines that they are going to give without proper testing and I hope your chances turn out better than I suspect. This one is going to attach and change DNA with the new advanced technology. But the point is these companies make their billions and even with knowledge of the terrible things some of the products have done continue to put them on the market. So do your research because they do not mind paying a couple hundred million in fines if they are going to make near about a trillion in profits. That is just business cost to them.
And the attitude with too many including the Bill Gates Crowd is that the world is too overpopulated now. He has fostered huge grants to disperse population reducing drugs–so will this vaccine also be a possible solution there? Call us conspirators if you like but I am not going to trust corporations that already have a record of mayhem and murder with knowledge of what their products were doing including Tobacco companies that continue on even to this day. They are akin to the people that fool the public with propaganda so they can make the huge war profits by terrorist acts on citizens of foreign countries. But unless people do the research and many are these days, they believe these bastards to be heroes saving humanity. Shit.
Saliente
I apologize for the insertion and I do not know how that happened –should have re read before posting so skim what had been pasted before of an email from Joy.
https://youtu.be/L3L9Ew-GmaQ
this video above should be sent to every Prescott Government Employee and Fire Department and District Employee and Firefighter and to many many local Fire Departments that worked June 30, 2013…
You guys know who you are—you will forever disappoint me until you “speak up”
and if I could share every memorial and funeral on the aftermath to our communities- I would require you also to see that in addition to the above video.
You make me ill.
Sick people.
Sad –yet we know how much this tragedy has affected families. My own granddaughter had to grow up without her Dad –also an event that cause his death from careless management. Truth is the only solution to advance safety measures and make sure bosses will use them in lieu of needlessly risking their crews as was evident in the killing of the GMHS crew.
Fortunately Gary Olson is writing a book about his experiences. If there is one thing certain, Gary is fearless when it comes to telling the truth and events as they really are. He is also devoting a full chapter to the Yarnell Hill Incident–so there will be no please the crowd reporting–he tells things as they are and with his many years in the Federal investigative field and his life as a wild land fire fighter, you can be they will be accurate. I am certain it will be a wild land fire fighter must read book.
Here is some good news in all the bad. However, it will make the non choice corporate puppet Democrats and Republicans unhappy since Alaska has 4 electoral votes. Jesse Ventura will be listed there on the Green Party–a party that previously had only a million votes I think. But with Jesse wanting us out of the wars we are involved and also with concerns for the environment, people in Alaska might well express their dislike for those things. He being a Navy Seal and plenty of experience in the political world might just win those votes. and get make a dent in the Corporate thieves that are stealing the wealth of this nation and bringing the middle class and poor to poverty.
Those corporate elite and world bankers that own the politicians have hoarded the wealth to themselves and have bailed themselves out with the trillions that tax payers will owe leading us into an economic depression that they will care less about by locking themselves away in whatever hideaway they choose in whatever country they feel safest. NYC has already had massive movements of Billionaire out of Billionaire row with their housing vacated and up for sale –you can get a 140 million home at a bargain of 70 million now. in that area–Hollywood is doing the same although something like 40% of Californians are leaving due to the economy downturn and caused by the economic situation and Covid 19.
My Dad lived through the depression–He had a small grocery and gas station so survived pretty well, yet his brother had to join a CCC camp working as a laborer in the forest building rock dams and the like to eat and have a few dollars to send back to his family of 9 kids. Sadly, Uncle Charlie was killed in an accident and his widow and 9 kids had it hard. But Dad said the times were hard with people living much like the people you see homeless now in Los Angeles and other places.
That depression lasted for ten years but this one has an even greater bubble with the 25 trillion bubble and people in debt–yet many lured into the stock market with it making record highs yet can burst overnight. It did make Dad frugal–he would not get into debt at all–he bought Mom a Cadillac after he had been in business for 20 years in Las Cruces. He walked in with 5,253 silver dollars saved on time and bought her that 1953 Cadillac. Because he leased his property so he could live the life of a prospector, he would drive that Cadillac up into the rough country of Saw Mill Canyon so it would set outside his tent there near his mine. But people these days are all in debt for the most part with the banks raking in big interest and now foreclosing on many homes.
The Corporate Giants and banks are being bailed out but the student loans that will never be able to be paid back will have no bail outs. Nor will the middle class or the poor classes as the Corporate elite tuck themselves away behind their locked gates to weather the storm after the war enterprises and Corporations have left the taxpaying public holding the bag–a very empty one at that.
So I say yea to Jesse–but I understand many states will not allow write in candidates–I will check with New Mexico and only because it is to protest since I realize the Corporate puppets have their game down pat to maintain the controls
Those of us in our later years respect experience. Bathides are nice but they do not necessarily say much and book knowledge without experience says little. We expect a man to have a minimal amount of time on the job before he can be trusted to preform well and especially when it comes to leading men into situations that experience and wisdom is need to keep them safe. No where would that be more evident than on the battlefield or in wild land fire fighiting. In minining I can speak much but those retired from the wild land fire fighting have a good idea of who would qualify to be trusted with the lives of 20 men or perhaps several crews of 20. Even with the much learning I have assimilated by association and reading the posts and even some books on wild land fire fighting, it would take years of actual on the job experience to be capable of managing a crew properly and keeping them alive in wild land fire fighting situations. Likewise if I were a young fellow wanting to fight fires, then I think a minimum of actual on the job wild land fire fighting would be what I would want to see in my boss. I would also want to know his record and if indeed he were an individual that cared for his crew and was not prone to take on jobs that older and more experienced men would reject on the grounds the assignments were too risky for their crew–and especially a crew boss that was prone to skirt the common sense safety rules taught and expected to be followed in the wild land fire fighting operations. It is a shame that the Forest Service and Wild Land Fire Fighter division honchos are prone to hide breaches of safety so much goes unreported–the good old boy attitude and police type cover the back of your buddy no matter how rotten his actions are extends too much to the wild land fire fighting actions. However if you read RTS and Honda you will know some did complain about Marsh and certainly there are others that were reported on–something that should be readily available for new people and the public. The public cares about the lives of fire fighters–certainly even more than some of the bosses that had been taking chances with their crews lives for their own glorification.
But that is not what I intended to address–we do it so often, but then if you leave off the pressure people forget in a hurry and new ones read the new posts that never will research the old.
The world situation is not good now–very bleak in places–if you look at Venezuela and Iran, there are thousands of people that are even emmigrating from their countries to find food and some small pittance to support their families. Our country due to Bush, Clinton, Obama and now the Trump symptom has murdered thosands of literally impoverished poor that only are trying to subsist. We did it in Viet Nam by carpet bombing–an attitude of our leaders to bring into submission the leaders of those countries to our demands by the blood bath of thousands of men women and children. We know now that the Gulf of Tonkin was a lie to get us going in our murder incorporated terrorist acts. We know now that Bush and cronies such as Colin Powell and the Kissenger talks all were very aware that there was no credible evidence that Saddam had nukes—the twin tower ordeal was their excuse to hit Afghanistan and Iraq when they knew full well the Saudis were the major players and providers of terrorists that brought the twin towers down. So the press went along with these atrocities because the war profits for Cheney, Bush and the whole war manufacturing and profiting entities with regime change wars all works to feather the beds of a coalition of Banks, Billionaires, Corporate executives, political puppets bribed by political contributions and even under the table donations, and a press controlled by corporate interests and a police force and CIA part of the mix to foster these wars that wind up being a tragedy for the poor and now the middle classes. The blood bath continues and Trump even wants to increase it more–he is an astute business man and profits above environment, lives and sanity when the tax payer is feeding these corporate war mongers and regime change imperialists.
But the best speakers are those that were on the front lines of these regime change wars. One of the best is Cris Hedges–a 15 year NY Times war correspondent who was in just about every country there was a war and was privy to inside information. He got fed up with the lies being fed the American Public and with 15 years experience he began reporting the truth about the blood baths and terroristic actions of our own country. Things the government does not want you to know as Jesse Ventura puts it.
If you value the words of people that have years of experience in their field and will not sacrifice their own integrity to foster a lie then if you have not already given ear to some of Cris Hedges talks, you must if you value truth. Like Dr. Ted Putnam, he chose his own integrity over his job security and had to walk away from a job he loved and when it was providing him the finest wages and opportunities of advancement. But now he lets it all hang out and he expose the truth of what is happening and going on behind closed doors.
His talks are under You Tube an easy search–he would be a Christian in faith, his father a Presbyterian minister although he is not light on the Christian sects such as the Trump phony religious pose with the Bible. Do not kid yourself, his god is the dollar. If you listen to his talk, you will be hard put not to enjoy insider information from a wise man in his field of reporting.
Saliente
Several errors there but you know them–Trump’s god is the dollar and It is Cris Hedges talk that rings true.. and minining is mining and so forth but most of you are A students in college English so when my typewriter leaves off the s sometimes as Gary would say–China speak–then you understand. I hope when I learn Irish in the next life I am more careful–maybe there is a subconscious bitterness of the potatoe famine treatment the Royaty of England gave the Irish allowing millions of Irish to die the horrible death of famine while they had plenty and even excess. Instead they enjoyed watching the deaths by hunger of millions and refused aid even punishing anyone that might give aid.
WE are doing the same to Venezuela, treating Mexicans like dogs where you separate mothers from their children and refuse aid to those in need while our war mongering politicos give huge bail outs to banks and provide 474 billion dollars for war mongering and regime change Political Corporate puppets. Empathy and care for your neighbor in foreign lands has changed to murder and devastate the poor and weak to change the regime. WE are no better in honor than were the British during the Irish potato famine that began in 1849 and lasted 10 years.
But you be the judge–your research may lead you to respect the despot we have as a leader and those that preceded him. On my part I do appreciate a person such as this Cris Hedges or a Jesse Ventura or a war hero like the Senator and Major Telsie Gabbard that the main media and the war mongering political corporate puppet Demos and Repubs and the subservient press do not want you to hear.
Thimerosol –my daugter had just called and reminded me of the name of the mercury used in Flu Vaccines. It is always good to get a call from Melissa since she has worked in the Pharma industries as well as management for many years. She has knowledge of the various medicines and vaccines –She does not take the flu vaccine because her experience with one ended in an experience perhaps as bad as the flu itself.
I had to ask her about the Kemo my son is taking. She said she would not take it herself if she were to fall ill with cancer. I know that is the same answer that many doctors that administer Kemo say as well. There are many poisons involved and although the body might generate the chemicals to help combat the cancer, there is always the trade offs like loosing hair, being constantly sick and so on. I think in good old American, we have the right to research and see if something is what we would allow or not.
That comes down to the flu shot. I am glad I did not take one since I have never taken one that I am aware of–who knows they might have shot me when I was under intensive care for various heart attacks and having a shot gun wound to the back. But if I had one lately and had gotten a fever as people usually do after a shot, then I would have walked in to get some skin cancers removed and when that girl puts a temperature gauge to my forehead and saw the fever she would have screamed Covid 19.. Of course I would have been refused treatment for the cancers and the cops would have been called, an ankle bracelet applied and I would have been ordered home on quarantine for umpteen days.
So what of the new vaccine? Are you game to take it? What will it have beside the mercury, aluminum and formaldehyde additives. Will it be the usual fetal cells infected with the designer war virus 19 or will it be the sometimes monkey puss they add to the concoctions they invent. I do not know if they will give you a low level Covid 19 infection or some other means to stir up a mild Cytokine Storm. Either way, I think I will refuse on grounds that I have already been dead at least twice–heart attack and gunshot– and now my immune system at 76 is not the greatest around. A low level Cytokine event might be just enough to push me down the 6 ft. fall to the world of the darkness–something I did experience when I was there before.
So let me die my way–you bastards that want to force vaccines on people better let them know all the ingredients involved as well as the risks. And if they are game to get them fine with me. But I know Big Pharma has a propensity to lie to people, do shabby testing of their medicines and vaccines and reap the profits without conscience. I have seen too many thalidomide people–and so guaranteed I won’t be recommending birth control pills–but if your doctor does then you be the judge.
None of the designer vaccines slated will have any double blind tests–they are vaccinating volunteers–you will find plenty if you promise them a blanket, a toy or a few dollars–the world is desperate now in the poor sections. They will be tested only on the most robust people to make them look good. I guarantee they will not allow old gramps to get one or a smoker, or a Micky Dee habitual diner, a couch potatoe, or a person on other meds to take the test. Yes I know it will take some looking to find the best specimens to test the vaccine on–but there are a few out there and that is all they need–a few good men.
So any doctor worth his beans will tell you that a valid test of a vaccine will take up to ten years to verify its safety. But Fauchi, that wonderful quack under direct orders of Bill Gates will tell you we must do something immediately. Gates is no dummy–you do not make money until his vaccine is injected. Then the people can be billed or the governments alternatively if the people are poor, and the tax bill can go up. We hope the vaccine has effect but by the time it is administered no one will know if it is the natural cycle of the disease such as flu has or if the abatement is due to the vaccine. Of course the vaccine will go head line news that it is the hero to the peoples cause and has Gates and Fauchi are the saviours of mankind.
I am a hard sell on this thing. I love America as much as Ireland. I think we all have a brain, maybe even half will do with some research. We ought to have a choice in this country but under corporate fascist rule and propaganda tuned in by most elite well paid corporate psychologists, most of the masses will be convinced it is a crime if you do not take the war designed Covid 19 vaccine. Well if Fauchi and Gates recommends it–why not? I will leave that for you to decide.
Saliente
That should have read up to ten years of scientific testing including double blind tests before a vaccine is allowed to be allowed on the market and administered to humans.
The testing being done is on very healthy individuals. Shit at the prime of health, few would be killed by the most deadly poisons. However, if you look at Yarnell you will see that a third of the town is now dead after 7 years when hundreds of thousands of gallons of Phos Chek were dispersed on the town and around it during the wild fire of June 2013. Like the Covid 19, the retardant killed the elderly–affected all since some younger did die and many are ill from the effects. So yes they can test the Covid vaccine on healthy people, but like the retardant, Covid 19 is deadly to the elderly. None of them over I think 65 and a very few in older category–one guy I read of 65 was very sick but survived after hospitalization) will undergo the tests–it will only be given to the healthy So WTF? How is this going to help the ones that are in grave danger from Covid 19 or any other such disease. They are also in grave danger of taking the vaccine as are the younger that are smokers, Micky Dee eaters, couch potatoes and ill from other factors.
But the Gates and Pharma Doctors will tout this shit to high heaven. Lord have mercy and may they pass me by this time. I intend to live a few more years–76 just seems so short.
Well…I have some good news for everyone! I called Geico and I’m going to save a ton of money on my car insurance AND you can find an update on my website and book at the following link, so check it out!
http://www.ourfiregods.com/
Because I was a practicing professional therapist for a number of years in Las Cruces, Alamogordo and El Paso, I know the law regarding dealing with people that report dangerously and could possibly harm others or themselves and these days also included are child abuse cases. To not do so can hold the therapist criminally and civilly liable. I am no longer in that line of work– 50 states have the requirement.
You never know what a mine cave in can do to change your life.
And interestingly when I managed a half way house in Las Cruces I did get some horrible cases. One was a man paroled out–his story was for bashing his baby against the wall during an alcoholic tirade with his wife. So I am used to dealing with offenders–and my time working for adult probation as a counselor brought me many strange cases–as did the Alamogordo work counseling alcohol and drug offenders. So, yes I think in those years I could write a book about those cases and do know something about abnormal behavior. We all have a tad of it, but nothing to the extremes a counselor sees.
This does bring back some memories–one was a man who came to me with problems he did not reveal soon enough. He wound up killing himself and his 9 year old daughter by forcing her to drink draino and finished off the job himself. Another I actually went to a trailer and took the double barrel shotgun out of a mans mouth that was about to blow himself away. I had some guilt about the black guy I mentioned that killed his wife–but I had no way of know how dangerous he was at the time–people can hide their shit and it can take some time to help them get it out.
For those interested in counseling NMSU taught what was called Rogerian Therapy by a man named Carl Rodgers. In the finality of it a therapist makes up his or her own methods to help people. I never liked the Rogers approach that I call the parrot approach. Maybe they changed it but no matter you study a number of approaches and the final analysis is that the best counselors are those that genuinely care for their patients–it is hard to care for someone that killed their baby that way. But you do your best and you hope you made some difference in someone’s life to make it better.
This world is full of challenges–there is plenty of violence and sickness out there–Freud believed 9 out of 10 were in need of psychological help. Maybe he was right–others have said whole societies are sick. Either way, you don’t have to be a pro to be good at helping people–just care.
There is much to be done but do it right is the best thing.
That should have read killed his baby 9 years old. It was a way of getting at his wife in a bad divorce–divorces are not easy–I ought to know.,
Whew–how we tend to put horrible events in our subconscious and things we want to forget are sometimes much there. My last job as a therapist was in Alamogordo and at that time I was going through a divorce with a long time marriage. This woman kept calling my work place owner enough he told me he had to let me go though he would give me good marks for my work.
Politics and lies are so much tied together. I had left a home that I had purchased on the golf course on a bicycle but this lady was not happy that I would leave everything behind to her and the kids and do that. Well there was not much alternative at the time and if you knew her, you would understand. But we wish everyone the best and sometimes we do not make the best decisions in picking a partner–especially early on in life.
Anyway to correct the story about the fellow that killed his 9 year old, I found out later that his wife had accused him of molesting his daughter. This would all be of police records–he never had his day in court and this information I did not have at the time of working with his case. People are prone to keep that kind of information quiet even with their counselor. The fellow that had killed his baby had served 9 years before getting paroled out–a certainly humbled and reserved individual–he carried a heavy burden of guilt and it was indeed rage, drugs and alcohol that were part of his horrible crime.
We are in a terrible time in this country the way I see it. Many of us are OK or even better than OK financially and with good attitude, though some of us elderly somewhat diminished in our physical health. Most of the wild land fighter group have faced and overcome enough adversity that nothing bothers their attitude to any big degree and the majority of the retired and those along in years of experience are looking out for the younger fellows. Truth and direct approach are the only things to present when it comes to keeping them safe. Hiding facts and reasons for deaths will not do–reputation saving is for the weak and not permissible.
You have to look at Kenosha–certainly the cronies in police work covering for a cop that shot a young man–was he still a teen ager–in the back 7 times. No less than a cowardly attack and that man should have been charged with attempted murder very quickly. It was obvious that the cop and his partner could have easily tackled that young man and had him to the ground and handcuffed with their training in police work.
Then you have the 17 year old taking an AR-15 down the street among Black Lives Matter protesters. It reminds you of Marsh taking his crew down into a dead end canyon choke full of brush to flank a megafire that he knew they would soon be facing head on if they did not hurry double time through the brush. Willis likely believed that wild land fire fighters could easily get through that brush as he testified -=-and I suppose since he groomed Marsh, Marsh also believed the same.
To give you our own observations that day–we were behind Marsh as he went up from the bottom of the mountain on the Sesame Street dirt track to the fire edge. I was amazed at his agility and stamina–we were hikers and I was in top shape yet I thought wow–I do not know if I could get anywhere near that guy going up–and you know Joy has often compared me to a mountain goat in my mountain abilities before the Yarnell Fire on our mountain hikes.
Yet when we passed the men I commented to Joy they looked like they were on their death march. But it was a hot morning already and when we first saw them they appeared as so many ants at the bottom of the mountain and to be fair if I had been in full gear in that heat with a pack on my back and having to be in lock step with the others I certainly would have been upset as well. Especially since I know now their earlier long days and hours of fire fighting. They were going beyond the time of fighting fires without rest yet the honchos had demanded their presence at Yarnell.
So we see the bad judgement of that 17 year old–there he goes stupidly into a mass of people protesting with his weapon. Legally I believe he had the right–then we see the idiots attack him from behind and he is shooting off the ground likely in that case to save his own life–when he should have never been there in the first place. It is what the young fire fighter would have done that had little experience–he would have gone down into that trap and gotten himself killed–well they all did–they followed the Orders of Marsh and his bosses requesting them to head to the ranch and then at the protest of Steed they finally made the fatal decision.
Well common sense does go a long ways. I am reminded of a truth that Ted Putnam told me when he was a smoke jumper and fighting a fire–he was in the presence of two young fire fighters not on his team but fighting the fire. Those young fighters got orders from their team boss to move down into a canyon but Ted was on the spot with them. With his years of experience he saw that they were headed into an area that was likely to be burned over–certainly a trap situation you would not want to be in. Those guys tried to defy his judgement but with some stern terms Ted was able to stop them–I do not know if later they came and thanked him for saving their lives.
I never got a manuscript from Dr. Ted on his investigation of the Mann Gulch Fire–It was not like the State of Montana and Forest Services portrayed it so as to not have to pay the victims wives and families. In fact as I understood it was a Federal Employee of the Forest Service that caused the deaths–his manuscript and long time investigation gave the details of all the false information the State there presented in order to save face and money.
These death investigative methods have been so the norm is to arrange them to preserve Forest Service Wild Land Fire Fighting reputations and do it under the idea that people are heroes no matter what they do even to carelessly killing their own crews. The lawyers and others willingly go along and excuse themselves by saying they are saving the tax payer monies. But it has no justification and in the long run costs more lives and more taxpayer money.
Truth can not be bargained with.
Stay safe Saliente
I forgot to add about the Dr. Ted incident–that area did burn over to where the young firefighters were going to go even with Ted protesting–they would have faces certain death–so now you know and had Ted justly received an award for saving those lives?
Another question comes to mind about the Yarnell incident–Why was Steed so vehement against the decision of Marsh to descend into the trap box canyon from where he and his crew stood on the box canyon that day. I know why, because I stood there and argued with Joy one her decision to descend in that direction. . I was very uneasy at the time I was standing even there on the two track–I even left stubborn Joy that wanted to descend that direction and then at the top of the Weavers felt the wind changing and had to go back to retrieve Joy. She does not know but at that time I resented it because I knew it was a big risk yet it had to be done or she would be toast.
She said it took me 40 minutes to get back–and there she was with her boots off but this time I was not in a mood to be argued with so she did get her boots on and follow me up over the Weavers. So indeed we had lost about 60 minutes of escape time.
Yet what was Steed already seeing that had him so adamant against dropping down with his crew after we had abandoned that very spot on the two track some time earlier? I can bet a dollar to a donut that he was not only knowledgeable that the wind was about to change but he was already seeing flames and burnouts not far from the Helms Ranch. He had to know it would be a mad dash, albeit down hill.
The view from the two track where they were at to be fair is deceiving. It is only about a half mile trek as the crow flies, but unless you have had experience to know the danger of trying to outrun a fire in almost impassible manzanita brush about to reverse and come at you, you might just nonchalantly drop off thinking this is going to be a fast easy hike to the ranch. You can double time a half mile in under 5 minutes I would say-but remember Joy and I took above three hours just to trek from that Ranch to where we met Marsh at the bottom of a canyon that is only one canyon over from the death spot. I have not measured the distance exactly but we had hiked only about two miles and a mile and a half of that in the heavy brush manzanita–often crawling on our bellies to get through and in a number of places having to back track to get around some mazes that were impassible by any human without a bulldozer or spending hours with a chain saw.
So Jesse knew–yet caved to bad judgement–Marsh had no excuse on this homicide.
These of course are my observations and opinions about the cause of the deaths–Willis and others have their differing speaks–but I think they know better.
There might be some fresh air–Jesse Ventura is heavily leaning toward running for President on a separate ticket. Watching the antics and lies coming from both sides of the aisle, I would welcome his move. However I think Telsie would be the better President with Jesse the VP. Either way it would be good to see them both in office. We are on the brink of war and if you did not notice China parading its military might it is likely because the main media is not going to let you see it. If Trump can’t pick a war with Iran then he might well get one out of China after moving most of our Navy including nuclear subs and aircraft carriers armed to the teeth with nukes into China’s Seas. Those cheering for Trump may be screaming for a fall out shelter if they are not already vaporized. China has much better nukes and ways to deliver them than we know.
I was checking on these past Presidents–the only one in recent times that belonged to Freemasonry was Gerald Ford. I had wondered about that since I have relatives on my mother’s side that were Freemasons out of Texas. One thing Freemasons are not liars and so I had to wonder how Bush, especially Bill Clinton, Obama Nixon, etc. were into deception an lies to the people they represent. Well truth was that Bill Clinton did attend a youth thing (DeMolay) the Masons have but he never became an initiate Good thing for him because the Mason Lodge would have kicked his ass out in a hurry with his and Hillary’s BS.
This country was founded on Masonic principles–one of which is honesty and truth. You had to know that Washington and at least 8 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were lodge members. Some say 52 of the 56 signers of the document were Masons.
So there you have it–no George Washingtons in these late Presidents–though we did have one honest Mason in Gerald Ford. But of late the crooks have taken over the Presidency and too many in the congress and even the Judicial Branch of government. Corporations have them bought off so they can not represent the people and prone to lies much like big Corporate management. Truth to them is only relative to profits–they get the trillions in bail out while the main stream, middle class and poor right now are suffering. 40+% of California is leaving–they are migrating out including the Hollywood crowd. Hollywood is afraid of the riots and the middle class and poor can’t make home payments and taxes with the pandemic going on.
Just be happy if you have a chunk of land and some survival skills–you may need them.
Certainly if some bully with a shotgun shows up at your front gate screaming profanities your way you know something terrible is going to happen if he comes over that gate. That is why I do not like to see Trump travel 8000 miles to enter the China Sea with all his mighty Army pointing their guns toward the mainland of China especially after threatening the Koreans next door as he did and demonizing the Chinese. You know right now there are plenty of heavy guns and nukes cocked and pointed back at our troops that have no choice but to obey orders from a maniac –that bully commander in chief. All of Europe, Asia, Latin America and so forth see him that way and now that he has stationed war ships in the Persian Gulf area as well and putting sanctions on not only Iran but Venezuela he is not going to get much support should war break out because of his bullying.
He has to know he is only hurting the poor of those nations in his so called attempts to force regime changes in those countries. And these places are thousands of miles away from our own country with plenty suffering at home–thousands already bankrupt in small business and middle class workers as well with the pandemic and protests and riots? The tent cities have gone up with people loosing their homes and in general things are in a mess here to have a Pompeo and his war mongering buddy Bolton threatening the world. What kind of idiots do we have running our government yet surprisingly there are claimed to be 38% of voters supporting this belligerence. But then media and politicians are in bed with the war industries that do not make money unless there is an eminent threat–so Trump is making sure that is happening–the cold war is on if not soon a hot one with his actions. I should say sick man at the helm and his propaganda has a great portion of the population following. But, to be fair Hitler did a much better job than Trump at getting the people to hail him. Internet, information outside the bullshitting main media, and educated people has hurt his ability to have all out support for his stupid actions.
When you have people that have been to Iraq and involved in and witnessed the senseless atrocities then you have some sensibilities. Both Telsie and Ventura are heroes from military action and understand and respect the stupid methods Trump and Biden and associates are presenting. Hopefully we will get somebody in the Presidency that respects other countries instead of demanding they follow the Master’s orders.
These of course are my own opinions–I watch such little of the propaganda put out by main media. I search news out from the You Tube and smaller media not financed by the Corporate giants. So if you support the bully, good–I just hope he does not show up in my front or back yard.